Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
I'm not missing any point. I did the same things when I wasn't running my photographic business, when I was working 90 and 100 hour weeks as an engineer in high tech and traveling three weeks out of five. Suspect review opinions are, to me, simply poor information that does not help me select equipment. I don't care about it, it means nothing of any significance. Good information takes work on the part of the person trying to get it. More work for some than others, that's true, but there's nothing I can do about that. I spend quite a bit of time tracking down information when I'm doing research: my sources of informal review and recommendation are not so very different from anyone else's. I just push them harder and more aggressively when i want to know something. And I usually buy equipment LONG after it's been in the field, usually just before it has become obsoleted by successor products ... on purpose so that I have more information to learn with before making a choice. It is extremely rare that I buy products which are brand new in production. In your example below, how do you know the Canon produces poor quality JPEGs? DPR said the same of the *ist D, *ist DS and K10D. I know all three of those can produce excellent JPEGs. I don't know anything to proves the Canon doesn't with a knowledgeable user. I'm personally not concerned with novices and their issues: not that I don't sympathize, but they're not the focus of my comments. This mailing list was. People motivated enough to be participants on a camera oriented mailing list, such as this one, are not "novices". They may not be professional photographers, but they have much more knowledge about cameras than what I consider to be novices do. (The Panasonic L1 is a 7.5Mpixel resolution camera, with the first generation Panasonic NMOS 4/3 System sensor.) Godfrey On May 16, 2008, at 4:11 PM, John Coyle wrote: > Again, Godfrey, I think you miss the point. As a working > photographer you > probably have many more sources of informal review and > recommendation than > do others such as myself who do have to spend most of their time on > non-photographic pursuits, who live in an area where reliable photo > shops > are almost non-existent (there is only one in my city that I would > bother > with, out of a total of three camera dealers) and where the push to > buy > Canon first and Nikon second would be almost irresistible for > someone new to > the craft. > > I do not find specifications alone to be necessarily the best > resource for > decision-making, and I consider myself reasonably well-informed as > to what I > would like in a serious camera. The emphasis on pixel count for > example, > would steer a novice to the Canon at 12.2 megapixels against your > Panasonic > at IIRC, 10: but the Canon produces really bad jpegs, and it is > unlikely > this would be discovered by handling in the dealers. > > Regards > > John > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
Again, Godfrey, I think you miss the point. As a working photographer you probably have many more sources of informal review and recommendation than do others such as myself who do have to spend most of their time on non-photographic pursuits, who live in an area where reliable photo shops are almost non-existent (there is only one in my city that I would bother with, out of a total of three camera dealers) and where the push to buy Canon first and Nikon second would be almost irresistible for someone new to the craft. I do not find specifications alone to be necessarily the best resource for decision-making, and I consider myself reasonably well-informed as to what I would like in a serious camera. The emphasis on pixel count for example, would steer a novice to the Canon at 12.2 megapixels against your Panasonic at IIRC, 10: but the Canon produces really bad jpegs, and it is unlikely this would be discovered by handling in the dealers. Regards John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Godfrey DiGiorgi Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 4:29 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test I'm a cinema fan. I read a lot of reviews. I go to a lot of films. More than 70% of the time, my impression of a particular film is VASTLY different from the critics'/pundits' impressions ... If I listened to their impressions, I wouldn't ever know that. Similarly, when it comes to camera equipment, I find my experience in using the equipment seems to be VASTLY different from the reviews I read. However, it is often in alignment with the views of a couple of friends whose opinions I respect. As a consequence, I tend to buy at the trailing edge of the innovation curve, look at reviews to uncover what the manufacturers publish regards the specifications of the equipment, and talk mostly to my knowledgable, credible friends regards what works for them and why rather than reading magazines and web review sites for the opinions of people whom I do not know. I never buy *anything* I haven't at least handled in a store several times, if I can possibly help it, and if I do I make sure I buy it from a source which supports free customer satisfaction return/exchange. I really don't give a damn what the magazine or web reviewers have to say about equipment. I read their reviews for the specs and data that they collect and ignore their analysis and opinions completely. The review press gave the Panasonic L1 a very lukewarm review. I bought it because I expected the Leica design lens might be pretty good and didn't know what to expect from the body. To my delight, the camera is FAR more competent than any of the review press ever gave it credit for ... I sold two photos I made with it within a week that more than paid for the camera ... and the second one I bought as a backup as well. So when I see a magazine give a good, or bad, review for a camera, I laugh at their opinion. I learn as much as I can about equipment prior to buying by reading everything I can ... but I'm looking for specifications and data, not review opinions. Then I seek out a source to borrow or test the camera myself prior to buying. And then I buy and use it heavily within the return period to see whether I really really want to keep it. As I said, the only reason I can think of to get upset about a magazine or web review being negative is that you work for Pentax marketing and are trying to promote camera sales. As a photographer looking for equipment to make photograph, the reviews are next to meaningless at best. Godfrey On May 15, 2008, at 5:42 PM, John Coyle wrote: > Not sure where you are coming from with this comment Godfrey: > however, I > would reflect that, were I in the market for a new camera, and had no > existing brand loyalty, I would be reading reviews in what is > basically a > well-respected magazine, considered to be the leader in it's field > in the UK > at least, and would probably be guided by their reviews in making my > purchasing decision. What is important is that the bottom-line > summary (the > percentage rating) should better indicate the quality of the item > reviewed > than I think this does. A camera and lens combination that cannot > produce > photos of an acceptable quality under conditions which will be > normal for > many potential users does not merit a rating of 86% , in my > opinion. It is > a matter of objectivity: my experience in reading this particular > magazine > for more than forty years is that it's reviews do tend to indicate > bias > towards particular manufacturers, and often those they do not favour > will > have their products reviewed in a very negative way: minor issues > will be > highli
Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
I am a cinema fan too. I still have to read reviews about the movies to see if does it worths to pay the price of the ticket. And about cameras? I can't afford to buy a camera or a lens that I am not satisfied. I have to think 100 times and read 100 reviews about the 2 or 3 lens that comes into my interest. I simply can't take the risk to choose the wrong one. So I need to rely on other's impressions... that's why these reviews are a must. Cheers, .t -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
I'm a cinema fan. I read a lot of reviews. I go to a lot of films. More than 70% of the time, my impression of a particular film is VASTLY different from the critics'/pundits' impressions ... If I listened to their impressions, I wouldn't ever know that. Similarly, when it comes to camera equipment, I find my experience in using the equipment seems to be VASTLY different from the reviews I read. However, it is often in alignment with the views of a couple of friends whose opinions I respect. As a consequence, I tend to buy at the trailing edge of the innovation curve, look at reviews to uncover what the manufacturers publish regards the specifications of the equipment, and talk mostly to my knowledgable, credible friends regards what works for them and why rather than reading magazines and web review sites for the opinions of people whom I do not know. I never buy *anything* I haven't at least handled in a store several times, if I can possibly help it, and if I do I make sure I buy it from a source which supports free customer satisfaction return/exchange. I really don't give a damn what the magazine or web reviewers have to say about equipment. I read their reviews for the specs and data that they collect and ignore their analysis and opinions completely. The review press gave the Panasonic L1 a very lukewarm review. I bought it because I expected the Leica design lens might be pretty good and didn't know what to expect from the body. To my delight, the camera is FAR more competent than any of the review press ever gave it credit for ... I sold two photos I made with it within a week that more than paid for the camera ... and the second one I bought as a backup as well. So when I see a magazine give a good, or bad, review for a camera, I laugh at their opinion. I learn as much as I can about equipment prior to buying by reading everything I can ... but I'm looking for specifications and data, not review opinions. Then I seek out a source to borrow or test the camera myself prior to buying. And then I buy and use it heavily within the return period to see whether I really really want to keep it. As I said, the only reason I can think of to get upset about a magazine or web review being negative is that you work for Pentax marketing and are trying to promote camera sales. As a photographer looking for equipment to make photograph, the reviews are next to meaningless at best. Godfrey On May 15, 2008, at 5:42 PM, John Coyle wrote: > Not sure where you are coming from with this comment Godfrey: > however, I > would reflect that, were I in the market for a new camera, and had no > existing brand loyalty, I would be reading reviews in what is > basically a > well-respected magazine, considered to be the leader in it's field > in the UK > at least, and would probably be guided by their reviews in making my > purchasing decision. What is important is that the bottom-line > summary (the > percentage rating) should better indicate the quality of the item > reviewed > than I think this does. A camera and lens combination that cannot > produce > photos of an acceptable quality under conditions which will be > normal for > many potential users does not merit a rating of 86% , in my > opinion. It is > a matter of objectivity: my experience in reading this particular > magazine > for more than forty years is that it's reviews do tend to indicate > bias > towards particular manufacturers, and often those they do not favour > will > have their products reviewed in a very negative way: minor issues > will be > highlighted, and subjective comments will be offered without > definitive > reasons being given. > > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of > Godfrey DiGiorgi > Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 9:57 AM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test > > I can't for the life of me understand why a bunch of pundits' praise > or whatever is significant at all. Why care what they say unless > you're working for Pentax marketing? > > Godfrey - www.gdgphoto.com > > On May 15, 2008, at 4:51 PM, John Coyle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> The UK's Amateur Photographer" had its usual biased summary of it's >> testing: >> the article said that basically the jpeg's suck at any ISO, that >> noise >> levels are unacceptable at 400 ISO and above, and that using >> "highlight tone >> priority" slows the camera down noticeably. But the reviewer still >> gave the >> camera 86% overall, the same as
RE: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
Not sure where you are coming from with this comment Godfrey: however, I would reflect that, were I in the market for a new camera, and had no existing brand loyalty, I would be reading reviews in what is basically a well-respected magazine, considered to be the leader in it's field in the UK at least, and would probably be guided by their reviews in making my purchasing decision. What is important is that the bottom-line summary (the percentage rating) should better indicate the quality of the item reviewed than I think this does. A camera and lens combination that cannot produce photos of an acceptable quality under conditions which will be normal for many potential users does not merit a rating of 86% , in my opinion. It is a matter of objectivity: my experience in reading this particular magazine for more than forty years is that it's reviews do tend to indicate bias towards particular manufacturers, and often those they do not favour will have their products reviewed in a very negative way: minor issues will be highlighted, and subjective comments will be offered without definitive reasons being given. John Coyle Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Godfrey DiGiorgi Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 9:57 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test I can't for the life of me understand why a bunch of pundits' praise or whatever is significant at all. Why care what they say unless you're working for Pentax marketing? Godfrey - www.gdgphoto.com On May 15, 2008, at 4:51 PM, John Coyle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The UK's Amateur Photographer" had its usual biased summary of it's > testing: > the article said that basically the jpeg's suck at any ISO, that noise > levels are unacceptable at 400 ISO and above, and that using > "highlight tone > priority" slows the camera down noticeably. But the reviewer still > gave the > camera 86% overall, the same as the Nikon D60 and the Alpha 350! > > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 3:21 AM > To: pdml@pdml.net > Subject: OT: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test > > http://www.fotovilag.hu/teszt/canon/Canon-450D/canon450d-iso.htm > > Kinda sucks above ISO 400. > > (the page is in hungarian but the pictures are universal :D) > > Cheers, > .t > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above > and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
- Original Message - From: "Godfrey DiGiorgi" Subject: Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test >I can't for the life of me understand why a bunch of pundits' praise > or whatever is significant at all. Why care what they say unless > you're working for Pentax marketing? Because people don't have the time or money to buy one of each and figure it out for themselves, so they depend on others to do some of the technical legwork for them? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
I can't for the life of me understand why a bunch of pundits' praise or whatever is significant at all. Why care what they say unless you're working for Pentax marketing? Godfrey - www.gdgphoto.com On May 15, 2008, at 4:51 PM, John Coyle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The UK's Amateur Photographer" had its usual biased summary of it's > testing: > the article said that basically the jpeg's suck at any ISO, that noise > levels are unacceptable at 400 ISO and above, and that using > "highlight tone > priority" slows the camera down noticeably. But the reviewer still > gave the > camera 86% overall, the same as the Nikon D60 and the Alpha 350! > > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 3:21 AM > To: pdml@pdml.net > Subject: OT: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test > > http://www.fotovilag.hu/teszt/canon/Canon-450D/canon450d-iso.htm > > Kinda sucks above ISO 400. > > (the page is in hungarian but the pictures are universal :D) > > Cheers, > .t > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above > and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
The UK's Amateur Photographer" had its usual biased summary of it's testing: the article said that basically the jpeg's suck at any ISO, that noise levels are unacceptable at 400 ISO and above, and that using "highlight tone priority" slows the camera down noticeably. But the reviewer still gave the camera 86% overall, the same as the Nikon D60 and the Alpha 350! John Coyle Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 3:21 AM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: OT: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test http://www.fotovilag.hu/teszt/canon/Canon-450D/canon450d-iso.htm Kinda sucks above ISO 400. (the page is in hungarian but the pictures are universal :D) Cheers, .t -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
Well, badly underexposed images are going to suck for noise. very poor test subject, guaranteed to have noise issues. I wouldn't consider those images as a good test of the 450D/XSi's noise performance. At worst it's an indictment of its metering. -Adam On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:20 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://www.fotovilag.hu/teszt/canon/Canon-450D/canon450d-iso.htm > > Kinda sucks above ISO 400. > > (the page is in hungarian but the pictures are universal :D) > > Cheers, > .t > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: CanOFF EOS 450D Iso Test
http://www.fotovilag.hu/teszt/canon/Canon-450D/canon450d-iso.htm Kinda sucks above ISO 400. (the page is in hungarian but the pictures are universal :D) Cheers, .t -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
