Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Mark Roberts]

Having pondered this issue for a few days, here's my latest take on
it: Reuters doesn't really care much if their photographers shoot raw
or JPEG. Moreover, they're not even going to check... until there's an
accusation of manipulation. That way, if there ever *is* an accusation
they won't need to prove or even debate the highly contentious issues
of how much manipulation was done and how much is acceptable. They'll
just have to show it's not an in-camera JPEG and then dismiss the
photographer. 
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[John]

On 11/20/2015 12:51 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

Having pondered this issue for a few days, here's my latest take on
it: Reuters doesn't really care much if their photographers shoot raw
or JPEG. Moreover, they're not even going to check... until there's an
accusation of manipulation. That way, if there ever *is* an accusation
they won't need to prove or even debate the highly contentious issues
of how much manipulation was done and how much is acceptable. They'll
just have to show it's not an in-camera JPEG and then dismiss the
photographer.




Could be their front office has reason to doubt the ability of their
photo editors to spot manipulated images & they think that accepting
only "in camera" JPEGs will reduce the risk they'll get burned again.

It shouldn't be that big a deal. I'm pretty sure the K-3 is not the only
dual-card camera with the capability to record RAW on one card
simultaneously with JPEG on the other.


--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Brian Walters]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015, at 09:27 AM, Mark Roberts wrote:
> Mark Roberts wrote:
> 
> I just thought of an even easier way. Set the camera to shoot
> Raw+JPEG. Process the raw file any way you want and export it; open
> the native JPEG and the processed file in Photoshop; paste the
> processed image onto the native JPEG as a new Layer; flatten, save and
> you're done. (The native JPEG will retain all its original metadata,
> including EXIF.)


The only issue there (I think) is that the exif will record Photoshop in
the Software tag.  This might raise some suspicions, although I suppose
an unscrupulous journo could edit that out.



Cheers

Brian

++
Brian Walters
Western Sydney Australia
http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/

--

-- 
http://www.fastmail.com - Access your email from home and the web


-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Steve Cottrell]

On 19/11/15, ann sanfedele, discombobulated, unleashed:

>UM , Mark  -- I was making a little jokey  -  not like you to miss 'em
>have some more coffee :-)  trust me I knew exactly what you meant!

Blahdy new yawkas

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__Broadcast, Corporate,
||  (O)  |Web Video Production
--
_



-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Mark Roberts]

ann sanfedele wrote:

>On 11/18/2015 3:21 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:
>> "Steve Cottrell"  wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting!
>>>
>>> >> photos/>
>> This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
>> people, if you know what I mean.
>>
>Gee no I don't, please explain

I mean the decision was made by people who understand nothing about
photography, the technicalities of digital image editing or the
effects this decision is going to have in the real world.

 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Daniel J. Matyola]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 2:31 AM, P.J. Alling  wrote:
> B Film the standard for Newspaper work until sometime in the 80's was the
> raw of it's day.

IIRC, some publishers, including I believe Nat Geo, would take only
transparencies.  Doesn't every publisher have the right to set the
standards for submission?  What is wrong with that?


Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[P.J. Alling]

On 11/19/2015 9:57 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 2:31 AM, P.J. Alling  wrote:

B Film the standard for Newspaper work until sometime in the 80's was the
raw of it's day.

IIRC, some publishers, including I believe Nat Geo, would take only
transparencies.  Doesn't every publisher have the right to set the
standards for submission?  What is wrong with that?


Sure they can, and there's not a problem with that.  Reuters can demand 
PNGs for all I care.  However, to me at least, it's obvious that they're 
demanding only in Cameras Jpegs because they can't trust reportorial 
staff, (actually they're probably all freelancers), not to lie, and 
can't trust their editorial staff to notice, and the decision was made 
by someone who has no understanding of the technology.   Reuters has 
been burned by dishonest photographers, and, I'm sure, reporters, in the 
recent past, and they're looking for a technological fix, which doesn't 
exist.





Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola




--
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve 
immortality through not dying.
-- Woody Allen


--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Mark Roberts]

Brian Walters wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 19, 2015, at 09:27 AM, Mark Roberts wrote:
>> Mark Roberts wrote:
>> 
>> I just thought of an even easier way. Set the camera to shoot
>> Raw+JPEG. Process the raw file any way you want and export it; open
>> the native JPEG and the processed file in Photoshop; paste the
>> processed image onto the native JPEG as a new Layer; flatten, save and
>> you're done. (The native JPEG will retain all its original metadata,
>> including EXIF.)
>
>The only issue there (I think) is that the exif will record Photoshop in
>the Software tag.  This might raise some suspicions, although I suppose
>an unscrupulous journo could edit that out.

It could easily be edited out with an EXIF editor, but the new Reuters
rules specifically allow "minimal processing (cropping, correcting
levels, etc)", which would presumably be done in Photoshop, there's no
real reason to do so.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[ann sanfedele]

On 11/19/2015 2:31 AM, P.J. Alling wrote:
B Film the standard for Newspaper work until sometime in the 80's 
was the raw of it's day.  Here's the thing, either you trust your 
trained witnesses, (reporters and photographers), or you fire them and 
get someone you can trust.

MARK!

It wouldn't be so bad if the fakes were clever and hard to spot, but 
most were obvious fakes.  That speaks almost as poorly for the 
intelligence of the editorial staff as it does for the honesty of the 
reporting staff.  As has been pointed out there are a number of ways to 
spoof the EXIF data in a jpeg file, and a talented Photoshop user can 
produce nearly undetectable revisions.  I read in the comments of that 
article that some Nikon Cameras embed a checksum in each picture file, 
in an attempt to thwart modifications, but hell once you know how any 
number id generated, it's just as easy to replace that as well.


On 11/19/2015 12:00 AM, ann sanfedele wrote:

funny, I thought you shot film a while back :-)

On 11/18/2015 11:50 PM, knarf wrote:
I've never shot anything other than a jpeg in my life. Nice to know 
I've still got a chance with Reuters.


Cheers,

frank

On November 18, 2015 11:42:40 PM EST, ann sanfedele 
 wrote:

Gee no I don't, please explain
a

On 11/18/2015 3:21 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

"Steve Cottrell"  wrote:


Interesting!




This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
people, if you know what I mean.










--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[ann sanfedele]

UM , Mark  -- I was making a little jokey  -  not like you to miss 'em
have some more coffee :-)  trust me I knew exactly what you meant!

ann

On 11/19/2015 8:18 AM, Mark Roberts wrote:

ann sanfedele wrote:
On 11/18/2015 3:21 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

:-)
This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
people, if you know what I mean.


Gee no I don't, please explain

I mean the decision was made by people who understand nothing about
photography, the technicalities of digital image editing or the
effects this decision is going to have in the real world.

  



--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[P.J. Alling]

Once again proving to me that Reuters is like all current news 
organizations run on auto pilot by idiots.


On 11/18/2015 2:47 PM, Steve Cottrell wrote:

Interesting!






--
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve 
immortality through not dying.
-- Woody Allen


--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Bulent Celasun]

I am surprised but this may only show my ignorance about the subject.

I think I can agree with their reasoning.

Bulent
-
http://patoloji.gen.tr
http://celasun.wordpress.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bc_the_path/
http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2226822
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/bulentcelasun


2015-11-18 21:47 GMT+02:00 Steve Cottrell :
> Interesting!
>
>  photos/>
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__Broadcast, Corporate,
> ||  (O)  |Web Video Production
> --
> _
>
>
>
> --
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
> the directions.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Mark Roberts]

"Steve Cottrell"  wrote:

>Interesting!
>
>photos/>

This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
people, if you know what I mean.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Larry Colen]

P.J. Alling wrote:

Once again proving to me that Reuters is like all current news
organizations run on auto pilot by idiots.


It does provide a certain amount of verisimilitude to the files. It 
would probably take someone who know what they were doing the better 
part of a day to write a program that could fake an in camera jpeg from 
a raw file.


It give me an idea for an interesting feature for a digital camera. 
Each camera is programmed with a private/public key pair, where the 
private key is randomly generated, and not readable.  Every raw file is 
signed with the private key with the signature and public key stored in 
the exif.  It might also be possible to steganographicly watermark the 
raw file with the digital signature.


Any photo submitted must also include the signed raw file.

Spoofing this would at least require a non-trivial amount of processing.




On 11/18/2015 2:47 PM, Steve Cottrell wrote:

Interesting!








--
Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com (postbox on min4est)

--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Mark Roberts]

Larry Colen wrote:

>
>
>P.J. Alling wrote:
>> Once again proving to me that Reuters is like all current news
>> organizations run on auto pilot by idiots.
>
>It does provide a certain amount of verisimilitude to the files. It 
>would probably take someone who know what they were doing the better 
>part of a day to write a program that could fake an in camera jpeg from 
>a raw file.

Why not just generate the JPEG in Lightroom and hack the EXIF data?
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Mark Roberts]

Mark Roberts wrote:

>Larry Colen wrote:
>
>>P.J. Alling wrote:
>>> Once again proving to me that Reuters is like all current news
>>> organizations run on auto pilot by idiots.
>>
>>It does provide a certain amount of verisimilitude to the files. It 
>>would probably take someone who know what they were doing the better 
>>part of a day to write a program that could fake an in camera jpeg from 
>>a raw file.
>
>Why not just generate the JPEG in Lightroom and hack the EXIF data?

I just thought of an even easier way. Set the camera to shoot
Raw+JPEG. Process the raw file any way you want and export it; open
the native JPEG and the processed file in Photoshop; paste the
processed image onto the native JPEG as a new Layer; flatten, save and
you're done. (The native JPEG will retain all its original metadata,
including EXIF.)
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Darren Addy]

I'm telling Reuters on you, Mark.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Mark Roberts
 wrote:
> Mark Roberts wrote:
>
>>Larry Colen wrote:
>>
>>>P.J. Alling wrote:
 Once again proving to me that Reuters is like all current news
 organizations run on auto pilot by idiots.
>>>
>>>It does provide a certain amount of verisimilitude to the files. It
>>>would probably take someone who know what they were doing the better
>>>part of a day to write a program that could fake an in camera jpeg from
>>>a raw file.
>>
>>Why not just generate the JPEG in Lightroom and hack the EXIF data?
>
> I just thought of an even easier way. Set the camera to shoot
> Raw+JPEG. Process the raw file any way you want and export it; open
> the native JPEG and the processed file in Photoshop; paste the
> processed image onto the native JPEG as a new Layer; flatten, save and
> you're done. (The native JPEG will retain all its original metadata,
> including EXIF.)
>
> --
> Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
> www.robertstech.com
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
> the directions.



-- 
Life is too short to put up with bad bokeh.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Darren Addy]

This just in: Reuters will only accept 4x5 film negatives.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Darren Addy  wrote:
> I'm telling Reuters on you, Mark.
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Mark Roberts
>  wrote:
>> Mark Roberts wrote:
>>
>>>Larry Colen wrote:
>>>
P.J. Alling wrote:
> Once again proving to me that Reuters is like all current news
> organizations run on auto pilot by idiots.

It does provide a certain amount of verisimilitude to the files. It
would probably take someone who know what they were doing the better
part of a day to write a program that could fake an in camera jpeg from
a raw file.
>>>
>>>Why not just generate the JPEG in Lightroom and hack the EXIF data?
>>
>> I just thought of an even easier way. Set the camera to shoot
>> Raw+JPEG. Process the raw file any way you want and export it; open
>> the native JPEG and the processed file in Photoshop; paste the
>> processed image onto the native JPEG as a new Layer; flatten, save and
>> you're done. (The native JPEG will retain all its original metadata,
>> including EXIF.)
>>
>> --
>> Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
>> www.robertstech.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> PDML@pdml.net
>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>> follow the directions.
>
>
>
> --
> Life is too short to put up with bad bokeh.



-- 
Life is too short to put up with bad bokeh.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[Michael Beacom]

Illuminated by flash powder.

Sent from my iPad
Mike

> On Nov 18, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Darren Addy  wrote:
> 
> This just in: Reuters will only accept 4x5 film negatives.
> 
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Darren Addy  wrote:
>> I'm telling Reuters on you, Mark.
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Mark Roberts
>>  wrote:
>>> Mark Roberts wrote:
>>> 
 Larry Colen wrote:
 
> P.J. Alling wrote:
>> Once again proving to me that Reuters is like all current news
>> organizations run on auto pilot by idiots.
> 
> It does provide a certain amount of verisimilitude to the files. It
> would probably take someone who know what they were doing the better
> part of a day to write a program that could fake an in camera jpeg from
> a raw file.
 
 Why not just generate the JPEG in Lightroom and hack the EXIF data?
>>> 
>>> I just thought of an even easier way. Set the camera to shoot
>>> Raw+JPEG. Process the raw file any way you want and export it; open
>>> the native JPEG and the processed file in Photoshop; paste the
>>> processed image onto the native JPEG as a new Layer; flatten, save and
>>> you're done. (The native JPEG will retain all its original metadata,
>>> including EXIF.)
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
>>> www.robertstech.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> PDML@pdml.net
>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>>> follow the directions.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Life is too short to put up with bad bokeh.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Life is too short to put up with bad bokeh.
> 
> -- 
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
> the directions.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[ann sanfedele]

Gee no I don't, please explain
a

On 11/18/2015 3:21 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

"Steve Cottrell"  wrote:


Interesting!



This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
people, if you know what I mean.




--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[knarf]

I've never shot anything other than a jpeg in my life. Nice to know I've still 
got a chance with Reuters. 

Cheers,

frank

On November 18, 2015 11:42:40 PM EST, ann sanfedele  wrote:
>Gee no I don't, please explain
>a
>
>On 11/18/2015 3:21 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:
>> "Steve Cottrell"  wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting!
>>>
>>>
>>> photos/>
>> This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
>> people, if you know what I mean.
>>

-- 

"Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -- Henri Cartier-Bresson

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[ann sanfedele]

funny, I thought you shot film a while back :-)

On 11/18/2015 11:50 PM, knarf wrote:

I've never shot anything other than a jpeg in my life. Nice to know I've still 
got a chance with Reuters.

Cheers,

frank

On November 18, 2015 11:42:40 PM EST, ann sanfedele  wrote:

Gee no I don't, please explain
a

On 11/18/2015 3:21 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

"Steve Cottrell"  wrote:


Interesting!





This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
people, if you know what I mean.




--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Reuters Bans RAW

[P.J. Alling]

B Film the standard for Newspaper work until sometime in the 80's was 
the raw of it's day.  Here's the thing, either you trust your trained 
witnesses, (reporters and photographers), or you fire them and get 
someone you can trust. It wouldn't be so bad if the fakes were clever 
and hard to spot, but most were obvious fakes.  That speaks almost as 
poorly for the intelligence of the editorial staff as it does for the 
honesty of the reporting staff.  As has been pointed out there are a 
number of ways to spoof the EXIF data in a jpeg file, and a talented 
Photoshop user can produce nearly undetectable revisions.  I read in the 
comments of that article that some Nikon Cameras embed a checksum in 
each picture file, in an attempt to thwart modifications, but hell once 
you know how any number id generated, it's just as easy to replace that 
as well.


On 11/19/2015 12:00 AM, ann sanfedele wrote:

funny, I thought you shot film a while back :-)

On 11/18/2015 11:50 PM, knarf wrote:
I've never shot anything other than a jpeg in my life. Nice to know 
I've still got a chance with Reuters.


Cheers,

frank

On November 18, 2015 11:42:40 PM EST, ann sanfedele 
 wrote:

Gee no I don't, please explain
a

On 11/18/2015 3:21 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

"Steve Cottrell"  wrote:


Interesting!





This strikes me as a decision that was made by upper management
people, if you know what I mean.







--
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve 
immortality through not dying.
-- Woody Allen


--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.