Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:56 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Ok, a few more questions concerning help patches: 1. What is a PD-meta GENRE? Is there a list of them somewhere to choose from? I think we only really talked about obvious ones, like VERSION, AUTHOR, COPYRIGHT, DESCRIPTION. Don't remember anything about GENRE. Perhaps that's something like a category. TAGS might also be appropriate. 2. For PD-meta DATATYPE, take "gatom-help.pd" as an example: should this list acceptable DATATYPEs like "bang float list symbol", or just the datatypes that are most likely to be useful for this object, i.e., "bang float"? Hmm, donno, any record of such things would be in the pddp IRC chat transcripts. 3. Are all of the internal objects inherited from pd-vanilla really GPL? I thought they were under the "Standard Improved BSD License" unless explicitly stating otherwise in the source code. Yeah, what Frank said. Some externals are also GPLv3 or later, while most are GPLv2 or later. .hc -Jonathan 'You people have such restrictive dress for women,’ she said, hobbling away in three inch heels and panty hose to finish out another pink- collar temp pool day. - “Hijab Scene #2", by Mohja Kahf ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > 3. Are all of the internal objects inherited from pd-vanilla really > GPL? I thought they were under the "Standard Improved BSD License" > unless explicitly stating otherwise in the source code. And you are right: All of Pd vanilla is BSD, only [expr] and its relatives are GPL. Ciao -- Frank ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
Ok, a few more questions concerning help patches: 1. What is a PD-meta GENRE? Is there a list of them somewhere to choose from? 2. For PD-meta DATATYPE, take "gatom-help.pd" as an example: should this list acceptable DATATYPEs like "bang float list symbol", or just the datatypes that are most likely to be useful for this object, i.e., "bang float"? 3. Are all of the internal objects inherited from pd-vanilla really GPL? I thought they were under the "Standard Improved BSD License" unless explicitly stating otherwise in the source code. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
On Jun 17, 2009, at 11:47 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Ok, a couple of questions before I get deeper into the revisions: 1. Should help patches be tailored for font sizes other than 10? It might be feasible to do this for size 12 fonts, but it will make patches look worse at size 10. For example, to accommodate 12pt fonts, paragraphs and comments to the right of objects will have to be given more padding, which looks awkward at 10pts. If there's no padding, objects and paragraphs will collide when you try to enlarge the fonts. So far, 10 points has been the standard for a while. It seems like a lot of work to change it with only a minor benefit, IMHO. 2. The "description:" comment isn't long enough for some of the descriptions, which I think are already reasonably short (e.g., czero_rev~). It would fit without the word "description", but I'm guessing this would cause problems for the future search functionality that's been discussed. Any ideas? I could just duplicate the description in the pd-meta subpatch but that's kind of awkward. Hmm, can't think of a simple fix for that. On one hand, having the word "Description" on the header is cumbersome looking, on the other, its easily parsible. I say it would be good to remove the word "description", then it can still be reasonably parsed by using the x,y location. .hc Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
Ok, a couple of questions before I get deeper into the revisions: 1. Should help patches be tailored for font sizes other than 10? It might be feasible to do this for size 12 fonts, but it will make patches look worse at size 10. For example, to accommodate 12pt fonts, paragraphs and comments to the right of objects will have to be given more padding, which looks awkward at 10pts. If there's no padding, objects and paragraphs will collide when you try to enlarge the fonts. 2. The "description:" comment isn't long enough for some of the descriptions, which I think are already reasonably short (e.g., czero_rev~). It would fit without the word "description", but I'm guessing this would cause problems for the future search functionality that's been discussed. Any ideas? I could just duplicate the description in the pd-meta subpatch but that's kind of awkward. Thanks, Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
On Jun 12, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
Subject: Re: Revising Help Files
To: "Jonathan Wilkes"
Cc: pd-list@iem.at
Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 7:45 PM
On Jun 12, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Ok, a couple things:
1. pddplink gives a big error when loading your
template:
wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root?
?port?"
wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root?
?port?"
while executing
"::pddp::srvUse D:/Documents and
Settings/dude/Desktop"
("after" script)
It still shows up in the patch (and seems to
work). I'm on
windows xp.
bugs bugs bugs... keep on coming up... yeah, that should be
fixed... I
think its only on Windows.
I propose getting rid of it in the template. Even when it works,
it points to pages that just duplicate the info from the help-
patch the user would already be looking at, but without the
benefit of example patches, context, or intelligibility. Unless
it's pointing to old pages or something, but I googled pdpedia,
looked up "float", and it's the same page.
The idea for the pdpedia links is a place to easily gather info about
that object. So far there aren't a lot of contributions. But I think
that having pdpedia links on all of the help patches would help
generate more contributions, IMHO. The pdpedia pages are definitely
not a replacement for the help patch, I think of it as something more
like a place to have an open conversation about that object.
2. Is there an object that outputs the methods
of objects? It would be nice to automatically
generate info for
inlets/outlets/arguments rather than type it in by
hand.
This is the kind of stuff that IOhannes is working on in
the iemguts
lib, check that to see if it is possible.
3. Is absattr a normal part of pd-ext? I seem to
remember using it
previously for something, but it's not in the most
current release.
In any case, I went ahead and tried to make my keys
and values
compatible with absattr.
No, its part of Thomas Grill's flext externals, which are
maintained
in a separate SVN and he releases his own binaries.
I think that absattr is not a Pd-ish way of working, Pd has
no
'attributes' like Max/MSP. I think the documentation
should be as Pd-
ish as possible.
4. Is there a place somewhere on puredata.info where
there's
a discussion I can read about why each
inlet/outlet/argument needs
a description?
Hmm, definitely somewhere, donno exactly where. I
remember it seeming
obvious, plus we were following the precedent of the Gem
docs.
Hm, I have another view, but I'm running into a wall with my
current attempts at a solution, so I'll just barrel through using
the pddp template and see how far I get.
Cool, we did spend a good amount of time working on that template, but
that doesn't mean its cast in stone. It has good things but can
definitely be improved. Ultimately, I think if you are willing to do
a lot of work making help patches, then you should have liberty to
shape the template.
5. Is there a limit to the number of arguments an
abstraction may
have?
Hmm, I think 10 but I could be wrong.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's more than that. I'm using about up to
30 in pd-ext without any noticeable side effects.
What is pd guts for in the template?
[pd guts] is a place for someone to implement stuff that is separate
from the examples, l think originally, the idea was to have some kind
of page turning logic there. Its fully optional.
.hc
-Jonathan
.hc
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Wed, 6/10/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner
wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
Subject: Re: Revising Help Files
To: "Jonathan Wilkes"
Cc: "a. tonal" ,
pd-list@iem.at
Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 9:03 PM
Hey,
Your patches look quite nice. I'm glad you
are taking
this stuff on, Pd will definitely benefit from
more work on
the documentation.
There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic
a few
years back as part of the PDDP project. All
of the
discussion is archived on http://puredata.info/dev/pddp We did
come up with
a template, you can download it from the
SVN. It is a
bit heavier that your design:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/doc/pddp/templates/template-help.pd
About htab's dependency on pddp/dsp, it would be
possible
to make pddp/dsp a subpatch. But then again,
I think
that Pd-extended is the only distro to include the
PDDP help
patches, so it makes sense to use the pddp/dsp
object.
.hc
On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:09 AM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:
Hi List,
I'm interested in revising the help files for
the
basic objects in
pd-ext. Basically having a standard
table so
that one can find
quickly find basic info on an object.
I made an abstraction called htab that
automatically
formats this
information in a gop abstraction.
Currently I'm
entering the info
as arguments
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
> Subject: Re: Revising Help Files
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes"
> Cc: pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 7:45 PM
>
> On Jun 12, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>
> >
> > Ok, a couple things:
> > 1. pddplink gives a big error when loading your
> template:
> > wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root?
> ?port?"
> > wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root?
> ?port?"
> > while executing
> > "::pddp::srvUse D:/Documents and
> Settings/dude/Desktop"
> > ("after" script)
> >
> > It still shows up in the patch (and seems to
> work). I'm on
> > windows xp.
>
> bugs bugs bugs... keep on coming up... yeah, that should be
> fixed... I
> think its only on Windows.
I propose getting rid of it in the template. Even when it works,
it points to pages that just duplicate the info from the help-
patch the user would already be looking at, but without the
benefit of example patches, context, or intelligibility. Unless
it's pointing to old pages or something, but I googled pdpedia,
looked up "float", and it's the same page.
>
> > 2. Is there an object that outputs the methods
> > of objects? It would be nice to automatically
> generate info for
> > inlets/outlets/arguments rather than type it in by
> hand.
>
> This is the kind of stuff that IOhannes is working on in
> the iemguts
> lib, check that to see if it is possible.
>
> > 3. Is absattr a normal part of pd-ext? I seem to
> remember using it
> > previously for something, but it's not in the most
> current release.
> > In any case, I went ahead and tried to make my keys
> and values
> > compatible with absattr.
>
> No, its part of Thomas Grill's flext externals, which are
> maintained
> in a separate SVN and he releases his own binaries.
>
> I think that absattr is not a Pd-ish way of working, Pd has
> no
> 'attributes' like Max/MSP. I think the documentation
> should be as Pd-
> ish as possible.
>
> > 4. Is there a place somewhere on puredata.info where
> there's
> > a discussion I can read about why each
> inlet/outlet/argument needs
> > a description?
>
> Hmm, definitely somewhere, donno exactly where. I
> remember it seeming
> obvious, plus we were following the precedent of the Gem
> docs.
Hm, I have another view, but I'm running into a wall with my
current attempts at a solution, so I'll just barrel through using
the pddp template and see how far I get.
>
> > 5. Is there a limit to the number of arguments an
> abstraction may
> > have?
>
> Hmm, I think 10 but I could be wrong.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's more than that. I'm using about up to
30 in pd-ext without any noticeable side effects.
What is pd guts for in the template?
-Jonathan
>
> .hc
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 6/10/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
> >> Subject: Re: Revising Help Files
> >> To: "Jonathan Wilkes"
> >> Cc: "a. tonal" ,
> pd-list@iem.at
> >> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 9:03 PM
> >>
> >> Hey,
> >>
> >> Your patches look quite nice. I'm glad you
> are taking
> >> this stuff on, Pd will definitely benefit from
> more work on
> >> the documentation.
> >>
> >> There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic
> a few
> >> years back as part of the PDDP project. All
> of the
> >> discussion is archived on http://puredata.info/dev/pddp We did
> >> come up with
> >> a template, you can download it from the
> SVN. It is a
> >> bit heavier that your design:
> >>
> >> http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/doc/pddp/templates/template-help.pd
> >>
> >> About htab's dependency on pddp/dsp, it would be
> possible
> >> to make pddp/dsp a subpatch. But then again,
> I think
> >> that Pd-extended is the only distro to include the
> PDDP help
> >> patches, so it makes sense to use the pddp/dsp
> object.
> >>
> >> .hc
> >>
> >> On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:09 AM, Jonathan Wilkes
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi List,
> >>> I'm interested in revising the help files for
> the
> >> basic objects in
> >>> pd-ext. Basically having a standard
> table so
> >> that one can find
> >>> quickly find basic info on an object.
> >>>
> >>> I made an abstraction called htab that
> automatically
> >> formats this
> >>> information in a gop abstraction.
> Currently I'm
> >> entering the info
> >>> as arguments to htab, which works quite well
> when
> >> using
> >>> ctrl-t.
> >>>
> >>> However, there are currently lots of different
> help
> >> patch formats in
> >>> the reference folder for the common pd
> objects.
> >> I'd like to have
> >>> one standard format to make it quicker and
> easier to
> >> get help.
> >>>
> >>> Attached are examples of what I'd like to
> >> implement. Aside from
> >>> the pddp/dsp abstraction, it has the benefit
> of being
> >> vanilla-
> >>> compatible and fitting on an 800x600 screen
> (at least
> >> on windows).
> >>>
> >>> Please have a look a
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
On Jun 12, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Ok, a couple things:
1. pddplink gives a big error when loading your template:
wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root? ?port?"
wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root? ?port?"
while executing
"::pddp::srvUse D:/Documents and Settings/dude/Desktop"
("after" script)
It still shows up in the patch (and seems to work). I'm on
windows xp.
bugs bugs bugs... keep on coming up... yeah, that should be fixed... I
think its only on Windows.
2. Is there an object that outputs the methods
of objects? It would be nice to automatically generate info for
inlets/outlets/arguments rather than type it in by hand.
This is the kind of stuff that IOhannes is working on in the iemguts
lib, check that to see if it is possible.
3. Is absattr a normal part of pd-ext? I seem to remember using it
previously for something, but it's not in the most current release.
In any case, I went ahead and tried to make my keys and values
compatible with absattr.
No, its part of Thomas Grill's flext externals, which are maintained
in a separate SVN and he releases his own binaries.
I think that absattr is not a Pd-ish way of working, Pd has no
'attributes' like Max/MSP. I think the documentation should be as Pd-
ish as possible.
4. Is there a place somewhere on puredata.info where there's
a discussion I can read about why each inlet/outlet/argument needs
a description?
Hmm, definitely somewhere, donno exactly where. I remember it seeming
obvious, plus we were following the precedent of the Gem docs.
5. Is there a limit to the number of arguments an abstraction may
have?
Hmm, I think 10 but I could be wrong.
.hc
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Wed, 6/10/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
Subject: Re: Revising Help Files
To: "Jonathan Wilkes"
Cc: "a. tonal" , pd-list@iem.at
Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 9:03 PM
Hey,
Your patches look quite nice. I'm glad you are taking
this stuff on, Pd will definitely benefit from more work on
the documentation.
There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic a few
years back as part of the PDDP project. All of the
discussion is archived on http://puredata.info/dev/pddp We did
come up with
a template, you can download it from the SVN. It is a
bit heavier that your design:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/doc/pddp/templates/template-help.pd
About htab's dependency on pddp/dsp, it would be possible
to make pddp/dsp a subpatch. But then again, I think
that Pd-extended is the only distro to include the PDDP help
patches, so it makes sense to use the pddp/dsp object.
.hc
On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:09 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Hi List,
I'm interested in revising the help files for the
basic objects in
pd-ext. Basically having a standard table so
that one can find
quickly find basic info on an object.
I made an abstraction called htab that automatically
formats this
information in a gop abstraction. Currently I'm
entering the info
as arguments to htab, which works quite well when
using
ctrl-t.
However, there are currently lots of different help
patch formats in
the reference folder for the common pd objects.
I'd like to have
one standard format to make it quicker and easier to
get help.
Attached are examples of what I'd like to
implement. Aside from
the pddp/dsp abstraction, it has the benefit of being
vanilla-
compatible and fitting on an 800x600 screen (at least
on windows).
Please have a look at the attached and let me know if
this seems
like a good format or not. The patches should
work with the
current pd-x.
Thanks,
Jonathan
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we
should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any
invention of ours; and this we should do freely and
generously. - Benjamin
Franklin
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from
scarcity."-John Gilmore
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
Ok, a couple things:
1. pddplink gives a big error when loading your template:
wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root? ?port?"
wrong # args: should be "::pddp::srvUse ?root? ?port?"
while executing
"::pddp::srvUse D:/Documents and Settings/dude/Desktop"
("after" script)
It still shows up in the patch (and seems to work). I'm on
windows xp.
2. Is there an object that outputs the methods
of objects? It would be nice to automatically generate info for
inlets/outlets/arguments rather than type it in by hand.
3. Is absattr a normal part of pd-ext? I seem to remember using it
previously for something, but it's not in the most current release.
In any case, I went ahead and tried to make my keys and values
compatible with absattr.
4. Is there a place somewhere on puredata.info where there's
a discussion I can read about why each inlet/outlet/argument needs
a description?
5. Is there a limit to the number of arguments an abstraction may
have?
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Wed, 6/10/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
> Subject: Re: Revising Help Files
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes"
> Cc: "a. tonal" , pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 9:03 PM
>
> Hey,
>
> Your patches look quite nice. I'm glad you are taking
> this stuff on, Pd will definitely benefit from more work on
> the documentation.
>
> There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic a few
> years back as part of the PDDP project. All of the
> discussion is archived on http://puredata.info/dev/pddp We did come up with
> a template, you can download it from the SVN. It is a
> bit heavier that your design:
>
> http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/doc/pddp/templates/template-help.pd
>
> About htab's dependency on pddp/dsp, it would be possible
> to make pddp/dsp a subpatch. But then again, I think
> that Pd-extended is the only distro to include the PDDP help
> patches, so it makes sense to use the pddp/dsp object.
>
> .hc
>
> On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:09 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>
> > Hi List,
> > I'm interested in revising the help files for the
> basic objects in
> > pd-ext. Basically having a standard table so
> that one can find
> > quickly find basic info on an object.
> >
> > I made an abstraction called htab that automatically
> formats this
> > information in a gop abstraction. Currently I'm
> entering the info
> > as arguments to htab, which works quite well when
> using
> > ctrl-t.
> >
> > However, there are currently lots of different help
> patch formats in
> > the reference folder for the common pd objects.
> I'd like to have
> > one standard format to make it quicker and easier to
> get help.
> >
> > Attached are examples of what I'd like to
> implement. Aside from
> > the pddp/dsp abstraction, it has the benefit of being
> vanilla-
> > compatible and fitting on an 800x600 screen (at least
> on windows).
> >
> > Please have a look at the attached and let me know if
> this seems
> > like a good format or not. The patches should
> work with the
> > current pd-x.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we
> should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any
> invention of ours; and this we should do freely and
> generously. - Benjamin
> Franklin
>
>
>
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Revising Help Files
Hey, Your patches look quite nice. I'm glad you are taking this stuff on, Pd will definitely benefit from more work on the documentation. There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic a few years back as part of the PDDP project. All of the discussion is archived on http://puredata.info/dev/pddp We did come up with a template, you can download it from the SVN. It is a bit heavier that your design: http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/doc/pddp/templates/template-help.pd About htab's dependency on pddp/dsp, it would be possible to make pddp/ dsp a subpatch. But then again, I think that Pd-extended is the only distro to include the PDDP help patches, so it makes sense to use the pddp/dsp object. .hc On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:09 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Hi List, I'm interested in revising the help files for the basic objects in pd-ext. Basically having a standard table so that one can find quickly find basic info on an object. I made an abstraction called htab that automatically formats this information in a gop abstraction. Currently I'm entering the info as arguments to htab, which works quite well when using ctrl-t. However, there are currently lots of different help patch formats in the reference folder for the common pd objects. I'd like to have one standard format to make it quicker and easier to get help. Attached are examples of what I'd like to implement. Aside from the pddp/dsp abstraction, it has the benefit of being vanilla- compatible and fitting on an 800x600 screen (at least on windows). Please have a look at the attached and let me know if this seems like a good format or not. The patches should work with the current pd-x. Thanks, Jonathan As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
