Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
On 19/07/14 14:09, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: RPis are not very powerful, and running them without a desktop (using ssh or similar over ethernet and /etc/rc.local to launch stuff on boot) makes a lot of sense. are you saying it basically doesn't really work for live audio applications with the desktop system on and all? cause, yeah, it seems it can'thandle, but I always thought you guys were doing it with the desktop system and everything I just got into this for curiosity, I don't really need a RPi for anything, just wanted to play with it and see if it could run simple patches. I could eventually use it live, but it wouldn't make sense to run it over ssh with another computer (would rather just use the other computer). Generally ssh is used to program and set things up without needing a desktop on the Pi, especially since Pd needs a GUI to edit but not to run and ssh lets you open the window on a laptop while Pd is running on the (screen- and X-less) Pi. Then the RPi is finally set up to launch whatever program you want running when it boots ... and Pd is well suited to being controlled via buttons or pedals or some connection (say midi) to an instrument or some controller like a BCF2000, or perhaps do something more like an effects box that takes audio in and outputs processed audio. Or possibly it is the controller in some kind of interactive installation or instrument, there are accessible input and output control options for all kinds of sensors to be used and in this situation a screen and keyboard just get in the way ... make trouble and take up space. RPis certainly are not very useful if you really need a laptop with screen, keyboard, desktop and such to run and control what you are using .. but they can be useful in this case networked so they are running say a projector or some speakers (or even lights or motors or whatever) and are being cued or controlled from a program on a laptop somewhere. Especially if you want several projectors or need to control things spread over a wide area from a single program. Maybe you have the laptop running audio and want several projections, or want to use the GPIO features which are not available on a laptop. Pis are a compact, cheap, low-power way to do this (if they are up to the task you have in mind ... Udoo or Beaglebone or such for a bit more $$ are much more powerful devices for similar needs if the RPi can't do it). Simon ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
RPis are not very powerful, and running them without a desktop (using ssh or similar over ethernet and /etc/rc.local to launch stuff on boot) makes a lot of sense. are you saying it basically doesn't really work for live audio applications with the desktop system on and all? cause, yeah, it seems it can'thandle, but I always thought you guys were doing it with the desktop system and everything I just got into this for curiosity, I don't really need a RPi for anything, just wanted to play with it and see if it could run simple patches. I could eventually use it live, but it wouldn't make sense to run it over ssh with another computer (would rather just use the other computer). cheers 2014-07-04 3:34 GMT-03:00 Simon Wise via Pd-list pd-list@lists.iem.at: On 03/07/14 22:55, Alexandre Torres Porres via Pd-list wrote: Hi IOhannes, I read your other answer giving more info on why it could be outdated even if released a couple of weeks ago. I think I get, although I'd still assume or don't see why pd wouldn't be available at apt-get if it were up to date. The meaning of 'stable' in debian is that it does not change, and apt-get fetches packages that you wish to install from this base (it would be possible for someone to maintain the latest pd as a raspbian package, but it is almost as easy to install from Millers site so no-one bothers ... the fact that pd is in debian means it gets tested on ARM and the version in 'stable' automatically gets built as part of raspbian with no extra work, which was especially nice when raspbian first came out). This system allows distributions like raspbian to have a predictable base that they can then take the time required to adapt for their purposes, and it allows sites like Millers to build the up-to-date versions within that known framework so that they 'just work' (and will still work a few weeks later) because all the stuff it depends on does not keep changing versions every day. In the case of raspbian they have compiled debian with lots of modifications to suit their particular CPU and have added and keep working on lots of extra stuff that is specifically for their GPU and peripherals etc. They then maintain raspbian with all these added things updated from time to time but staying with 'stable' as the base. Presumably they will move to jessie sometime for their main version (probably not till they get it tested and running cleanly sometime after it is 'frozen' in advance of it becoming the new stable ... this freeze would be expected reasonably soon, debian does this on a two year cycle). But that does involve lots of work and lots of testing since they are building the whole of debian for an architecture which is halfway between the two official debian architectures (the CPU is a rather old version of ARM, but with floating point hardware). Chasing all the changes in the latest versions of everything all the time would be very hard work. As for menus or desktop icons ... it is just a little text file called puredata.desktop containing something like: [Desktop Entry] Name=Pure Data Comment=Visual dataflow programming platform for multimedia Comment[ca]=Plataforma de programació visual per aplicacions multimèdia Comment[de]=Grafische Datenflussprogrammierung für Multimedia Comment[es]=Plataforma de programación visual para aplicaciones multimedia Comment[fr]=Plateforme de programmation visuelle pour applications multimédia Comment[it]=Piattaforma di programmazione visuale per applicazioni multimedia Comment[pt]=Plataforma de programação visuais para multimedia Exec=pd -noadc %F Terminal=false Type=Application Icon=puredata.xpm Categories=AudioVideo;Audio;Video;Development MimeType=text/x-puredata;application/x-maxmsp;text/x-maxmsp; StartupNotify=false using the appropriate Exec= line, and an appropriate file for Icon= if you add this file to the folder /usr/share/applications then it should turn up in menus, or if you put it on the desktop it should show up as an icon you can drag and drop to. But the RPis are not very powerful, and running them without a desktop (using ssh or similar over ethernet and /etc/rc.local to launch stuff on boot) makes a lot of sense. Simon ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
On Thu, 2014-07-03 at 01:24 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres via Pd-list wrote: 3- Pd 0.45 is complaining about ALSA input_error (snd_pcm_open): no such file directory, but it still works making noise and all. What does it mean, how do I fix it? It means what it says. The RPi has no audio input and thus there is no ALSA input device. Pd complains about it, because by default it tries to open both input and output. Probably you can get rid of the error with the flag -noadc. Roman ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
On 07/03/2014 06:24 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres via Pd-list wrote: Hi there, I was treating this in a different mail thread, sorry, but let me go ahead and start this one. questions 1- Why can't I get vanilla 0.45 from apt-get? I get 0.43 :P as said before: because you are using an outdated (even if it's the official one) raspbian, based on Debian/wheezy. in addition to what i said before, i just noted, that there is also a raspbian version available, that is based on Debian/jessie, and this version will include Pd-0.45.5¹ if there are no images available for raspbian/jessie, you could try upgrading your current image by doing the following (as root): 1. in /etc/apt/sources.list (and probably /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*) replace all occurences of wheezy with jessie 2. run aptitude update 3. run aptitude full-upgrade this is utterly untested, but the standard procedure to upgrade a Debian based system. mgfasr IOhannes ¹ http://archive.raspbian.org/raspbian/pool/main/p/puredata/ 2- I downloaded from miller's site and have 0.45 extracting and alive, I'm running it from a folder at pi/home, but how do I put it in the menu bar? Really linux noobs here... 3- Pd 0.45 is complaining about ALSA input_error (snd_pcm_open): no such file directory, but it still works making noise and all. What does it mean, how do I fix it? Thanks ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
you are using an outdated (even if it's the official one) raspbian I got the latest image from noobs, released a couple of weeks ago, then I installed raspbian from it. So this is supposed to be out of date huh? And then... well, I did apt-get update and everything and was assuming this was an issue related to apt-get, not the image system. cheers 2014-07-03 4:27 GMT-03:00 IOhannes m zmölnig pd-list@lists.iem.at: On 07/03/2014 06:24 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres via Pd-list wrote: Hi there, I was treating this in a different mail thread, sorry, but let me go ahead and start this one. questions 1- Why can't I get vanilla 0.45 from apt-get? I get 0.43 :P as said before: because you are using an outdated (even if it's the official one) raspbian, based on Debian/wheezy. in addition to what i said before, i just noted, that there is also a raspbian version available, that is based on Debian/jessie, and this version will include Pd-0.45.5¹ if there are no images available for raspbian/jessie, you could try upgrading your current image by doing the following (as root): 1. in /etc/apt/sources.list (and probably /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*) replace all occurences of wheezy with jessie 2. run aptitude update 3. run aptitude full-upgrade this is utterly untested, but the standard procedure to upgrade a Debian based system. mgfasr IOhannes ¹ http://archive.raspbian.org/raspbian/pool/main/p/puredata/ 2- I downloaded from miller's site and have 0.45 extracting and alive, I'm running it from a folder at pi/home, but how do I put it in the menu bar? Really linux noobs here... 3- Pd 0.45 is complaining about ALSA input_error (snd_pcm_open): no such file directory, but it still works making noise and all. What does it mean, how do I fix it? Thanks ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
Hi IOhannes, I read your other answer giving more info on why it could be outdated even if released a couple of weeks ago. I think I get, although I'd still assume or don't see why pd wouldn't be available at apt-get if it were up to date. Anyway, the extra packages are GEM and other stuff, so not bonk~/expr~ Well, I got it from miller's site anyway, no problem with that, just need to know how to put it into the menu bar, and I'd appreciate if anyone could help me with the warning *ALSA input_error (snd_pcm_open): no such file director* thanks 2014-07-03 9:49 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com: you are using an outdated (even if it's the official one) raspbian I got the latest image from noobs, released a couple of weeks ago, then I installed raspbian from it. So this is supposed to be out of date huh? And then... well, I did apt-get update and everything and was assuming this was an issue related to apt-get, not the image system. cheers 2014-07-03 4:27 GMT-03:00 IOhannes m zmölnig pd-list@lists.iem.at: On 07/03/2014 06:24 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres via Pd-list wrote: Hi there, I was treating this in a different mail thread, sorry, but let me go ahead and start this one. questions 1- Why can't I get vanilla 0.45 from apt-get? I get 0.43 :P as said before: because you are using an outdated (even if it's the official one) raspbian, based on Debian/wheezy. in addition to what i said before, i just noted, that there is also a raspbian version available, that is based on Debian/jessie, and this version will include Pd-0.45.5¹ if there are no images available for raspbian/jessie, you could try upgrading your current image by doing the following (as root): 1. in /etc/apt/sources.list (and probably /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*) replace all occurences of wheezy with jessie 2. run aptitude update 3. run aptitude full-upgrade this is utterly untested, but the standard procedure to upgrade a Debian based system. mgfasr IOhannes ¹ http://archive.raspbian.org/raspbian/pool/main/p/puredata/ 2- I downloaded from miller's site and have 0.45 extracting and alive, I'm running it from a folder at pi/home, but how do I put it in the menu bar? Really linux noobs here... 3- Pd 0.45 is complaining about ALSA input_error (snd_pcm_open): no such file directory, but it still works making noise and all. What does it mean, how do I fix it? Thanks ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-07-03 14:49, Alexandre Torres Porres via Pd-list wrote: you are using an outdated (even if it's the official one) raspbian I got the latest image from noobs, released a couple of weeks ago, then I installed raspbian from it. So this is supposed to be out of date huh? And yes most likely this gets you an outdated system. at least looking at [1], it is quite clear that the raspbian image is still based debian/wheezy (even though released last week). and debian/wheezy comes with Pd-0.43, even if you find a bugfix release from 2030. fgmasdr IOhannes then... well, I did apt-get update and everything and was assuming this was an issue related to apt-get, not the image system. no. aptitude (and it's duller brother apt-get) will manage the packages, as configured for the installed system. afaik, Debian *never* does an automated upgrade from one Debian release to another, you always have to first tell your system, that you now want to install packages from the next release (which you do by editing the sources.list file) $ aptitude update will search the current distribution for updated packages. for a stable release (such as wheezy) this means, that you will get security related bugfix, but nothing else. fgasmdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTtVeQAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4VQQP/i3AujdOb2B/ePFzM7lFkCB/ W+Op1n9mkZmrU5zXA1G8IMypyYOW5h0fsfHHVW52LkTpwqzHizdYRIdrLlkLK6c9 CmHOuc0U81fL+4jFi+66hQp0ez5pC7vNy+tmdgUw9EA8Gtdx3E2AjDX2Jz1Mtx5o nbunzwvnYUhyf4d9EcpgGmfBSIBolCspJS/59W4yxESH0VKFi+aDnoYWWj5KJEy4 NrLjqCP5GbD4TBinzK/uSGKuFzvMUzhX+jJStgizKsaCqD57rxILkba0mr/WtLzZ jYGIpQa8QwhxamINXfswcFdY/K8/WOmNaXWcZYiPbjlHKFg38lsmoHRhrXcciUZ9 4NhT117T94qDO9389hU/e8IlCYhn6ezhBD6FxOK1CJOb3y61fpnpl0amV5xRZAGU kcSNoVmLzQwEC0fcPdFsuV7vCMICsReC9daJsFfoOo3vyWilQi4Mzn6XbCjg2yAI X7WweNJWhjj4/ad5ANWo1kmwRGhc2UO4qFdloYzesKVymi5FN0RpUZ2BumTPhoSV mNA1ib90MSoxfCUa6SGhIiUH/uax2sswYeBSPyyEJU87sW1GKjbCNIDZDLLkQWL7 Mksd18f0DDnrK1LZkU6YUUsgDK58Tg543EQ+o86qp2P+U/b2FOw3D7pVnrz/XKl4 JC+MMmFrtsqLz8fn/ZME =DBHn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-07-03 14:55, Alexandre Torres Porres via Pd-list wrote: Hi IOhannes, I read your other answer giving more info on why it could be outdated even if released a couple of weeks ago. I think I get, although I'd still assume or don't see why pd wouldn't be available at apt-get if it were up to date. see my other email. Anyway, the extra packages are GEM and other stuff, so not bonk~/expr~ then you should have said so. traditionally, Pd-vanilla comes with an extra/ folder, where you can find bonk~/expr~/..., hence i was under the impression that this is what you got. in any case: the puredata Debian package will suggest/recommend to install a few other packages (aubio, csound, gem, pdp, zexy). those are purely optional, and you can either uninstall them, or configure apt-get to not install suggestions/recommendations. Well, I got it from miller's site anyway, no problem with that, just need to know how to put it into the menu bar, and I'd appreciate if anyone could help me with the warning *ALSA input_error (snd_pcm_open): no such file director* as the raspberry doesn't have an audio input, you might want to disable it. $ pd -noadc (or disable the audio input in Pd's audio settings). fgamsdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTtVjYAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4tj8P/2/x0rToLkXxGG6VuIMi3s+B teUBbMJK9YoLB5P+ZMOysRPAkkKZf2nvnM0c2eHyXDVo8QZebofncKcx2WOULCrn tMQMaUSh6AGNtVyWAgH3M447BsV5ua67jfz1sRoEPXZo4+BkX82AEu0iMroVjG4N ozn9QucxzUM+ZGD34gR+UA4t5kxyh6WQXMl+x/8JWuXUawo+X5ZiANXC5UOJ7Fqa zeMTR77AwpwfBU4wGcPs8LW6WTfNr0xTVhKcCNGxdzkeBG8mJuFGVJvrE0QTMyLE TtnvctWthC8K6k/x7HCxhLcVdEniCoN85w05fHpaFQV/U4UJ5tcLDLmtWLf4S0uY hHo9DCs1fDx/1mMUQen2SPIntpcXVI1Y49lnXhW+XjryFmcUzk5KfS8/6I4K3wdw BVwqzYbBM6qJfY9TJnnCwZ6UmXF9lBOP7KI1zeHaPGzi4HHj3pT3TnqiT9ANYVdj swyw07aunR4kg9QfAabV6NF/9cgxI3KE1cbHRb0Xb62uhWOdvbU5Vfv6SAfP5O0O Z34+cMHy1aW2M1W2ZqcTUzB7zolvS5lkV2aauXUEdcC7ArbRXYIlHdx5Vwis+ruB LjB9g15fViSHFZN1MsMVCBpVJZjsMaFifLOcEIq5ZTzqXuWHMzMB2MKnJRKgkrz4 RZrRGfbZ9dhNAn6xv9f5 =fVJq -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-07-03 15:16, IOhannes m zmoelnig via Pd-list wrote: at least looking at [1], it is quite clear that the raspbian image is [1] http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTtVjwAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4RbYQAIlKuE66dSkycRS1olLieNXt XIaPjG4j/8XGfi0iJfWvEdHWvbjC/hKnQ7W+KBkPXtiOX7ClADwXKT7NiGXpNJDD ggKSVnxJixkvH5qXqdUa0Eg3npBwfx4WQoUlVQ4A6R2OT08r2FS60u/pkNGoae0a sw0bwH35Z9SqTp6ACoqkbfWRxh/lfQbSRE6h2omL39aWV2rob/igKx8obtcZMnRB r4s1kQJd3kEhL1VFmbOBGjfh5YQLfxFsi6+UEPwhoLjiZ1AFk5upkqIzuaYEPmcW YNFYSon1gpndXrfPDHskLVGcxiML4NddRQSgIrVAwsursmt044JC5kNCi6smiwQk kyex5st+gyLzLbqySdItzpwL7J3CL6HLipIXJ7x4Qwvi7FtDmNEghy8hiyqyx1IT Fy87rOsv3MzDUF9DHbRmca+5QTkasN9dN5mUvB5mBikq84bI2bjnE2tuD1q1WaAc 2827pz6CpT455u4XVPc8pgSfxSm/CQh8G/8bj1ErZjjkX7lOQZQFnqtXmPPYX1TR CwHgNljt5o9OGtLzn1zrQbNJ8+bhye9s0kRl2jR8OMsZaMrWyndiqWuLHx/2lsUq ZRLbHO8QQ+hUGOrfhPnlhz7FMX3sp8P0ZL5w3LTCGha5lK+mzs6UFWfsCHGPM/NJ 2ircjugdBn3Q1FWGb/0N =cPYk -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
Thanks for the lessons, now I got the picture. Anyway, getting 0.45 from miller's site works just fine I guess. Only annoyance is not getting it into the menu bar and automatically loading Pd when clicking on patch files. I'm assuming that should be an easy thing to do, any thoughts anyone? you can either uninstall them, or configure apt-get to not install suggestions/recommendations. cool, out of curiosity, how can you do you configure it to not install suggestions/recommendations and, more importantly, how could I install from apt-get specific packages into Pd 0.45 I downloaded from miller's site? cheers 2014-07-03 10:21 GMT-03:00 IOhannes m zmoelnig via Pd-list pd-list@lists.iem.at: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-07-03 15:16, IOhannes m zmoelnig via Pd-list wrote: at least looking at [1], it is quite clear that the raspbian image is [1] http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTtVjwAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4RbYQAIlKuE66dSkycRS1olLieNXt XIaPjG4j/8XGfi0iJfWvEdHWvbjC/hKnQ7W+KBkPXtiOX7ClADwXKT7NiGXpNJDD ggKSVnxJixkvH5qXqdUa0Eg3npBwfx4WQoUlVQ4A6R2OT08r2FS60u/pkNGoae0a sw0bwH35Z9SqTp6ACoqkbfWRxh/lfQbSRE6h2omL39aWV2rob/igKx8obtcZMnRB r4s1kQJd3kEhL1VFmbOBGjfh5YQLfxFsi6+UEPwhoLjiZ1AFk5upkqIzuaYEPmcW YNFYSon1gpndXrfPDHskLVGcxiML4NddRQSgIrVAwsursmt044JC5kNCi6smiwQk kyex5st+gyLzLbqySdItzpwL7J3CL6HLipIXJ7x4Qwvi7FtDmNEghy8hiyqyx1IT Fy87rOsv3MzDUF9DHbRmca+5QTkasN9dN5mUvB5mBikq84bI2bjnE2tuD1q1WaAc 2827pz6CpT455u4XVPc8pgSfxSm/CQh8G/8bj1ErZjjkX7lOQZQFnqtXmPPYX1TR CwHgNljt5o9OGtLzn1zrQbNJ8+bhye9s0kRl2jR8OMsZaMrWyndiqWuLHx/2lsUq ZRLbHO8QQ+hUGOrfhPnlhz7FMX3sp8P0ZL5w3LTCGha5lK+mzs6UFWfsCHGPM/NJ 2ircjugdBn3Q1FWGb/0N =cPYk -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] installing latest pd vanilla on RPI
Hi there, I was treating this in a different mail thread, sorry, but let me go ahead and start this one. questions 1- Why can't I get vanilla 0.45 from apt-get? I get 0.43 :P 2- I downloaded from miller's site and have 0.45 extracting and alive, I'm running it from a folder at pi/home, but how do I put it in the menu bar? Really linux noobs here... 3- Pd 0.45 is complaining about ALSA input_error (snd_pcm_open): no such file directory, but it still works making noise and all. What does it mean, how do I fix it? Thanks ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
