Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
On 2006-06-19 10:58, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: That's a reasonable argumentation. But it does lack the proof. ... I see absolutely no basis for trying to prove anything with this information unless what you want to do is complain about something. There is no possibility of proof as there is insufficient information to base a proof on. Analysis of the product will be the proof of any assertions, not some technical document offered by the marketing department. I hoped that there may be other sources which knew better - and I was told from a 3rd party by now that the electronics are a major redesign. That's no real prove for you, but I trust this source. So the improvement of the image quality should be due both to firmware and hardware. What an official document of this nature means is that Pentax marketing wants to get some attention directed at the new products and their features. These documents mean next to nothing with regard to engineering and technical information. marketing - mean next to nothing - I'm afraid you're right. Martin -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
On 2006-06-09 15:31, Simon King wrote: Hi All, Just in case this isn't already known by all, here's a fact sheet on SR other K10d features. http://www.pentaxslr.com/images/SHAKE_REDUCTION_FACT SHEET.pdf What I learn from the doc: Pentax does not mind about former users, upgrading their firmware? So even if Pentax knew about solutions to improve picture quality, they do not necessarily take the effort to make upgrades? : Is the CCD identical with the one used in *ist D-series models? :: Yes, it is. : : Are there any improvements in image quality over *ist D-series models? : :: Yes, the K100D's image quality is even higher than that offered by the :: *ist D series due to upgraded firmware. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
How do you know that these improvement can be implemented with just a firmware upgrade? Where did you find this information? On 6/19/06, Martin Trautmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-06-09 15:31, Simon King wrote: Hi All, Just in case this isn't already known by all, here's a fact sheet on SR other K10d features. http://www.pentaxslr.com/images/SHAKE_REDUCTION_FACT SHEET.pdf What I learn from the doc: Pentax does not mind about former users, upgrading their firmware? So even if Pentax knew about solutions to improve picture quality, they do not necessarily take the effort to make upgrades? : Is the CCD identical with the one used in *ist D-series models? :: Yes, it is. : : Are there any improvements in image quality over *ist D-series models? : :: Yes, the K100D's image quality is even higher than that offered by the :: *ist D series due to upgraded firmware. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Perry Pellechia Primary email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alternate email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://homer.chem.sc.edu/perry -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
It is the job of engineers at Pentax to constantly improve the image quality of the cameras they produce. Not all of these improvements are *possible* to do to older bodies, even if it were cost effective to do so. Even if there are substantial image quality gains to be had in JPEG rendering, much of the algorithm used is embedded into the hardware of the graphics rendering chip in a digital camera for both speed and cost reasons. There is no reason to assume that a firmware upgrade can change the rendering algorithm beyond a certain point. Pentax has done what an excellent job of providing useful improvements with firmware revisions to the *ist D_ series cameras, and is supporting the existing user base very well. Godfrey On Jun 19, 2006, at 8:39 AM, Martin Trautmann wrote: http://www.pentaxslr.com/images/SHAKE_REDUCTION_FACT SHEET.pdf What I learn from the doc: Pentax does not mind about former users, upgrading their firmware? So even if Pentax knew about solutions to improve picture quality, they do not necessarily take the effort to make upgrades? : Is the CCD identical with the one used in *ist D-series models? :: Yes, it is. : : Are there any improvements in image quality over *ist D-series models? : :: Yes, the K100D's image quality is even higher than that offered by the :: *ist D series due to upgraded firmware. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
On 2006-06-19 12:02, Perry Pellechia wrote: How do you know that these improvement can be implemented with just a firmware upgrade? Where did you find this information? It's within the documents, both referenced and quoted below. Once again: image quality is even higher [...] due to upgraded firmware They name *firmware*, not *hardware*. There may be other reasons why a firmware upgrade is not done for *istD. As long as someone else does not name better sources, you might even guess that a *istD upgrade is prevented in order to justify higher K10* sales. On 6/19/06, Martin Trautmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-06-09 15:31, Simon King wrote: Hi All, Just in case this isn't already known by all, here's a fact sheet on SR other K10d features. http://www.pentaxslr.com/images/SHAKE_REDUCTION_FACT SHEET.pdf What I learn from the doc: Pentax does not mind about former users, upgrading their firmware? So even if Pentax knew about solutions to improve picture quality, they do not necessarily take the effort to make upgrades? : Is the CCD identical with the one used in *ist D-series models? :: Yes, it is. : : Are there any improvements in image quality over *ist D-series models? : :: Yes, the K100D's image quality is even higher than that offered by the :: *ist D series due to upgraded firmware. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
I think you need to read Godfrey's reply. On 6/19/06, Martin Trautmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-06-19 12:02, Perry Pellechia wrote: How do you know that these improvement can be implemented with just a firmware upgrade? Where did you find this information? It's within the documents, both referenced and quoted below. Once again: image quality is even higher [...] due to upgraded firmware They name *firmware*, not *hardware*. There may be other reasons why a firmware upgrade is not done for *istD. As long as someone else does not name better sources, you might even guess that a *istD upgrade is prevented in order to justify higher K10* sales. On 6/19/06, Martin Trautmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-06-09 15:31, Simon King wrote: Hi All, Just in case this isn't already known by all, here's a fact sheet on SR other K10d features. http://www.pentaxslr.com/images/SHAKE_REDUCTION_FACT SHEET.pdf What I learn from the doc: Pentax does not mind about former users, upgrading their firmware? So even if Pentax knew about solutions to improve picture quality, they do not necessarily take the effort to make upgrades? : Is the CCD identical with the one used in *ist D-series models? :: Yes, it is. : : Are there any improvements in image quality over *ist D-series models? : :: Yes, the K100D's image quality is even higher than that offered by the :: *ist D series due to upgraded firmware. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Perry Pellechia Primary email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alternate email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://homer.chem.sc.edu/perry -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
On Jun 19, 2006, at 9:27 AM, Martin Trautmann wrote: It's within the documents, both referenced and quoted below. Once again: image quality is even higher [...] due to upgraded firmware They name *firmware*, not *hardware*. There may be other reasons why a firmware upgrade is not done for *istD. As long as someone else does not name better sources, you might even guess that a *istD upgrade is prevented in order to justify higher K10* sales. Upgraded firmware might well be dependent upon image processing resources not available in prior versions of the hardware. Don't be so literal. The imaging sensor is not the only component in the image processing system. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
On 2006-06-19 09:13, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: It is the job of engineers at Pentax to constantly improve the image quality of the cameras they produce. Not all of these improvements are *possible* to do to older bodies, even if it were cost effective to do so. Even if there are substantial image quality gains to be had in JPEG rendering, much of the algorithm used is embedded into the hardware of the graphics rendering chip in a digital camera for both speed and cost reasons. Hi Godfrey, thanks for the comment. But do you have any insight, which of this does apply to K100D vs. *istD? - is the image quality better? Pentax says yes. - is the sensor identical? Pentax says yes. - is there any relevant different hardware? Pentax does not state this clearly. I'd expect certain improvements, although I don't know whether these differences will absolutely prevent a firmware improvement for old hardware, whether they are required for image quality or whether they focus on other limitations. - is it a firmware difference? Pentax says yes. There is no reason to assume that a firmware upgrade can change the rendering algorithm beyond a certain point. That's a reasonable argumentation. But it does lack the proof. On the other hand, we got an 'official' document. My interpretation is kind of worst case, which may be far beyond the goal of this interview. But for dicussion, I feel that it's a reasonable assumption to guess that what they write is actually true. Pentax has done what an excellent job of providing useful improvements with firmware revisions to the *ist D_ series cameras, and is supporting the existing user base very well. They have done significant improvements. I'm not that much into the details to know whether they did enough improvements (people are happy with image quality? reasonable balance between jpg quality, speed and size, compared to picture quality from RAW processing to other jpg? Small RAW sizes by now?). But I know many products which could be (almost) as good as others, as long as they were not crippled by software limitations. For example, I got an MP3 player recently (iRiver U10 2GB UMS). There's a new player around by now with better startup and better navigation (iRiver clix, although much cheaper). I know that it got an upgraded CPU, compared to the first 512 MB and 1 GB models. But I doubt that the improvements could not be ported to the former U10. On the other hand the company provided a surprising update to convert between MTP and UMS software - former models for the US market where crippled to the MTP version. Now bad omens claim that this is a final move since iRiver might leave this market, so they don't mind about decreasing Win friendliness. If you know better about the questions above, please let me know. - Martin -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10d fact sheet - no moustache!
On Jun 19, 2006, at 10:32 AM, Martin Trautmann wrote: thanks for the comment. But do you have any insight, which of this does apply to K100D vs. *istD? - is the image quality better? Pentax says yes. - is the sensor identical? Pentax says yes. - is there any relevant different hardware? Pentax does not state this clearly. I'd expect certain improvements, although I don't know whether these differences will absolutely prevent a firmware improvement for old hardware, whether they are required for image quality or whether they focus on other limitations. - is it a firmware difference? Pentax says yes. No. No one will know what all the differences are until the cameras are available for testing and dismantling, comparison. Pentax says... is an absurdly literal perception of this information. There is no reason to assume that a firmware upgrade can change the rendering algorithm beyond a certain point. That's a reasonable argumentation. But it does lack the proof. ... I see absolutely no basis for trying to prove anything with this information unless what you want to do is complain about something. There is no possibility of proof as there is insufficient information to base a proof on. Analysis of the product will be the proof of any assertions, not some technical document offered by the marketing department. What an official document of this nature means is that Pentax marketing wants to get some attention directed at the new products and their features. These documents mean next to nothing with regard to engineering and technical information. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
