Moiré (was: Re: Show in Japan)
Rob, So, what do you think of Leica's missing anti-alias filter, replaced by anti-moire processing? Dario - Original Message - From: Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:03 AM Subject: Re: Re: Show in Japan On 18/10/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aha...yes I see some colour lines there, but you really have to be looking right up close to spot it. I can't see that bothering me. It may be quite annoying to me, I shoot do shoot fabrics under controlled lighting,. It's an indication that the selected AA filter isn't doing what it's supposed to do. The problem is near impossible to remedy in post processing as it's an optical effect therefore can't be readily distinguished from wanted information. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Show in Japan
Hi Joe,
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:31:02 -0700, Joseph Tainter wrote:
http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg
This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site
-
When I look at this image at a scale that fills the browser window, or
fills the screen in PS, I see moire all over the area of the blouse
outside of the bib (whatever it's called). But when I enlarge the
image the moire goes away. So I assume it is just an effect of the monitor.
Yes, at the nomal ('fit screen') size there is moire caused by
the monitor or simple resizing algorithm in the browser.
(this is luminance moire, all channels)
However, at 1:1 (100%) size that moire is gone, but there is
a very subtle COLOR moire left (not luninance), it shows
best between her hair and the right arm ...
Regards, JvW
--
Jan van Wijk; http://www.dfsee.com/gallery
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Re: Moiré (was: Re: Show in Japan)
On 18/10/06, Dario Bonazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob, So, what do you think of Leica's missing anti-alias filter, replaced by anti-moire processing? I don't. Is is current or proposed? -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Moiré (was: Re: Show in Japan)
Current on both the Digital Modul R and the M8. Dario - Original Message - From: Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:22 AM Subject: Re: Moiré (was: Re: Show in Japan) On 18/10/06, Dario Bonazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob, So, what do you think of Leica's missing anti-alias filter, replaced by anti-moire processing? I don't. Is is current or proposed? -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
I doubt that Pentax has regressed. BTW, I think Doug was being facetious. It's probably not time to get nostalgic about the *istD. On Oct 17, 2006, at 9:42 PM, Digital Image Studio wrote: On 18/10/06, Doug Brewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, that's it. The camera is useless. That was one great thing about the *ist D, the AA filter seemed very well matched to the sensor which meant that images sharpened well and rarely suffered aliasing problems, though it didn't measure up as well regarding resolution as some of the other cameras built around the same sensor. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Re: Show in Japan
I cannot see genuine moiré, patterns there, no matter how hard I look! Moiré interference does exist of course, but isn't it generally only apparent when looking at an electronic presentation of an image, such as used to be very evident on TV when some particular patterns of shirt were worn? IMO, it would hardly seem to be an issue if you're going to a printed output anyway. John Coyle Brisbane, Australia - Original Message - From: Ken Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: Re: Re: Show in Japan On 10/17/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Moire is the odd patterns you sometimes see in fine (high frequency) detail in digital shots or scans. -Adam Actually, I just accidentally found the thread in Japan wherein folks are talking about the moire, taking an examplke of Pnteax's recent sample. http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site. If you look really close at the area of her right shoulder between her arm and hair, you might be able to see some colour moire. It is hard to see but it's there. The fabric is supposed to be pure white but has a very fine thread pattern. They all say this is moire, and are not all concerned about it. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
From one of Ken's reports: Pentax explanation on the floor said they were not forcing the removal of the nosie, colour noise or colour moire. Instead, they are going by the extremely finer gradation to render very natural images. They further said that if anyone would be bothered by the colour moire etc, it can be easily removed by post processing. I have been thinking this over the past couple of days. Moire? I haven't seen moire raised previously as an issue in the K10D. Pentax seems to be saying: Noise? Moire? Remove them yourselves. For the noise, that is probably okay. I don't want high ISO K10D images to look soft like the D80 ones do. But how does one remove moire? And why should it be an issue in the camera? (Why did Pentax even bring it up?) Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On Oct 17, 2006, at 5:19 PM, Joseph Tainter wrote: From one of Ken's reports: But how does one remove moire? I think there is a tutorial, maybe even a script to remove moire patterns on Russell Brown's site. A Google search should bring up more references. And why should it be an issue in the camera? I've never experienced the problem personally, but I have seen some examples of serious moire patterns in digital images as a result of the weave of some fabrics. Lots of things have to come together just right (well, really ... just wrong) in order for it to be a problem ... among them, I think, orientation of the fabric to the pixel array, magnification of the fabric, lighting and probably others. (Why did Pentax even bring it up?) Just a little pre-emptive CYA? But I don't know why it would be any more an issue with this camera than with any other digital camera. Tom Lesser Frederick MD -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/17/06 5:19 PM, Joseph Tainter, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been thinking this over the past couple of days. Moire? I haven't seen moire raised previously as an issue in the K10D. Pentax seems to be saying: Noise? Moire? Remove them yourselves. For the noise, that is probably okay. I don't want high ISO K10D images to look soft like the D80 ones do. But how does one remove moire? And why should it be an issue in the camera? (Why did Pentax even bring it up?) Sorry for confusion. But please note that I was quoting someone else's post and translated into English, and somewhere in the process, something may have been lost in translation :-). I tried to find out the original posts (in Japan) but apparently they are now buried deep into cyber space. Moire is probably not the right word but I could not find other terminology. I would say it was probably colour noise he was talking about. What Pentax were saying, as I interpreted, was the images (jpeg?) were so good right out of the camera without any setting of noise removal and others (such as natural/bright or whatever else the camera has). We'll see how people report this weekend from Tokyo. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
What Pentax were saying, as I interpreted, was the images (jpeg?) were so good right out of the camera without any setting of noise removal and others (such as natural/bright or whatever else the camera has). We'll see how people report this weekend from Tokyo. Ken - Thanks, Ken. I hope people at the Tokyo show will ask Pentax more questions about how the images were processed to make the prints. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Hell, I don't even know what moire is! Quoting Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From one of Ken's reports: Pentax explanation on the floor said they were not forcing the removal of the nosie, colour noise or colour moire. Instead, they are going by the extremely finer gradation to render very natural images. They further said that if anyone would be bothered by the colour moire etc, it can be easily removed by post processing. I have been thinking this over the past couple of days. Moire? I haven't seen moire raised previously as an issue in the K10D. Pentax seems to be saying: Noise? Moire? Remove them yourselves. For the noise, that is probably okay. I don't want high ISO K10D images to look soft like the D80 ones do. But how does one remove moire? And why should it be an issue in the camera? (Why did Pentax even bring it up?) Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Moire is the odd patterns you sometimes see in fine (high frequency) detail in digital shots or scans. -Adam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hell, I don't even know what moire is! Quoting Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From one of Ken's reports: Pentax explanation on the floor said they were not forcing the removal of the nosie, colour noise or colour moire. Instead, they are going by the extremely finer gradation to render very natural images. They further said that if anyone would be bothered by the colour moire etc, it can be easily removed by post processing. I have been thinking this over the past couple of days. Moire? I haven't seen moire raised previously as an issue in the K10D. Pentax seems to be saying: Noise? Moire? Remove them yourselves. For the noise, that is probably okay. I don't want high ISO K10D images to look soft like the D80 ones do. But how does one remove moire? And why should it be an issue in the camera? (Why did Pentax even bring it up?) Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Re: Show in Japan
On 10/17/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Moire is the odd patterns you sometimes see in fine (high frequency) detail in digital shots or scans. -Adam Actually, I just accidentally found the thread in Japan wherein folks are talking about the moire, taking an examplke of Pnteax's recent sample. http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site. If you look really close at the area of her right shoulder between her arm and hair, you might be able to see some colour moire. It is hard to see but it's there. The fabric is supposed to be pure white but has a very fine thread pattern. They all say this is moire, and are not all concerned about it. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Re: Show in Japan
Aha...yes I see some colour lines there, but you really have to be looking right up close to spot it. I can't see that bothering me. James Quoting Ken Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 10/17/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Moire is the odd patterns you sometimes see in fine (high frequency) detail in digital shots or scans. -Adam Actually, I just accidentally found the thread in Japan wherein folks are talking about the moire, taking an examplke of Pnteax's recent sample. http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site. If you look really close at the area of her right shoulder between her arm and hair, you might be able to see some colour moire. It is hard to see but it's there. The fabric is supposed to be pure white but has a very fine thread pattern. They all say this is moire, and are not all concerned about it. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Re: Show in Japan
On 18/10/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aha...yes I see some colour lines there, but you really have to be looking right up close to spot it. I can't see that bothering me. It may be quite annoying to me, I shoot do shoot fabrics under controlled lighting,. It's an indication that the selected AA filter isn't doing what it's supposed to do. The problem is near impossible to remedy in post processing as it's an optical effect therefore can't be readily distinguished from wanted information. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Show in Japan
http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site - When I look at this image at a scale that fills the browser window, or fills the screen in PS, I see moire all over the area of the blouse outside of the bib (whatever it's called). But when I enlarge the image the moire goes away. So I assume it is just an effect of the monitor. Yes? No? Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Adam Maas wrote: Moire is the odd patterns you sometimes see in fine (high frequency) detail in digital shots or scans. Or when you look through two screens at the same time, and they're at slight angles to each other. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Digital Image Studio wrote: The problem is near impossible to remedy in post processing as it's an optical effect therefore can't be readily distinguished from wanted information. It's near impossible to prevent, too, if you're using a sensor with the pixels in a regular arrangement. The only reason film usually avoids gross moire patterns is that its pixel array is semi-random. If your sensor array is a regular arrangement, like a grid, then there's always some source image that can interact with the sensor array to produce a form of moire. The problem is worse in the case of cameras in that both the sensor array and a lot of other man-made things are regular rectangular grids. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Ken Takeshita wrote: http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site. If you look really close at the area of her right shoulder between her arm and hair, you might be able to see some colour moire. It is hard to see but it's there. The fabric is supposed to be pure white but has a very fine thread pattern. They all say this is moire, and are not all concerned about it. I see it, for sure. But in this case, anyway, it's only going to show up to pixel peeping. I bet if it shows up on a print, it'll be unnoticeable. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Joseph Tainter wrote: So I assume it is just an effect of the monitor. Yes? No? The regular grid of the pixels on a monitor can also exhibit moire in its interactions with the grid in the digital image. Basically, you can get moire at almost any interaction like image-sensor, image-display, image-photo, etc., if both parts are using regular grids of pixels. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Yes. If it only appears at one enlargement it's a result of monitor scan lines and pixels lining up in an unfortunate way. Paul On Oct 17, 2006, at 8:31 PM, Joseph Tainter wrote: http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site - When I look at this image at a scale that fills the browser window, or fills the screen in PS, I see moire all over the area of the blouse outside of the bib (whatever it's called). But when I enlarge the image the moire goes away. So I assume it is just an effect of the monitor. Yes? No? Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
- Original Message - From: Joseph Tainter http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site - When I look at this image at a scale that fills the browser window, or fills the screen in PS, I see moire all over the area of the blouse outside of the bib (whatever it's called). But when I enlarge the image the moire goes away. So I assume it is just an effect of the monitor. Yes? No? Probably an effect of resampling the image to fit the browser window. I printed that file on my Epson 4800 to a 10x16 print side. It looks quite excellent. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 18/10/06, Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's near impossible to prevent, too, if you're using a sensor with the pixels in a regular arrangement. The only reason film usually avoids gross moire patterns is that its pixel array is semi-random. If your sensor array is a regular arrangement, like a grid, then there's always some source image that can interact with the sensor array to produce a form of moire. The problem is worse in the case of cameras in that both the sensor array and a lot of other man-made things are regular rectangular grids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aliasing_filter -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On Oct 17, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Ken Takeshita wrote: Actually, I just accidentally found the thread in Japan wherein folks are talking about the moire, taking an examplke of Pnteax's recent sample. http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k10d/image/ex_02.jpg This is the sample 2 shown in the K10D site. If you look really close at the area of her right shoulder between her arm and hair, you might be able to see some colour moire. It is hard to see but it's there. The fabric is supposed to be pure white but has a very fine thread pattern. They all say this is moire, and are not all concerned about it. Ken Well, that's it. The camera is useless. Doug Brewer http://www.drivingtheflies.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/17/06 8:49 PM, Doug Franklin, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see it, for sure. But in this case, anyway, it's only going to show up to pixel peeping. I bet if it shows up on a print, it'll be unnoticeable. As you said, they (folks in Japan) were saying that this was a result of sensor array happened to have resonated with the patter of fabric in certain angle. They are rather admiring the detail of the fabric captured (and its pure white, a rather difficult situation for digital camera). They also said that the colour moire is a common occurrence for any digicam. So, I am not concerned. I am surprised that they actually found this :-). But it made me think that the pixel peeping be rather silly, going all over the image in front of monitor to locater some technical flows. Again, as you said, if this was printed, even in a fair size, you will never notice it, but just enjoying the image. Considering this is a jpeg image , I thought it was excellent. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 18/10/06, Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see it, for sure. But in this case, anyway, it's only going to show up to pixel peeping. I bet if it shows up on a print, it'll be unnoticeable. Some of the printing firms that I used to service were big into printing high quality catalogues, moire at the print stage was ever a problem when using regular screens. Most of these firms were the first to embrace stochastic screening methods specifically to eliminate these problems with prints of material weaves. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 18/10/06, Doug Brewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, that's it. The camera is useless. That was one great thing about the *ist D, the AA filter seemed very well matched to the sensor which meant that images sharpened well and rarely suffered aliasing problems, though it didn't measure up as well regarding resolution as some of the other cameras built around the same sensor. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Digital Image Studio wrote: [Moire a/k/a aliasing discussion] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aliasing_filter Been there, done that. They help, but you always end up with /some/ pathological case. Now, if you can engineer the pathological cases to be outside the problem domain, you're set. ;-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Thanks for the report, Ken. My order is in, I wait patiently. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
I must have missed a few posts. Is it really so that the new Pentax system is a disappointment? Which experts here have concluded that? Perhaps JCO worked up some numbers. Shel Quoting Mark Roberts I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
LOL 2006/10/16, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
It's a joke, Shel. Because a few of us have pointed out that the 22-bit signal processor in the K10D is ridiculously over- designed, some people have misinterpreted that statement in all sorts of ways. On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 05:11:46AM -0700, Shel Belinkoff wrote: I must have missed a few posts. Is it really so that the new Pentax system is a disappointment? Which experts here have concluded that? Perhaps JCO worked up some numbers. Shel Quoting Mark Roberts I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
1. Re the delivery delay, Pentax's reason seems to be true. They realized that the current stock level was obviously inadequate. But the production has started approx a month ago. Thanks, Ken. This is hopeful news. But I cannot believe Pentax's reason for the delay. If production started a month ago, Pentax should have about 13,000 K10D cameras by now. It makes no sense that these are just sitting in a warehouse rather than earning the company a return on its investment. Pentax hasn't done anything like this with previous products. I remember waiting and waiting to get a DA 14 when it was first released. It arrived in the U.S. four months after it was available in Europe. Pentax is saying that they won't ship any cameras until they have 35,000 in the warehouse. That is bizarre. (I'm not questioning your report, Ken, just commenting on Pentax's claim.) But perhaps it comes down to what is meant by production. Pentax UK reported that assembly started October 11. (Of course, this is from Pentax guys, whose reports are often inaccurate.) Perhaps production in this case means that production of components started in September, and that assembly of components started when Pentax UK said they did. If so, the delay in shipping would make more sense. Well, it doesn't matter. The camera will come when the camera comes. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/16/06 1:38 PM, Joseph Tainter, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I cannot believe Pentax's reason for the delay. If production started a month ago, Pentax should have about 13,000 K10D cameras by now. It makes no sense that these are just sitting in a warehouse rather than earning the company a return on its investment. Pentax hasn't done anything like this with previous products. Hi Joe, I share your concerns but this seems to be really true. Normally, the shareholders of Pentax won't allow this sort of thing under a normal circumstance. But this is not a normal circumstance. Besides, I am no longer sure that 13,000units/mo figure is correct. This was probably set very cautiously before they found this overwhelming orders. I am sure they have capacity to produce more. This subject is also vigorously discussed in Japan. Japanese market is also not getting any. All preorders have been delayed. It is rather amazing that there seems to be very little complaint (certainly much disappointment). Here is the way I understand from the discussion by people seemingly in the know. 1. This measure is not about the Japanese domestic market that can be easily taken care of. It is rather more about the overseas markets wherein the form of the delivery contracts is different from the domestic. Normally, Pentax (or probably any other camera mfrs) have tight contracts with importers/distributors in each country, which stipulate the simultaneous release in the world, and the contracted quantity to be delivered by then. 2. They cannot discriminate the buyers by different delivery dates, like one country can get certain qty while another country would get the delivery one week later etc. Also, they cannot divert one half of the qty to be delivered to a certain country to another country etc. 3. Pentax were probably negotiating with each importer for the smaller initial delivery qty without penalty, but obviously no one agreed. Of course they won't, as they know they can sell. So, there was no option left for Pentax but to conform to their original contract, hence rather a delayed delivery date. Perhaps no definitive delivery date promise was stipulated in the original contracts, except of course the planned one. So, it was really that much overwhelming demand which has caused this situation. Sure, there would be an additional month worth of warehousing expense etc, but hopefully it could be easily depreciated by the better sales (much better one). I believe the shipment must have already started as the product becomes available. They just cannot sell until the release date (and all ordered qty is delivered). I have just noticed that Nikon announced the delay (again!) of their new zoom Nikkor 70-300mm for more than 2 months. They seem to have a chronic problem like this. The reason in this case? You guessed it. Overwhelming and more than anticipated orders. Sounds familiar :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/16/06 2:28 PM, Joseph Tainter, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Prints are meaningless if we are not told how the images were processed. They are saying that samples were jpeg (I personally think they are in-camera RAW images) with no noise reduction. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
1. This measure is not about the Japanese domestic market that can be easily taken care of. It is rather more about the overseas markets wherein the form of the delivery contracts is different from the domestic. Normally, Pentax (or probably any other camera mfrs) have tight contracts with importers/distributors in each country, which stipulate the simultaneous release in the world, and the contracted quantity to be delivered by then. Ken, thanks very much for taking the time to clarify this. Are these stipulations in the delivery contracts new? Here in the U.S., we have been accustomed to getting new Pentax equipment nearly last in the world. Sometimes (when I have had travel coming up) this has been a real problem for me. The DA 14 arrived in Europe in June of 2004. It arrived in the U.S. October. When the DA 40, shipped, the difference was less--only a few weeks. Earlier this year, the DA 10-17 was being sold in Canada several weeks before it was available in the U.S. But when the DA 21 came out, it seemed that there was a lag of only a few days between when it went on sale in Europe and here. And the poor Australians seem to be last on the worldwide list. So the lag in getting new equipment to the U.S. has been decreasing. Is this because of the contracts? But aren't most of the importers now subsidiaries of Pentax Japan? What does that mean for these contracts? Would Pentax sue itself? So many questions. Maybe someone in Japan can answer. Anyway, Ken, thanks again. You are a wonderful resource for us. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
16 okt 2006 kl. 20:14 skrev [EMAIL PROTECTED]: But I cannot believe Pentax's reason for the delay. If production started a month ago, Pentax should have about 13,000 K10D cameras by now. It makes no sense that these are just sitting in a warehouse rather than earning the company a return on its investment. Pentax hasn't done anything like this with previous products. Joe, I'm not so sure, I seem to recall that they delayed the Optio A10 not that long ago with the same motivation. I had to wait a couple of extra weeks for my camera. Of course, that's what they said, the real reason may have been different. Regards, Bertil -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/16/06 3:03 PM, Joseph Tainter, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So many questions. Maybe someone in Japan can answer. As you say, people in the know should answer. I do not want to mislead PDMLers with unfounded info. However, my understanding is that this is pretty much the way it works particularly in the simultaneous initial launching scenario. With other mfrs, some products often introduced in Europe first etc, but it is probably under a different scenario. This delivery delay subject is well discussed in Japan and I will certainly see if any interesting/useful info might come out of there. As I said, people are remarkably patient this time, with no appreciable bitching which usually follow after this sort of situation. Perhaps they resigned to the fact that Pentax are no N/C and can accept their problem, which really stemmed from the fact they offered an excellent product (could not imagine a few years ago when people thought the sky was falling :-). Hope Pentax would use this as a stepping stone and keep up with the competitions which would be fierce (and furious). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
The web images you're looking at are too low-res to provide any real information in regard to noise levels. I'm surprised that you're wringing your hands over low-res web images produced with 0.2 firmware. Paul -- Original message -- From: Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Firmware was said to be 0.2Folks did not see any appreciable noise in the sample prints. Considering these were based on v0.2 firmware, they were impressed. ISO 1600 images can be found here, presumably taken with Firmware 0.20: http://www.pbase.com/ohyva/gx10_samples Downloading the full-size originals, then looking at them at Actual Pixels, I am not encouraged. I reduced the noise in Noise Ninja, which improved the images greatly. But then I tried to give them moderate sharpening with nik Sharpener Pro, and the images looked just terrible--worse than the originals. This is the problem with high noise: one can't sharpen. Prints are meaningless if we are not told how the images were processed. My conclusion is that we still have no information about how the K10D will perform at higher ISO settings. I am prepared for the camera to be unuseable above ISO 400. But the images at this link were taken with the Samsung. Optimistically, maybe the problem was that the lens was mounted wrong. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/16/06 3:03 PM, Joseph Tainter, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It arrived in the U.S. October. When the DA 40, shipped, the difference was less--only a few weeks. Earlier this year, the DA 10-17 was being sold in Canada several weeks before it was available in the U.S. But when the DA 21 came out, it seemed that there was a lag of only a few days between when it went on sale in Europe and here. Oh, I don't know about lenses. This world simultaneous launch thing is mostly for bodies only, I think (and not all the time). BTW, although this might be an old info, but there might be a reason why the lens delivery is the U.S. is later than other countries. Are Pentax lenses still assembled in Vietnam? I am pretty sure they are (I am getting a bit out of touch on these things :-). Because of some sort of trade embargo from Vietnam to the U.S. (and I do not know it still applies), Pentax had to create a separate distribution channel (thru Philippines or something?), that takes additional time. No such problem with Canada. My memory is vague. Just FYI only though. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Re: Show in Japan
On 10/16/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The web images you're looking at are too low-res to provide any real information in regard to noise levels. I'm surprised that you're wringing your hands over low-res web images produced with 0.2 firmware. Paul I was wondering what images he was looking at :-), as I do not recall any of these floor samples (pressumably printed) were ever publised as ofiicial ones. Well, people were satisfied and Pentax chose to show these high ISO samples. That's a good indication. BTW, this show will be repeated in Tokyo this weekend and I am sure more usuer impression would come out. Anyway, the actual delivery is not too far, and hope Pentax can continue uninterrupted supply. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The web images you're looking at are too low-res to provide any real information in regard to noise levels. I'm surprised that you're wringing your hands over low-res web images produced with 0.2 firmware. ISO 1600 images can be found here, presumably taken with Firmware 0.20: http://www.pbase.com/ohyva/gx10_samples click on original and you get a 3MB image. I base nothing on these images because the camera is not in the stores yet. I'll reserve any judgment with regards to quality when I see real images shot with a camera bought from a store. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/16/06 3:44 PM, Joseph Tainter, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But there is no problem with direct economic ties between Vietnam and the U.S. A couple of years ago someone reported here that all production from the Hanoi plant goes to Manila, from where it is shipped to fill orders. But I don't know if this is true. It is consistent with my understanding. I learned it via Pentax at the time I thought it was a high tariff issue for anything entering from Vietnam to U.S. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/16/06 3:52 PM, Christian, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ISO 1600 images can be found here, presumably taken with Firmware 0.20: Now I understood what my confusion was. All along, I was talking about two samples shown in the Show in Japan in ISO 1000 and 1600 respectively, taken by a pro and blown up to A2 size (and based on V0.2 and presumably right out of the camera, in jpeg or in-camera RAW). I never thought they were on the web. Anyway, it seems hard to make anything out of those snap shots as referred to above :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
If you wanna judje with a GX10 v020 then use my picture, at leastn it is available in RAW. That JPEGs is awfully compressed :( 2006/10/16, Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Firmware was said to be 0.2Folks did not see any appreciable noise in the sample prints. Considering these were based on v0.2 firmware, they were impressed. ISO 1600 images can be found here, presumably taken with Firmware 0.20: http://www.pbase.com/ohyva/gx10_samples Downloading the full-size originals, then looking at them at Actual Pixels, I am not encouraged. I reduced the noise in Noise Ninja, which improved the images greatly. But then I tried to give them moderate sharpening with nik Sharpener Pro, and the images looked just terrible--worse than the originals. This is the problem with high noise: one can't sharpen. Prints are meaningless if we are not told how the images were processed. My conclusion is that we still have no information about how the K10D will perform at higher ISO settings. I am prepared for the camera to be unuseable above ISO 400. But the images at this link were taken with the Samsung. Optimistically, maybe the problem was that the lens was mounted wrong. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Joseph Tainter wrote: Downloading the full-size originals, then looking at them at Actual Pixels... groan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
No, trade with Vietnam has been normalized for some time, at least 15 years. Joseph Tainter wrote: Are Pentax lenses still assembled in Vietnam? I am pretty sure they are (I am getting a bit out of touch on these things :-). Because of some sort of trade embargo from Vietnam to the U.S. (and I do not know it still applies), Pentax had to create a separate distribution channel (thru Philippines or something?), that takes additional time. No such problem with Canada. My memory is vague. Just FYI only though. - Yes, the lenses are assembled in Vietnam (although there was a production run of the FA 35 and FA 50 F1.4 in Japan last year). But there is no problem with direct economic ties between Vietnam and the U.S. A couple of years ago someone reported here that all production from the Hanoi plant goes to Manila, from where it is shipped to fill orders. But I don't know if this is true. Perhaps, as you suggest, there are different fulfillment protocols for bodies and lenses. But I am still puzzled, since most national importers are owned by Pentax. Perhaps Pentax is trying to avoid the problem of customers in, say, the U.S., ordering cameras from Europe because they haven't yet arrived in the U.S. Joe -- Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler. --Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 16.10.06, at 21:03 , Joseph Tainter wrote: Are these stipulations in the delivery contracts new? Here in the U.S., we have been accustomed to getting new Pentax equipment nearly last in the world. I would gladly wait one or two months longer for a new equipment just to get US prices in Europe ;-) Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Joseph Tainter wrote: Paul, I believe they are full-size jpegs. At least they felt that way when I downloaded them on my dial-up connection. And the high ISO images showed in Japan yesterday were taken with firmware version 0.20. Pentax is getting a lot of mileage out of that version. When I clicked on Original I got what seemed to be a full-size JPG (it was over 3,500 x 2,400). It looked much better than any scan of an ASA 1600 negative film I've ever gotten. Better than a lot of scans of ASA 100 negative film I've seen and made. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Joseph Tainter wrote: And the high ISO images showed in Japan yesterday were taken with firmware version 0.20. Pentax is getting a lot of mileage out of that version. But don't forget the different hardware version prototypes. I read somewhere that Pentax were testing 4 different main board versions in the prototypes. And we don't know which version that Samsung prototype was running. The same firmware running in different beta hardware versions (the Samsung) vs the final production hardware (presummably the Talk Live Samples) could make a very big difference. There are just too many uncertainties from the different beta hardware and different beta firmware to draw any reasonable conclusion on the final output of the K10D. -- --Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.vex.net/~lawrence -- --Tungsten T3 Enhanced DIA KeyboardNokia Ringtone Convertor-- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/15/06, K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. There were two samples in ISO 1000 and 1600. It said in the samples that those are not based on the latest firmware. Firmware was said to be 0.2 Pentax explanation on the floor said they were not forcing the removal of the nosie, colour noise or colour moire. Instead, they are going by the extremely finer gradation to render very natural images. They further said that if anyone would be bothered by the colour moire etc, it can be easily removed by post processing. Folks did not see any appreciable noise in the sample prints. Considering these were based on v0.2 firmware, they were impressed. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
On 10/15/06 9:03 PM, Mark Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. ;-) LOL :-))) Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Quoting Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. ;-) * Yeah, and since the K10D only deals with real apertures and not simulated ones, I'm seriously considering cancelling my pre-order. James -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Coverage (in Japanese) and photos from the show (including one of the comparison prints) here: http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/dslr/2006/10/16/4833.html -Marco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
LOL! -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Mark Roberts wrote: I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Show in Japan
Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. How could it? It doesn't have an aperture simulator ! Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Show in Japan I'm sorry Ken but I don't believe a word of this. Experts on the PDML have counted the incoming photons and outgoing electrons and proven conclusively that Pentax engineers don't know what they're doing and that the processing engine of the K10D doesn't work. ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
