Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Keep on truckin' Di, I know its really hard copping
the heat when what you are actually doing is doing your job really
well...there's lots of us chipping away out here, all over the country (world),
its good to remember by hearing the comments on the list that were are not alone
with our "radical" thoughts. Trying to marginalise ideas which are really strong
and important is another ploy to silence us. Viva la hysteria!
Love suzi
- Original Message -
From:
diane
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 2:56
PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News
8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
but the women are free to say
what they want and demand complete informed consent, and we can help them
navigate that rocky terrain.
Absolutely, the point I tried to make at our
meeting at work last week, but the powers to be and some
colleagues,think that women who don't ask or demand info, should only be
given the standard spiel to gain 'informed' consent, eg for Vit K. I try to
expand on anything and enlighten them to the whole spectrum of choice. I
consider myself to be advocate for all women within my care even if it is only
one antenatal visit or a phone enquiry. When being advocate for those who do
demand, who almost always are well informed, the
establishment seem to think that is OK, but talk about the same stuff to all
women, especially those who are basically un -knowledgeable about anything
related to their bodies and babies, then I am just being radical. I feel these
are the women whobenefit from our advocacy the most. Its a
frustrating situation, to be criticised for empowering women to make these
decisions about themselves. I find it less rewarding advocating for those who
are already empowered to express their wishes.
Di
- Original Message -
From:
suzi and
brett
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:55
PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News
8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I love that you use the word
mysogony Justine,and hi and thankyou to you Penny
too.
I was talking to a fellow midwife at my hosp
about it the other day. Sometimeswe wanted to give the benefit of the
doubt...at worst that the actions ofsome Drs was paternalistic -
wanting to help the poor ladies from their suffering (whileof
course making life litigiously safer for themselves and getting paid
more).
Then i also considered it was just ignorance on
the part of some doctors, unware of the amazing beuaty and awesome
transedence of anything worldly in natural birth and the power that this
gives women.They rarely get to see beautiful birth (which is why i
love working with student doctors in birth and getting in their ears).
Maybe they don't understand how good it can be for women, is it too
spiritual, too unscientific for them to get their head around?
But I am more and more convinced that there is
some phsycological women hate going on as well. And wanting to claim birth
into the male relm. Taking away this amazing opportunity for
empowerment. BIRTH ENVY? Or thinking that most women are
too weak to be able to birth without intervention.Or toostupid
to understand the details so he'll make the desicion for them. Or too smarty
pantsand asking too many questions and taking up too much time so
needs to be put into place with some condeseding remark - if that doesnt
stop her she's too dangerous andneeds to be told to go
elsewhere.
We spoke about a doctor with a very high
c/section rate. If according to him you are too short, too old , too
Asian etc- you are convinced through the course of antenatal "care"
that you can't possibly vaginally birth and an "elective" ("elective" for
whom?) c/s is booked on a day suitable to him. By the time we are meeting
the women - for shave and catheterthey are absolutly convinced they
are doing the right thing. Which puts us in a really difficult possition.
1/2 an hour before surgery is not a great time to talk to women about their
alternative options.One woman -a 40 yr old Philipino primip was
told her baby was breech and needed to have a c/s - but it wasn't breech,
and the Dr knew it. But she was so sold on the idea that she couldnt birth
vaginally that she didnt really mind about where the baby was
lying.THIS WAS NOT HIS CHOICE TO MAKE.
We need to keep working on UNIVERSAL
(mainstream, free, accessable)opportunities for women to find
information and care and reduce the fear. Inthat town right now the
alternative voices women get to hear are only soft squeeks amongst the
bellow of the monolith.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I love that you use the word
mysogony Justine,and hi and thankyou to you Penny
too.
I was talking to a fellow midwife at my hosp about
it the other day. Sometimeswe wanted to give the benefit of the doubt...at
worst that the actions ofsome Drs was paternalistic - wanting to
help the poor ladies from their suffering (whileof course making life
litigiously safer for themselves and getting paid more).
Then i also considered it was just ignorance on the
part of some doctors, unware of the amazing beuaty and awesome transedence of
anything worldly in natural birth and the power that this gives women.They
rarely get to see beautiful birth (which is why i love working with student
doctors in birth and getting in their ears). Maybe they don't understand
how good it can be for women, is it too spiritual, too unscientific for
them to get their head around?
But I am more and more convinced that there is some
phsycological women hate going on as well. And wanting to claim birth into the
male relm. Taking away this amazing opportunity for empowerment. BIRTH
ENVY? Or thinking that most women are too weak to be able to
birth without intervention.Or toostupid to understand the details so
he'll make the desicion for them. Or too smarty pantsand asking too many
questions and taking up too much time so needs to be put into place with some
condeseding remark - if that doesnt stop her she's too dangerous andneeds
to be told to go elsewhere.
We spoke about a doctor with a very high c/section
rate. If according to him you are too short, too old , too Asian etc- you
are convinced through the course of antenatal "care" that you can't possibly
vaginally birth and an "elective" ("elective" for whom?) c/s is booked on a day
suitable to him. By the time we are meeting the women - for shave and
catheterthey are absolutly convinced they are doing the right thing. Which
puts us in a really difficult possition. 1/2 an hour before surgery is not a
great time to talk to women about their alternative options.One woman
-a 40 yr old Philipino primip was told her baby was breech and needed to
have a c/s - but it wasn't breech, and the Dr knew it. But she was so sold on
the idea that she couldnt birth vaginally that she didnt really mind about where
the baby was lying.THIS WAS NOT HIS CHOICE TO MAKE.
We need to keep working on UNIVERSAL (mainstream,
free, accessable)opportunities for women to find information and care and
reduce the fear. Inthat town right now the alternative voices women get to
hear are only soft squeeks amongst the bellow of the monolith.
Maybe we are scared sometimes to speak up in our
workplace if we want to keep our job and dont want to rock the boat, but the
women are free to say what they want and demand complete informed consent,
and we can help them navigate that rocky terrain. And isn't it great when you
get to work with a women who is making those demands, and get to advocate for
them - its very safe territory because we are doing what our midwifery
competancies demand.
Love Suzi
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
But it's not a very safe place for a consumer to be. Rocking the boat as a consumer (especially in labour) it's your body and your baby that you are risking will have a worse outcome for having alienated the only carers you may have available to you. It's anybody's guess for most women whether there is going to be a supportive midwife or Dr to help them if they speak up for what they want/need. When you demand what you want you may be heard by a wonderful midwife who immediately takes up your cause, or you may be dismissed as being too difficult or a c/s waiting to happen because you have too many expectations. Maybe we are scared sometimes to speak up in our workplace if we want to keep our job and dont want to rock the boat, but the women are free to say what they want and demand complete informed consent, and we can help them navigate that rocky terrain. And isn't it great when you get to work with a women who is making those demands, and get to advocate for them - its very safe territory because we are doing what our midwifery competancies demand. Love Suzi -- Jo Bourne Virtual Artists Pty Ltd -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Taking away this amazing opportunity for empowerment. BIRTH ENVY? I LOVE this term Birth Envy. I have a little theory going on in my own mind that this is the very reason that extreme sport is mainly male domain. The rush, the empowerment and the absolute feelings of success can only be obtained by men when placing themselves in extreme situations. There is nothing that naturally occurs in the male makeup that could even remotely take them to the place that women need to go in order to intuitively give birth. No man could fully understand it, in the same way a woman who has never experienced birth first hand can truly understand it. Nothing will EVER match my birth experiences (Ooooh, maybe catching my grandchildren one day) Id love to be pregnant and give birth another 10 times I just dont want anymore kids 4s enough for me! Cheers Jo From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of suzi and brett Sent: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 3:56 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) I love that you use the word mysogony Justine,and hi and thankyou to you Penny too. I was talking to a fellow midwife at my hosp about it the other day. Sometimeswe wanted to give the benefit of the doubt...at worst that the actions ofsome Drs was paternalistic - wanting to help the poor ladies from their suffering (whileof course making life litigiously safer for themselves and getting paid more). Then i also considered it was just ignorance on the part of some doctors, unware of the amazing beuaty and awesome transedence of anything worldly in natural birth and the power that this gives women.They rarely get to see beautiful birth (which is why i love working with student doctors in birth and getting in their ears). Maybe they don't understand how good it can be for women, is it too spiritual, too unscientific for them to get their head around? But I am more and more convinced that there is some phsycological women hate going on as well. And wanting to claim birth into the male relm. Taking away this amazing opportunity for empowerment. BIRTH ENVY? Or thinking that most women are too weak to be able to birth without intervention.Or toostupid to understand the details so he'll make the desicion for them. Or too smarty pantsand asking too many questions and taking up too much time so needs to be put into place with some condeseding remark - if that doesnt stop her she's too dangerous andneeds to be told to go elsewhere. We spoke about a doctor with a very high c/section rate. If according to him you are too short, too old , too Asian etc- you are convinced through the course of antenatal care that you can't possibly vaginally birth and an elective (elective for whom?) c/s is booked on a day suitable to him. By the time we are meeting the women - for shave and catheterthey are absolutly convinced they are doing the right thing. Which puts us in a really difficult possition. 1/2 an hour before surgery is not a great time to talk to women about their alternative options.One woman -a 40 yr old Philipino primip was told her baby was breech and needed to have a c/s - but it wasn't breech, and the Dr knew it. But she was so sold on the idea that she couldnt birth vaginally that she didnt really mind about where the baby was lying.THIS WAS NOT HIS CHOICE TO MAKE. We need to keep working on UNIVERSAL (mainstream, free, accessable)opportunities for women to find information and care and reduce the fear. Inthat town right now the alternative voices women get to hear are only soft squeeks amongst the bellow of the monolith. Maybe we are scared sometimes to speak up in our workplace if we want to keep our job and dont want to rock the boat, but the women are free to say what they want and demand complete informed consent, and we can help them navigate that rocky terrain. And isn't it great when you get to work with a women who is making those demands, and get to advocate for them - its very safe territory because we are doing what our midwifery competancies demand. Love Suzi
RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I can not see how a machine is all that helpful for PIH or APH. Surely one is monitoring the mum and bub's welfare, listening to the FHR at intervals appropriate to each situation, watching for abnormal blood loss, mec liquor, blood pressure, and most importantly listening TO WHAT MUM IS SAYING,and tuning into your own gut instinct. No machine has reduced the perinatal morbidity or mortality rate. Machines have increased intervention, caused needless worry and given false reassurance. We are losing our skills as humans, delegating to machines. Maureen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of sharon Sent: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 11:53 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) hi i think that machines do have their palce in the birthing process if and only if the individual woman has a pre exisiting complaint such as PIH or APH. to moniter the baby is a good thing not to mention the fact that some of these machines ensure that there is a reduced perinatal mortality. Im all for machines that keep both the mother and the baby health in check and not for machines such as the one described which measures cerival dilatation what rot. what about good old fashioned midwifery skills or better still listening to what your woman is telling you. regards sharon - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:49 AM Subject: RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Well, how can we know if there is a medical indication unless the machines have told us? MM so lets keep our interferring hands off until there is a medical indication!! Leanne. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
but the women are free to say
what they want and demand complete informed consent, and we can help them
navigate that rocky terrain.
Absolutely, the point I tried to make at our
meeting at work last week, but the powers to be and some colleagues,think
that women who don't ask or demand info, should only be given the standard spiel
to gain 'informed' consent, eg for Vit K. I try to expand on anything and
enlighten them to the whole spectrum of choice. I consider myself to be advocate
for all women within my care even if it is only one antenatal visit or a phone
enquiry. When being advocate for those who do demand,
who almost always are well informed, the establishment seem to think that is OK,
but talk about the same stuff to all women, especially those who are basically
un -knowledgeable about anything related to their bodies and babies, then I am
just being radical. I feel these are the women whobenefit from our
advocacy the most. Its a frustrating situation, to be criticised for empowering
women to make these decisions about themselves. I find it less rewarding
advocating for those who are already empowered to express their
wishes.
Di
- Original Message -
From:
suzi and
brett
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:55
PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News
8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I love that you use the word
mysogony Justine,and hi and thankyou to you Penny
too.
I was talking to a fellow midwife at my hosp
about it the other day. Sometimeswe wanted to give the benefit of the
doubt...at worst that the actions ofsome Drs was paternalistic -
wanting to help the poor ladies from their suffering (whileof
course making life litigiously safer for themselves and getting paid
more).
Then i also considered it was just ignorance on
the part of some doctors, unware of the amazing beuaty and awesome transedence
of anything worldly in natural birth and the power that this gives
women.They rarely get to see beautiful birth (which is why i love
working with student doctors in birth and getting in their ears). Maybe
they don't understand how good it can be for women, is it too
spiritual, too unscientific for them to get their head around?
But I am more and more convinced that there is
some phsycological women hate going on as well. And wanting to claim birth
into the male relm. Taking away this amazing opportunity for
empowerment. BIRTH ENVY? Or thinking that most women are too
weak to be able to birth without intervention.Or toostupid to
understand the details so he'll make the desicion for them. Or too smarty
pantsand asking too many questions and taking up too much time so needs
to be put into place with some condeseding remark - if that doesnt stop her
she's too dangerous andneeds to be told to go elsewhere.
We spoke about a doctor with a very high
c/section rate. If according to him you are too short, too old , too
Asian etc- you are convinced through the course of antenatal "care" that
you can't possibly vaginally birth and an "elective" ("elective" for whom?)
c/s is booked on a day suitable to him. By the time we are meeting the women -
for shave and catheterthey are absolutly convinced they are doing the
right thing. Which puts us in a really difficult possition. 1/2 an hour before
surgery is not a great time to talk to women about their alternative
options.One woman -a 40 yr old Philipino primip was told her baby
was breech and needed to have a c/s - but it wasn't breech, and the Dr knew
it. But she was so sold on the idea that she couldnt birth vaginally that she
didnt really mind about where the baby was lying.THIS WAS NOT HIS CHOICE
TO MAKE.
We need to keep working on UNIVERSAL (mainstream,
free, accessable)opportunities for women to find information and care
and reduce the fear. Inthat town right now the alternative voices women
get to hear are only soft squeeks amongst the bellow of the monolith.
Maybe we are scared sometimes to speak up in our
workplace if we want to keep our job and dont want to rock the boat, but
the women are free to say what they want and demand complete informed
consent, and we can help them navigate that rocky terrain. And isn't it great
when you get to work with a women who is making those demands, and get to
advocate for them - its very safe territory because we are doing what our
midwifery competancies demand.
Love Suzi
RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I was thinking the same today, Abby. The list seems to have changed. It wasn't all that long ago we would have been discussing how not to give hepb, but just last week the topic was when to give it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 29 May 2006 5:59 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Hi, I do find this totally horrifying, but not any more so than most the stuff OBs and midwives use on a regular basis already in hospitals. In recent times it seems that not many on the Ozmid list raise their voices in response to the ways, techniques and instruments used in the abuse of women and their rights in childbirth. Sort of speaks of the whole birthing scene in this country, midwives in hospitals too scared to speak out against things that fellow care providers are doing to birthing women. To be perfectly honest about this new contraption, it seems way less of an atroscity than cutting a womans yoni open while she lays on a back with a bunch of people standing by! Love Abby ~ who, can't believe the horrible things she reads and hears of the way women are treated in our hospitals while trying to birth their baby's!! Alesa Koziol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Andrea point taken -I was mindful of the copyright requests however..I am sending this to the list again. Originally posted on Friday with no feedback. Are there no others in the oz community horrified by the idea of this devise? Do we not have enough technology invading normal birth already? A timely reminder perhaps in light of the current thread on CTG is that they too were introduced widely with little research to validate their wide spread value yet have been grasped by the legal community as an all seeing tool - a tool which now governs a lot of 'normal' or 'routine' clinical practice. My thoughts Alesa Alesa Koziol Clinical Midwifery Educator Melbourne - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Hi Alesa, Perhaps next time, just cut and paste the relevant section - I find these loo...ong bulletins impossible to wade through! However, I know Debby well and I've done workshops at her hospital. They have the only birth centre in Israel and are a terrific bunch of strong women and midwifery advocates. I am glad she has raised this issue. The thought of this technology is truly awful and I am sure that women will not want to use it if they are fully informed. Reminds me of a gadget that was tested at one of the UK's biggest midwifery hospitals a few years ago: it was a huge belt that was wrapped around the woman's tummy at the start of second stage and then inflated to push the baby down if the woman couldn't push due to having an epidural. You can imagine how the midwives felt about having to be part of the trials. As far as I know, this particular gadget didn't make it to the manufacturing stage, so perhaps this one that Debby speaks of won't either. Who dreams up these ideas? Dare I say it - men, probably! Regards, Andrea MIDWIFERY TODAY E-NEWS A publication of Midwifery Today, Inc. Volume 8, Issue 11, May 24, 2006 Postdates Pregnancies ~~ A high tech company called Barnev (www.barnev.co.il/) is currently manufacturing a product called a computerized labor monitoring system. This product works by placing two clips with electrodes on a laboring woman's cervix and a scalp electrode on the fetus and using ultrasound waves to measure cervical dilation and height (descent) of the fetal head. I am aware of this product because of clinical trials were held at the hospital with which I am affiliated. In spite of the midwives' opposition to using this mechanical device on women, we were not able to totally block its use (although some changes were made in the informed consent, and many women did not agree to participate due to midwives' explaining to them what was involved). The trials were moved to other hospitals where the midwives were not as vocal in their opposition, and now the company is promoting use in Europe and the US. I understand that they have received or will be receiving Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. The product is being promoted as a means to assess women's progress in labor without a manual vaginal examination. I believe that this product takes advantage of and potentially harms women and their babies in labor, all for the purpose of economically profiting a biotech company. I believe that steps need to be taken at a higher level regarding the ethical considerations. How do E-News readers suggest that I
RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I think there is a witch hunt beginning quietly in the background and midwives are being a bit reticent about speaking out. Look behind you, the might be a Cassius standing there with a knife. m I was thinking the same today, Abby. The list seems to have changed. It wasn't all that long ago we would have been discussing how not to give hepb, but just last week the topic was when to give it. In recent times it seems that not many on the Ozmid list raise their voices in response to the ways, techniques and instruments used in the abuse of women and their rights in childbirth. Sort of speaks of the whole birthing scene in this country, midwives in hospitals too scared to speak out against things that fellow care providers are doing to birthing women. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Signals from disposable sensors located on the maternal cervix and fetal head objectifies the examination process Is there actually a woman and a baby involved in this birth? M , -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Abby for President I love your work! J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I for one am sick and tired of all the artificial machines, gadgets and procedures that are dreamed-up as some magical method to improve on normal birth. The birthing process is designed to work perfectly most of the the time so lets keep our interferring hands off until there is a medical indication!! Leanne. Leanne Wynne Midwife in charge of Women's Business Mildura Aboriginal Health Service Mob 0418 371862 From: Ken Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:12:00 +1000 I was thinking the same today, Abby. The list seems to have changed. It wasn't all that long ago we would have been discussing how not to give hepb, but just last week the topic was when to give it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 29 May 2006 5:59 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Hi, I do find this totally horrifying, but not any more so than most the stuff OBs and midwives use on a regular basis already in hospitals. In recent times it seems that not many on the Ozmid list raise their voices in response to the ways, techniques and instruments used in the abuse of women and their rights in childbirth. Sort of speaks of the whole birthing scene in this country, midwives in hospitals too scared to speak out against things that fellow care providers are doing to birthing women. To be perfectly honest about this new contraption, it seems way less of an atroscity than cutting a womans yoni open while she lays on a back with a bunch of people standing by! Love Abby ~ who, can't believe the horrible things she reads and hears of the way women are treated in our hospitals while trying to birth their baby's!! Alesa Koziol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Andrea point taken -I was mindful of the copyright requests however..I am sending this to the list again. Originally posted on Friday with no feedback. Are there no others in the oz community horrified by the idea of this devise? Do we not have enough technology invading normal birth already? A timely reminder perhaps in light of the current thread on CTG is that they too were introduced widely with little research to validate their wide spread value yet have been grasped by the legal community as an all seeing tool - a tool which now governs a lot of 'normal' or 'routine' clinical practice. My thoughts Alesa Alesa Koziol Clinical Midwifery Educator Melbourne - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Hi Alesa, Perhaps next time, just cut and paste the relevant section - I find these loo...ong bulletins impossible to wade through! However, I know Debby well and I've done workshops at her hospital. They have the only birth centre in Israel and are a terrific bunch of strong women and midwifery advocates. I am glad she has raised this issue. The thought of this technology is truly awful and I am sure that women will not want to use it if they are fully informed. Reminds me of a gadget that was tested at one of the UK's biggest midwifery hospitals a few years ago: it was a huge belt that was wrapped around the woman's tummy at the start of second stage and then inflated to push the baby down if the woman couldn't push due to having an epidural. You can imagine how the midwives felt about having to be part of the trials. As far as I know, this particular gadget didn't make it to the manufacturing stage, so perhaps this one that Debby speaks of won't either. Who dreams up these ideas? Dare I say it - men, probably! Regards, Andrea MIDWIFERY TODAY E-NEWS A publication of Midwifery Today, Inc. Volume 8, Issue 11, May 24, 2006 Postdates Pregnancies ~~ A high tech company called Barnev (www.barnev.co.il/) is currently manufacturing a product called a computerized labor monitoring system. This product works by placing two clips with electrodes on a laboring woman's cervix and a scalp electrode on the fetus and using ultrasound waves to measure cervical dilation and height (descent) of the fetal head. I am aware of this product because of clinical trials were held at the hospital with which I am affiliated. In spite of the midwives' opposition to using this mechanical device on women, we were not able to totally block its use (although some changes were made in the informed consent, and many women did not agree to participate due to midwives' explaining to them what was involved). The trials were moved
RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Well, how can we know if there is a medical indication unless the machines have told us? MM so lets keep our interferring hands off until there is a medical indication!! Leanne. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
hi i think that machines do have their palce in the birthing process if and only if the individual woman has a pre exisiting complaint such as PIH or APH. to moniter the baby is a good thing not to mention the fact that some of these machines ensure that there is a reduced perinatal mortality. Im all for machines that keep both the mother and the baby health in check and not for machines such as the one described which measures cerival dilatation what rot. what about good old fashioned midwifery skills or better still listening to what your woman is telling you. regards sharon - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:49 AM Subject: RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Well, how can we know if there is a medical indication unless the machines have told us? MM so lets keep our interferring hands off until there is a medical indication!! Leanne. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
I think a lot these days about our attachment to each and every baby and the life of that baby at any cost. I for one don't think that machines have a place in my personal birthing life for whatever reason and object to others feeling that they might. We all have thoughts about how we think birth should be supported and what levels of intervention are right or wrong but ultimately none of this should change the power of the decisions made by well-informed women and the supremacy of those decisions over and above those of any health care provider. I suppose the problem is that most women aren't well-informed, take little responsibility for their health, and the outcomes of their pregnancy and birthing indeed it seems that many women don't even want to be informed. This is the most soul-destroying fact in the whole picture. As the rate of induction at my local hospital soars and the myth that birth is an unbearable experience is perpetuated I keep chipping away doing my little bit Where have we got to in this world when a natural bodily function is undoable for most women??? Just some of my thoughts Thanks to all those women out their who believe in women's bodies and the value of both the dark and the light in our lives as I do, Penny From: sharon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) hi i think that machines do have their palce in the birthing process if and only if the individual woman has a pre exisiting complaint such as PIH or APH. to moniter the baby is a good thing not to mention the fact that some of these machines ensure that there is a reduced perinatal mortality. Im all for machines that keep both the mother and the baby health in check and not for machines such as the one described which measures cerival dilatation what rot. what about good old fashioned midwifery skills or better still listening to what your woman is telling you. regards sharon - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:49 AM Subject: RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Well, how can we know if there is a medical indication unless the machines have told us? MM so lets keep our interferring hands off until there is a medical indication!! Leanne. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Beautifully put Penny! Yes where are we when the most important physical and spiritual event is taken away from /handed over by women? I laugh when I hear that Feminism has achieved so much. To me the very essence of womanhood is controlled by at best a very organised patriarchy and at worst totally controlling mysogyny. There's a book in that, but how to make it palatable for women to read!! Ah perhaps that's the 64 million dollar question. I also pondered today if it's all about choice then why is the natural choice denigrated so much (yes due to the controlling interest I know!) But publicly we need to ask that question and KEEP informing anyone we can that until all choice is respected and funded then we cannot say women have choice or determine that women are really making a choice! JC -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies(May 24, 2006)
I'm nodding vigorously, Penny and Justine! - Original Message - From: Justine Caines [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: OzMid List ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies(May 24, 2006) Beautifully put Penny! Yes where are we when the most important physical and spiritual event is taken away from /handed over by women? I laugh when I hear that Feminism has achieved so much. To me the very essence of womanhood is controlled by at best a very organised patriarchy and at worst totally controlling mysogyny. There's a book in that, but how to make it palatable for women to read!! Ah perhaps that's the 64 million dollar question. I also pondered today if it's all about choice then why is the natural choice denigrated so much (yes due to the controlling interest I know!) But publicly we need to ask that question and KEEP informing anyone we can that until all choice is respected and funded then we cannot say women have choice or determine that women are really making a choice! JC -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Abby for President I love your work! J LOL! Thanks Janet. About 10 years ago my ambition was to become Australias first female prime minister. Things have changed since then, I still want to change things but know it is easier done in the background. Love Abby -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Hi Alesa, I don't recall seeing your initial post, which was very interesting. I wonder how much these machines would cost, and who they would be used upon? I can't see that they could be a main stream thing We have several CTGs on our unit, but they are only used on supposed 'high risk' women. These machines would seem to have even more limited use if any. I suppose it would depend on how the company 'sold' them to the medical profession and hospital administrators. I think the final deciding point would be the women. As Debby said in her initial email, educating women is vital in such situations, and letting them know that they have a choice. Handing this information to consumer groups if a hospital is planning their introduction might also be useful. It is good to be informed so that these new technologies don't catch us out by being in place before we can do anything about it. Thanks for the info, Nicole Carver. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Hi, I do find this totally horrifying, but not any more so than most the stuff OBs and midwives use on a regular basis already in hospitals. In recent times it seems that not many on the Ozmid list raise their voices in response to the ways, techniques and instruments used in the abuse of women and their rights in childbirth. Sort of speaks of the whole birthing scene in this country, midwives in hospitals too scared to speak out against things that fellow care providers are doing to birthing women. To be perfectly honest about this new contraption, it seems way less of an atroscity than cutting a womans yoni open while she lays on a back with a bunch of people standing by! Love Abby ~ who, can't believe the horrible things she reads and hears of the way women are treated in our hospitals while trying to birth their baby's!! Alesa Koziol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Andrea point taken -I was mindful of the copyright requests however..I am sending this to the list again. Originally posted on Friday with no feedback. Are there no others in the oz community horrified by the idea of this devise? Do we not have enough technology invading normal birth already? A timely reminder perhaps in light of the current thread on CTG is that they too were introduced widely with little research to validate their wide spread value yet have been grasped by the legal community as an all seeing tool - a tool which now governs a lot of 'normal' or 'routine' clinical practice. My thoughts Alesa Alesa Koziol Clinical Midwifery Educator Melbourne - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Hi Alesa, Perhaps next time, just cut and paste the relevant section - I find these loo...ong bulletins impossible to wade through! However, I know Debby well and I've done workshops at her hospital. They have the only birth centre in Israel and are a terrific bunch of strong women and midwifery advocates. I am glad she has raised this issue. The thought of this technology is truly awful and I am sure that women will not want to use it if they are fully informed. Reminds me of a gadget that was tested at one of the UK's biggest midwifery hospitals a few years ago: it was a huge belt that was wrapped around the woman's tummy at the start of second stage and then inflated to push the baby down if the woman couldn't push due to having an epidural. You can imagine how the midwives felt about having to be part of the trials. As far as I know, this particular gadget didn't make it to the manufacturing stage, so perhaps this one that Debby speaks of won't either. Who dreams up these ideas? Dare I say it - men, probably! Regards, Andrea MIDWIFERY TODAY E-NEWS A publication of Midwifery Today, Inc. Volume 8, Issue 11, May 24, 2006 Postdates Pregnancies ~~ A high tech company called Barnev (www.barnev.co.il/) is currently manufacturing a product called a computerized labor monitoring system. This product works by placing two clips with electrodes on a laboring woman's cervix and a scalp electrode on the fetus and using ultrasound waves to measure cervical dilation and height (descent) of the fetal head. I am aware of this product because of clinical trials were held at the hospital with which I am affiliated. In spite of the midwives' opposition to using this mechanical device on women, we were not able to totally block its use (although some changes were made in the informed consent, and many women did not agree to participate due to midwives' explaining to them what was involved). The trials were moved to other hospitals where the midwives were not as vocal in their opposition, and now the company is promoting use in Europe and the US. I understand that they have received or will be receiving Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. The product is being promoted as a means to assess women's progress in labor without a manual vaginal examination. I believe that this product takes advantage of and potentially harms women and their babies in labor, all for the purpose of economically profiting a biotech company. I believe that steps need to be taken at a higher level regarding the ethical considerations. How do E-News readers suggest that I carry on from here? Can you offer any support/ideas? I feel that this issue is not only within the midwifery realm, but takes advantage of women's rights and of women's bodies for research purposes under the guise of medical treatment. You can contact me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debby Gedal-Beer, CNM, MSc. Coordinator of Women's Health and Midwifery Education Sheba Academic School of Nursing Tel Hashomer
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Originally posted on Friday with no feedback. Are there no others in the oz community horrified by the idea of this devise? Do we not have enough technology invading normal birth already? A timely reminder perhaps in light of the current thread on CTG is that they too were introduced widely with little research to validate their wide spread value yet have been grasped by the legal community as an all seeing tool - a tool which now governs a lot of 'normal' or 'routine' clinical practice. My thoughts Alesa, I'm constantly horrified by what passes for care in birth and this crap is no different. We have plenty of birth professionals in Australia who don't think critically about these issues and who don't give a toss. The research supporting true midwifery, not the obstetrically led version of it, is wellknown and yet little changes around here. There's also been no mention on ozmid of the loss of hb to women in Brisbane and I find those attacks on women's human rights pretty astounding. J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Hi Andrea point taken -I was mindful of the copyright requests however..I am sending this to the list again. Originally posted on Friday with no feedback. Are there no others in the oz community horrified by the idea of this devise? Do we not have enough technology invading normal birth already? A timely reminder perhaps in light of the current thread on CTG is that they too were introduced widely with little research to validate their wide spread value yet have been grasped by the legal community as an all seeing tool - a tool which now governs a lot of 'normal' or 'routine' clinical practice. My thoughts Alesa Alesa Koziol Clinical Midwifery Educator Melbourne - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) Hi Alesa, Perhaps next time, just cut and paste the relevant section - I find these loo...ong bulletins impossible to wade through! However, I know Debby well and I've done workshops at her hospital. They have the only birth centre in Israel and are a terrific bunch of strong women and midwifery advocates. I am glad she has raised this issue. The thought of this technology is truly awful and I am sure that women will not want to use it if they are fully informed. Reminds me of a gadget that was tested at one of the UK's biggest midwifery hospitals a few years ago: it was a huge belt that was wrapped around the woman's tummy at the start of second stage and then inflated to push the baby down if the woman couldn't push due to having an epidural. You can imagine how the midwives felt about having to be part of the trials. As far as I know, this particular gadget didn't make it to the manufacturing stage, so perhaps this one that Debby speaks of won't either. Who dreams up these ideas? Dare I say it - men, probably! Regards, Andrea MIDWIFERY TODAY E-NEWS A publication of Midwifery Today, Inc. Volume 8, Issue 11, May 24, 2006 Postdates Pregnancies ~~ A high tech company called Barnev (www.barnev.co.il/) is currently manufacturing a product called a computerized labor monitoring system. This product works by placing two clips with electrodes on a laboring woman's cervix and a scalp electrode on the fetus and using ultrasound waves to measure cervical dilation and height (descent) of the fetal head. I am aware of this product because of clinical trials were held at the hospital with which I am affiliated. In spite of the midwives' opposition to using this mechanical device on women, we were not able to totally block its use (although some changes were made in the informed consent, and many women did not agree to participate due to midwives' explaining to them what was involved). The trials were moved to other hospitals where the midwives were not as vocal in their opposition, and now the company is promoting use in Europe and the US. I understand that they have received or will be receiving Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. The product is being promoted as a means to assess women's progress in labor without a manual vaginal examination. I believe that this product takes advantage of and potentially harms women and their babies in labor, all for the purpose of economically profiting a biotech company. I believe that steps need to be taken at a higher level regarding the ethical considerations. How do E-News readers suggest that I carry on from here? Can you offer any support/ideas? I feel that this issue is not only within the midwifery realm, but takes advantage of women's rights and of women's bodies for research purposes under the guise of medical treatment. You can contact me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debby Gedal-Beer, CNM, MSc. Coordinator of Women's Health and Midwifery Education Sheba Academic School of Nursing Tel Hashomer, Israel -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006)
Hi Alesa, Perhaps next time, just cut and paste the relevant section - I find these loo...ong bulletins impossible to wade through! However, I know Debby well and I've done workshops at her hospital. They have the only birth centre in Israel and are a terrific bunch of strong women and midwifery advocates. I am glad she has raised this issue. The thought of this technology is truly awful and I am sure that women will not want to use it if they are fully informed. Reminds me of a gadget that was tested at one of the UK's biggest midwifery hospitals a few years ago: it was a huge belt that was wrapped around the woman's tummy at the start of second stage and then inflated to push the baby down if the woman couldn't push due to having an epidural. You can imagine how the midwives felt about having to be part of the trials. As far as I know, this particular gadget didn't make it to the manufacturing stage, so perhaps this one that Debby speaks of won't either. Who dreams up these ideas? Dare I say it - men, probably! Regards, Andrea At 11:17 AM 26/05/2006, you wrote: Apologies for the long post and even more apologies if this 'FW:' infringes on normal list etiquette,but I am interested in what others think of the topic raised by Debby Gedal-Beer in the 'feedback' section. Personally I beleive this is something that is of interest to the globe which is my rationale for posting this copy of E Midwifery Today here Cheers Alesa - Original Message - From: Midwifery Today [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: E-News Subscriber Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: E-News 8:11 - Postdates Pregnancies (May 24, 2006) MIDWIFERY TODAY E-NEWS A publication of Midwifery Today, Inc. Volume 8, Issue 11, May 24, 2006 Postdates Pregnancies ~~ Feedback ~~ A high tech company called Barnev (www.barnev.co.il/) is currently manufacturing a product called a computerized labor monitoring system. This product works by placing two clips with electrodes on a laboring woman's cervix and a scalp electrode on the fetus and using ultrasound waves to measure cervical dilation and height (descent) of the fetal head. I am aware of this product because of clinical trials were held at the hospital with which I am affiliated. In spite of the midwives' opposition to using this mechanical device on women, we were not able to totally block its use (although some changes were made in the informed consent, and many women did not agree to participate due to midwives' explaining to them what was involved). The trials were moved to other hospitals where the midwives were not as vocal in their opposition, and now the company is promoting use in Europe and the US. I understand that they have received or will be receiving Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. The product is being promoted as a means to assess women's progress in labor without a manual vaginal examination. I believe that this product takes advantage of and potentially harms women and their babies in labor, all for the purpose of economically profiting a biotech company. I believe that steps need to be taken at a higher level regarding the ethical considerations. How do E-News readers suggest that I carry on from here? Can you offer any support/ideas? I feel that this issue is not only within the midwifery realm, but takes advantage of women's rights and of women's bodies for research purposes under the guise of medical treatment. You can contact me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debby Gedal-Beer, CNM, MSc. Coordinator of Women's Health and Midwifery Education Sheba Academic School of Nursing Tel Hashomer, Israel -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
