OT: Consumer Reports "Best-scoring camera ever"
The bad new is that the $800 Canon Power Shot G1 Mark II was given the highest score any camera ever received from CR. The good news is that same article on Point-and-Shoot cameras lists "There other standouts": The Panasonic LumC-LF1 ($350) The Olymous Stylus 1 ($650) AND "The Pentax MX-1, $250, a CR Best Buy, costs less than many basic cameras yet gives you the flexibility of manual controls. It excels at daylight shots and takes very good flash photos and video. Overall image quality is decent." Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports Best Products of the Year
Dan, You don't have to abbreviate camera names like that...They are already stars in their own mind! John Graves On 10/8/2013 4:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: In the November 2013 Issue, Consumer Reports covers 550 items described as Best Products of the Year. FWIW, there are 14 DSLRs, including 2 from Penjtax, the K-30 and the K-5. All the others are from C***N or N***N Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports Best Products of the Year
I guess I still don't agree with consumer reports. On 10/8/2013 4:41 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: Well, they placed the K-5 and the K-30 among "The Best 550 Products of the Year." That is pretty good. 14 DSLRs made the list; the K-5 and K-30 were 13th and 12th, edging out the Nikon D5100. They each scored 66 points, compared to 73 points for the Canon EOS Rebel T5i and 72 for the Nikon 7100, the top 2 DSLRs. So, they liked them, but the liked 11 Canon and Nikon DSLRs, some cheaper, a bit more. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 4:10 PM, P.J. Alling wrote: That's not off topic, that's perfectly on topic. The important question is did Condemner Reports like them or not? I can't remember the last time that I read a CR that I agreed with on any high tech product. On 10/8/2013 4:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: In the November 2013 Issue, Consumer Reports covers 550 items described as Best Products of the Year. FWIW, there are 14 DSLRs, including 2 from Penjtax, the K-30 and the K-5. All the others are from C***N or N***N Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports Best Products of the Year
Well, they placed the K-5 and the K-30 among "The Best 550 Products of the Year." That is pretty good. 14 DSLRs made the list; the K-5 and K-30 were 13th and 12th, edging out the Nikon D5100. They each scored 66 points, compared to 73 points for the Canon EOS Rebel T5i and 72 for the Nikon 7100, the top 2 DSLRs. So, they liked them, but the liked 11 Canon and Nikon DSLRs, some cheaper, a bit more. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 4:10 PM, P.J. Alling wrote: > That's not off topic, that's perfectly on topic. The important question is > did Condemner Reports like them or not? I can't remember the last time that > I read a CR that I agreed with on any high tech product. > > > On 10/8/2013 4:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: >> >> In the November 2013 Issue, Consumer Reports covers 550 items >> described as Best Products of the Year. FWIW, there are 14 DSLRs, >> including 2 from Penjtax, the K-30 and the K-5. All the others are >> from C***N or N***N >> >> Dan Matyola >> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola >> > > > -- > A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the > crazy, crazier. > > - H.L.Mencken > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports Best Products of the Year
That's not off topic, that's perfectly on topic. The important question is did Condemner Reports like them or not? I can't remember the last time that I read a CR that I agreed with on any high tech product. On 10/8/2013 4:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: In the November 2013 Issue, Consumer Reports covers 550 items described as Best Products of the Year. FWIW, there are 14 DSLRs, including 2 from Penjtax, the K-30 and the K-5. All the others are from C***N or N***N Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: Consumer Reports Best Products of the Year
In the November 2013 Issue, Consumer Reports covers 550 items described as Best Products of the Year. FWIW, there are 14 DSLRs, including 2 from Penjtax, the K-30 and the K-5. All the others are from C***N or N***N Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Consumer Reports
normally with ABX testing, the person under test has to be able to consistently be able to make the right selection or the selection would be statistically chalked up as random selection. - J.C.O'Connell hifis...@gate.net - -Original Message- From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:51 AM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: OT: Consumer Reports From: "J.C. O'Connell" > But if 2 out of 10 could consistently hear a difference, then there was a > difference. Did it say 2 out of 10 could *consistently* hear a difference? Could the two of them always hear a consistent difference? Was the difference between the two of them consistent? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Consumer Reports
From: "J.C. O'Connell" But if 2 out of 10 could consistently hear a difference, then there was a difference. Did it say 2 out of 10 could *consistently* hear a difference? Could the two of them always hear a consistent difference? Was the difference between the two of them consistent? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Consumer Reports
But if 2 out of 10 could consistently hear a difference, then there was a difference. - J.C.O'Connell hifis...@gate.net - -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Doug Franklin Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 1:17 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Consumer Reports On 2012-10-01 20:44, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: > We did double-blind AB testing and 8 out of 10 listeners couldn't tell the difference..." Odds are that's 100% truth. -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
On Oct 1, 2012, at 5:44 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: > CR is not for the enthusiast. > > Of anything. > > Back when I read the odd high end stereo mag like Stereophile or Absolute > Sound (Are either of those still around? I don't know...) they decried CR > stereo ratings: "This Naim amplifier seems sturdily built and rugged, and it > measures quite good although at only 15 watts per side it's not very > powerful. At 1/10th the price we recommend this Sansui receiver with 200 > watts per channel and even better measurements than the Naim. Plus, the > Sansui has a built-in tuner and pre-amp! A much better value! We did > double-blind AB testing and 8 out of 10 listeners couldn't tell the > difference..." For the people who read and believe CR, the Sansui was probably a better buy. Also, 8 out of 10 probably couldn't tell the difference. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
On 2012-10-01 20:44, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: We did double-blind AB testing and 8 out of 10 listeners couldn't tell the difference..." Odds are that's 100% truth. -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
Yes, on a serious note, that's doubtless the case. My Zeiss tag line was an intentional over-reach. Jack Davis http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/jackdavis http://www.photolightimages.com/ - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 6:27 PM Subject: Re: OT: Consumer Reports Jack Davis wrote: >I've always felt CR's camera reviews to be naive. >Also, don't like the idea of price being a component of the quality formula. >That might, however, explain the Carl Zeiss "poor" rating. It was about 30 years ago, so my recollections are surely imperfect, but I'm pretty sure they were dissing the image quality rather than "value for money". (Otherwise Keppler wouldn't have spoken up.) -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia http://www.robertstech.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
Jack Davis wrote: >I've always felt CR's camera reviews to be naive. >Also, don't like the idea of price being a component of the quality formula. >That might, however, explain the Carl Zeiss "poor" rating. It was about 30 years ago, so my recollections are surely imperfect, but I'm pretty sure they were dissing the image quality rather than "value for money". (Otherwise Keppler wouldn't have spoken up.) -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
CR is not for the enthusiast. Of anything. Back when I read the odd high end stereo mag like Stereophile or Absolute Sound (Are either of those still around? I don't know...) they decried CR stereo ratings: "This Naim amplifier seems sturdily built and rugged, and it measures quite good although at only 15 watts per side it's not very powerful. At 1/10th the price we recommend this Sansui receiver with 200 watts per channel and even better measurements than the Naim. Plus, the Sansui has a built-in tuner and pre-amp! A much better value! We did double-blind AB testing and 8 out of 10 listeners couldn't tell the difference..." cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: steve harley Sent: October 1, 2012 10/1/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT: Consumer Reports on 2012-10-01 10:19 Daniel J. Matyola wrote > The November 2012 issue of Consumer Reports magazine features the > "Best Products of the Year." Among the listed items are 12 DSLRs, > including two Pentax cameras! that's interesting and notable, and will get Pentax some sales i'm with the rest in being very wary of CR's ratings, though; they package their results so as to do the thinking for you, and make it hard to parse out useful info from all their assumptions about the products and the people who'll use them; the best product for their hypothetical average person is rarely the right product for me and that is before the outright mistakes CR often seems to make, as well as the fact that they never dare to question consumerism itself; i often consider CR's data for major purchases, but i also often agree with their conclusions -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
on 2012-10-01 10:19 Daniel J. Matyola wrote The November 2012 issue of Consumer Reports magazine features the "Best Products of the Year." Among the listed items are 12 DSLRs, including two Pentax cameras! that's interesting and notable, and will get Pentax some sales i'm with the rest in being very wary of CR's ratings, though; they package their results so as to do the thinking for you, and make it hard to parse out useful info from all their assumptions about the products and the people who'll use them; the best product for their hypothetical average person is rarely the right product for me and that is before the outright mistakes CR often seems to make, as well as the fact that they never dare to question consumerism itself; i often consider CR's data for major purchases, but i also often agree with their conclusions -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
Considering the nadaring they tried to do on the Suzuki Samurai, I am not inclined to trust anything that CR says. On Oct 1, 2012, at 9:19 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: > The November 2012 issue of Consumer Reports magazine features the > "Best Products of the Year." Among the listed items are 12 DSLRs, > including two Pentax cameras! The K-5 is 9th, and the Kr is 11th, > although both have the same total score (67) and are separated by an > evil N***n product, the D5100. The twelve include 4 each from C***N > and N***N, 2 from Pentax, and one each from Oly and Sony. > > > Dan Matyola > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Consumer Reports
Just a mention of two Pentax products is great! CR doesn't cater to photographers and I'd even doubt that a photographer reviewed them. I am sure that they just plug in numbers and a winner is spit out. Can't image they have time for much (any?) real world handling or picture taking. Cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: "Daniel J. Matyola" Sent: October 1, 2012 10/1/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: OT: Consumer Reports The November 2012 issue of Consumer Reports magazine features the "Best Products of the Year." Among the listed items are 12 DSLRs, including two Pentax cameras! The K-5 is 9th, and the Kr is 11th, although both have the same total score (67) and are separated by an evil N***n product, the D5100. The twelve include 4 each from C***N and N***N, 2 from Pentax, and one each from Oly and Sony. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
I've always felt CR's camera reviews to be naive. Also, don't like the idea of price being a component of the quality formula. That might, however, explain the Carl Zeiss "poor" rating. Jack Davis http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/jackdavis http://www.photolightimages.com/ - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 10:30 AM Subject: Re: OT: Consumer Reports "P. J. Alling" wrote: >For just about forever, I've disagreed with Consumer Reports on >photographic equipment. Once Herbert Keppler wrote an editorial in Modern Photography asking its readers to warn their friends not to pay attention to Consumer Reports articles on camera equipment. This was occasioned by CR giving the Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 lens a rating of "poor" (and not specifying what, if any, tests were done to reach this conclusion). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
On Mon, Oct 01, 2012 at 12:50:24PM -0500, Walt wrote: > On 10/1/2012 12:30 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > >"P. J. Alling" wrote: > > > >>For just about forever, I've disagreed with Consumer Reports on > >>photographic equipment. > >Once Herbert Keppler wrote an editorial in Modern Photography asking > >its readers to warn their friends not to pay attention to Consumer > >Reports articles on camera equipment. This was occasioned by CR giving > >the Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 lens a rating of "poor" (and not specifying > >what, if any, tests were done to reach this conclusion). > > > I suspect it fared poorly in zooming capabilities. Yeah - that as well. And, to be fair, I'm sure that for the vast majority of the people who mostly base their purchases on the Consumer Reports ratings a Zeiss 50mm/f1.4 would be a poor choice of lens. Come to that, for most of the time I suspect I'm better off with my DA* 16-50/f2.8 mounted on my camera than I would be with a Zeiss 50mm/f1.4 (even if there were a comparable one in Pentax KAF mount). And for the few times where the extra couple of stops would be useful I've got the A50/1.4 and F50/1.7 lying around. And that's sticking with a DSLR. I think the EPL-1 with both the 14-42 and 40-150 probably cost less than the Zeiss lens alone. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
On 10/1/2012 12:30 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: "P. J. Alling" wrote: For just about forever, I've disagreed with Consumer Reports on photographic equipment. Once Herbert Keppler wrote an editorial in Modern Photography asking its readers to warn their friends not to pay attention to Consumer Reports articles on camera equipment. This was occasioned by CR giving the Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 lens a rating of "poor" (and not specifying what, if any, tests were done to reach this conclusion). I suspect it fared poorly in zooming capabilities. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
On Mon, Oct 01, 2012 at 01:30:51PM -0400, Mark Roberts wrote: > "P. J. Alling" wrote: > > >For just about forever, I've disagreed with Consumer Reports on > >photographic equipment. > > Once Herbert Keppler wrote an editorial in Modern Photography asking > its readers to warn their friends not to pay attention to Consumer > Reports articles on camera equipment. This was occasioned by CR giving > the Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 lens a rating of "poor" (and not specifying > what, if any, tests were done to reach this conclusion). It's CR. I'll bet a contributing reason was "not good value for money". They aren't giving ratings based soleley on technical performance. I expect they'd give a similarly poor rating to a Bugatti Veyron. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
I agree with P.J. As look as they mention Pentax cameras (especially my cheap but beloved Kr), I am happy. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > "P. J. Alling" wrote: > >>For just about forever, I've disagreed with Consumer Reports on >>photographic equipment. > > Once Herbert Keppler wrote an editorial in Modern Photography asking > its readers to warn their friends not to pay attention to Consumer > Reports articles on camera equipment. This was occasioned by CR giving > the Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 lens a rating of "poor" (and not specifying > what, if any, tests were done to reach this conclusion). > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
"P. J. Alling" wrote: >For just about forever, I've disagreed with Consumer Reports on >photographic equipment. Once Herbert Keppler wrote an editorial in Modern Photography asking its readers to warn their friends not to pay attention to Consumer Reports articles on camera equipment. This was occasioned by CR giving the Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 lens a rating of "poor" (and not specifying what, if any, tests were done to reach this conclusion). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Consumer Reports
For just about forever, I've disagreed with Consumer Reports on photographic equipment. They always seem to be missing the point. Judging cameras and lenses by the same criteria you use for washers and bicycles is at best silly, yet that's much of what they do. Still it's nice to see that Pentax is making a better washing machine now than in the past. On 10/1/2012 12:19 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: The November 2012 issue of Consumer Reports magazine features the "Best Products of the Year." Among the listed items are 12 DSLRs, including two Pentax cameras! The K-5 is 9th, and the Kr is 11th, although both have the same total score (67) and are separated by an evil N***n product, the D5100. The twelve include 4 each from C***N and N***N, 2 from Pentax, and one each from Oly and Sony. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- Don't lose heart, they might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthly search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
