Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, graywolf wrote: > It give correct exposure as long as you are no beyond the maximum > distance for that f-stop. That clinches it: the distance shown is the upper limit. See Len, I was the one confused :-) Thanks, graywolf and William, for your persistence. Kostas
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
- Original Message - From: "graywolf" Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > Darn, Bill, I have written 100,000 words on this list over the years trying to > say what you said in two sentences. And I still owe you a keyboard. William Robb
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
Older automatic flashs give you 1, 2, or 3 possible f-stops. The smaller f-stops give you less distance. You set the selected f-stop on the camera to the one the flash gives for that film. When there is enough light the flash shuts off. It give correct exposure as long as you are no beyond the maximum distance for that f-stop. A dedicated flash automatically sets the ME Super's shutter to the X sync speed when you turn it on. There are special circumstances, like fill flash when you have to know how to trick the flash to give good results, that are fairly easy on a fancy TTL flash, but mostly the plain old auto flashes work well. -- Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Len Paris wrote: I would hazard a guess that he was referring to daylight fill flash where older cameras had too slow a flash sync shutter speed to be as practical as some of the newer cameras. Perhaps I misunderstood? No, perhaps *I* don't understand (I am of the AF, TTL generation, you see :-). -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com "You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway."
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
Darn, Bill, I have written 100,000 words on this list over the years trying to say what you said in two sentences. -- William Robb wrote: People get too tied up in details, and it makes them think things won't work. If they would just go out and shoot some pictures.. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com "You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway."
RE: Optio S4 - first impressions
Ah, well. See there, I did mis-understand. Perhaps, if you had put that in your original e-mail... Anyway, sorry to have caused you upset. Len * There's no place like 127.0.0.1 > -Original Message- > From: Kostas Kavoussanakis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 9:49 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Optio S4 - first impressions > > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Len Paris wrote: > > > I would hazard a guess that he was referring to daylight fill flash > > where older cameras had too slow a flash sync shutter speed to be as > > practical as some of the newer cameras. Perhaps I misunderstood? > > No, perhaps *I* don't understand (I am of the AF, TTL generation, you > see :-). > > What I am saying is that one needs to set the aperture according to > the flash instructions. Unless you are very good at judging distances > before composing, this means that you *first* compose, *then* check > what the lens thinks the distance is, *then* set the aperture on the > lens as per the flash instructions (btw, the AF080C has such > complicated instructions that they span 2 pages on the manual and of > course don't feature on the flash). Which is exactly what Boj suggests > in his site. > > This also has the problem that someone else tells you what the DOF > should be. > > Perhaps William is right, I should be taking more pictures. However, > on the usual occasion that I don't get the verticals right or the > image is blurred because I can't hold the camera right or whatever, I > get angry with myself. On the odd occasion that I got back a > burnt-out, all white face of the daughter (and all the background > near-black) I thought, "no, these flashes are junk". And, ken what[1], > in that occasion the verticals were perfect and the daughter was doing > the right thing, so all that pestering and waiting would not have gone > amiss. > > That's all I am saying. > > Kostas > > [1] "Know something" in Scottish :-) >
RE: Optio S4 - first impressions
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Len Paris wrote: > I would hazard a guess that he was referring to daylight fill flash > where older cameras had too slow a flash sync shutter speed to be as > practical as some of the newer cameras. Perhaps I misunderstood? No, perhaps *I* don't understand (I am of the AF, TTL generation, you see :-). What I am saying is that one needs to set the aperture according to the flash instructions. Unless you are very good at judging distances before composing, this means that you *first* compose, *then* check what the lens thinks the distance is, *then* set the aperture on the lens as per the flash instructions (btw, the AF080C has such complicated instructions that they span 2 pages on the manual and of course don't feature on the flash). Which is exactly what Boj suggests in his site. This also has the problem that someone else tells you what the DOF should be. Perhaps William is right, I should be taking more pictures. However, on the usual occasion that I don't get the verticals right or the image is blurred because I can't hold the camera right or whatever, I get angry with myself. On the odd occasion that I got back a burnt-out, all white face of the daughter (and all the background near-black) I thought, "no, these flashes are junk". And, ken what[1], in that occasion the verticals were perfect and the daughter was doing the right thing, so all that pestering and waiting would not have gone amiss. That's all I am saying. Kostas [1] "Know something" in Scottish :-)
RE: Optio S4 - first impressions
I would hazard a guess that he was referring to daylight fill flash where older cameras had too slow a flash sync shutter speed to be as practical as some of the newer cameras. Perhaps I misunderstood? Len * There's no place like 127.0.0.1 > -Original Message- > From: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:17 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Kostas Kavoussanakis" > Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > > > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, William Robb wrote: > > > > > >From Bill's bag of tricks: > > > > > > 1) Use a Pentax dedicated auto flash. > > > 2) turn on flash and camera (in auto). > > > 3) set f/stop as per guide on flash. > > > 4) compose, focus and shoot. > > > > How do you do 3 before 4? Doesn't the f stop depend on distance? > > Flash output depends on distance. That is what auto flash > units do. They > measure the amount of light bouncing back from the subject > and quench the > flash when appropriate. > > William Robb >
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
- Original Message - From: "Kostas Kavoussanakis" Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, William Robb wrote: > > > >From Bill's bag of tricks: > > > > 1) Use a Pentax dedicated auto flash. > > 2) turn on flash and camera (in auto). > > 3) set f/stop as per guide on flash. > > 4) compose, focus and shoot. > > How do you do 3 before 4? Doesn't the f stop depend on distance? Flash output depends on distance. That is what auto flash units do. They measure the amount of light bouncing back from the subject and quench the flash when appropriate. William Robb
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, William Robb wrote: > >From Bill's bag of tricks: > > 1) Use a Pentax dedicated auto flash. > 2) turn on flash and camera (in auto). > 3) set f/stop as per guide on flash. > 4) compose, focus and shoot. How do you do 3 before 4? Doesn't the f stop depend on distance? Confused, Kostas
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
frank theriault wrote: > > Well, I'm a pessimist (see sig, below... ) > > But, seriously (and I haven't used any P&S except for tourists asking me to > take piccies with their cameras, standing in front of the CN Tower) these > cameras have limitations. They have to. > > I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm not saying they're garbage. But they > aren't great big SLR's that can do things in an instant, or that have manual > over-ride or any of that stuff. > > I guess there's a reason that PJ's and Papparazzi don't use P&S's. > > OTOH, it's hard to fit an MZ-S in your breast pocket - or any other pocket > for that matter. If I had the money, I might even buy one (after I buy a > nice medium format kit, and a *istD). True, as a few posts have mentioned, > the limitations can be minimized, but not eliminated. That's the trade-off > for small size and convenience, as you quite correctly point out, Boris. Frank, Frank, Frank... I thought you knew by now. It ain't how big it is, it's how. . . keith > > regards, > frank > >From: Boris Liberman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:41:24 +0200 > > > >Hi! > > > > > > >Shel, I think of it somewhat differently. It is like this, you decide > >that *now* is the moment, but since this camera is a sign of the > >future, it would actually photograph the future moment *after* you > >decided that you want shutter to trip and even pressed a button ... > > > >I am a positive man, normally, so I tend to think of a full half of a > >glass of water ... > > > > > > > >Boris
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
Well, I'm a pessimist (see sig, below... ) But, seriously (and I haven't used any P&S except for tourists asking me to take piccies with their cameras, standing in front of the CN Tower) these cameras have limitations. They have to. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm not saying they're garbage. But they aren't great big SLR's that can do things in an instant, or that have manual over-ride or any of that stuff. I guess there's a reason that PJ's and Papparazzi don't use P&S's. OTOH, it's hard to fit an MZ-S in your breast pocket - or any other pocket for that matter. If I had the money, I might even buy one (after I buy a nice medium format kit, and a *istD). True, as a few posts have mentioned, the limitations can be minimized, but not eliminated. That's the trade-off for small size and convenience, as you quite correctly point out, Boris. regards, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Boris Liberman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:41:24 +0200 Hi! Shel, I think of it somewhat differently. It is like this, you decide that *now* is the moment, but since this camera is a sign of the future, it would actually photograph the future moment *after* you decided that you want shutter to trip and even pressed a button ... I am a positive man, normally, so I tend to think of a full half of a glass of water ... Boris _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
Re[2]: Optio S4 - first impressions
If you will change that from digital camera to point and shoot camera I will agree with you. It is not a specific digital camera problem. It is a problem where the camera has automation (most notably auto focus) that is slow and doesn't provide very good feedback to the user. All AF point & shoots exhibit the same problem of missing the action. -- Best regards, Bruce Tuesday, December 2, 2003, 10:46:43 AM, you wrote: g> This is the bush the bear ran behind while I was focusing my digital camera. g> This is spot where the pretty girl was when I was focusing digital camera. g> This the toy the kid was playing with when I was focusing my digital camera. g> I think I will go out and take some landscape photos now... g> :) g> -- g> Bruce Dayton wrote: >> Boris, >> >> You, like many others, fail to realize that it takes time to focus and >> calculate the exposure. Better P&S cameras (Optio S included) have >> focus/exposure lock. All you have to do is press halfway down just >> like an SLR. It will achieve focus and exposure and hold it as long >> as you keep pressure on the shutter button. When the right moment >> arrives, finish pressing and the picture is taken almost immediately. >> No shutter lag. Simply a matter of learning how to master the camera. >> Virtually all P&S cameras have this problem. In fact all AF SLR's >> have this problem too, but they are a little faster. Even on the >> *istD, the general technique is to press halfway down, achieve focus >> lock and then press the rest of the way at the right moment. Try it >> on your own AF SLR and you'll see what I mean. >> >> HTH, >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> Tuesday, December 2, 2003, 8:20:47 AM, you wrote: >> >> BL> Hi! >> >> BL> No, I did not buy it, why would I? >> >> BL> Co-worker bought it and today I tried it while we had a little party >> BL> in the company. >> >> BL> This thing is way cool of course. It is very hard to operate and >> BL> several times I turned it off instead of taking the picture. But this >> BL> is not the main issue. >> >> BL> This darn thing has eternal shutter release lag. You click and then >> BL> some time in the future it takes the picture... I wonder what was the >> BL> situation with original Optio S... >> >> BL> Of course, the settings were - all maximal quality and all automatic. >> >> BL> >> >> BL> Boris >> >> >> >>
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
- Original Message - From: "Kostas Kavoussanakis" Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, William Robb wrote: > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Kostas Kavoussanakis" > > Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Boris Liberman wrote: > > > > > > > That's why I am falling deeper and deeper in love with my ME Super - > > > > everything is much smoother, much more natural, much faster... > > > > > > Until you need to use flash. > > > > Err, how does that change things? > > From Boj's site: > > > 1. turn flash on, > > 2. compose, > > 3. set X-sync shutter speed, > > 4. focus, > > 5. note subject distance, > > 6. find out F from the back of the flash (make sure to look in the > >appropriate film-speed column), > > 7. select F, > > 8. shoot. >From Bill's bag of tricks: 1) Use a Pentax dedicated auto flash. 2) turn on flash and camera (in auto). 3) set f/stop as per guide on flash. 4) compose, focus and shoot. Not quite as dumb as using a TTL dedicated, but only one more step, and there are no myriads of buttons on an ME-S. William Robb
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
- Original Message - From: "Kostas Kavoussanakis" Subject: Re: Optio S4 - first impressions > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Boris Liberman wrote: > > > That's why I am falling deeper and deeper in love with my ME Super - > > everything is much smoother, much more natural, much faster... > > Until you need to use flash. Err, how does that change things? William Robb
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
This is the bush the bear ran behind while I was focusing my digital camera. This is spot where the pretty girl was when I was focusing digital camera. This the toy the kid was playing with when I was focusing my digital camera. I think I will go out and take some landscape photos now... :) -- Bruce Dayton wrote: Boris, You, like many others, fail to realize that it takes time to focus and calculate the exposure. Better P&S cameras (Optio S included) have focus/exposure lock. All you have to do is press halfway down just like an SLR. It will achieve focus and exposure and hold it as long as you keep pressure on the shutter button. When the right moment arrives, finish pressing and the picture is taken almost immediately. No shutter lag. Simply a matter of learning how to master the camera. Virtually all P&S cameras have this problem. In fact all AF SLR's have this problem too, but they are a little faster. Even on the *istD, the general technique is to press halfway down, achieve focus lock and then press the rest of the way at the right moment. Try it on your own AF SLR and you'll see what I mean. HTH, Bruce Tuesday, December 2, 2003, 8:20:47 AM, you wrote: BL> Hi! BL> No, I did not buy it, why would I? BL> Co-worker bought it and today I tried it while we had a little party BL> in the company. BL> This thing is way cool of course. It is very hard to operate and BL> several times I turned it off instead of taking the picture. But this BL> is not the main issue. BL> This darn thing has eternal shutter release lag. You click and then BL> some time in the future it takes the picture... I wonder what was the BL> situation with original Optio S... BL> Of course, the settings were - all maximal quality and all automatic. BL> BL> Boris -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com "You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway."
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
- Original Message - From: "Bruce Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Actually the original Optio S (don't know about the S4) is one of the > few P&S cameras I have tried that gives any feedback about the focus > point. If you view the LCD while shooting, small green brackets > appear right at the focus point. Very handy for determining if you > actually focused on the right thing. I'm surprised that no mention is > made of it. Way more useful than my daughter's Optio 230 or Canon A10 > digitals. Pre-focus with the focus indicator on the Optio S make it > into a palatable camera for me. Not anywhere near an SLR, but way > better than run of the mill P&S. > The 330 gives the same green brackets as does the Canon A70 (I think it does a square). I'm pretty sure focus confirmation is pretty standard on digicams. Christian
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Boris Liberman wrote: > I tried what you said and it worked quite fine... I suppose the > difference between, say my MZ-6 and this Optio S4, is that in my case > I get feedback (viewfinder confirmation and a little beep) while > holding tiny Optio S4 in front of me in the midst of a partying crowd, > it is not easy to get the feedback, supposing there is some. Actually, you get the same beep and viewfinder confirmation with S4. Another way to reduce autofocus lag is to use spot/single focal point instead of the default wide focal points. After autofocus and preflash are done, the shutter release lag is only 0.01s, one of the fastest in this class. -- --Lawrence Kwan--SMS Info Service/Ringtone Convertor--PGP:finger/www-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.vex.net/~lawrence/ -Key ID:0x6D23F3C4--
Re: Re[2]: Optio S4 - first impressions
Hi! Bruce, I've noticed focus confirmation... But I did not quite got accustomed to it. After all, I was just asked to take few shots... It is not mine. I have to agree that there is a comforting feeling using a camera that you feel in complete control of that responds to your directions when and how you want it to. One of the important aspects to me of the automated cameras is how comfortable they are to use when all the little automations are turned off. Amazingly enough ZX-L seems like an automaton that almost never gets in my way. It is almost transparent... Boris P.S. Bruce, you might want to consider to configure your mail client so that it wouldn't count number of replies you made to each message...
Re[2]: Optio S4 - first impressions
Actually the original Optio S (don't know about the S4) is one of the few P&S cameras I have tried that gives any feedback about the focus point. If you view the LCD while shooting, small green brackets appear right at the focus point. Very handy for determining if you actually focused on the right thing. I'm surprised that no mention is made of it. Way more useful than my daughter's Optio 230 or Canon A10 digitals. Pre-focus with the focus indicator on the Optio S make it into a palatable camera for me. Not anywhere near an SLR, but way better than run of the mill P&S. I have to agree that there is a comforting feeling using a camera that you feel in complete control of that responds to your directions when and how you want it to. One of the important aspects to me of the automated cameras is how comfortable they are to use when all the little automations are turned off. -- Best regards, Bruce Tuesday, December 2, 2003, 9:00:59 AM, you wrote: BL> Bruce, BL> I tried what you said and it worked quite fine... I suppose the BL> difference between, say my MZ-6 and this Optio S4, is that in my case BL> I get feedback (viewfinder confirmation and a little beep) while BL> holding tiny Optio S4 in front of me in the midst of a partying crowd, BL> it is not easy to get the feedback, supposing there is some. BL> That's why I am falling deeper and deeper in love with my ME Super - BL> everything is much smoother, much more natural, much faster... BL> Thanks! BL> Boris
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:11:13 + (GMT) Kostas Kavoussanakis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Boris Liberman wrote: That's why I am falling deeper and deeper in love with my ME Super - everything is much smoother, much more natural, much faster... Until you need to use flash. Kostas :-) Be reminded, that I also have ZX-L (MZ-6). One of the purposes - flash photography... Boris
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Boris Liberman wrote: > That's why I am falling deeper and deeper in love with my ME Super - > everything is much smoother, much more natural, much faster... Until you need to use flash. Kostas :-)
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
Bruce, I tried what you said and it worked quite fine... I suppose the difference between, say my MZ-6 and this Optio S4, is that in my case I get feedback (viewfinder confirmation and a little beep) while holding tiny Optio S4 in front of me in the midst of a partying crowd, it is not easy to get the feedback, supposing there is some. That's why I am falling deeper and deeper in love with my ME Super - everything is much smoother, much more natural, much faster... Thanks! Boris
Re: Optio S4 - first impressions
Boris, You, like many others, fail to realize that it takes time to focus and calculate the exposure. Better P&S cameras (Optio S included) have focus/exposure lock. All you have to do is press halfway down just like an SLR. It will achieve focus and exposure and hold it as long as you keep pressure on the shutter button. When the right moment arrives, finish pressing and the picture is taken almost immediately. No shutter lag. Simply a matter of learning how to master the camera. Virtually all P&S cameras have this problem. In fact all AF SLR's have this problem too, but they are a little faster. Even on the *istD, the general technique is to press halfway down, achieve focus lock and then press the rest of the way at the right moment. Try it on your own AF SLR and you'll see what I mean. HTH, Bruce Tuesday, December 2, 2003, 8:20:47 AM, you wrote: BL> Hi! BL> No, I did not buy it, why would I? BL> Co-worker bought it and today I tried it while we had a little party BL> in the company. BL> This thing is way cool of course. It is very hard to operate and BL> several times I turned it off instead of taking the picture. But this BL> is not the main issue. BL> This darn thing has eternal shutter release lag. You click and then BL> some time in the future it takes the picture... I wonder what was the BL> situation with original Optio S... BL> Of course, the settings were - all maximal quality and all automatic. BL> BL> Boris
Optio S4 - first impressions
Hi! No, I did not buy it, why would I? Co-worker bought it and today I tried it while we had a little party in the company. This thing is way cool of course. It is very hard to operate and several times I turned it off instead of taking the picture. But this is not the main issue. This darn thing has eternal shutter release lag. You click and then some time in the future it takes the picture... I wonder what was the situation with original Optio S... Of course, the settings were - all maximal quality and all automatic. Boris
