Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
John Francis wrote: On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 03:47:06PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). Wait, you mean the Sky and Solstice aren't the exact same rebadged car? Are you certain? What sort of differences are there? The Solstice has been severely beaten with the ugly stick (apparently Pontiac didn't use them all up when they built the Aztek). Wasn't the Aztek another Opel derivative? -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
I believe it was a home grown abomination. Christian wrote: John Francis wrote: On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 03:47:06PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). Wait, you mean the Sky and Solstice aren't the exact same rebadged car? Are you certain? What sort of differences are there? The Solstice has been severely beaten with the ugly stick (apparently Pontiac didn't use them all up when they built the Aztek). Wasn't the Aztek another Opel derivative? -- I am personally a member of the Cream of the Illuminati. A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world -- Anonymous -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
Christian wrote: Wasn't the Aztek another Opel derivative? P. J. Alling wrote: I believe it was a home grown abomination. Yeah, I just googled it AFTER I sent my message to the list... The Aztek had among the highest CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) scores in its class, and won the appellation of Most Appealing Entry Sport Utility Vehicle in 2001 from J.D. Power and Associates, an independent consumer survey organization who noted: The Aztek scores highest or second highest in every APEAL component measure except exterior styling. HAR! -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
GM should have given up on attempting styling with the Buick Roadmaster Stationwagon of 1991-96. Probably they should have given up before that, but the Roadmaster, (or as I always thought of it the :Toadmaster, should have capped it). Christian wrote: Christian wrote: Wasn't the Aztek another Opel derivative? P. J. Alling wrote: I believe it was a home grown abomination. Yeah, I just googled it AFTER I sent my message to the list... The Aztek had among the highest CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) scores in its class, and won the appellation of Most Appealing Entry Sport Utility Vehicle in 2001 from J.D. Power and Associates, an independent consumer survey organization who noted: The Aztek scores highest or second highest in every APEAL component measure except exterior styling. HAR! -- I am personally a member of the Cream of the Illuminati. A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world -- Anonymous -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
And they're doing good work today. GM car designs come from all over the world. The newest Cadillacs have won several international awards, and I expect the Impala will do likewise. The latest Corvette is quite nice as well. Some, like Pontiac, are targeted at a demographic that is less sophisticated than most of the PDML members. But that's just good marketing. If you're selling more than one brand, you have to broaden your reach. Paul -- Original message -- From: David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] GM (USA). Some of it's other international design teams have done alright work. Cheers, Dave On Jan 8, 2008 11:27 PM, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GM should have given up on attempting styling with the Buick Roadmaster Stationwagon of 1991-96. Probably they should have given up before that, but the Roadmaster, (or as I always thought of it the :Toadmaster, should have capped it). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
I high CSI score only means that the people who bought it like it. From all the reports I've heard, it was a high quality vehicle. I believe it's the same platform as the Buick Renegade. Unfortunately, the styling didn't have broad appeal. I found it butt ugly. Paul -- Original message -- From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Christian wrote: Wasn't the Aztek another Opel derivative? P. J. Alling wrote: I believe it was a home grown abomination. Yeah, I just googled it AFTER I sent my message to the list... The Aztek had among the highest CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) scores in its class, and won the appellation of Most Appealing Entry Sport Utility Vehicle in 2001 from J.D. Power and Associates, an independent consumer survey organization who noted: The Aztek scores highest or second highest in every APEAL component measure except exterior styling. HAR! -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
Saturn was a market failure and the changes were driven by its effective elimination from viability by 2003. It is now effectively the replacement for Oldsmobile in market segment and is selling far better than it ever did when semi-independant. -Adam On 1/8/08, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's what Saturn was supposed to be, a self sufficient laboratory for engineering and process design. Which is why the original Saturn was a completely new platform, unrelated to anything else in the GM line, and the factory was built from the ground up with special labor rules. That plan lasted about as long as Disney's original concept for Epcot, which was supposed to be a planned community of tomorrow, then they discovered that they'd have to deal with real people... Adam Maas wrote: The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). The other Saturns are Opels except for the Vue, and therefore german designed. Nobody's got the money or infrastructure to do completely independant engineering (even Holden, the most independant of the GM marks, uses Chevy drivetrains). -Adam On 1/7/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Saturn division originally built very good little cars, a great first cut on subcompacts. GM simply starved them of money until they could be made over in the image of the parent company. Now Saturns are just plastic clad GM extrusions. They build keepers but the fish keeps rotting from the head... My dad got one of the very first Saturn coupes in California, and for the rest of the '90s my little brothers and I were big Saturn fans (we were young and impressionable, what can I say). Every year we went to the San Francisco International Auto Show, and I saw the evolution of the Saturn brand from the beginning. When GM started drawing them in closer, they just went downhill. Quality, looks, everything. The only interesting unique thing Saturn has put out this decade was the 2001 special edition yellow coupe, which I thought was just beautiful, especially with the black yellow leather interior. My mom got one, but with plain black cloth interior (boring). The other product of theirs that I like is the Sky roadster, but it's just another GM clone, like the rest of Saturn's cars now. I was very sad when my dad sold his little red Saturn, but it was getting old and he needed something he could haul gardening supplies with. Now he's driving a Honda CR-V, and I suspect future car purchases that my parents make will be Japanese as well. My parents just don't trust the American car companies anymore. Me, I'd give anything for a new Dodge Challenger. John Celio The Saturn Score: Dad: original '91 SC-1 Coupe, now drives a Honda CR-V Mom: 2001 yellow special edition SC-2 Bro 1: 2000 (?) SL-2 Bro 2: 2004/5 Ion Me: yet to own a Saturn, much less drive one. My family's cars are all manual transmission, which I don't drive well enough to risk ruining a clutch or two. Plus, I'm not a GM fan, and currently loathe my little Chevy. Case in point: http://www.neovenator.com/2008/01/is-time-to-bitch.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- I am personally a member of the Cream of the Illuminati. A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world -- Anonymous -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
Same platform as the even uglier Buick Rendevous. At least the Aztek looked unique. But owners seem to love the things, ugly as they are. Very practical vehicle. I'd consider owning one, they get decent mileage, are surprisingly reliable for a Pontiac, have plenty of space, some nice features (including the tent) and AWD. But gawd are they ugly. -Adam On 1/8/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I high CSI score only means that the people who bought it like it. From all the reports I've heard, it was a high quality vehicle. I believe it's the same platform as the Buick Renegade. Unfortunately, the styling didn't have broad appeal. I found it butt ugly. Paul -- Original message -- From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Christian wrote: Wasn't the Aztek another Opel derivative? P. J. Alling wrote: I believe it was a home grown abomination. Yeah, I just googled it AFTER I sent my message to the list... The Aztek had among the highest CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) scores in its class, and won the appellation of Most Appealing Entry Sport Utility Vehicle in 2001 from J.D. Power and Associates, an independent consumer survey organization who noted: The Aztek scores highest or second highest in every APEAL component measure except exterior styling. HAR! -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
Saturn was a market failure because GM management, after Roger Smith left the chairmanship, starved if of capitol. The original cars sold well. Much of like Pentax, Saturn sold as many units as they could produce, but they could never produce enough units with just one plant, and no capital for expansion. After about 10 years without a major redesign, 6 with out a real styling change, (despite of being designed to be easily re-styled), Saturns were hopelessly outdated. GM's management killed the entire concept, starting from almost the beginning, then closed the factory, and disbanded the design and management teams. It's hard to blame a startup for failure when they aren't given a real chance. new investment is denied and even minor change is stifled. Yes they are the replacement for Oldsmobile, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement for GM's decision making or for that matter a real indictment of Saturn. There was after all more perceived value in the Saturn name than in the Oldsmobile name after GM got through with them. Adam Maas wrote: Saturn was a market failure and the changes were driven by its effective elimination from viability by 2003. It is now effectively the replacement for Oldsmobile in market segment and is selling far better than it ever did when semi-independant. -Adam On 1/8/08, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's what Saturn was supposed to be, a self sufficient laboratory for engineering and process design. Which is why the original Saturn was a completely new platform, unrelated to anything else in the GM line, and the factory was built from the ground up with special labor rules. That plan lasted about as long as Disney's original concept for Epcot, which was supposed to be a planned community of tomorrow, then they discovered that they'd have to deal with real people... Adam Maas wrote: The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). The other Saturns are Opels except for the Vue, and therefore german designed. Nobody's got the money or infrastructure to do completely independant engineering (even Holden, the most independant of the GM marks, uses Chevy drivetrains). -Adam On 1/7/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Saturn division originally built very good little cars, a great first cut on subcompacts. GM simply starved them of money until they could be made over in the image of the parent company. Now Saturns are just plastic clad GM extrusions. They build keepers but the fish keeps rotting from the head... My dad got one of the very first Saturn coupes in California, and for the rest of the '90s my little brothers and I were big Saturn fans (we were young and impressionable, what can I say). Every year we went to the San Francisco International Auto Show, and I saw the evolution of the Saturn brand from the beginning. When GM started drawing them in closer, they just went downhill. Quality, looks, everything. The only interesting unique thing Saturn has put out this decade was the 2001 special edition yellow coupe, which I thought was just beautiful, especially with the black yellow leather interior. My mom got one, but with plain black cloth interior (boring). The other product of theirs that I like is the Sky roadster, but it's just another GM clone, like the rest of Saturn's cars now. I was very sad when my dad sold his little red Saturn, but it was getting old and he needed something he could haul gardening supplies with. Now he's driving a Honda CR-V, and I suspect future car purchases that my parents make will be Japanese as well. My parents just don't trust the American car companies anymore. Me, I'd give anything for a new Dodge Challenger. John Celio The Saturn Score: Dad: original '91 SC-1 Coupe, now drives a Honda CR-V Mom: 2001 yellow special edition SC-2 Bro 1: 2000 (?) SL-2 Bro 2: 2004/5 Ion Me: yet to own a Saturn, much less drive one. My family's cars are all manual transmission, which I don't drive well enough to risk ruining a clutch or two. Plus, I'm not a GM fan, and currently loathe my little Chevy. Case in point: http://www.neovenator.com/2008/01/is-time-to-bitch.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- I am personally a member of the Cream of the Illuminati. A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world -- Anonymous -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the
OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
The Saturn division originally built very good little cars, a great first cut on subcompacts. GM simply starved them of money until they could be made over in the image of the parent company. Now Saturns are just plastic clad GM extrusions. They build keepers but the fish keeps rotting from the head... My dad got one of the very first Saturn coupes in California, and for the rest of the '90s my little brothers and I were big Saturn fans (we were young and impressionable, what can I say). Every year we went to the San Francisco International Auto Show, and I saw the evolution of the Saturn brand from the beginning. When GM started drawing them in closer, they just went downhill. Quality, looks, everything. The only interesting unique thing Saturn has put out this decade was the 2001 special edition yellow coupe, which I thought was just beautiful, especially with the black yellow leather interior. My mom got one, but with plain black cloth interior (boring). The other product of theirs that I like is the Sky roadster, but it's just another GM clone, like the rest of Saturn's cars now. I was very sad when my dad sold his little red Saturn, but it was getting old and he needed something he could haul gardening supplies with. Now he's driving a Honda CR-V, and I suspect future car purchases that my parents make will be Japanese as well. My parents just don't trust the American car companies anymore. Me, I'd give anything for a new Dodge Challenger. John Celio The Saturn Score: Dad: original '91 SC-1 Coupe, now drives a Honda CR-V Mom: 2001 yellow special edition SC-2 Bro 1: 2000 (?) SL-2 Bro 2: 2004/5 Ion Me: yet to own a Saturn, much less drive one. My family's cars are all manual transmission, which I don't drive well enough to risk ruining a clutch or two. Plus, I'm not a GM fan, and currently loathe my little Chevy. Case in point: http://www.neovenator.com/2008/01/is-time-to-bitch.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). Wait, you mean the Sky and Solstice aren't the exact same rebadged car? Are you certain? What sort of differences are there? Oh, and when did GM aquire Opel? John Unrelated: what do you think it would take to get GM to make a new Firebird? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
Opel has been a GM mark since 1931, apart from brief government control during the Nazi era. GM initially invested in Opel in 1929, buying 80%, and bought the rest in 1931. Several Opel designs have made it over here under different names, starting with the Cadillac Catera/Saturn L100. The Sky Red Line is identical to the Opel GT(Argh, forgot the Speedster's the earlier model, with the mid engine not the current model) . The only differences are the badges, Opel doesn't sell the base model. Daewoo also sells this car as the G2X. The Solstice is based on the same platform (the Kappa) but with completely different sheetmetal and different suspension and options (The Solstice is actually the faster vehicle due to better suspension tuning). -Adam On 1/7/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). Wait, you mean the Sky and Solstice aren't the exact same rebadged car? Are you certain? What sort of differences are there? Oh, and when did GM aquire Opel? John Unrelated: what do you think it would take to get GM to make a new Firebird? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
Also, Saturn seems to be essentially the US branding for Opel as of this year, much as Vauxhall is in the UK and some low-end Holdens are in Australia. All of the current Saturn line are similar or identical to Opels but manufacture is shared. THe Astra and Sky/GT are identical, while the Aura and Vue are similar to their Opel brethren (Vectra and Antara). The Outlook is the sole exception, but it's a product that wouldn't sell in Europe anyways. -Adam On 1/7/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). Wait, you mean the Sky and Solstice aren't the exact same rebadged car? Are you certain? What sort of differences are there? Oh, and when did GM aquire Opel? John Unrelated: what do you think it would take to get GM to make a new Firebird? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Saturn (was Re: Question for automobile enthusiasts on the list)
On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 03:47:06PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Sky's interesting, as it's a straight rebadge of the Opel Speedster (Same styling and drivetrain) unlike the fairly extensively modified Solstice (which is based on the Speedster, but not identical). Wait, you mean the Sky and Solstice aren't the exact same rebadged car? Are you certain? What sort of differences are there? The Solstice has been severely beaten with the ugly stick (apparently Pontiac didn't use them all up when they built the Aztek). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
