Re: [PD] slow startup (was Re: [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released)

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

Am 2. Juni 2024 02:19:46 MESZ schrieb Benjamin Wesch :
>> this is new to me, i admit - but hoping that i did it correctly, i now get:
>> 2fe920f88abb814fc89719a617ce48d63a3eae3a is the first bad commit


Thanks a lot for finding this!
For whatever reasons, an application is obviously not allowed to read its own 
metainfo without penalty.
I might be able to submit a fix for this in the evening (now it's early morning 
here) 
If somebody is faster, then please do not just revert the bad commit, but 
instead just replace the dynamic reading of ::pd_guiprefs::domain in 

 to
```
set ::pd_guiprefs::domain org.puredata.pd.pd-gui
```
(or probably just remove the lines 72-76, as this *should* be handled by 
fallbacks; I'm currently afk so my view is a bit narrow)


mfg.sfg.jfd
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] slow startup (was Re: [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released)

[Benjamin Wesch]

was curious now and also tested the current master without this single commit.
warning dialogs are all gone and measurements look incredible:

Benchmark 1: Pd-0.55.0-maybelessbad.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd
-send "pd quit"
  Time (mean ± σ): 240.7 ms ±   5.9 ms[User: 17.3 ms, System: 16.2 ms]
  Range (min … max):   224.7 ms … 246.9 ms12 runs

so the question now probably is what we're missing without the "bad commit"?

On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 12:32 AM Benjamin Wesch  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 11:27 PM IOhannes m zmölnig  wrote:
> > if you know how to use `git bisect`, you could try to narrow down the
> > commit that introduced the slowdown.
>
> this is new to me, i admit - but hoping that i did it correctly, i now get:
> 2fe920f88abb814fc89719a617ce48d63a3eae3a is the first bad commit
>
> cheers,
> ben



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Re: [PD] slow startup (was Re: [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released)

[Benjamin Wesch]

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 11:27 PM IOhannes m zmölnig  wrote:
> if you know how to use `git bisect`, you could try to narrow down the
> commit that introduced the slowdown.

this is new to me, i admit - but hoping that i did it correctly, i now get:
2fe920f88abb814fc89719a617ce48d63a3eae3a is the first bad commit

cheers,
ben



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[PD] slow startup (was Re: [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released)

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 6/1/24 22:26, Benjamin Wesch wrote:

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 10:04 PM IOhannes m zmölnig  wrote:

i might have missed it, but does anybody of the users who experience the
slowdown also see this if they compile Pd themselves?


i didn't mention it, but tested with a local build here: getting quite
exactly the same results and even the warning dialog.



cool (that you are able to produce the problem with self-built binaries).

if you know how to use `git bisect`, youcould try to narrow down the 
commit that introduced the slowdown.


gfmsd
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[Benjamin Wesch]

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 10:04 PM IOhannes m zmölnig  wrote:
> i might have missed it, but does anybody of the users who experience the
> slowdown also see this if they compile Pd themselves?

i didn't mention it, but tested with a local build here: getting quite
exactly the same results and even the warning dialog.

ran these tests with that build once more now:
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noverbose -send
  0.02s user 0.02s system 2% cpu 1.460 total
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noverbose
-nosound0.02s user 0.02s system 2% cpu 1.453 total
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noverbose
-noprefs0.01s user 0.02s system 2% cpu 1.418 total
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noverbose
-nostdpath0.02s user 0.02s system 2% cpu 1.493 total

cheers,
ben



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 6/1/24 20:57, Miller Puckette wrote:

Thanks - so it's clearly something about the new code...


+1


> I wish I could
get the slowdown to happen on my machine so I could monkey with this 
myself :)


yep.

i might have missed it, but does anybody of the users who experience the 
slowdown also see this if they compile Pd themselves?


now that (I think) we've established that the problem occurs only on 
macOS 14 "Sonoma", I will try to reproduce it with a Sonoma VM when i'm 
back at the uni on monday.


once we've found a way to create and test build with faster turnaround 
times than via the CI, it should be straightforward to bisect the problem.



gfamrd
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[Miller Puckette]

Thanks - so it's clearly something about the new code... I wish I could 
get the slowdown to happen on my machine so I could monkey with this 
myself :)


Miller

On 6/1/24 1:14 PM, Benjamin Wesch wrote:

OK, next thing I want to see is what happens if I recompile Pd 0.54-1...

I checked with Pd-0.54-1-1-gb12dcbcb now (from
https://git.iem.at/pd/pure-data/-/jobs/72843/artifacts/download?file_type=archive
) and get the same (good) results as for the official Pd-0.54-1
download.
I also don't get these additional "[...] would like to access data
from other apps." dialogs. (only once asking to confirm:
'“Pd-0.54-1-1-gb12dcbcb.app” is an app downloaded from the internet.
Are you sure you want to open it?')


But then Pd-0.54 should be affected as well (unless, maybe, wildly guessing, 
Pd-0.54 was installed with an older version of macOS, and the os upgrade kept 
existing permissions)

Just to be (kind of) sure that this can't be connected to any remains
from the original Pd-0.54, I also installed an old version that quite
certainly had never been on my system yet: 0.52-2 ... that also
doesn't give me these warnings. A quick search shows that this dialog
is actually a Sonoma "feature" - but it obviously seems weird that
it's not triggered for previous Pd versions.

Cheers,
Ben

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 11:29 AM Miller Puckette
 wrote:

OK, next thing I want to see is what happens if I recompile Pd 0.54-1...
I just created a branch to see if I can get the IEM compile chain to
grind it out anew.

Hopping on an airplane soon but will be about for 1/2 hour or so I think.

cheers

M

On 6/1/24 11:06 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:

Am 1. Juni 2024 10:56:42 MESZ schrieb "IOhannes m zmölnig" :

Am 1. Juni 2024 10:50:19 MESZ schrieb Benjamin Wesch 
: installed


i also got the dialog that william mentions though. could this be
connected?

Hmm. I've never seen these.

Most likely is a new feature of iOS/macOS 14.
But then Pd-0.54 should be affected as well (unless, maybe, wildly guessing, 
Pd-0.54 was installed with an older version of macOS, and the os upgrade kept 
existing permissions)


mfg.sfg.jfd
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[Benjamin Wesch]

> OK, next thing I want to see is what happens if I recompile Pd 0.54-1...

I checked with Pd-0.54-1-1-gb12dcbcb now (from
https://git.iem.at/pd/pure-data/-/jobs/72843/artifacts/download?file_type=archive
) and get the same (good) results as for the official Pd-0.54-1
download.
I also don't get these additional "[...] would like to access data
from other apps." dialogs. (only once asking to confirm:
'“Pd-0.54-1-1-gb12dcbcb.app” is an app downloaded from the internet.
Are you sure you want to open it?')

> > But then Pd-0.54 should be affected as well (unless, maybe, wildly 
> > guessing, Pd-0.54 was installed with an older version of macOS, and the os 
> > upgrade kept existing permissions)

Just to be (kind of) sure that this can't be connected to any remains
from the original Pd-0.54, I also installed an old version that quite
certainly had never been on my system yet: 0.52-2 ... that also
doesn't give me these warnings. A quick search shows that this dialog
is actually a Sonoma "feature" - but it obviously seems weird that
it's not triggered for previous Pd versions.

Cheers,
Ben

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 11:29 AM Miller Puckette
 wrote:
>
> OK, next thing I want to see is what happens if I recompile Pd 0.54-1...
> I just created a branch to see if I can get the IEM compile chain to
> grind it out anew.
>
> Hopping on an airplane soon but will be about for 1/2 hour or so I think.
>
> cheers
>
> M
>
> On 6/1/24 11:06 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > Am 1. Juni 2024 10:56:42 MESZ schrieb "IOhannes m zmölnig" 
> > :
> >> Am 1. Juni 2024 10:50:19 MESZ schrieb Benjamin Wesch 
> >> : installed
> >>
> >>> i also got the dialog that william mentions though. could this be
> >>> connected?
> >> Hmm. I've never seen these.
> > Most likely is a new feature of iOS/macOS 14.
> > But then Pd-0.54 should be affected as well (unless, maybe, wildly 
> > guessing, Pd-0.54 was installed with an older version of macOS, and the os 
> > upgrade kept existing permissions)
> >
> >
> > mfg.sfg.jfd
> > IOhannes
> >
> >
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[William Brent]

I just gave this a shot via "sudo spctl --master-disable" and get the same
behavior.

I also disabled the popup via the Privacy & Security/Full Disk Access
preference pane, but the ~8sec startup time remains.

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 5:56 AM Roman Haefeli  wrote:

> On Sat, 2024-06-01 at 11:33 +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > To confirm, I also see a slow startup of the GUI with test3 on macOS
> > 14.5 on an M1 Pro. I will take a look at this too...
>
> I don't notice slow start up (didn't bother to measure)  on macOS
> 12.6.3 on x86_64 and arm64. Is this specific to macOS 14?
>
> Just throwing in random thoughts here, but could it be related to
> Gatekeeper? Does it happen with it turned off?
>
> Roman
>
> >
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-- 
William Brent

“Great minds flock together”
Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century

www.conflations.com
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[William Brent]

And here are my results running those tests:

/Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -send "pd quit"
0.02s user 0.03s system 1% cpu 2.987 total

time /Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -nosound
-send "pd quit"
0.02s user 0.03s system 1% cpu 2.976 total

time /Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noprefs
-send "pd quit"
0.02s user 0.03s system 1% cpu 3.150 total

time /Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -nostdpath
-send "pd quit"
0.02s user 0.03s system 1% cpu 3.073 total

The same tests with 54-1 give me cpu times of about 0.35sec. And (probably
unrelated), with 55-0, I get "error: error parsing startup arguments" when
running each of these despite the arguments appearing to have their effect.
With 54-1 I don't get the error post.


On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 1:33 AM Miller Puckette 
wrote:

> Hmm, sounds like there are more than one problem...
>
> Can you (and Ben too if he's willing) try these...
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -send "pd quit"
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -nosound -send
> "pd quit"
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noprefs -send
> "pd quit"
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -nostdpath -send
> "pd quit"
>
> I'm grasping at straws here :) Guessing that William's 8-second startup
> and new popup might be something external that's fighting with some Mac
> plist setting in Pd that might have changed.
>
> thanks
> M
>
> On 6/1/24 12:12 AM, William Brent wrote:
> > Thanks for this new release! Unfortunately, I can confirm the extra
> > startup delay for macOS... I tested on an M1 machine with 64GB of
> > memory running macOS 14.5.
> >
> > Also, I get the attached popup every time I open the app, even after
> > clicking "allow." Maybe there's something in macOS preferences that
> > will suppress it? After clicking "allow," it takes a full 8sec for the
> > Pd window to appear. I've only timed this casually with my watch at
> > this point, but after trying multiple times I can say that it's
> > consistently around 8sec for me here. Pd-0.54-1 consistently springs
> > to life in about 1sec for me.
> >
> > I'm happy to run any specific test routines if I can be useful on this.
> > William
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 1:10 PM Miller Puckette
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Test 3 is out.  This should resolve all the trouble we've had with
> > test2
> > except that one tester on MacOS is still finding that Pd 0.55
> > loads way
> > more slowly than 0.54 - I  don't see that happening on my machine
> > and I
> > don't know how many machines will be affected... it might take a
> > while
> > to track this one down, but hopefully it won't affect many
> > people.  If
> > you _do_ notice longer startup times on MacOS please let me (or
> > the Pd
> > list) know - with more data points it migth be easier for me to
> > replicate the problem for myself.
> >
> > as usual: http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm OR
> > https://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm
> >
> > source on github: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data__;!!Mih3wA!GVjycnnXvxANGR5EvpOhP-gDSVl648XDg2uY4mOCl4Bx2j-OYstW0TnDQ7n7R0W2zf5OF7RaFNFSCSjeka4$
> >
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Miller
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > William Brent
> >
> > “Great minds flock together”
> > Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> >
> > www.conflations.com
> > <
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[Roman Haefeli]

On Sat, 2024-06-01 at 11:33 +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> To confirm, I also see a slow startup of the GUI with test3 on macOS
> 14.5 on an M1 Pro. I will take a look at this too...

I don't notice slow start up (didn't bother to measure)  on macOS
12.6.3 on x86_64 and arm64. Is this specific to macOS 14?

Just throwing in random thoughts here, but could it be related to
Gatekeeper? Does it happen with it turned off?

Roman

> 


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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[Dan Wilcox]

To confirm, I also see a slow startup of the GUI with test3 on macOS 14.5 on an 
M1 Pro. I will take a look at this too...

> On Jun 1, 2024, at 12:08 AM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 18:12:53 -0400
> From: William Brent mailto:william.br...@gmail.com>>
> To: pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released
> Message-ID:
>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Thanks for this new release! Unfortunately, I can confirm the extra startup
> delay for macOS... I tested on an M1 machine with 64GB of memory running
> macOS 14.5.
> 
> Also, I get the attached popup every time I open the app, even after
> clicking "allow." Maybe there's something in macOS preferences that will
> suppress it? After clicking "allow," it takes a full 8sec for the Pd window
> to appear. I've only timed this casually with my watch at this point, but
> after trying multiple times I can say that it's consistently around 8sec
> for me here. Pd-0.54-1 consistently springs to life in about 1sec for me.
> 
> I'm happy to run any specific test routines if I can be useful on this.
> William


Dan Wilcox
danomatika.com 
robotcowboy.com 
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[Miller Puckette]

OK, next thing I want to see is what happens if I recompile Pd 0.54-1... 
I just created a branch to see if I can get the IEM compile chain to 
grind it out anew.


Hopping on an airplane soon but will be about for 1/2 hour or so I think.

cheers

M

On 6/1/24 11:06 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:

Am 1. Juni 2024 10:56:42 MESZ schrieb "IOhannes m zmölnig" :

Am 1. Juni 2024 10:50:19 MESZ schrieb Benjamin Wesch 
: installed


i also got the dialog that william mentions though. could this be
connected?

Hmm. I've never seen these.

Most likely is a new feature of iOS/macOS 14.
But then Pd-0.54 should be affected as well (unless, maybe, wildly guessing, 
Pd-0.54 was installed with an older version of macOS, and the os upgrade kept 
existing permissions)


mfg.sfg.jfd
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

Am 1. Juni 2024 10:56:42 MESZ schrieb "IOhannes m zmölnig" :
>Am 1. Juni 2024 10:50:19 MESZ schrieb Benjamin Wesch 
>: installed
>
>>i also got the dialog that william mentions though. could this be
>>connected?
>
>Hmm. I've never seen these. 

Most likely is a new feature of iOS/macOS 14.
But then Pd-0.54 should be affected as well (unless, maybe, wildly guessing, 
Pd-0.54 was installed with an older version of macOS, and the os upgrade kept 
existing permissions)


mfg.sfg.jfd
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

Am 1. Juni 2024 10:50:19 MESZ schrieb Benjamin Wesch :

>i also got the dialog that william mentions though. could this be
>connected?

Hmm. I've never seen these. 


 are those test versions signed the same way as Pd-0.54-1?

I think so.



mfg.sfg.jfd
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pure Data 0.55-0 test 3 released

[Benjamin Wesch]

> Can you (and Ben too if he's willing) try these...

sure! - here are my results for the new Pd-0.55-0test3a (or did you
actually mean to check Pd-0.55-0test2c once more?) with 'time':
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -send "pd
quit"  0.03s user 0.02s system 2% cpu 2.132 total
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noverbose
 -send  0.02s user 0.03s system 2% cpu 2.202 total
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noverbose
 -send  0.01s user 0.02s system 2% cpu 1.532 total
/Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noverbose
 -send  0.02s user 0.02s system 2% cpu 2.132 total

... there's a bit of variation though - therefore i'm additionally
measuring with repeated runs through hyperfine with a "warmup"
(as learnt from iohannes' tests ... see
https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2024-05/133227.html and
https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2024-05/133242.html ):

hyperfine --warmup 3 -L params '-send "pd quit"','-nosound -send "pd
quit"','-noprefs -send "pd quit"','-nostdpath -send "pd quit"'
'/Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd {params}'

Benchmark 1: /Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd
-send "pd quit"
  Time (mean ± σ):  1.545 s ±  0.007 s[User: 0.017 s, System: 0.015 s]
  Range (min … max):1.530 s …  1.553 s10 runs

Benchmark 2: /Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd
-nosound -send "pd quit"
  Time (mean ± σ):  1.545 s ±  0.008 s[User: 0.017 s, System: 0.015 s]
  Range (min … max):1.531 s …  1.554 s10 runs

 Benchmark 3: /Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd
-noprefs -send "pd quit"
  Time (mean ± σ):  1.524 s ±  0.016 s[User: 0.010 s, System: 0.014 s]
  Range (min … max):1.505 s …  1.559 s10 runs

 Benchmark 4: /Applications/Pd-0.55-0test3a.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd
-nostdpath -send "pd quit"
  Time (mean ± σ):  1.546 s ±  0.015 s[User: 0.017 s, System: 0.015 s]
  Range (min … max):1.529 s …  1.581 s10 runs

... so these results are quite similar (unless started with "-nogui")

i also got the dialog that william mentions though. could this be
connected? are those test versions signed the same way as Pd-0.54-1? i
gave them permission manually in the security settings to avoid the
repeated warnings and didn't remember if i did the same for pd-0.54-1.
but obviously, it's not necessary there (just reinstalled that one to
check, too ... hoping i didn't miss any persisting settings there!).

cheers,
ben

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 7:33 AM Miller Puckette  wrote:
>
> Hmm, sounds like there are more than one problem...
>
> Can you (and Ben too if he's willing) try these...
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -send "pd quit"
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -nosound -send
> "pd quit"
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -noprefs -send
> "pd quit"
>
> time /Pd-0.55-0test2c.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -nostdpath -send
> "pd quit"
>
> I'm grasping at straws here :) Guessing that William's 8-second startup
> and new popup might be something external that's fighting with some Mac
> plist setting in Pd that might have changed.
>
> thanks
> M
>
> On 6/1/24 12:12 AM, William Brent wrote:
> > Thanks for this new release! Unfortunately, I can confirm the extra
> > startup delay for macOS... I tested on an M1 machine with 64GB of
> > memory running macOS 14.5.
> >
> > Also, I get the attached popup every time I open the app, even after
> > clicking "allow." Maybe there's something in macOS preferences that
> > will suppress it? After clicking "allow," it takes a full 8sec for the
> > Pd window to appear. I've only timed this casually with my watch at
> > this point, but after trying multiple times I can say that it's
> > consistently around 8sec for me here. Pd-0.54-1 consistently springs
> > to life in about 1sec for me.
> >
> > I'm happy to run any specific test routines if I can be useful on this.
> > William
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 1:10 PM Miller Puckette
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Test 3 is out.  This should resolve all the trouble we've had with
> > test2
> > except that one tester on MacOS is still finding that Pd 0.55
> > loads way
> > more slowly than 0.54 - I  don't see that happening on my machine
> > and I
> > don't know how many machines will be affected... it might take a
> > while
> > to track this one down, but hopefully it won't affect many
> > people.  If
> > you _do_ notice longer startup times on MacOS please let me (or
> > the Pd
> > list) know - with more data points it migth be easier for me to
> > replicate the problem for myself.
> >
> > as usual: http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm OR
> > https://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm
> >
> > source on github: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data
> >