Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Thanks for your email, I always find it interesting to hear people's
perspectives. I'm happy to see more people getting involved in development, so
that means we can have more things like zooming interfaces. :-) Tcl/Tk can do
zooming just fine, by the way ;-)
.hc
On Feb 20, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Scott R. Looney wrote:
> well, speaking as a new member of the list and a very budding PD user coming
> from last using Max 5.1 i am happy with any incremental steps making the
> interface more usable. i do realize that usability can be a subjective term,
> but even simply paving the way for more options is an excellent start.
>
> i don't believe i saw HC attempting to claim sole credit for the work he does
> every day on creating a more balanced release of on top of others hard work.
> his whole focus to me seems to be how to improve things and move PD forward
> both in terms of stability and usability/flexibility.
>
> personally i have some gripes - i'm not enthusiastic about the look of Tcl/Tk
> apps in general - they are too blocky with no apparent ability for alpha
> channeling in the gui. i think Juce comes closer for me. i would love the
> ability to zoom in on patches. i use this feature all the time when in Max
> 5.1. i think not being able to pass the { and } characters without a somewhat
> convoluted workaround REALLY holds PD back from interacting with Javascript
> or most scripting languages in a way friendly a newbie.
>
> in spite of all that, i see real progress behind the scenes with PD-extended,
> and i have no doubt that it will continue to move in a direction that will
> offer more flexibility and usability down the road using the input from as
> many users as who wish to participate. i don't see HC as claiming to have
> reinvented the PD gui but it's lot of work corralling many different extended
> efforts, keeping track of changes, and answering the majority of tech
> questions that comes across the list, and i am grateful to him and everyone
> else who contributes time and effort to making PD better for newbies and more
> flexible for pros.
>
> scott
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-02-20 at 10:36 -0800, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -----
> > > From: Roman Haefeli
> > > To: pd-list@iem.at
> > > Cc:
> > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:28 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
> > >
> > > On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 16:47 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > >> Do you think that it helps
> > >> making Pd be taken seriously ?
> > >
> > > Interesting question. I haven't thought about what could help make Pd be
> > > taken less or more seriously. Thinking about it, I feel that people
> > > often tend to take something seriously for odd reasons, like if has a
> > > 'nice' interface, if it costs much, if prominent person XY has a
> > > positive opinion about it, etc.
> > >
> > > Roman
> >
> > "Nice interface" does not belong in this list of odd reasons to take
> > a program seriously.
>
> Yeah, you're right. I should have said something else ('rounded
> corners'?)
>
> Roman
>
>
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M. Stallman
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
- Original Message - > From: Mathieu Bouchard > To: Roman Haefeli > Cc: pd-list@iem.at > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:23 PM > Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43 > > Le 2012-02-20 à 14:27:00, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit : > >> and adding some tables so that Tk-side code can be more aware of what's > going on, such as « canvas finished loading » events (though this part of > pd43 > is completely different from DesireData's equivalent). > > I don't know why I mentioned it... it's definitely not similar enough. And it doesn't quite work. The <> virtual event will trigger before Tk is actually finished drawing the patch window. At least I think that's what's happening, because I tried to do [loadbang]--[tip 1 hello(--[s this_canvas] (which will create a window item on the canvas with a label in it with the text "hello"), but the label is given too narrow a width and I get: h e l l o If I send the message to create the tip manually, after the patch has finished loading, it displays fine. -Jonathan > > But the thing about Wish still holds (deleting the C code in the Tk side and > some related things). > > And I didn't really want to go into those details. My mistake. The point was > really about the proportion of code that changed. > > __ > | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Le 2012-02-20 à 14:27:00, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit : and adding some tables so that Tk-side code can be more aware of what's going on, such as « canvas finished loading » events (though this part of pd43 is completely different from DesireData's equivalent). I don't know why I mentioned it... it's definitely not similar enough. But the thing about Wish still holds (deleting the C code in the Tk side and some related things). And I didn't really want to go into those details. My mistake. The point was really about the proportion of code that changed. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Le 2012-02-20 à 12:56:00, Scott R. Looney a écrit : i don't believe i saw HC attempting to claim sole credit for the work he does every day I was only talking about the exaggeration of the difference between pd43 and pd42, and bad wording (or structure of the announcement). I don't say he was actually trying to take credit on his team's behalf or personal behalf for things that were not done by them or him, just that this announcement (and several previous ones) is/are misleading and give the impression of those claims. i see real progress behind the scenes with PD-extended, There is. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
well, speaking as a new member of the list and a very budding PD user
coming from last using Max 5.1 i am happy with any incremental steps making
the interface more usable. i do realize that usability can be a subjective
term, but even simply paving the way for more options is an excellent start.
i don't believe i saw HC attempting to claim sole credit for the work he
does every day on creating a more balanced release of on top of others hard
work. his whole focus to me seems to be how to improve things and move PD
forward both in terms of stability and usability/flexibility.
personally i have some gripes - i'm not enthusiastic about the look of
Tcl/Tk apps in general - they are too blocky with no apparent ability for
alpha channeling in the gui. i think Juce comes closer for me. i would love
the ability to zoom in on patches. i use this feature all the time when in
Max 5.1. i think not being able to pass the { and } characters without a
somewhat convoluted workaround REALLY holds PD back from interacting with
Javascript or most scripting languages in a way friendly a newbie.
in spite of all that, i see real progress behind the scenes with
PD-extended, and i have no doubt that it will continue to move in a
direction that will offer more flexibility and usability down the road
using the input from as many users as who wish to participate. i don't see
HC as claiming to have reinvented the PD gui but it's lot of work
corralling many different extended efforts, keeping track of changes, and
answering the majority of tech questions that comes across the list, and i
am grateful to him and everyone else who contributes time and effort to
making PD better for newbies and more flexible for pros.
scott
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-02-20 at 10:36 -0800, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > > From: Roman Haefeli
> > > To: pd-list@iem.at
> > > Cc:
> > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:28 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended
> 0.43
> > >
> > > On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 16:47 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > >> Do you think that it helps
> > >> making Pd be taken seriously ?
> > >
> > > Interesting question. I haven't thought about what could help make Pd
> be
> > > taken less or more seriously. Thinking about it, I feel that people
> > > often tend to take something seriously for odd reasons, like if has a
> > > 'nice' interface, if it costs much, if prominent person XY has a
> > > positive opinion about it, etc.
> > >
> > > Roman
> >
> > "Nice interface" does not belong in this list of odd reasons to take
> > a program seriously.
>
> Yeah, you're right. I should have said something else ('rounded
> corners'?)
>
> Roman
>
>
> ___
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> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
On Mon, 2012-02-20 at 10:36 -0800, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> > From: Roman Haefeli
> > To: pd-list@iem.at
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
> >
> > On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 16:47 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Do you think that it helps
> >> making Pd be taken seriously ?
> >
> > Interesting question. I haven't thought about what could help make Pd be
> > taken less or more seriously. Thinking about it, I feel that people
> > often tend to take something seriously for odd reasons, like if has a
> > 'nice' interface, if it costs much, if prominent person XY has a
> > positive opinion about it, etc.
> >
> > Roman
>
> "Nice interface" does not belong in this list of odd reasons to take
> a program seriously.
Yeah, you're right. I should have said something else ('rounded
corners'?)
Roman
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Le 2012-02-20 à 10:36:00, Jonathan Wilkes a écrit : From: Roman Haefeli Interesting question. I haven't thought about what could help make Pd be taken less or more seriously. Thinking about it, I feel that people often tend to take something seriously for odd reasons, like if has a 'nice' interface, if it costs much, if prominent person XY has a positive opinion about it, etc. "Nice interface" does not belong in this list of odd reasons to take a program seriously. Depends who of you two guys is taking it to mean « shiny buttons » while the other one thinks in terms of efficient communication between the user and the software. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Le 2012-02-20 à 14:28:00, Roman Haefeli a écrit : No, I agree that giving a misleading impression should be avoided, but the point (again) is that I still believe I didn't get any wrong impression (probably I'm wrong here?). I must also say I haven't looked at the code itself, but followed the commit history of Pd-0.43 and the talks in the mailing lists pd-list and pd-dev. And my impression was that some of what could be changed regarding pd<->pd-gui communication was achieved, but it's still an ongoing process. Oh, something was achieved, yes. Pd 43 incorporates several ideas from DesireData, rewritten such that they work in vanilla/extended. For example, replacing pd-gui by plain Wish, and adding some tables so that Tk-side code can be more aware of what's going on, such as « canvas finished loading » events (though this part of pd43 is completely different from DesireData's equivalent). But 43's «rewrite» is still a small portion of even just rewriting the Tk side of the GUI. Do you think that it helps making Pd be taken seriously ? Interesting question. I haven't thought about what could help make Pd be taken less or more seriously. Thinking about it, I feel that people often tend to take something seriously for odd reasons, Ok. Now think about developers. What happens when one gets enthusiastic about pd43 because the announcement sounds like there was a huge amount of change, and then looks at the code and see that in the end there isn't nearly that much difference ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
- Original Message - > From: Roman Haefeli > To: pd-list@iem.at > Cc: > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:28 AM > Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43 > > On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 16:47 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: [...] >> Do you think that it helps >> making Pd be taken seriously ? > > Interesting question. I haven't thought about what could help make Pd be > taken less or more seriously. Thinking about it, I feel that people > often tend to take something seriously for odd reasons, like if has a > 'nice' interface, if it costs much, if prominent person XY has a > positive opinion about it, etc. > > Roman "Nice interface" does not belong in this list of odd reasons to take a program seriously. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 16:47 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: > Le 2012-02-18 à 21:57:00, Roman Haefeli a écrit : > > > An attitude of trying to make things look bad for no obvious reason. > > What Hans has written at the beginning of the announcement is bad and this > is why I « make it look bad ». > > > I think that all recent efforts done in Pd and Pd-extended are great > > The great efforts that Hans puts in the Pd-extended project should not > give him the right to say whatever he wants. Of course, not. Still, I - according to my personal judgment (I cannot speak for you) - didn't read Hans as he would be claiming unjustified credit. > I'm not even talking about that topic. > > > If people feel pretermitted, I think it's up to them to speak up. > > You mean that it's alright to give the impression that a lot more has > changed in Pd than what really has changed ? No, I agree that giving a misleading impression should be avoided, but the point (again) is that I still believe I didn't get any wrong impression (probably I'm wrong here?). I must also say I haven't looked at the code itself, but followed the commit history of Pd-0.43 and the talks in the mailing lists pd-list and pd-dev. And my impression was that some of what could be changed regarding pd<->pd-gui communication was achieved, but it's still an ongoing process. > Do you think that it helps > making Pd be taken seriously ? Interesting question. I haven't thought about what could help make Pd be taken less or more seriously. Thinking about it, I feel that people often tend to take something seriously for odd reasons, like if has a 'nice' interface, if it costs much, if prominent person XY has a positive opinion about it, etc. Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Le 2012-02-18 à 21:57:00, Roman Haefeli a écrit : An attitude of trying to make things look bad for no obvious reason. What Hans has written at the beginning of the announcement is bad and this is why I « make it look bad ». I think that all recent efforts done in Pd and Pd-extended are great The great efforts that Hans puts in the Pd-extended project should not give him the right to say whatever he wants. I'm not even talking about that topic. If people feel pretermitted, I think it's up to them to speak up. You mean that it's alright to give the impression that a lot more has changed in Pd than what really has changed ? Do you think that it helps making Pd be taken seriously ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 15:13 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: > > an 'anti' attitude > > What's that ? An attitude of trying to make things look bad for no obvious reason. I think that all recent efforts done in Pd and Pd-extended are great and I haven't had the impression that the wrong people took credit for it (that's an impression I get from reading this mailing list). If people feel pretermitted, I think it's up to them to speak up. Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Le 2012-02-18 à 20:57:00, Roman Haefeli a écrit : I can only speak for myself, but I didn't read it as Hans would have taken credit for those efforts. Maybe you didn't read it. :-/ If you're interpreting it too much according to what you think Hans want to say, then you might not be paying attention to what he's saying. Why have you changed the 'new' from the subject to 'old'? Because I was talking about the parts that were portrayed as new or rewritten, but were coded over ten years ago. That's all what I'm talking about in this thread, and usually, I get told that I forget to change the subject-line to reflect the content. You should be happy that I changed it now. an 'anti' attitude What's that ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Hi Matju On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 11:54 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: > Le 2012-02-17 à 15:02:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit : > > > First off, the pd-gui side of Pd has been re-written from scratch. When > > you run Pd, you are actually running two programs: pd is the core engine > > and pd-gui is the GUI. Since basically all computers now come with > > multiple CPU cores, this means that pd-gui will usually run on a > > separate CPU core than pd, so they don’t step on each other’s toes. > > It's a bad idea to take credit for things that Miller had already done or > that his contributors had done. I can only speak for myself, but I didn't read it as Hans would have taken credit for those efforts. Why have you changed the 'new' from the subject to 'old'? I have the feeling you show some kind of an 'anti' attitude. Is that true? Why? Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
I just wish that PD keeps the same philosophy of robustness and simplicity as before. Tuti On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: > Le 2012-02-17 à 15:02:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit : > >> First off, the pd-gui side of Pd has been re-written from scratch. When >> you run Pd, you are actually running two programs: pd is the core engine and >> pd-gui is the GUI. Since basically all computers now come with multiple CPU >> cores, this means that pd-gui will usually run on a separate CPU core than >> pd, so they don’t step on each other’s toes. > > > It was already like that since the first version of pd ever, over 15 years > ago. It's misleading to write it in the same paragraph as « the pd-gui side > of Pd has been re-written from scratch ». You also don't state which part of > the pd-gui has been rewritten from scratch, which obscures the fact that a > large fraction of it hasn't been rewritten. > > It's a bad idea to take credit for things that Miller had already done or > that his contributors had done. > > If you want to say, for example, that pd-extended 43 fixes a certain cause > of hiccups due to bad sync between the two parts of pd, then you can say it > like that, more or less, but a goal to keeping explanations simple doesn't > entitle you to say what you have said. > > __ > | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC > ___ > Pd-announce mailing list > pd-annou...@iem.at > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce > > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > -- - José Fornari (Tuti) http:/sites.google.com/site/tutifornari/ email: tutiforn...@gmail.com skype: tutifornari cel: (11) 8318-8778 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] [PD-announce] old editing features of Pd-extended 0.43
Le 2012-02-17 à 15:02:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit : First off, the pd-gui side of Pd has been re-written from scratch. When you run Pd, you are actually running two programs: pd is the core engine and pd-gui is the GUI. Since basically all computers now come with multiple CPU cores, this means that pd-gui will usually run on a separate CPU core than pd, so they don’t step on each other’s toes. It was already like that since the first version of pd ever, over 15 years ago. It's misleading to write it in the same paragraph as « the pd-gui side of Pd has been re-written from scratch ». You also don't state which part of the pd-gui has been rewritten from scratch, which obscures the fact that a large fraction of it hasn't been rewritten. It's a bad idea to take credit for things that Miller had already done or that his contributors had done. If you want to say, for example, that pd-extended 43 fixes a certain cause of hiccups due to bad sync between the two parts of pd, then you can say it like that, more or less, but a goal to keeping explanations simple doesn't entitle you to say what you have said. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-announce mailing list pd-annou...@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
