Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
Practical experience shows that the best old FF lenses are quite decent performers on APS-C sensors, sometimes comparable to good 'digital' lenses (at least up to 12-16 megapixels), except for a typical higher CA and purple fringing. That's because you get rid of the weaker part of their image field. Oh, and that only applies to focale lengths around 35mm or longer (most if not all older wide-angle lenses are much overperformed by current APS-C digital sensors). On the other hand, I still have to find a single 'analog' lens which is comparable to newer lens designs on FF sensors with a pixel count of 24 or 36 MP. Heck, even most FF digital designs cannot cope with the D800 sensor! Sure you can use whatever lens you like on a modern FF DSLR (provided you can fit and focus it), but don't expect to exploit their potential. Dario -Messaggio originale- From: J.C. O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:57 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K3 problem using flash and AA My Reply : I disagree with regards to full frame. As long as the corner performance of the FF lenses matches 2/3 of the performance of the APSC lenses the overall system performance of FF will be equal to or greater than the Aps performance. Generally speaking, you dont need as high a performance FF lenses for better overall system performance than apsc. Its a larger format, it has more overall lines of resolution even if the absolute line pairs/mm is lower. Regard no AA filter, aliasing occurs when the incoming spatial frequencies are too fast for the sampling. With a high resolution sensor and cheaper lower resolution lenses, NO aliasing will likely occur. Aliasing is more likely to occur with super high spec ultra high resolution * or APO lenses, not average or poor ones. On 10/16/2013 9:38 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Darren Addy wrote: Cameras with no AA filter are going to separate the "men from the boys" as far as lenses are concerned. It is going to make APO and Star lenses almost mandatory. Either that or you are going to have to "enjoy" a lot more time in post-processing. This problem is exacerbated by a full frame sensor which uses the corners of the image circle that are getting cropped out by an APS-C camera. In short, those who want a full frame DSLR are either going to have to use their best lenses with it, or procure some. My reply: I keep telling that to all those funky boys begging Pentax for a full frame camera and counting on good lenses of the past they already own and treasure. Once FF will be available, you'll have to buy a whole new lens outfit based on new-generation lenses (provided they will be made available) or be satisfied with so-so performance. That's well known by Canon and Nikon shooters, and mostly neglected among dreaming Pentaxians. In brief, putting together a Pentax FF outfit won't cost you less than switching to Canon or Nikon, the advantage being you won't have to do that all at once. Dario -- J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. - Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com Versione: 2013.0.3408 / Database dei virus: 3222/6755 - Data di rilascio: 16/10/2013 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
My first digital experience was with Pentax full frame lenses on an *istD. It was not pleasing. CA and fringing were frequently a problem. I never owned some of the best full frame lenses, but I came away from my early digital efforts convinced that new lenses designed for APS-C digital were the way to go. I now use DA* lenses almost exclusively on my K-5, and I'm extremely pleased with the performance. Looking forward to trying them on the K-3. I expect they'll make a great team. Paul On Oct 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote: > Practical experience shows that the best old FF lenses are quite decent > performers on APS-C sensors, sometimes comparable to good 'digital' lenses > (at least up to 12-16 megapixels), except for a typical higher CA and purple > fringing. That's because you get rid of the weaker part of their image > field. Oh, and that only applies to focale lengths around 35mm or longer > (most if not all older wide-angle lenses are much overperformed by current > APS-C digital sensors). > On the other hand, I still have to find a single 'analog' lens which is > comparable to newer lens designs on FF sensors with a pixel count of 24 or > 36 MP. > Heck, even most FF digital designs cannot cope with the D800 sensor! Sure > you can use whatever lens you like on a modern FF DSLR (provided you can fit > and focus it), but don't expect to exploit their potential. > > Dario > > -Messaggio originale- From: J.C. O'Connell > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:57 PM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: K3 problem using flash and AA > > My Reply : I disagree with regards to full frame. As long as the corner > performance of the FF lenses > matches 2/3 of the performance of the APSC lenses the overall system > performance of FF will > be equal to or greater than the Aps performance. Generally speaking, > you dont need as high a > performance FF lenses for better overall system performance than apsc. > Its a larger format, it has > more overall lines of resolution even if the absolute line pairs/mm is > lower. > > > Regard no AA filter, aliasing occurs when the incoming spatial > frequencies are too fast > for the sampling. With a high resolution sensor and cheaper lower > resolution lenses, > NO aliasing will likely occur. Aliasing is more likely to occur with > super high spec ultra > high resolution * or APO lenses, not average or poor ones. > > > > On 10/16/2013 9:38 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: >> Darren Addy wrote: >> >> Cameras with no AA filter are going to separate the "men from the >> boys" as far as lenses are concerned. It is going to make APO and Star >> lenses almost mandatory. Either that or you are going to have to >> "enjoy" a lot more time in post-processing. This problem is >> exacerbated by a full frame sensor which uses the corners of the image >> circle that are getting cropped out by an APS-C camera. In short, >> those who want a full frame DSLR are either going to have to use their >> best lenses with it, or procure some. >> >> My reply: >> >> I keep telling that to all those funky boys begging Pentax for a full >> frame camera and counting on good lenses of the past they already own and >> treasure. Once FF will be available, you'll have to buy a whole new lens >> outfit based on new-generation lenses (provided they will be made >> available) or be satisfied with so-so performance. >> >> That's well known by Canon and Nikon shooters, and mostly neglected among >> dreaming Pentaxians. In brief, putting together a Pentax FF outfit won't >> cost you less than switching to Canon or Nikon, the advantage being you >> won't have to do that all at once. >> >> Dario >> > > > -- > J.C. O'Connell > hifis...@gate.net > -- > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > > > - > Nessun virus nel messaggio. > Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com > Versione: 2013.0.3408 / Database dei virus: 3222/6755 - Data di rilascio: > 16/10/2013 > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
>Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:53:48 -0400 >From: Paul Stenquist >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA) >Message-ID: <9490eec8-bbc6-49d4-b6b9-37f1a984e...@comcast.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >My first digital experience was with Pentax full frame lenses on an *istD. It was not pleasing. >CA and fringing were frequently a problem. I never owned some of the best full frame lenses, >but I came away from my early digital >efforts convinced that new lenses designed for APS-C digital >were the way to go. I now use DA* lenses almost exclusively on my K-5, and I'm extremely pleased >with the performance. Looking forward to trying them on the >K-3. I expect they'll make a great team. > >Paul This is exactly why I have parted with all my (but one) average/good lenses (that being the FA28-105). It is a worthwhile investment. Also, I parted with the FA50/1.4 and reverted to the F50/1.7. It is noticeably sharper and I would recommend that people give it strong consideration. Especially since it often costs about the same or less than the DA50/1.8. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
Purple fringing as in sensor bloom happens in high contrast areas, I suspect that in some ways, some very good on film, older lenses are too good for digital. They achieve apparent high sharpness by emphasizing contrast which under many conditions exacerbates bloom. On 10/16/2013 1:21 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Practical experience shows that the best old FF lenses are quite decent performers on APS-C sensors, sometimes comparable to good 'digital' lenses (at least up to 12-16 megapixels), except for a typical higher CA and purple fringing. That's because you get rid of the weaker part of their image field. Oh, and that only applies to focale lengths around 35mm or longer (most if not all older wide-angle lenses are much overperformed by current APS-C digital sensors). On the other hand, I still have to find a single 'analog' lens which is comparable to newer lens designs on FF sensors with a pixel count of 24 or 36 MP. Heck, even most FF digital designs cannot cope with the D800 sensor! Sure you can use whatever lens you like on a modern FF DSLR (provided you can fit and focus it), but don't expect to exploit their potential. Dario -Messaggio originale- From: J.C. O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:57 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K3 problem using flash and AA My Reply : I disagree with regards to full frame. As long as the corner performance of the FF lenses matches 2/3 of the performance of the APSC lenses the overall system performance of FF will be equal to or greater than the Aps performance. Generally speaking, you dont need as high a performance FF lenses for better overall system performance than apsc. Its a larger format, it has more overall lines of resolution even if the absolute line pairs/mm is lower. Regard no AA filter, aliasing occurs when the incoming spatial frequencies are too fast for the sampling. With a high resolution sensor and cheaper lower resolution lenses, NO aliasing will likely occur. Aliasing is more likely to occur with super high spec ultra high resolution * or APO lenses, not average or poor ones. On 10/16/2013 9:38 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Darren Addy wrote: Cameras with no AA filter are going to separate the "men from the boys" as far as lenses are concerned. It is going to make APO and Star lenses almost mandatory. Either that or you are going to have to "enjoy" a lot more time in post-processing. This problem is exacerbated by a full frame sensor which uses the corners of the image circle that are getting cropped out by an APS-C camera. In short, those who want a full frame DSLR are either going to have to use their best lenses with it, or procure some. My reply: I keep telling that to all those funky boys begging Pentax for a full frame camera and counting on good lenses of the past they already own and treasure. Once FF will be available, you'll have to buy a whole new lens outfit based on new-generation lenses (provided they will be made available) or be satisfied with so-so performance. That's well known by Canon and Nikon shooters, and mostly neglected among dreaming Pentaxians. In brief, putting together a Pentax FF outfit won't cost you less than switching to Canon or Nikon, the advantage being you won't have to do that all at once. Dario -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
I also agree that new lenses are better, even on APS-C. I use almost exclusively new lenses on my K-5IIs (DA 12-24 + DA 17-70 + DA* 50-135, all together exceeding 95% of my shots ), with the FA 31 and FA 77 Limiteds as the few noticeable exceptions to my all-digital approach. However, I have the feeling that many FF lenses are more troubled when dealing with modern digital FF cameras than they are on APS-C models. But the very point is "once you buy a FF DSLR now, you have to buy new lenses too". Dario -Messaggio originale- From: Paul Stenquist Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:53 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA) My first digital experience was with Pentax full frame lenses on an *istD. It was not pleasing. CA and fringing were frequently a problem. I never owned some of the best full frame lenses, but I came away from my early digital efforts convinced that new lenses designed for APS-C digital were the way to go. I now use DA* lenses almost exclusively on my K-5, and I'm extremely pleased with the performance. Looking forward to trying them on the K-3. I expect they'll make a great team. Paul On Oct 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Practical experience shows that the best old FF lenses are quite decent performers on APS-C sensors, sometimes comparable to good 'digital' lenses (at least up to 12-16 megapixels), except for a typical higher CA and purple fringing. That's because you get rid of the weaker part of their image field. Oh, and that only applies to focale lengths around 35mm or longer (most if not all older wide-angle lenses are much overperformed by current APS-C digital sensors). On the other hand, I still have to find a single 'analog' lens which is comparable to newer lens designs on FF sensors with a pixel count of 24 or 36 MP. Heck, even most FF digital designs cannot cope with the D800 sensor! Sure you can use whatever lens you like on a modern FF DSLR (provided you can fit and focus it), but don't expect to exploit their potential. Dario -Messaggio originale- From: J.C. O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:57 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K3 problem using flash and AA My Reply : I disagree with regards to full frame. As long as the corner performance of the FF lenses matches 2/3 of the performance of the APSC lenses the overall system performance of FF will be equal to or greater than the Aps performance. Generally speaking, you dont need as high a performance FF lenses for better overall system performance than apsc. Its a larger format, it has more overall lines of resolution even if the absolute line pairs/mm is lower. Regard no AA filter, aliasing occurs when the incoming spatial frequencies are too fast for the sampling. With a high resolution sensor and cheaper lower resolution lenses, NO aliasing will likely occur. Aliasing is more likely to occur with super high spec ultra high resolution * or APO lenses, not average or poor ones. On 10/16/2013 9:38 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Darren Addy wrote: Cameras with no AA filter are going to separate the "men from the boys" as far as lenses are concerned. It is going to make APO and Star lenses almost mandatory. Either that or you are going to have to "enjoy" a lot more time in post-processing. This problem is exacerbated by a full frame sensor which uses the corners of the image circle that are getting cropped out by an APS-C camera. In short, those who want a full frame DSLR are either going to have to use their best lenses with it, or procure some. My reply: I keep telling that to all those funky boys begging Pentax for a full frame camera and counting on good lenses of the past they already own and treasure. Once FF will be available, you'll have to buy a whole new lens outfit based on new-generation lenses (provided they will be made available) or be satisfied with so-so performance. That's well known by Canon and Nikon shooters, and mostly neglected among dreaming Pentaxians. In brief, putting together a Pentax FF outfit won't cost you less than switching to Canon or Nikon, the advantage being you won't have to do that all at once. Dario -- J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. - Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com Versione: 2013.0.3408 / Database dei virus: 3222/6755 - Data di rilascio: 16/10/2013 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/m
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
Purple fringing was a problem with A*135 on *istD, but it seals to be less on cmos sensors. It works great on K-5. DagT Sendt fra min iPad > Den 16. okt. 2013 kl. 21:12 skrev "P.J. Alling" : > > Purple fringing as in sensor bloom happens in high contrast areas, I suspect > that in some ways, some very good on film, older lenses are too good for > digital. They achieve apparent high sharpness by emphasizing contrast which > under many conditions exacerbates bloom. > >> On 10/16/2013 1:21 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote: >> Practical experience shows that the best old FF lenses are quite decent >> performers on APS-C sensors, sometimes comparable to good 'digital' lenses >> (at least up to 12-16 megapixels), except for a typical higher CA and purple >> fringing. That's because you get rid of the weaker part of their image >> field. Oh, and that only applies to focale lengths around 35mm or longer >> (most if not all older wide-angle lenses are much overperformed by current >> APS-C digital sensors). >> On the other hand, I still have to find a single 'analog' lens which is >> comparable to newer lens designs on FF sensors with a pixel count of 24 or >> 36 MP. >> Heck, even most FF digital designs cannot cope with the D800 sensor! Sure >> you can use whatever lens you like on a modern FF DSLR (provided you can fit >> and focus it), but don't expect to exploit their potential. >> >> Dario >> >> -Messaggio originale- From: J.C. O'Connell >> Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:57 PM >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> Subject: Re: K3 problem using flash and AA >> >> My Reply : I disagree with regards to full frame. As long as the corner >> performance of the FF lenses >> matches 2/3 of the performance of the APSC lenses the overall system >> performance of FF will >> be equal to or greater than the Aps performance. Generally speaking, >> you dont need as high a >> performance FF lenses for better overall system performance than apsc. >> Its a larger format, it has >> more overall lines of resolution even if the absolute line pairs/mm is >> lower. >> >> >> Regard no AA filter, aliasing occurs when the incoming spatial >> frequencies are too fast >> for the sampling. With a high resolution sensor and cheaper lower >> resolution lenses, >> NO aliasing will likely occur. Aliasing is more likely to occur with >> super high spec ultra >> high resolution * or APO lenses, not average or poor ones. >> >> >> >>> On 10/16/2013 9:38 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: >>> Darren Addy wrote: >>> >>> Cameras with no AA filter are going to separate the "men from the >>> boys" as far as lenses are concerned. It is going to make APO and Star >>> lenses almost mandatory. Either that or you are going to have to >>> "enjoy" a lot more time in post-processing. This problem is >>> exacerbated by a full frame sensor which uses the corners of the image >>> circle that are getting cropped out by an APS-C camera. In short, >>> those who want a full frame DSLR are either going to have to use their >>> best lenses with it, or procure some. >>> >>> My reply: >>> >>> I keep telling that to all those funky boys begging Pentax for a full >>> frame camera and counting on good lenses of the past they already own and >>> treasure. Once FF will be available, you'll have to buy a whole new lens >>> outfit based on new-generation lenses (provided they will be made >>> available) or be satisfied with so-so performance. >>> >>> That's well known by Canon and Nikon shooters, and mostly neglected among >>> dreaming Pentaxians. In brief, putting together a Pentax FF outfit won't >>> cost you less than switching to Canon or Nikon, the advantage being you >>> won't have to do that all at once. >>> >>> Dario > > > -- > A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, > crazier. > > - H.L.Mencken > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
I doubt these lenses do any worse on digital than they did on film. We are just looking more closely at the results. If the sensor resolves the lens we don't need AA filters. Even more resolution might open the door to some interesting signal processing. Dario Bonazza wrote: >Practical experience shows that the best old FF lenses are quite decent >performers on APS-C sensors, sometimes comparable to good 'digital' >lenses >(at least up to 12-16 megapixels), except for a typical higher CA and >purple >fringing. That's because you get rid of the weaker part of their image >field. Oh, and that only applies to focale lengths around 35mm or >longer >(most if not all older wide-angle lenses are much overperformed by >current >APS-C digital sensors). >On the other hand, I still have to find a single 'analog' lens which is >comparable to newer lens designs on FF sensors with a pixel count of 24 >or >36 MP. >Heck, even most FF digital designs cannot cope with the D800 sensor! >Sure >you can use whatever lens you like on a modern FF DSLR (provided you >can fit >and focus it), but don't expect to exploit their potential. > >Dario > >-Messaggio originale- >From: J.C. O'Connell >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:57 PM >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: K3 problem using flash and AA > >My Reply : I disagree with regards to full frame. As long as the corner >performance of the FF lenses >matches 2/3 of the performance of the APSC lenses the overall system >performance of FF will >be equal to or greater than the Aps performance. Generally speaking, >you dont need as high a >performance FF lenses for better overall system performance than apsc. >Its a larger format, it has >more overall lines of resolution even if the absolute line pairs/mm is >lower. > > >Regard no AA filter, aliasing occurs when the incoming spatial >frequencies are too fast >for the sampling. With a high resolution sensor and cheaper lower >resolution lenses, >NO aliasing will likely occur. Aliasing is more likely to occur with >super high spec ultra >high resolution * or APO lenses, not average or poor ones. > > > >On 10/16/2013 9:38 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: >> Darren Addy wrote: >> >> Cameras with no AA filter are going to separate the "men from the >> boys" as far as lenses are concerned. It is going to make APO and >Star >> lenses almost mandatory. Either that or you are going to have to >> "enjoy" a lot more time in post-processing. This problem is >> exacerbated by a full frame sensor which uses the corners of the >image >> circle that are getting cropped out by an APS-C camera. In short, >> those who want a full frame DSLR are either going to have to use >their >> best lenses with it, or procure some. >> >> My reply: >> >> I keep telling that to all those funky boys begging Pentax for a full >> frame camera and counting on good lenses of the past they already own >and >> treasure. Once FF will be available, you'll have to buy a whole new >lens >> outfit based on new-generation lenses (provided they will be made >> available) or be satisfied with so-so performance. >> >> That's well known by Canon and Nikon shooters, and mostly neglected >among >> dreaming Pentaxians. In brief, putting together a Pentax FF outfit >won't >> cost you less than switching to Canon or Nikon, the advantage being >you >> won't have to do that all at once. >> >> Dario >> -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
Larry Colen wrote: I doubt these lenses do any worse on digital than they did on film. We are just looking more closely at the results. My reply: Yes, this is another important point. Now we don't accept as decent a lens performance which was perceived as great on film. Another main factor is lens performance over image field. Old lenses on 24 to 36 MP FF can be rather good at center, but will look poorer and poorer as you go towards corners and wider apertures. On APS-C, the same lens will look perhaps one step worse at center (yet usually still acceptable) and not so much worsening at corners (just because the very bad areas at corners are cropped out by smaller sensor). This is what I mean about older lenses being more useable on APS-C than FF. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA)
I see it as a mixed bag. I have some old film lenses that were great on film and are great on digital - A* 200 f4 macro, A*400 f2.8, Sigma 70-200 f2.8 EX. But, my Kiron 105 2.8 macro, which was great on film, is not too good on digital. On the other hand, the Tokina ATX 400 f5.6, which was so-so on film,positively shines on digital. My guess is that film benefited more from the lens resolution but digital sensors benefit more from lens actuance (edge contrast). You are probably correct that most film lenses will not look so great on a FF sensor, especially around the edges. Mark On 10/16/2013 3:14 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote: I also agree that new lenses are better, even on APS-C. I use almost exclusively new lenses on my K-5IIs (DA 12-24 + DA 17-70 + DA* 50-135, all together exceeding 95% of my shots ), with the FA 31 and FA 77 Limiteds as the few noticeable exceptions to my all-digital approach. However, I have the feeling that many FF lenses are more troubled when dealing with modern digital FF cameras than they are on APS-C models. But the very point is "once you buy a FF DSLR now, you have to buy new lenses too". Dario -Messaggio originale- From: Paul Stenquist Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:53 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA) My first digital experience was with Pentax full frame lenses on an *istD. It was not pleasing. CA and fringing were frequently a problem. I never owned some of the best full frame lenses, but I came away from my early digital efforts convinced that new lenses designed for APS-C digital were the way to go. I now use DA* lenses almost exclusively on my K-5, and I'm extremely pleased with the performance. Looking forward to trying them on the K-3. I expect they'll make a great team. Paul On Oct 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Practical experience shows that the best old FF lenses are quite decent performers on APS-C sensors, sometimes comparable to good 'digital' lenses (at least up to 12-16 megapixels), except for a typical higher CA and purple fringing. That's because you get rid of the weaker part of their image field. Oh, and that only applies to focale lengths around 35mm or longer (most if not all older wide-angle lenses are much overperformed by current APS-C digital sensors). On the other hand, I still have to find a single 'analog' lens which is comparable to newer lens designs on FF sensors with a pixel count of 24 or 36 MP. Heck, even most FF digital designs cannot cope with the D800 sensor! Sure you can use whatever lens you like on a modern FF DSLR (provided you can fit and focus it), but don't expect to exploit their potential. Dario -Messaggio originale- From: J.C. O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:57 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K3 problem using flash and AA My Reply : I disagree with regards to full frame. As long as the corner performance of the FF lenses matches 2/3 of the performance of the APSC lenses the overall system performance of FF will be equal to or greater than the Aps performance. Generally speaking, you dont need as high a performance FF lenses for better overall system performance than apsc. Its a larger format, it has more overall lines of resolution even if the absolute line pairs/mm is lower. Regard no AA filter, aliasing occurs when the incoming spatial frequencies are too fast for the sampling. With a high resolution sensor and cheaper lower resolution lenses, NO aliasing will likely occur. Aliasing is more likely to occur with super high spec ultra high resolution * or APO lenses, not average or poor ones. On 10/16/2013 9:38 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Darren Addy wrote: Cameras with no AA filter are going to separate the "men from the boys" as far as lenses are concerned. It is going to make APO and Star lenses almost mandatory. Either that or you are going to have to "enjoy" a lot more time in post-processing. This problem is exacerbated by a full frame sensor which uses the corners of the image circle that are getting cropped out by an APS-C camera. In short, those who want a full frame DSLR are either going to have to use their best lenses with it, or procure some. My reply: I keep telling that to all those funky boys begging Pentax for a full frame camera and counting on good lenses of the past they already own and treasure. Once FF will be available, you'll have to buy a whole new lens outfit based on new-generation lenses (provided they will be made available) or be satisfied with so-so performance. That's well known by Canon and Nikon shooters, and mostly neglected among dreaming Pentaxians. In brief, putting together a Pentax FF outfit won't cost you less than switching to Canon or Nikon, the advantage being you won't have to do that all at once. Dario
Re: Fringing (Was Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA) )
A tech/curiosity point: Could it be that older lenses cause fringing because they focused the color spectrum on the film in a manner that accounted for film thickness, but since digital sensors are flat an achromatic design works better for digital than for film? Makes me wonder if an old gold dot dagor might be useful ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Fringing (Was Old/new lenses on FF (was K3 problem using flash and AA) )
CollinB wrote: >A tech/curiosity point: >Could it be that older lenses cause fringing because they focused the color >spectrum on the film in a manner that accounted for film thickness, >but since digital sensors are flat an achromatic design works better for >digital than for film? Improvements in sensor design are mostly responsible. The Sony Exmore sensors in particular were a great step forward and we're now at least two generations beyond the first of those. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
