Re: Question about Palm Apps
A weekly posting informing people of the location of the FAQ/Knowledge Base might be useful. -- -Richard M. Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 186,000 mi/sec: not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Nesse, Rustin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]... There is no FAQ for this group, like read the FAQ first, then ask! Yeah, there is, but lots of people don't read the list or knowledge base first. I think some people just impulsively ask...unless their net server blocks urls, or the Knowledge Base is down. Since the memory structure and the whole you lose your app when the power runs out thing really confuses people, it gets impulsively asked every three weeks. =) -Rus -- For information on using the ACCESS Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.access-company.com/developers/forums/
Re: Question about Palm Apps
It won't take 3 months. The memory can get trashed in as little as 2 minutes without batteries. After that, you can kiss anything not in ROM goodbye. -- For information on using the ACCESS Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.access-company.com/developers/forums/
Re: Question about Palm Apps
A weekly posting informing people of the location of the FAQ/Knowledge Base might be useful. -- -Richard M. Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 186,000 mi/sec: not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Nesse, Rustin wrote in message 18210@palm-dev-forum... There is no FAQ for this group, like read the FAQ first, then ask! Yeah, there is, but lots of people don't read the list or knowledge base first. I think some people just impulsively ask...unless their net server blocks urls, or the Knowledge Base is down. Since the memory structure and the whole "you lose your app when the power runs out" thing really confuses people, it gets impulsively asked every three weeks. =) -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
Re: Question about Palm Apps
"Richard Hartman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:18312@palm-dev-forum... A weekly posting informing people of the location of the FAQ/Knowledge Base might be useful. Posting do go up here letting people know about new knowledge base entries on a regular basis... rather than a special post, lets see more new entries and the messages that go with them! -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
Question about Palm Apps
What happens if the Palm completely loses power (no batteries at all)? (Like if it was left on a shelf for 3 monthes without the AAA batteries). Obviously it will loose the records for the applications but will it lose third party applications as well? I think apps will be lost (other than the built in ones) but there is Flash ROM as part of the system. Is there anyway a Developer can access this Flash ROM to make persistant apps? -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
Yes. Check out www.trgpro.com . If the Palm's batteries are dead, there's no current to be able to preserve the state of the Flash RAM, so your apps get hosed. Otherwise, the Flash ROM is preserved and your preferences are set back to the factory prefs. -Rus -Original Message- From: Johnson, Aaron B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 10:47 AM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: Question about Palm Apps What happens if the Palm completely loses power (no batteries at all)? (Like if it was left on a shelf for 3 monthes without the AAA batteries). Obviously it will loose the records for the applications but will it lose third party applications as well? I think apps will be lost (other than the built in ones) but there is Flash ROM as part of the system. Is there anyway a Developer can access this Flash ROM to make persistant apps? -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
Re: Question about Palm Apps
It won't take 3 months. The memory can get trashed in as little as 2 minutes without batteries. After that, you can kiss anything not in ROM goodbye. -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
Well I do not know everthing about this beast yet! (Right Rus?) but if the mem is called FLASH, then it will always hold the contents even on lose of battery, but if the memory is SRAM, or DRAM then yes its a goner! Richard. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Nesse, Rustin Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 2:23 PM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: RE: Question about Palm Apps Yes. Check out www.trgpro.com . If the Palm's batteries are dead, there's no current to be able to preserve the state of the Flash RAM, so your apps get hosed. Otherwise, the Flash ROM is preserved and your preferences are set back to the factory prefs. -Rus -Original Message- From: Johnson, Aaron B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 10:47 AM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: Question about Palm Apps What happens if the Palm completely loses power (no batteries at all)? (Like if it was left on a shelf for 3 monthes without the AAA batteries). Obviously it will loose the records for the applications but will it lose third party applications as well? I think apps will be lost (other than the built in ones) but there is Flash ROM as part of the system. Is there anyway a Developer can access this Flash ROM to make persistant apps? -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
Well, they call it Flash RAM. I'm not sure why...but it requires a tiny charge to retain the data stored on it (unlike the flash ROM), so I think it's called Flash RAM because even if you power off the unit, it keeps the data (Even though the unit isn't really completely powered down unless the battery(ies) are removed. Basically, though, it's like a memory card or cartridge. Except that data can be lost when it isn't kept a consistant minimal charge. I'm not a hardware guy, so I don't know the specifics, but I know there are specifications out there somewhere for the Flash RAM cards. (I think there are some online on either PalmOS.com or Motorola, it's been awhile since I looked) -Rus -Original Message- From: Richard Sloan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:51 AM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: RE: Question about Palm Apps Well I do not know everthing about this beast yet! (Right Rus?) but if the mem is called FLASH, then it will always hold the contents even on lose of battery, but if the memory is SRAM, or DRAM then yes its a goner! Richard. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Nesse, Rustin Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 2:23 PM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: RE: Question about Palm Apps Yes. Check out www.trgpro.com . If the Palm's batteries are dead, there's no current to be able to preserve the state of the Flash RAM, so your apps get hosed. Otherwise, the Flash ROM is preserved and your preferences are set back to the factory prefs. -Rus -Original Message- From: Johnson, Aaron B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 10:47 AM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: Question about Palm Apps What happens if the Palm completely loses power (no batteries at all)? (Like if it was left on a shelf for 3 monthes without the AAA batteries). Obviously it will loose the records for the applications but will it lose third party applications as well? I think apps will be lost (other than the built in ones) but there is Flash ROM as part of the system. Is there anyway a Developer can access this Flash ROM to make persistant apps? -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Nesse, Rustin wrote: Yes. Check out www.trgpro.com . If the Palm's batteries are dead, there's no current to be able to preserve the state of the Flash RAM, so your apps get hosed. Otherwise, the Flash ROM is preserved and your preferences are set back to the factory prefs. -Rus Please don't confuse people with inaccurate terminology. All Palm devices have regular, normal, vanilla RAM. This requires power to maintain the memory. All data and 3rd party apps are stored there. Some Palm devices have Flash RAM, in which the OS and builtin apps are stored. It is possible to use a tool like TRGpro to write to this memory. This memory does not require power to maintain itself. The devices that don't have Flash RAM have a Mask ROM. This is permanant, physically unalterable memory. No power is needed because there is a physical imprint of the programs molded into the ROM die itself. There is no such thing as "Flash ROM", afaik. -- Brian Mathis Direct Edge http://www.directedge.com -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
Sorry, I got into the habit of calling it Flash...I believe others had referred to it as such awhile back (which is why I don't know why some people had called it that, besides getting the Flash RAM and ordinary RAM cards confused...I seem to remember this exact thread, oddly enough)...I always just called them RAM cards prior to that. But the concept is there: You need current to keep the data on the RAM card. If you can't, you can try a Flashing utility if you have the Flash capability. And yes, TRGPro doesn't work with unflashable Palms. However, it's the only thing (besides JackFlash and a couple other apps in Beta or released only to developers registered with some of the manufacturers' developer programs) that will keep your app (besides backing it up, but that's another story altogether) on the unit. Personally, though, I like the option of deleting my software if I don't want it...its useful in vertical industries and in retail/PoS systems, though. Anyway, it's stated on TRGPro's website that some Palms don't have Flash memory...if you know your Palm is unflashable and you try to flash it anyway...that's your problem. ;) -Rus -Original Message- From: Brian Mathis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:59 AM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: RE: Question about Palm Apps On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Nesse, Rustin wrote: Yes. Check out www.trgpro.com . If the Palm's batteries are dead, there's no current to be able to preserve the state of the Flash RAM, so your apps get hosed. Otherwise, the Flash ROM is preserved and your preferences are set back to the factory prefs. -Rus Please don't confuse people with inaccurate terminology. All Palm devices have regular, normal, vanilla RAM. This requires power to maintain the memory. All data and 3rd party apps are stored there. Some Palm devices have Flash RAM, in which the OS and builtin apps are stored. It is possible to use a tool like TRGpro to write to this memory. This memory does not require power to maintain itself. The devices that don't have Flash RAM have a Mask ROM. This is permanant, physically unalterable memory. No power is needed because there is a physical imprint of the programs molded into the ROM die itself. There is no such thing as "Flash ROM", afaik. -- Brian Mathis Direct Edge http://www.directedge.com -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
Sorry, I got into the habit of calling it Flash...I believe others had referred to it as such awhile back (which is why I don't know why some people had called it that, besides getting the Flash RAM and Dang it Brian, now I'm all befuddled. It became an annoying habit to call ALL Palm ram Flash RAM. Hereforward, when mentioning this stuff in passing, everyone should just use these three terms: RAM: Needs battery current to retain data Flash: (not included in some units) Doesn't need current to retain data: keeps a static image of the pims and databases loaded into it. ROM: Static hardware data. The confusion, I think, arises from the capability of computers and some other electronic devices to have software executable "ROM" updates. People begin to get these confused with the capability to update Flash memory, and thus, it becomes Flash ROM to us. Then someone comes along talking about Flash RAM, and bingo, in the back of your mind you start calling both the RAM and ROM Flash. No one wants a 2 dollar Psych lecture, however... =) -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
Okay, here's my absolute LAST post on this annoying and inane subject. http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/hardware/compare.html ROM comes in two flavors, Flashable ROM and Mask ROM. Brian is now content. =) -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Nesse, Rustin wrote: [..] The confusion, I think, arises from the capability of computers and some other electronic devices to have software executable "ROM" updates. People begin to get these confused with the capability to update Flash memory, and thus, it becomes Flash ROM to us. Then someone comes along talking about Flash RAM, and bingo, in the back of your mind you start calling both the RAM and ROM Flash. -Rus In those cases, the companies referring to "software executable ROM updates" are really updating Flash RAM (or possibly an EEPROM?). They just call it ROM so people don't confuse it with real useable RAM on a machine. AFAIK- In the case of Palm system patches however, the patches live in RAM, and override the syscall (trap). This is how they can update ROM based Palms with system patches (or, in reality, provide the illusion that ROM has been updated). -- Brian Mathis Direct Edge http://www.directedge.com -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
updates" are really updating Flash RAM (or possibly an EEPROM?). I believe they may be EEPROMs, one of our repair guys and I took apart an out of warranty Symbol SPT 1500, and I think I saw some EEPROMs in there. They just call it ROM so people don't confuse it with real useable RAM on a machine. And its amazing how by avoiding confusion they've managed to confuse everyone. =) The only frustrating thing is that this subject comes up every 3 weeks, everyone posts about a million times, and then it just gets regurgitated three weeks later. =( -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
I believe they may be EEPROMs, one of our repair guys and I took apart an out of warranty Symbol SPT 1500, and I think I saw some EEPROMs in there. I just checked one, and I didn't see any this time. Must have been drinking too much coffee last time. =) -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
There is no FAQ for this group, like read the FAQ first, then ask! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Nesse, Rustin Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 4:38 PM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: RE: Question about Palm Apps updates" are really updating Flash RAM (or possibly an EEPROM?). I believe they may be EEPROMs, one of our repair guys and I took apart an out of warranty Symbol SPT 1500, and I think I saw some EEPROMs in there. They just call it ROM so people don't confuse it with real useable RAM on a machine. And its amazing how by avoiding confusion they've managed to confuse everyone. =) The only frustrating thing is that this subject comes up every 3 weeks, everyone posts about a million times, and then it just gets regurgitated three weeks later. =( -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
There is no FAQ for this group, like read the FAQ first, then ask! Yeah, there is, but lots of people don't read the list or knowledge base first. I think some people just impulsively ask...unless their net server blocks urls, or the Knowledge Base is down. Since the memory structure and the whole "you lose your app when the power runs out" thing really confuses people, it gets impulsively asked every three weeks. =) -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
RE: Question about Palm Apps
Once I know more I will post my findings! I am a hardware designer and will be able to figure it all out once I get a unit to play with! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Nesse, Rustin Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 5:06 PM To: Palm Developer Forum Subject: RE: Question about Palm Apps There is no FAQ for this group, like read the FAQ first, then ask! Yeah, there is, but lots of people don't read the list or knowledge base first. I think some people just impulsively ask...unless their net server blocks urls, or the Knowledge Base is down. Since the memory structure and the whole "you lose your app when the power runs out" thing really confuses people, it gets impulsively asked every three weeks. =) -Rus -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/ -- For information on using the Palm Developer Forums, or to unsubscribe, please see http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/support/forums/
