Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Frank Barknecht]

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:26:07PM -0400, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
> intuitiveness, aliens, whatever. Another consideration within the pd*
> ecosystem is that it is 0-centric, meaning things tend to start with $0
> (patch instance) before they get to $1. Then again, $1 refers to the first
> arg, so you could argue it may be inconsistent... etc. etc. etc.

I always assumed Pd to be rather 1-centric and not 0-centric: There
is no $0 for message boxes, and where abstraction arguments are concerned, $0
(patch instance) in use is really something entirely different from $1...$n
(arguments to an instance given by user).

Also many (most?) command line arguments like -audiodev refer to the first item
in a list with 1 instead of 0, leading to an interesting confustion when they
have meet with the 0-centric outside world like ALSA's device numbering.

So Pd in my view is more similar to Lua, where numbering generally starts at 1
(which actually works well, once you get used to it).

But in the end, it's 

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org__

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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Esteban Viveros]

I'm really really convinced maintaining actual numeration of inlets/outlets
in help patches in cyclone ever more Max use the same numeration. And
it really designed to be different of messaging numeration.

Thanks of everyone for patience :)

Em qui, 17 de mar de 2016 às 19:05, Ivica Bukvic  escreveu:

>
> On Mar 17, 2016 2:03 PM, "Esteban Viveros"  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> If you are determined to update all the docs to reflect this change,
> don't forget the PD_META which currently requires the use of 0 as the first
> inlet. Updating tooltips will also require changes accommodate for this
> alteration.
> >
> >
> > I did not attack me so... Rename in there have some implication? If no,
> I will start to rename...
>
> This is where tooltips pull their documentation information when you hover
> with your mouse over inlets, outlets, or the object itself. These changes
> will require changes in C, GUI, and may also affect compatibility between
> vanilla and pd-l2ork. My advice would be at this point not to worry about
> it and focus on other aspects until we think this through a little bit.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Ico
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/17/2016 1:13 PM, Esteban Viveros wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Roman for explanations.. good trim the edges of naming things
> in order to eliminate future confusion.
> >>>
> >>> Ivica, I'm thinking in order to provide a relatively see and
> understand for help patch user. Is really necessary expose a new user to
> this problematics?
> >>>
> >>> I'm thinking which not every pd user must be a programmer (at least
> initially), and probably be an artist... (perhaps), thinking this I
> understand the principal goal of the user is to make thinks work, and to
> use the send a message to this object he needs do use $1  $2 $3, if he use
> $0 pd will do other thing.. So name outlets in Help from 0 require one more
> step for who are learning many more steps...  (please correct me if I'm
> wrong with regard to the behavior pd)
> >>>
> >>> Finally, open and edit patch by patch I'm already doing.. Rename
> inlets and outlets I can make like meditation! :P
> >>>
> >>> I'm question for these because I know pdL2ork have other libraries and
> have change something like this have consequences. But anyway, if needed I
> can modify some more patches. :) Only it will have some time.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Em qui, 17 de mar de 2016 às 13:26, Ivica Ico Bukvic 
> escreveu:
> 
>  Here's my $0-cents worth. This is an eternal struggle in the
> world'o'comp sci. We need to wrap our heads around the fact that 0 is the
> 1st number in any kind of data container, whether it be value or ordinal
> position. Yet, as humans we prefer 1 to be that first number, reserving 0
> as the special case value. So, you could make the case either way arguing
> for consistency, intuitiveness, aliens, whatever. Another consideration
> within the pd* ecosystem is that it is 0-centric, meaning things tend to
> start with $0 (patch instance) before they get to $1. Then again, $1 refers
> to the first arg, so you could argue it may be inconsistent... etc. etc.
> etc.
> 
>  On the practical side, renaming inlets would mean going through every
> last help file and ensuring it has been updated accordingly, otherwise you
> would be just adding to more confusion as newcomers learn that some help
> files refer to the first inlet as 0 and others as 1...
> 
> 
>  On 3/17/2016 11:49 AM, Esteban Viveros wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm with Porres in Cyclone maintenance working on revision of some
> Help patches.
> >
> > The question is: Why count inlets and outlets from zero if Pd user
> have to call inlets and outlets from $1 $2 $3... ? For help patch user
> don't be more convenient enumerate inlets and outlets starting at number 1?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Ivica Ico Bukvic]

As an alternative idea, perhaps one of the early pd tutorials (e.g. 
introduction) could simply elaborate how the inlets are numbered which 
could be a considerably easier solution.


If you are determined to update all the docs to reflect this change, 
don't forget the PD_META which currently requires the use of 0 as the 
first inlet. Updating tooltips will also require changes accommodate for 
this alteration.


Best,

Ico

On 3/17/2016 1:13 PM, Esteban Viveros wrote:
Thanks Roman for explanations.. good trim the edges of naming things 
in order to eliminate future confusion.


Ivica, I'm thinking in order to provide a relatively see and 
understand for help patch user. Is really necessary expose a new user 
to this problematics?


I'm thinking which not every pd user must be a programmer (at least 
initially), and probably be an artist... (perhaps), thinking this I 
understand the principal goal of the user is to make thinks work, and 
to use the send a message to this object he needs do use $1  $2 $3, if 
he use $0 pd will do other thing.. So name outlets in Help from 0 
require one more step for who are learning many more steps...  (please 
correct me if I'm wrong with regard to the behavior pd)


Finally, open and edit patch by patch I'm already doing.. Rename 
inlets and outlets I can make like meditation! :P


I'm question for these because I know pdL2ork have other libraries and 
have change something like this have consequences. But anyway, if 
needed I can modify some more patches. :) Only it will have some time.


Cheers


Em qui, 17 de mar de 2016 às 13:26, Ivica Ico Bukvic > escreveu:


Here's my $0-cents worth. This is an eternal struggle in the
world'o'comp sci. We need to wrap our heads around the fact that 0
is the 1st number in any kind of data container, whether it be
value or ordinal position. Yet, as humans we prefer 1 to be that
first number, reserving 0 as the special case value. So, you could
make the case either way arguing for consistency, intuitiveness,
aliens, whatever. Another consideration within the pd* ecosystem
is that it is 0-centric, meaning things tend to start with $0
(patch instance) before they get to $1. Then again, $1 refers to
the first arg, so you could argue it may be inconsistent... etc.
etc. etc.

On the practical side, renaming inlets would mean going through
every last help file and ensuring it has been updated accordingly,
otherwise you would be just adding to more confusion as newcomers
learn that some help files refer to the first inlet as 0 and
others as 1...


On 3/17/2016 11:49 AM, Esteban Viveros wrote:

Hi,

I'm with Porres in Cyclone maintenance working on revision of
some Help patches.

The question is: Why count inlets and outlets from zero if Pd
user have to call inlets and outlets from $1 $2 $3... ? For help
patch user don't be more convenient enumerate inlets and outlets
starting at number 1?

Cheers


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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Pagano, Patrick]

?I think this is what Jaron Lanier may call "Lock-in"



Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Audio and Projection Design Faculty
Digital Worlds Institute
University of Florida, USA
(352)294-2020

From: Pd-list <pd-list-boun...@mail.iem.at> on behalf of Ivica Ico Bukvic 
<i...@vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 12:26 PM
To: pd-l...@mail.iem.at
Subject: Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

Here's my $0-cents worth. This is an eternal struggle in the world'o'comp sci. 
We need to wrap our heads around the fact that 0 is the 1st number in any kind 
of data container, whether it be value or ordinal position. Yet, as humans we 
prefer 1 to be that first number, reserving 0 as the special case value. So, 
you could make the case either way arguing for consistency, intuitiveness, 
aliens, whatever. Another consideration within the pd* ecosystem is that it is 
0-centric, meaning things tend to start with $0 (patch instance) before they 
get to $1. Then again, $1 refers to the first arg, so you could argue it may be 
inconsistent... etc. etc. etc.

On the practical side, renaming inlets would mean going through every last help 
file and ensuring it has been updated accordingly, otherwise you would be just 
adding to more confusion as newcomers learn that some help files refer to the 
first inlet as 0 and others as 1...

On 3/17/2016 11:49 AM, Esteban Viveros wrote:
Hi,

I'm with Porres in Cyclone maintenance working on revision of some Help patches.

The question is: Why count inlets and outlets from zero if Pd user have to call 
inlets and outlets from $1 $2 $3... ? For help patch user don't be more 
convenient enumerate inlets and outlets starting at number 1?

Cheers



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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Roman Haefeli]

On Thu, 2016-03-17 at 15:49 +, Esteban Viveros wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I'm with Porres in Cyclone maintenance working on revision of some
> Help patches.
> 
> 
> The question is: Why count inlets and outlets from zero if Pd user
> have to call inlets and outlets from $1 $2 $3... ? For help patch user
> don't be more convenient enumerate inlets and outlets starting at
> number 1?

Inlets and outlets don't have any explicit numbering. Internally - in
the .pd file - they are numbered starting from 0, but this hasn't any
impact on how you specify them in the help-file.

The dollarargs ($1, $2, $3) do not relate to inlets at all, but to the
arguments given to an abstraction.

Am I addressing your question?

Roman



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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Esteban Viveros]

Great. Thanks Jonathan!

Em qui, 17 de mar de 2016 às 18:30, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list <
pd-list@lists.iem.at> escreveu:

> > I did not attack me so... Rename in there have some implication? If no,
> I will start to rename...
>
> Please don't rename them.  Inlets and outlets are numbered starting from
> zero, both in Pd's file format and in dynamic patching:
>
> [connect 0 0 1 0(
> |
> [send this]
>
> [namecanvas this]
>
> This makes a connection from the left-most outlet of the first object
> created
> to the left-most inlet of the second object created.  Both the object
> index and
> xlet index start from zero.
>
> Garrays are zero-indexed as well.
>
> So changing the help patches won't make Pd any more consistent in this
> regard.  In fact it would make it less consistent because you'd have two
> versions of the help patches in the wild.  (And messages to this list show
> that people are still downloading and using Pd-extended long after it's
> been abandoned.)
>
> Short story-- I'm all for improving documentation, all for consistency,
> and all for making anything more accessible and friendly to users.  But
> these proposed
> changes don't achieve those goals.
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2016 2:18 PM, Frank Barknecht 
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:26:07PM -0400, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
> > intuitiveness, aliens, whatever. Another consideration within the pd*
> > ecosystem is that it is 0-centric, meaning things tend to start with $0
> > (patch instance) before they get to $1. Then again, $1 refers to the
> first
> > arg, so you could argue it may be inconsistent... etc. etc. etc.
>
> I always assumed Pd to be rather 1-centric and not 0-centric: There
> is no $0 for message boxes, and where abstraction arguments are concerned,
> $0
> (patch instance) in use is really something entirely different from $1...$n
> (arguments to an instance given by user).
>
> Also many (most?) command line arguments like -audiodev refer to the first
> item
> in a list with 1 instead of 0, leading to an interesting confustion when
> they
> have meet with the 0-centric outside world like ALSA's device numbering.
>
> So Pd in my view is more similar to Lua, where numbering generally starts
> at 1
> (which actually works well, once you get used to it).
>
> But in the end, it's
>
> Ciao
> --
> Frank Barknecht_ __footils.org__
>
>
> ___
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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Esteban Viveros]

Thanks Roman for explanations.. good trim the edges of naming things in
order to eliminate future confusion.

Ivica, I'm thinking in order to provide a relatively see and understand for
help patch user. Is really necessary expose a new user to this problematics?

I'm thinking which not every pd user must be a programmer (at least
initially), and probably be an artist... (perhaps), thinking this I
understand the principal goal of the user is to make thinks work, and to
use the send a message to this object he needs do use $1  $2 $3, if he use
$0 pd will do other thing.. So name outlets in Help from 0 require one more
step for who are learning many more steps...  (please correct me if I'm
wrong with regard to the behavior pd)

Finally, open and edit patch by patch I'm already doing.. Rename inlets and
outlets I can make like meditation! :P

I'm question for these because I know pdL2ork have other libraries and have
change something like this have consequences. But anyway, if needed I can
modify some more patches. :) Only it will have some time.

Cheers


Em qui, 17 de mar de 2016 às 13:26, Ivica Ico Bukvic  escreveu:

> Here's my $0-cents worth. This is an eternal struggle in the world'o'comp
> sci. We need to wrap our heads around the fact that 0 is the 1st number in
> any kind of data container, whether it be value or ordinal position. Yet,
> as humans we prefer 1 to be that first number, reserving 0 as the special
> case value. So, you could make the case either way arguing for consistency,
> intuitiveness, aliens, whatever. Another consideration within the pd*
> ecosystem is that it is 0-centric, meaning things tend to start with $0
> (patch instance) before they get to $1. Then again, $1 refers to the first
> arg, so you could argue it may be inconsistent... etc. etc. etc.
>
> On the practical side, renaming inlets would mean going through every last
> help file and ensuring it has been updated accordingly, otherwise you would
> be just adding to more confusion as newcomers learn that some help files
> refer to the first inlet as 0 and others as 1...
>
>
> On 3/17/2016 11:49 AM, Esteban Viveros wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm with Porres in Cyclone maintenance working on revision of some Help
> patches.
>
> The question is: Why count inlets and outlets from zero if Pd user have to
> call inlets and outlets from $1 $2 $3... ? For help patch user don't be
> more convenient enumerate inlets and outlets starting at number 1?
>
> Cheers
>
>
> ___pd-l...@lists.iem.at mailing 
> list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

> I did not attack me so... Rename in there have some implication? If no, I 
> will start to rename...
Please don't rename them.  Inlets and outlets are numbered starting from 
zero, both in Pd's file format and in dynamic patching:

[connect 0 0 1 0(|[send this]
[namecanvas this]
This makes a connection from the left-most outlet of the first object created 
to the left-most inlet of the second object created.  Both the object index and 
xlet index start from zero.
Garrays are zero-indexed as well.
So changing the help patches won't make Pd any more consistent in this 
regard.  In fact it would make it less consistent because you'd have two 
versions of the help patches in the wild.  (And messages to this list show that 
people are still downloading and using Pd-extended long after it's been 
abandoned.)
Short story-- I'm all for improving documentation, all for consistency, and all 
for making anything more accessible and friendly to users.  But these proposed 
changes don't achieve those goals.
-Jonathan
 

 

On Thursday, March 17, 2016 2:18 PM, Frank Barknecht  
wrote:
 

 Hi,

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:26:07PM -0400, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
> intuitiveness, aliens, whatever. Another consideration within the pd*
> ecosystem is that it is 0-centric, meaning things tend to start with $0
> (patch instance) before they get to $1. Then again, $1 refers to the first
> arg, so you could argue it may be inconsistent... etc. etc. etc.

I always assumed Pd to be rather 1-centric and not 0-centric: There
is no $0 for message boxes, and where abstraction arguments are concerned, $0
(patch instance) in use is really something entirely different from $1...$n
(arguments to an instance given by user).

Also many (most?) command line arguments like -audiodev refer to the first item
in a list with 1 instead of 0, leading to an interesting confustion when they
have meet with the 0-centric outside world like ALSA's device numbering.

So Pd in my view is more similar to Lua, where numbering generally starts at 1
(which actually works well, once you get used to it).

But in the end, it's 

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                                    _ __footils.org__

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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Ivica Ico Bukvic]

Here's my $0-cents worth. This is an eternal struggle in the 
world'o'comp sci. We need to wrap our heads around the fact that 0 is 
the 1st number in any kind of data container, whether it be value or 
ordinal position. Yet, as humans we prefer 1 to be that first number, 
reserving 0 as the special case value. So, you could make the case 
either way arguing for consistency, intuitiveness, aliens, whatever. 
Another consideration within the pd* ecosystem is that it is 0-centric, 
meaning things tend to start with $0 (patch instance) before they get to 
$1. Then again, $1 refers to the first arg, so you could argue it may be 
inconsistent... etc. etc. etc.


On the practical side, renaming inlets would mean going through every 
last help file and ensuring it has been updated accordingly, otherwise 
you would be just adding to more confusion as newcomers learn that some 
help files refer to the first inlet as 0 and others as 1...


On 3/17/2016 11:49 AM, Esteban Viveros wrote:

Hi,

I'm with Porres in Cyclone maintenance working on revision of some 
Help patches.


The question is: Why count inlets and outlets from zero if Pd user 
have to call inlets and outlets from $1 $2 $3... ? For help patch user 
don't be more convenient enumerate inlets and outlets starting at 
number 1?


Cheers


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Re: [PD] Help Patches Layout

[Ivica Bukvic]

On Mar 17, 2016 2:03 PM, "Esteban Viveros"  wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you are determined to update all the docs to reflect this change,
don't forget the PD_META which currently requires the use of 0 as the first
inlet. Updating tooltips will also require changes accommodate for this
alteration.
>
>
> I did not attack me so... Rename in there have some implication? If no, I
will start to rename...

This is where tooltips pull their documentation information when you hover
with your mouse over inlets, outlets, or the object itself. These changes
will require changes in C, GUI, and may also affect compatibility between
vanilla and pd-l2ork. My advice would be at this point not to worry about
it and focus on other aspects until we think this through a little bit.

>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Ico
>>
>>
>> On 3/17/2016 1:13 PM, Esteban Viveros wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Roman for explanations.. good trim the edges of naming things in
order to eliminate future confusion.
>>>
>>> Ivica, I'm thinking in order to provide a relatively see and understand
for help patch user. Is really necessary expose a new user to this
problematics?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking which not every pd user must be a programmer (at least
initially), and probably be an artist... (perhaps), thinking this I
understand the principal goal of the user is to make thinks work, and to
use the send a message to this object he needs do use $1  $2 $3, if he use
$0 pd will do other thing.. So name outlets in Help from 0 require one more
step for who are learning many more steps...  (please correct me if I'm
wrong with regard to the behavior pd)
>>>
>>> Finally, open and edit patch by patch I'm already doing.. Rename inlets
and outlets I can make like meditation! :P
>>>
>>> I'm question for these because I know pdL2ork have other libraries and
have change something like this have consequences. But anyway, if needed I
can modify some more patches. :) Only it will have some time.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>> Em qui, 17 de mar de 2016 às 13:26, Ivica Ico Bukvic 
escreveu:

 Here's my $0-cents worth. This is an eternal struggle in the
world'o'comp sci. We need to wrap our heads around the fact that 0 is the
1st number in any kind of data container, whether it be value or ordinal
position. Yet, as humans we prefer 1 to be that first number, reserving 0
as the special case value. So, you could make the case either way arguing
for consistency, intuitiveness, aliens, whatever. Another consideration
within the pd* ecosystem is that it is 0-centric, meaning things tend to
start with $0 (patch instance) before they get to $1. Then again, $1 refers
to the first arg, so you could argue it may be inconsistent... etc. etc.
etc.

 On the practical side, renaming inlets would mean going through every
last help file and ensuring it has been updated accordingly, otherwise you
would be just adding to more confusion as newcomers learn that some help
files refer to the first inlet as 0 and others as 1...


 On 3/17/2016 11:49 AM, Esteban Viveros wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm with Porres in Cyclone maintenance working on revision of some
Help patches.
>
> The question is: Why count inlets and outlets from zero if Pd user
have to call inlets and outlets from $1 $2 $3... ? For help patch user
don't be more convenient enumerate inlets and outlets starting at number 1?
>
> Cheers
>
>
> ___
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> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

 ___
 Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
 UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
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>>
>>
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