Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
APS is a pretty good system. You would think the cameras makers and film makers could improve the 35mm film cassette design. DX happened a long time ago and no improvement beyond that. You would think they would have looked at 35mm and decided that something better could be designed in cameras and the cassette. Of course that would obsolete all of our current 35mm cameras, but that's progress. APS is a pretty good system. Jim A. From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:31:06 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident) - Original Message - From: Peifer, William Subject: RE: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident) Bill Robb wrote: [Everything I always wanted to know about APS processors, and more. Snipped] Hi Bill, Gee, I get the feeling that some of those APS customers really get in your shorts ;-) HAR!! Must be shortly after our Fireworks Day... Regarding the APS system design, to me it shows all the manifestations of being designed by a commitee with a bad mandate. The status indicator is fairly easy to see, being a white indicator inside a black window. Here is a drawing of an APS cartridge, with some expanatory stuff: http://www.austral.addr.com/photo-APS/ To me, I really don't think it is so much poor eyesight, as just simple carelessness on the part of the consumer, or over harriedness on the part of the lab. The Fuji cartridges have a white stripe with the instructions printed in black, but the instructions really are very small. My mid 40's eyes have some problems with making them readable. OTOH, every camera comes with an owners manual. I think they would have been better to make a 110/126 style film cartridge, rather than what they came up with, though this would have obviated the possibility of mid roll film changes. With the lack of choices in APS (there really is only 4 different films from Kodak, and Agfa, and 3 from Konica, Fuji and Imation), I don't think this would have been such a loss. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
Bill Robb wrote: [Everything I always wanted to know about APS processors, and more. Snipped] Hi Bill, Gee, I get the feeling that some of those APS customers really get in your shorts ;-) HAR!! Seriously, thanks very much for your detailed note. Kodak's decision (or whoever's, since APS format development was a joint industry venture, IIRC) to coat the light-sensitive layers and magnetic recording layers right on top of each other probably makes great sense from a manufacturability standpoint, but it sounds like a real nightmare from the point of view of the processing lab. Credit card readers in department stores get dirty just from the dirt and grease from people's wallets, hands, etc. I can't imagine smearing those magnetic read heads with used developer, bleach, fixer, etc., etc. Yuck!! You're right, of course, about the fact that it's really the responsibility of the customer to read the status indicator on the cartridge. I wasn't aware -- until list members pointed it out in their replies -- that these cartridges even had human-readable indicators. I agree that the customer really needs to take responsibility for identifying the status of his/her rolls. I'd guess that APS film is probably most likely to get dropped off at busy one-hour minilabs, and that even if the lab tech felt the need/desire to babysit the customer, the large volume of incoming and outgoing film at such a lab would increase the likelihood that an unexposed roll would be run through the machine, if the lab tech is the only one looking at this status indicator. Unfortunately, I suspect that there are a large number of APS users who aren't even aware that there's a status indicator on the cartridge. After all, what's the likelihood that any given PS user will ever bother to read the manual? (For that matter, how many times have we seen replies on this list advising a high-end Pentax SLR user to RTFM?) Your comments got me thinking about something that I believe product designers generally call human factors engineering. I remember a recent note to the list -- I think Bruce Dayton posted it -- regarding APS cameras and the demographic group to which they appeal. He stated that APS seems to be popular not with a young demographic (like you see in the Kodak commercials), but with a much older demographic. Perhaps older folks who don't have quite as much manual dexterity as they used to, or who don't have quite as sharp of eyesight for close-up, high-resolution inspection as they used to. Drop-in cartridge loading and automatic film threading would probably be regarded by someone in this demographic as a highly desirable feature. Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment The question that comes to my mind, as a devil's advocate, is the following: Can we expect the average member of this demographic to have sufficiently good eyesight -- without putting on reading glasses or holding the roll close to a bright light source -- to distinguish the circle, half-circle, x-mark, or rectangle status indicator on the outside of the cartridge? OK, these aren't cryptic, but then they're not intuitive either. I'll freely admit that someone who shoots a couple rolls of APS film a month will probably be quite familiar with what they mean without the need to look at the written instructions, but what about the user who only goes to the mini-lab half a dozen times a year? If my assumptions about the demographics are correct (and maybe they're not), I'd guess that at least some of the typical APS users might have difficulty reading the printed instructions on the cartridge, and I wonder if they might even have difficulty recognizing -- without close inspection -- that there are even printed instructions there in the first place. How about print contrast? Kodak's black on yellow is probably quite readable, but what about Fuji's color scheme? Black on green, right?? Probably not quite as readable, I'd guess. Don't get me wrong -- I think Kodak/Fuji/et al. probably did a good job designing this status indicator and the printed instructions, given the size limitations of the cartridge. I just wonder if there's an opportunity here to improve the status indicator to make it more readable for older, weaker eyes? Also, is there a product advertising opportunity here to maybe better educate the customer on the special features engineered into the product? Well, enough rambling. Must dig out my Kodak photoguide and review the information on shooting fireworks and cityscapes at night. Cheers, Bill Peifer Rochester, NY - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
- Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 6:21 PM Subject: Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident) . However, your assumption about the consumer not being able to tell the difference seems correct. This is because people are basically really stupid, and not because of any inscrutable film cartridge secrets. AMEN snip... The customer has the option of looking at the cassette before coming to the lab, though. Generally, if you want me to process it, I am going to process it. It is the consumer's responsibility to use the stuff correctly. My responsibility is to have my machines in good shape to do the job, not to baby-sit morons. Agreed!! Bill KG4LOV [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
OTOH, some of the attitudes expressed toward film customers can only accelerate the adoption of digital. Geoff 8:^) - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
- Original Message - From: Geoffgo Subject: Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident) OTOH, some of the attitudes expressed toward film customers can only accelerate the adoption of digital. Sure, and these same morons will then be asking me to make 4R prints from 29kb jpg files. You mistake the expression of fact for attitude. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
- Original Message - From: Peifer, William Subject: RE: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident) Bill Robb wrote: [Everything I always wanted to know about APS processors, and more. Snipped] Hi Bill, Gee, I get the feeling that some of those APS customers really get in your shorts ;-) HAR!! Must be shortly after our Fireworks Day... Regarding the APS system design, to me it shows all the manifestations of being designed by a commitee with a bad mandate. The status indicator is fairly easy to see, being a white indicator inside a black window. Here is a drawing of an APS cartridge, with some expanatory stuff: http://www.austral.addr.com/photo-APS/ To me, I really don't think it is so much poor eyesight, as just simple carelessness on the part of the consumer, or over harriedness on the part of the lab. The Fuji cartridges have a white stripe with the instructions printed in black, but the instructions really are very small. My mid 40's eyes have some problems with making them readable. OTOH, every camera comes with an owners manual. I think they would have been better to make a 110/126 style film cartridge, rather than what they came up with, though this would have obviated the possibility of mid roll film changes. With the lack of choices in APS (there really is only 4 different films from Kodak, and Agfa, and 3 from Konica, Fuji and Imation), I don't think this would have been such a loss. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
On 2 Jul 2002 at 7:43, Peifer, William [OCDUS] wrote: Of course this does bring up an additional question. Is it generally the case that the APS mini-lab processing machine cannot tell the difference between an exposed and an unexposed roll? The APS cartridge provides a visual indicator of film status, unexposed, partially exposed, full exposed and processed, there is also a coded foil visible on the outside of the canister that should be able to be read by any compliant processor. Cheers, Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
On 2 Jul 2002 at 7:23, Stan Halpin wrote: Bill - everything I've read says NOT, repeat, NOT to carry your film through the metal detectors. You are more likely to have your film suffer damage that way. And do NOT pack film in a check-in bag. The safest inspection is by hand, but the check-on bag x-ray seems fairly benign. The effect is cumulative, so you need to take a different approach on a long trip with many stopovers and many passes through the machine (ask for hand inspection, or buy the film on site, or at least process your film on site as you can) vs. a non-stop out-and-back trip where you could pretty safely just pass the film through the x-ray. Stan, A metal detector cannot damage photographic film and the magnetic field produced by the detector is simply too weak to cause any damage to magnetic storage media. Cheers, Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: APS film -- exposed or not? (was RE: Carry-on inspection of film -- and an unfortunate incident)
Hi again folks, Again, many thanks for your replies on x-ray fogging, APS film cartridge construction, and visible (to the consumer) differences between exposed and unexposed APS cartridges. Once again, I've learned something new thanks to the collective wisdom and experience of the PDMLers. As usual, much appreciated! Bill Peifer Rochester, NY - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
