RE: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-27 Thread Doug Franklin

On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:24:41 +1000, Rob Studdert wrote:

 [...] colour film scanners usually utilize a 3 linear arrays each 
 with a primary colour filtration [...] the sensor in a camera (not
 the tethered studio back type) has the three colour filters over
 adjacent pixels in a 4 pixel grid ie. 2 green a blue and a red and 
 the data is captured across the sensor virtually simultaneously so
 the real resolution is far less than the sensor pixel count.

This has been my experience, too.

TTYL, DougF
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RE: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Kent Gittings

Sorry but color CCD digicams use exactly the same technology as scanners in
most cases. The only interpolation they do is if they are capable of
producing a result that has higher res than the number of actual pixels in
the CCD grid. Which is exactly how a 1200x2400 pixel/dot scanner can come up
with an interpolated scan that is 9600x9600. By the way in the latest
product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the film)
a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with even
the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam that has
a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher dpi film
scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either they are
fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or they are
correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own film to
move towards a digital world.
Kent Gittings

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Doug Franklin
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 10:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI


On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:50:24 -0700, aimcompute wrote:

 I have noticed that scanner mfr.'s use the term interchangeably.  For
 instance Minolta lists their scanner resolutions in dpi.

I've always thought of it as pixels each have all of the color
vectors (R, G, and B, or C, M, Y, and K, or whatever), whiles dots
have only one color vector.  Sort of like the difference in color
scanner sensors and digicam sensors.  The color scanner samples all of
the colors at each pixel while the digicam (generally) only samples one
color at each pixel, then interpolates the other colors.  Printers
generally get described in dots while scanners and monitors in
pixels.

YMMV

TTYL, DougF
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Bill Owens

 By the way in the latest
 product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
film)
 a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with
even
 the best scanners.

I've read this in other places too.

Bill, KG4LOV
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread aimcompute

That's interesting, but let me ask this.  I'll do it rhethorical fashion.

When I scan a 35mm slide with my 2438ppi scanner, what part of the 20+
megabyte file would I choose as being inconsequential to the image?

And now with the 4000ppi scanners it seems there is even more data to be
found in a 35mm frame.

Tom C.

Kent Kittings wrote:

snip

 By the way in the latest
 product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
film)
 a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with
even
 the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam that
has
 a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher dpi
film
 scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
 interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
 impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either they
are
 fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or they
are
 correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own film to
 move towards a digital world.
 Kent Gittings
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread aimcompute

I forgot to say one other thing.  Granted... not all of that 20+ mb file is
raw pixels.  It also contains all other kind of file format stuff.

Tom C.

- Original Message -
From: aimcompute [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI


 That's interesting, but let me ask this.  I'll do it rhethorical fashion.

 When I scan a 35mm slide with my 2438ppi scanner, what part of the 20+
 megabyte file would I choose as being inconsequential to the image?

 And now with the 4000ppi scanners it seems there is even more data to be
 found in a 35mm frame.

 Tom C.

 Kent Kittings wrote:

 snip

  By the way in the latest
  product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
 film)
  a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with
 even
  the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam that
 has
  a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher dpi
 film
  scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
  interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
  impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either they
 are
  fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or they
 are
  correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own film
to
  move towards a digital world.
  Kent Gittings
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RE: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Kent Gittings

I don't know either. If I thought that there was really only about 6 MP of
real info in a 35mm frame I might make the switch to digital sooner than I
expect to. But I'm not sure they are not fudging their opinions down so as
to sell large amounts of their higher end digital cameras.
Kent Gittings

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of aimcompute
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI


That's interesting, but let me ask this.  I'll do it rhethorical fashion.

When I scan a 35mm slide with my 2438ppi scanner, what part of the 20+
megabyte file would I choose as being inconsequential to the image?

And now with the 4000ppi scanners it seems there is even more data to be
found in a 35mm frame.

Tom C.

Kent Kittings wrote:

snip

 By the way in the latest
 product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
film)
 a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with
even
 the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam that
has
 a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher dpi
film
 scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
 interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
 impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either they
are
 fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or they
are
 correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own film to
 move towards a digital world.
 Kent Gittings
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread aimcompute

I agree with your suspicion.

My Minolta, in raw pixels gets about 8mb from a 35mm frame.  With the
4000dpi scanners, a raw pixel count of about 20mb is realized.

It does seem there is more than 6 megapixels of information in a 35mm film
frame.

It's the standards issue again...  and what size the final output will be.
For most people 6 mega-pixels may be good enough, but good enough and as
good may be two different things, depending on the user's intentions.

Tom C.


- Original Message -
From: Kent Gittings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: DPI vs. PPI


 I don't know either. If I thought that there was really only about 6 MP of
 real info in a 35mm frame I might make the switch to digital sooner than I
 expect to. But I'm not sure they are not fudging their opinions down so as
 to sell large amounts of their higher end digital cameras.
 Kent Gittings

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of aimcompute
 Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:10 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI


 That's interesting, but let me ask this.  I'll do it rhethorical fashion.

 When I scan a 35mm slide with my 2438ppi scanner, what part of the 20+
 megabyte file would I choose as being inconsequential to the image?

 And now with the 4000ppi scanners it seems there is even more data to be
 found in a 35mm frame.

 Tom C.

 Kent Kittings wrote:

 snip

  By the way in the latest
  product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
 film)
  a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with
 even
  the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam that
 has
  a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher dpi
 film
  scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
  interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
  impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either they
 are
  fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or they
 are
  correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own film
to
  move towards a digital world.
  Kent Gittings
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Tom Rittenhouse

To the best of my knowledge, 10K dpi will resolve the grain of normal film.
Someone on the list said his 400 dpi would do that, but I think there is a
difference between showing the grain and fully resolving it.

I do know that the best print I have received from the PDML Printer
Challenge was scaned on a very high resolution scanner, so apparently the
higher the scan resolution the better the final image.

If 6mp does the job, why do the advertising pros use backs that produce
100mb+ images? A 6mp back produces an 18mb image. I think that it is
advertising speak for we think you are stupid enough to believe this.

Ciao,
graywolf
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



- Original Message -
From: Kent Gittings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: DPI vs. PPI


 Sorry but color CCD digicams use exactly the same technology as scanners
in
 most cases. The only interpolation they do is if they are capable of
 producing a result that has higher res than the number of actual pixels in
 the CCD grid. Which is exactly how a 1200x2400 pixel/dot scanner can come
up
 with an interpolated scan that is 9600x9600. By the way in the latest
 product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
film)
 a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with
even
 the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam that
has
 a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher dpi
film
 scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
 interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
 impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either they
are
 fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or they
are
 correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own film to
 move towards a digital world.
 Kent Gittings

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Doug Franklin
 Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 10:24 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI


 On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:50:24 -0700, aimcompute wrote:

  I have noticed that scanner mfr.'s use the term interchangeably.  For
  instance Minolta lists their scanner resolutions in dpi.

 I've always thought of it as pixels each have all of the color
 vectors (R, G, and B, or C, M, Y, and K, or whatever), whiles dots
 have only one color vector.  Sort of like the difference in color
 scanner sensors and digicam sensors.  The color scanner samples all of
 the colors at each pixel while the digicam (generally) only samples one
 color at each pixel, then interpolates the other colors.  Printers
 generally get described in dots while scanners and monitors in
 pixels.

 YMMV

 TTYL, DougF
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Tom Rittenhouse

And, why pay for a 10Kdpi drum scan?

Ciao,
graywolf
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



- Original Message -
From: aimcompute [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI


 That's interesting, but let me ask this.  I'll do it rhethorical fashion.

 When I scan a 35mm slide with my 2438ppi scanner, what part of the 20+
 megabyte file would I choose as being inconsequential to the image?

 And now with the 4000ppi scanners it seems there is even more data to be
 found in a 35mm frame.

 Tom C.

 Kent Kittings wrote:

 snip

  By the way in the latest
  product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
 film)
  a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it with
 even
  the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam that
 has
  a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher dpi
 film
  scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
  interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
  impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either they
 are
  fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or they
 are
  correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own film
to
  move towards a digital world.
  Kent Gittings
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 visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Tom Rittenhouse

While we are talking about advertising speak, please explain how a scanner
can get a density range of 4.2 on a scale of 0 to 4?

Ciao,
graywolf
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



- Original Message -
From: Kent Gittings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 2:13 PM
Subject: RE: DPI vs. PPI


 True but if raw pixel count is only getting the equivalent of
interpolation
 between the film grains you may not be getting anything real. If the image
 blown up is a little fuzzy around the edges of things then more pixels
will
 not cure the problem. Only a sharper image with more pixels can help.
 Finding that line to crossover from film to digital is the key. If you
were
 using Kodak Techpan 2415 then more info than 6 MP could be gotten out of
the
 resulting negative. But maybe with 800ASA Superia X-tra the results would
 provide the same information in the shot. Would be interesting if some
 magazine was willing to test this out. Say using a Nikon D-1x vs. an F-5
or
 a Canon D-1 vs. an EOS-1v. Then try successively faster films scanned on
 something like a Minolta Scan Pro (4800 DPI, 48 color, 4.2 dynamic range)
to
 maximize the film info and find out at what point the film results were
hard
 to tell from the digicam. Sort of like comparing good lenses.
 But then again maybe with their agendas the film/camera makers don't want
 that to happen less  they have people moving towards one result
effectively
 harming the other suddenly.
 Kent Gittings

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of aimcompute
 Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 1:28 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI


 I agree with your suspicion.

 My Minolta, in raw pixels gets about 8mb from a 35mm frame.  With the
 4000dpi scanners, a raw pixel count of about 20mb is realized.

 It does seem there is more than 6 megapixels of information in a 35mm film
 frame.

 It's the standards issue again...  and what size the final output will
be.
 For most people 6 mega-pixels may be good enough, but good enough and
as
 good may be two different things, depending on the user's intentions.

 Tom C.


 - Original Message -
 From: Kent Gittings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 11:06 AM
 Subject: RE: DPI vs. PPI


  I don't know either. If I thought that there was really only about 6 MP
of
  real info in a 35mm frame I might make the switch to digital sooner than
I
  expect to. But I'm not sure they are not fudging their opinions down so
as
  to sell large amounts of their higher end digital cameras.
  Kent Gittings
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of aimcompute
  Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:10 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: DPI vs. PPI
 
 
  That's interesting, but let me ask this.  I'll do it rhethorical
fashion.
 
  When I scan a 35mm slide with my 2438ppi scanner, what part of the 20+
  megabyte file would I choose as being inconsequential to the image?
 
  And now with the 4000ppi scanners it seems there is even more data to be
  found in a 35mm frame.
 
  Tom C.
 
  Kent Kittings wrote:
 
  snip
 
   By the way in the latest
   product news from Fuji they say that generally (without specifying the
  film)
   a 35mm snapshot has about 6 MP of info that can be mined out of it
with
  even
   the best scanners. This is when comparing it to their 6900 digicam
that
  has
   a 6 MP interpolation mode. I know at some point a higher and higher
dpi
  film
   scanner will get no more real data out of a negative/slide but just
   interpolation of the areas between the grain. However I was under the
   impression the amount of data on a 35mm frame was higher. So either
they
  are
   fudging so as to place themselves correctly in the digicam world or
they
  are
   correct and maybe downplaying the actual data content of their own
film
 to
   move towards a digital world.
   Kent Gittings
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  This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List.  To unsubscribe,
  go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to
  visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
 
 
 
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 This message is from

RE: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Rob Studdert

On 26 Dec 2001 at 11:45, Kent Gittings wrote:

 Sorry but color CCD digicams use exactly the same technology as scanners in most
 cases. The only interpolation they do is if they are capable of producing a
 result that has higher res than the number of actual pixels in the CCD grid.

I can't get my head around your statement above. No colour film scanners that I 
have ever used use interpolation to generate a higher pixel count than the raw 
sensor provides whereas virtually every colour digital camera is required to 
interpolate the sensor data in order to produce any image at all.

This is because colour film scanners usually utilize a 3 linear arrays each 
with a primary colour filtration hence their data acquisition is 1:1 however 
the data is acquired line by line in a non-time constrained manner. Whereas the 
sensor in a camera (not the tethered studio back type) has the three colour 
filters over adjacent pixels in a 4 pixel grid ie. 2 green a blue and a red and 
the data is captured across the sensor virtually simultaneously so the real 
resolution is far less than the sensor pixel count.

Cheers,
Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
Tel +61-2-9554-4110
UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Rob Studdert

On 26 Dec 2001 at 11:28, aimcompute wrote:

 It's the standards issue again...  and what size the final output will be. For
 most people 6 mega-pixels may be good enough, but good enough and as good
 may be two different things, depending on the user's intentions.

I suspect that too, many people slate APS as being too small a format yet my 
4000dpi scanner produces a fairly grain free 11.3MP image from an APS frame. In 
contrast a 36mm x 24mm frame produces a 21.43MP scan at 4000dpi, this is a far 
cry from 6MP (or scanned APS) and also consider the density and colour depth 
advantages as many scanners have 14bit DAC on each colour channel.

Then again processing film sucks :-)

Cheers,
Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
Tel +61-2-9554-4110
UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Rob Studdert

On 26 Dec 2001 at 15:31, Tom Rittenhouse wrote:

 To the best of my knowledge, 10K dpi will resolve the grain of normal film.
 Someone on the list said his 400 dpi would do that, but I think there is a
 difference between showing the grain and fully resolving it.

All very valid points, I have noted time and time again that the detail 
extracted from my films at 4000dpi is not as detailed as the view that I see 
through my 20x optical microscope, so there is more data to be had before we 
get to the point of being able to fully resolve individual grains. Obviously I 
am not talking about 800ISO film here, I am talking slow fine grained films.

The fast 320ISO mode on my Oly E-10 (4MP) is atrocious for grain, shooting the 
regular 80ISO still shows noise (this in in full sunlight and with TIFF 
(11.3MB) or RAW mode output files) more than any sub 200ISO slide film at the 
same magnification.

Cheers,
Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
Tel +61-2-9554-4110
UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-26 Thread Paul Stenquist

I agree with his suspicion and your agreement :-). Seriously, I scan my 35 mm
negs at 4000 ppi, which yields a file of about 55 megabytes. As a test, I've
tried scanning at 2000 ppi, which produced a file of 20+megabytes. A print from
the 55 megabyte file was obviously superior in terms of detail sharpness and
color gradation.
Paul

aimcompute wrote:

 I agree with your suspicion.

 My Minolta, in raw pixels gets about 8mb from a 35mm frame.  With the
 4000dpi scanners, a raw pixel count of about 20mb is realized.

 It does seem there is more than 6 megapixels of information in a 35mm film
 frame.
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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-22 Thread Cotty

I have noticed that scanner mfr.'s use the term interchangeably.  For
instance Minolta lists their scanner resolutions in dpi.

Not trying to be nit-picky... I promise I'm not... but if the product
manufacturers who write the specs call it that, I guess it's not wrong to
use the term.  In essence a pixel is a dot of light, the absence of a dot of
light,  or a place for a dot of light to go.

At least that's what I think... I think.

Tom C.

I would tend to agree with you Tom. However, playing devil's advocate, 
ppi surely refers to input and images on a monitor, and dpi refers to 
output on a printer? It is being picky, you're right. I prefer dpi 
personally - then everyone knows what we mean!

Cheers,

Cotty

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Re: DPI vs. PPI

2001-12-21 Thread Doug Franklin

On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:50:24 -0700, aimcompute wrote:

 I have noticed that scanner mfr.'s use the term interchangeably.  For
 instance Minolta lists their scanner resolutions in dpi.

I've always thought of it as pixels each have all of the color
vectors (R, G, and B, or C, M, Y, and K, or whatever), whiles dots
have only one color vector.  Sort of like the difference in color
scanner sensors and digicam sensors.  The color scanner samples all of
the colors at each pixel while the digicam (generally) only samples one
color at each pixel, then interpolates the other colors.  Printers
generally get described in dots while scanners and monitors in
pixels.

YMMV

TTYL, DougF
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