Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Brad Dobo wrote: > Why? The cheapest CF cards I could find cost $75 for 64mb. We've been selling SanDisk ones for $68 CAN for months now and I'm sure we're not the cheapest place around. But even so, it's cheap compared to the camera. If you're already spending hundreds of dollars for a digital camera, an extra $70 for film for life is a steal. > I'm not made of money, and for certain neither are most P&Sers who may > switch to digital (forget DSLR). Film cassettes get tossed, as do the > negs with many P&Sers but *most* (not really anyone here) people won't > pay more than $2-3 for a another roll of film to pop in. I'm sorta > playing Devil's Advocate here. Yes, sure in the long run it works out, > but with so many other things, most don't want the more expensive long > run savings option. Those type of people don't tend to buy digital cameras in the first place. Anyone who is willing to spend $700 for a good digital p&s when they could spend under $200 for its film-based equivalent is obviously willing to pay a greater initial cost and reap the benefits later. Sure, film may only cost $2 or $3, but once you add processing into it you're looking at a fair bit more money. Run 6 or 7 rolls of film through your camera and there's the price of the card already. People who don't see the logic of that don't usually decide to shell out the big bucks for digital, in my experience. Not touching the rest of your points, as I've already beat them to death in the past. :) chris
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
At 03:13 AM 10/12/2002 -0400, Brad wrote: >Ok, just a couple of random thoughts, this group has already beaten this >thread to death I bet in the past, but it's new to me. Storage length. >Vulnerablity. Cost. I cannot remember the number but our instructor quoted >something like it's many 1000s of percent greater for a hard drive to fail >(and cannot retrieve data) than a house fire to occur that would say burn >your negs, slides, and prints. That's crap if you are a serious pro digital >photographer. Guess what just happened to me. Electricity supply to Canada's high-tech capital is notoriously flaky. Last Friday evening (4th) just after midnight, modem screams as the power goes off, glitches back on and dies. Unbeknowns to me, computer running on a 110-230v step-up transformer receives fatal overdose. (it wasn't switched on). PC power supply is taken out. That's not all. DVD player and both hard disks, master AND backup are toast. Digital photos from a recent trip all gone never to be recovered. So there we are. If anyone has the brilliant idea to backup to a second hard disk - don't do it. It'll only end in tears. Wendy
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
Hell I've got that now. (Based on some of the art I've seen, and the reviews it gets this has posibilities). At 09:56 AM 10/13/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Better yet -- as undeveloped B&W rolls in canisters... > >Mishka > >- Original Message - >From: "Bob Rapp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:19 AM >Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > > > > Imagine a digital gallery where the photographers works are displayed as a > > collection of CD-RW/DVD-RW discs. Now that is style! Marked 1 of 500 - > > individually signed by the photographer! > > > > Not on subject, but could not resist. > > > > Bob > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Otis Wright, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > And of course, removable disks sitting on the shelf never have any > > > problems?? > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
Better yet -- as undeveloped B&W rolls in canisters... Mishka - Original Message - From: "Bob Rapp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > Imagine a digital gallery where the photographers works are displayed as a > collection of CD-RW/DVD-RW discs. Now that is style! Marked 1 of 500 - > individually signed by the photographer! > > Not on subject, but could not resist. > > Bob > > - Original Message - > From: "Otis Wright, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > And of course, removable disks sitting on the shelf never have any > > problems?? > > > > > >
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
> And of course, removable disks sitting on the shelf never have any > problems?? Generally no, as they have not been 'burned' or dyes altered yet. > My experience is that all of these approaches work, if you understand the medium > and work with it accordingly. > > My experience around here is that there is a relatively small amount of critical > data on the hard drives that is easily and quickly backed up to CDs (which we > read verify in addition to the verify after write process). Four times a year > the complete drives are backed up to tape. Once every year or so the computers > are taken down, cleared and reloaded with the recovery disks and then updated to > clear the machine of gremlins that seem to creep in no matter what you do. No > very sophisticated, but it seems to get the job done. > > Otis > > Brad Dobo wrote: > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Peter Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 1:26 AM > > Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > > > > > CD-R's are very easy to damage either physically or during a write > > > operation. Lost a > > > lot data on a cd doing an incremental backup. One bad file write lead to > > > an un-readable > > > un-recoverable CD. > > > > Just to add a technical note to this. Peter is exactly correct about the > > CD-R. However, I would like to add that a CD-RW is potentially worse, and > > even with a successful write and proper storage, a CD-RW can actually become > > unstable, or in other words, 'go bad'. > > > > Brad Dobo >
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
Surge protectors are fine, I use them, but more like additional power outlets. Do you know why these companies have insurance or guarantees of various sums? Because they rarely happen. Any *real* power surge, be it a power company failure or due to a lightning strike, do you know what happens? They simply just jump the surge barrier. In that case, you are in trouble, but there is nothing you can do against it besides unplugging every component after use. The upside? This rarely happens. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:18 PM Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > Wendy, > > Get that surge protector into use. Buy two, they are cheap! > > Back when I had a computer with Pentium I chip, I saw a flash outside the > basement window and the power went out. An underground transformer across > the street had blown, but not before spiking the voltage. When the power > came back up, the computer was fine (protected by the surge protector), but > the TV in the bedroom wasn't. $160 later, we had the appropriate chips in > the TV replaced. It has a surge protector now too! > > I like what John Coyle said about the chips in the hard drives or the > controllers. The disc platters themselves are magnetic metal and probably > not capable of being damaged by a power surge. The wee electronic chips are > another matter. Short of buying US Department of Defense, hardened against > Electromagnetic Pulses chips, this gear needs surge protection. > > Regards, Bob S. >
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
Brad, Reread my message again. I have experienced a power surge which damaged my TV. I don't live in the boonies or a 3rd world country, but a nice suburb of Chicago. I paid $160 to have the TV fixed, and nothing for the computer because of the surge protector. We were running both of these devices at the time of the spike. If you are experiencing uninterrupted electric service you are fortunate. I feel the electric service has grown much less reliable in the past 50 years. In the past, we had surplus power capacity. The only outage we saw in my childhood was from storms taking power lines down or lightening strikes on pole mounted transformers. Today we experience 3-4 brownouts per summer when the temperatures go up and air conditioning needs drain the electric supply. This was unheard of in the past. Regards, Bob S. In a message dated 10/13/02 6:32:13 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Surge protectors are fine, I use them, but more like additional power outlets. Do you know why these companies have insurance or guarantees of various sums? Because they rarely happen. Any *real* power surge, be it a power company failure or due to a lightning strike, do you know what happens? They simply just jump the surge barrier. In that case, you are in trouble, but there is nothing you can do against it besides unplugging every component after use. The upside? This rarely happens. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:18 PM Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > Wendy, > > Get that surge protector into use. Buy two, they are cheap! > > Back when I had a computer with Pentium I chip, I saw a flash outside the > basement window and the power went out. An underground transformer across > the street had blown, but not before spiking the voltage. When the power > came back up, the computer was fine (protected by the surge protector), but > the TV in the bedroom wasn't. $160 later, we had the appropriate chips in > the TV replaced. It has a surge protector now too! > > I like what John Coyle said about the chips in the hard drives or the > controllers. The disc platters themselves are magnetic metal and probably > not capable of being damaged by a power surge. The wee electronic chips are > another matter. Short of buying US Department of Defense, hardened against > Electromagnetic Pulses chips, this gear needs surge protection. > > Regards, Bob S. > >>
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
Bob, I don't need to re-read your message again, I got it all the first time. I know of no one in my personal experience that I call my life, that has every had such problems. I work and hang out with guys who are far more advanced than me that think and see the same thing. You are one of the few unfortunate cases of this happening. It's sort of like Norton Internet Security for a Windows box. Absolutely useless software. It's a huge market scam in fact. As those in the know (not those that sell) Keep it updated from Microsoft and scan regularly with up to day virus scanners and you have no need to worry about your Windows Box because they really are not that exploitable. They are if you don't have a good virus scanner, or do and don't use it, or have never updated your OS. In my experience only idiots and the ignorant get actually affected by a virus. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:46 PM Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > Brad, > > Reread my message again. > I have experienced a power surge which damaged my TV. > I don't live in the boonies or a 3rd world country, but a nice suburb of > Chicago. > I paid $160 to have the TV fixed, and > nothing for the computer because of the surge protector. > We were running both of these devices at the time of the spike. > > If you are experiencing uninterrupted electric service you are fortunate. > I feel the electric service has grown much less reliable in the past 50 years. > In the past, we had surplus power capacity. The only outage we saw in my > childhood was from storms taking power lines down or lightening strikes on > pole mounted transformers. Today we experience 3-4 brownouts per summer when > the temperatures go up and air conditioning needs drain the electric supply. > This was unheard of in the past. > > Regards, Bob S. > > In a message dated 10/13/02 6:32:13 PM Central Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << Surge protectors are fine, I use them, but more like additional power > outlets. Do you know why these companies have insurance or guarantees of > various sums? Because they rarely happen. Any *real* power surge, be it a > power company failure or due to a lightning strike, do you know what > happens? They simply just jump the surge barrier. In that case, you are in > trouble, but there is nothing you can do against it besides unplugging every > component after use. The upside? This rarely happens. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > > > > Wendy, > > > > Get that surge protector into use. Buy two, they are cheap! > > > > Back when I had a computer with Pentium I chip, I saw a flash outside the > > basement window and the power went out. An underground transformer across > > the street had blown, but not before spiking the voltage. When the power > > came back up, the computer was fine (protected by the surge protector), > but > > the TV in the bedroom wasn't. $160 later, we had the appropriate chips in > > the TV replaced. It has a surge protector now too! > > > > I like what John Coyle said about the chips in the hard drives or the > > controllers. The disc platters themselves are magnetic metal and probably > > not capable of being damaged by a power surge. The wee electronic chips > are > > another matter. Short of buying US Department of Defense, hardened > against > > Electromagnetic Pulses chips, this gear needs surge protection. > > > > Regards, Bob S. > > >> >
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
They can when the head unit bounces and hits the platter when the surge cause the tip to jump higher than normal - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:18 AM Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) The disc platters themselves are magnetic metal and probably not capable of being damaged by a power surge.
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
Back when I was in IT, surge arresters were a dime a dozen and seldom failed to protect a computer in a lightning strike. Back then, I used constant-voltage-transformers with input MOVs. The primary protection came from the transformer as it provided isolation and automatically bucked spikes. It also provided brownout protection. For UPS supplies, get one with a CVT or add a CVT to one. All but the most expensive supplies use silicon for conditioning and they will fail with a hit although, they will protect the computer. This experience came from the lightening ravaged mountains in Colorado. Bob
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
And sometimes it appears that signal noise created by the power aberrations activates the write sequence in the controller just long enough to overwrite critical data. See this a lot on platters we have analyzed for recovery. Especially where there are multiple on off cycles. Otis Feroze Kistan wrote: > They can when the head unit bounces and hits the platter when the surge > cause the tip to jump higher than normal > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:18 AM > Subject: Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs) > > The disc platters themselves are magnetic metal and probably > not capable of being damaged by a power surge.
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs)
On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Brad Dobo wrote: > happens? They simply just jump the surge barrier. In that case, you are in > trouble, but there is nothing you can do against it besides unplugging every > component after use. The upside? This rarely happens. When in doubt, buy a line conditioner, which is not the same as a surge protector or even a UPS.
Re: A must read! (WAS Re: Digital-only labs), Anton
The computer trade says: 'Data doesn't exist unless it exists in two separate locations.' I'm into film but I subsequently use computers for my images, not to mention my music making and production, finances, work etc. etc. I have multiple hard disks and those disks are partitioned but that doesn't really count as separate locations. Back-up to CD or whatever and store off-site is my suggestion. If you do a lot of work, do this every week. Pain in the neck but if you're serious there's no other way. Two years ago I switched my machine on and went to brew my coffee. When I came back I was greeted with a black screen saying 'invalid system disk'. We've all seen that before? Floppy left in the drive... err no! panicking phone calls ensued and the swapping of hard disks between machines (it's great to have a spare machine on these occasions) revealed that quite simply my 3 month old IBM (class product) hard disk had died. The other disk and the rest of the machine was okay (so no spikes etc.) I had a two week old back-up of my data and an image of C: so I bought a new disk and was up and running in half and hour but the loss of two weeks data was a pain. Hard disks are mechanical spinning devices and they will fail. Fact! The questions is when, the answer is the next second or the next ten years or anywhere in between. Back-up and be happy. Anton ___ Freeserve AnyTime, only £13.99 per month with one month's FREE trial! For more information visit http://www.freeserve.com/time/ or call free on 0800 970 8890
