Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[John]

Not just "like" a revolution, it WAS a revolution; although I think you're 
getting the cart before the horse. The revolution led to the breakup of AT 
rather than vice versa.


Plus, there's a big difference in being a monopoly in an essential service and 
having a monopoly on a luxury product.


On 5/23/2018 22:36, Gonz wrote:

Thats for sure.  When AT was a monopoly, there was no innovation.
The princess phone was their "innovation"  Once they got broken up, it
was like a revolution.


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:18 AM, William Robb
 wrote:

Their strategy appears to aim to be the last man standing. I'm not sure how
good it would be for the industry to only have one or two choices.
Monopolies or near monopolies are never a good thing.

bill

On Tue, May 22, 2018, 11:39 PM Gonz,  wrote:


That is A LOT of money.  It can only be good for the industry, the
resulting tech war should bring some interesting new products.


On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Bill 
wrote:

On 5/22/2018 9:17 PM, Gonz wrote:


Wow, this is crazy... Sounds more than just throwing to see what
sticks...  I guess time will tell.




https://petapixel.com/2018/05/22/sony-investing-9b-in-image-sensors-aims-to-be-top-camera-brand-by-2021/




They have a lot of money. It will be interesting to see if they can make

it

stick to something.






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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

Thats for sure.  When AT was a monopoly, there was no innovation.
The princess phone was their "innovation"  Once they got broken up, it
was like a revolution.


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:18 AM, William Robb
 wrote:
> Their strategy appears to aim to be the last man standing. I'm not sure how
> good it would be for the industry to only have one or two choices.
> Monopolies or near monopolies are never a good thing.
>
> bill
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2018, 11:39 PM Gonz,  wrote:
>
>> That is A LOT of money.  It can only be good for the industry, the
>> resulting tech war should bring some interesting new products.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Bill 
>> wrote:
>> > On 5/22/2018 9:17 PM, Gonz wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Wow, this is crazy... Sounds more than just throwing to see what
>> >> sticks...  I guess time will tell.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://petapixel.com/2018/05/22/sony-investing-9b-in-image-sensors-aims-to-be-top-camera-brand-by-2021/
>> >>
>> >
>> > They have a lot of money. It will be interesting to see if they can make
>> it
>> > stick to something.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[William Robb]

Their strategy appears to aim to be the last man standing. I'm not sure how
good it would be for the industry to only have one or two choices.
Monopolies or near monopolies are never a good thing.

bill

On Tue, May 22, 2018, 11:39 PM Gonz,  wrote:

> That is A LOT of money.  It can only be good for the industry, the
> resulting tech war should bring some interesting new products.
>
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Bill 
> wrote:
> > On 5/22/2018 9:17 PM, Gonz wrote:
> >>
> >> Wow, this is crazy... Sounds more than just throwing to see what
> >> sticks...  I guess time will tell.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://petapixel.com/2018/05/22/sony-investing-9b-in-image-sensors-aims-to-be-top-camera-brand-by-2021/
> >>
> >
> > They have a lot of money. It will be interesting to see if they can make
> it
> > stick to something.
> >
> >
> > --
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>
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

That is A LOT of money.  It can only be good for the industry, the
resulting tech war should bring some interesting new products.


On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Bill  wrote:
> On 5/22/2018 9:17 PM, Gonz wrote:
>>
>> Wow, this is crazy... Sounds more than just throwing to see what
>> sticks...  I guess time will tell.
>>
>>
>> https://petapixel.com/2018/05/22/sony-investing-9b-in-image-sensors-aims-to-be-top-camera-brand-by-2021/
>>
>
> They have a lot of money. It will be interesting to see if they can make it
> stick to something.
>
>
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Bill]

On 5/22/2018 9:17 PM, Gonz wrote:

Wow, this is crazy... Sounds more than just throwing to see what
sticks...  I guess time will tell.

https://petapixel.com/2018/05/22/sony-investing-9b-in-image-sensors-aims-to-be-top-camera-brand-by-2021/



They have a lot of money. It will be interesting to see if they can make 
it stick to something.


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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

Wow, this is crazy... Sounds more than just throwing to see what
sticks...  I guess time will tell.

https://petapixel.com/2018/05/22/sony-investing-9b-in-image-sensors-aims-to-be-top-camera-brand-by-2021/


On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Bill  wrote:
> On 5/17/2018 12:26 PM, Gonz wrote:
>>
>> I see your point Bill, and you arguments make a certain amount of
>> sense as far as Ricoh's direction.  But where I diverge in my opinion
>> is the survival part.  Granted there will always be that cadre of
>> Pentax die hards, but as you can see from the average age of pdml
>> posters, its only going up, not down.
>
>
> The PDML is one of the best kept secrets on the internet. I hardly think we
> can use this mailing list as an example.
> I just entered "Pentax camera forums" into Google and what came back was
> forums neurotica, pentaxuser.com and DPReview.
> We aren't exactly on anyone's radar here.
> Spend some time on the neurotic forum and you will find plenty of thin
> skinned millennials just looking to take offense at even the smallest
> slight.
>
>
>  I.e. there is very little new
>>
>> Pentax "blood" coming in.  So someone who is just coming into the high
>> end/pro side of photography will in all likelihood migrate to one of
>> the big three i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony.  Well at least as 35mm is
>> concerned.  I think medium format is a completely different beast and
>> I wont even venture an opinion on that.  Then there is Leica, but they
>> are also on a different league altogether when it comes to high end.
>> So where does that leave Pentax?
>
>
> It leaves them with somewhat of an uphill battle to be sure, but I do think
> that if Ricoh was planning on shuttering the brand any time soon we wouldn't
> be seeing long term plans and short term new products coming out of their
> factories.
>
>  With a reputation of a lower
>>
>> cost/amateur manufacturer, they will have a real hard time competing
>> in the space with those big boys and all their resources.  The market
>> is definitely shrinking, and it makes perfect sense to go after the
>> only remaining market not eviscerated by phone cameras (though I've
>> seen pros starting to move there too and even making full movies with
>> them), but whether they will survive or not is a crap shoot.
>
>
> Whether anyone survives is a crap shoot. Nikon is, from what I've read,
> somewhat on the ropes, Canon is taking hits all over the place because of
> very outdated sensor technology (the peril of making your own and then not
> throwing R dollars at the division that invents them), Sony makes no bones
> about throwing money at the wall and seeing what sticks. As soon as cameras
> stop sticking, they are out of the game, the same way they got out of
> consumer video recorders with Beta and became just another also ran VHS
> maker.
> I was, as it happens, one of the consumers they left high and dry with a
> cabinet full of tapes and no machine available to play them on.
>
> Friends don't let friends buy Sony.
>
> Canon is something of a crap shoot. As the market shrinks, they will look
> more and more at mirrorless, and I wouldn't be surprised if they jump in
> with both feet and change their mount (again). If they do that, expect the
> EF mount to go the way of the FD mount, with the same lame excuse given for
> killing it.
>
> They got away with it once, they might well try to get away with it again.
>
> At least Ricoh bought the Pentax brand because they wanted it and thought
> they could build something with it. Canon and Nikon are just doing what they
> have always done, and really, so is Sony (toying with a market until it
> dries up and then walking away).
>
> Fuji really is, to my mind, the safe bet regarding the camera industry, but
> let's not pretend that they can't fail either.
>
>
> bill
>
>
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Steve Cottrell]

On 18/5/18, Larry Colen, discombobulated, unleashed:

>I'd love for them to take some of the Rokinon/Samyang primes, make them 
>weather sealed, and autofocus, maybe even HD coatings.  My Rokinon 
>24/1.4 is a stellar lens for night photography.  They've got a bunch of 
>other nice looking lenses as well.

My Samyang 12/2 is one of the best lenses I've ever owned. Metal body heft, 
aperture ring and manual focus - and very good sharpness. On MFT it's a 
wonderful angle of view and I use it a lot.

It's only downfall is that it isn't available in K mount



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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Subash Jeyan]

On Fri, 18 May 2018 19:09:29 -0700
Larry Colen  wrote:

> Paul Stenquist wrote:
> > Reworking old lens formulas might not work. The optimum image
> > circle isn’t the same. And there’s something about the older lenses
> > that causes fringing. Clean sheet new designs are probably a better
> > direction. In my experience, the new zooms are better than most of
> > the A and FA primes.  
> 
> I'd love for them to take some of the Rokinon/Samyang primes, make
> them weather sealed, and autofocus, maybe even HD coatings.  My
> Rokinon 24/1.4 is a stellar lens for night photography.  They've got
> a bunch of other nice looking lenses as well.
> 
> They could also team up with Sigma to produce some of the new Sigma 
> lenses in Pentax mount, since Sigma isn't interested.

since they have a history of collaboration with tamron, they could also
rebadge the tamron 150-600 g2. but i am afraid that'll never happen for
fear that it will eat into the sales of the DFA 150-450



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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Larry Colen]

Paul Stenquist wrote:

Reworking old lens formulas might not work. The optimum image circle isn’t the 
same. And there’s something about the older lenses that causes fringing. Clean 
sheet new designs are probably a better direction. In my experience, the new 
zooms are better than most of the A and FA primes.


I'd love for them to take some of the Rokinon/Samyang primes, make them 
weather sealed, and autofocus, maybe even HD coatings.  My Rokinon 
24/1.4 is a stellar lens for night photography.  They've got a bunch of 
other nice looking lenses as well.


They could also team up with Sigma to produce some of the new Sigma 
lenses in Pentax mount, since Sigma isn't interested.


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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Paul Stenquist]

Reworking old lens formulas might not work. The optimum image circle isn’t the 
same. And there’s something about the older lenses that causes fringing. Clean 
sheet new designs are probably a better direction. In my experience, the new 
zooms are better than most of the A and FA primes.

Paul

> On May 18, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Mark C  wrote:
> 
> Gonz wrote:
>> I think where
>> Pentax is lacking is in a system.  They last had a complete system
>> back in the LX days.  Unless you plan on using only zooms, their prime
>> offerings are mostly still from the film era like the Limited series,
>> or the DA lenses that can sometimes be used in FF.   But say I want a
>> very wide prime?  The only options are used older film era lenses
>> (15mm 3.5).
> A lot of the old film era lenses are great on digital bodies, but some 
> aren't. I wish Pentax would curate a set of FA lenses that work well with the 
> K1 and give them an upgrade to shake off the perception that they are past 
> their prime and also to offset any uncertainty about how they will work on 
> digital bodies. By "update" I mean reissue with newer coatings (HD), replace 
> cam AF with SDM, maybe make them WR. Reissue FA limiteds as DFA limiteds - 
> but only reissue the ones that are truly excellent on digital bodies. Rework 
> some of the APS_C glass, like the 60-250 f4 - that were designed to be full 
> frame but don't quite cover the entire full frame sensor to make them 
> compatible with FF bodies.
> 
> I don't know how lenses are made but it seems to me that upgrading existing 
> lenses would be more cost effective than designing new ones. And it would 
> yield the dual advantage of  shaking off that perception that "its an old 
> film era lens" and also overcoming uncertainty about how well it will work on 
> digital bodies.
> 
> If Pentax really wanted to work it, they reissue some classic optic designs 
> in upgraded modern form. Like the Takumar 135 f3.5 as an SDM AF HD WR  
> lens...  or K 24mm f2.8. Keep the optical formula but upgrade them to AF etc. 
> People want the newest and most advance tech, but they are also drawn to the 
> retro classic historical stuff.
> 
> Made for digital neo-Takumar DFA Limited lens with all the bells and whistles 
> - and great optical performance - could be real winners.
> 
> Mark
> 
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Mark C]

Gonz wrote:

I think where
Pentax is lacking is in a system.  They last had a complete system
back in the LX days.  Unless you plan on using only zooms, their prime
offerings are mostly still from the film era like the Limited series,
or the DA lenses that can sometimes be used in FF.   But say I want a
very wide prime?  The only options are used older film era lenses
(15mm 3.5).
A lot of the old film era lenses are great on digital bodies, but some 
aren't. I wish Pentax would curate a set of FA lenses that work well 
with the K1 and give them an upgrade to shake off the perception that 
they are past their prime and also to offset any uncertainty about how 
they will work on digital bodies. By "update" I mean reissue with newer 
coatings (HD), replace cam AF with SDM, maybe make them WR. Reissue FA 
limiteds as DFA limiteds - but only reissue the ones that are truly 
excellent on digital bodies. Rework some of the APS_C glass, like the 
60-250 f4 - that were designed to be full frame but don't quite cover 
the entire full frame sensor to make them compatible with FF bodies.


I don't know how lenses are made but it seems to me that upgrading 
existing lenses would be more cost effective than designing new ones. 
And it would yield the dual advantage of  shaking off that perception 
that "its an old film era lens" and also overcoming uncertainty about 
how well it will work on digital bodies.


If Pentax really wanted to work it, they reissue some classic optic 
designs in upgraded modern form. Like the Takumar 135 f3.5 as an SDM AF 
HD WR  lens...  or K 24mm f2.8. Keep the optical formula but upgrade 
them to AF etc. People want the newest and most advance tech, but they 
are also drawn to the retro classic historical stuff.


Made for digital neo-Takumar DFA Limited lens with all the bells and 
whistles - and great optical performance - could be real winners.


Mark

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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

Its true that my most used lenses are the 24-70 and the 70-200 modern
DFA versions.  I haven't acquired the 150-450, but I wonder how it
would compare to modern versions of a 600.  The old film era 600/4
seemed to have a little softness from reports I heard.  I know that
Nikon's and Canon's versions are supposed to be very sharp.  We have a
lot of nesting eagles around our area during certain times of the
year, but you cannot get close enough due to property restrictions, so
a really long lens is the only option.  I tried to take some milky way
pics with the 24-70 during my trip to New Zealand and while they came
out pretty good, I was left desiring something wider to cover the
amazing vista along with the sky.


On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 10:06 AM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> For me, the lack of primes isn’t an issue, although I would like to have some 
> and believe they are coming. For 25 years I shot only primes, but today’s 
> Pentax zooms are very good and are the equal of most primes. I’ll put the 
> image quality of my D FA 150-450 up against the FA 600/4 any day. And the 
> 15-30 meets my wide angle needs handily. I have several good 50mm primes, but 
> still turn to the D FA 24-70 most often.
> Paul
>
>> On May 18, 2018, at 11:00 AM, Gonz  wrote:
>>
>> True that.  Pentax definitely is lower cost at or close to equal
>> quality or performance (except for AF, where it still is behind).  And
>> that is the major reason I started with Pentax back in 1979, they were
>> clearly more affordable and had a great reputation.  I think where
>> Pentax is lacking is in a system.  They last had a complete system
>> back in the LX days.  Unless you plan on using only zooms, their prime
>> offerings are mostly still from the film era like the Limited series,
>> or the DA lenses that can sometimes be used in FF.   But say I want a
>> very wide prime?  The only options are used older film era lenses
>> (15mm 3.5).  I would have to settle for a zoom to get a new wide
>> angle. I can't even get third party prime lenses for Pentax, like some
>> of the more lust worthy Sigma Art Series, its not worth the expense of
>> manufacturing to them. Its also true of the long lenses.  If I want a
>> 600mm f4.0, or even a 400mm 2.8, I have to get a used film era lens
>> (good luck with that), or I could settle for the DA560mm f5.6 (I hear
>> its useable FF).  A Nikon, or Canon user doesn't have this problem.
>> Yes you will pay more, but at least you have the option, with Pentax
>> you have to jump in eyes wide open.
>>
>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>>> I see some younger photographers who are making their initial purchase of 
>>> pro-level gear going to Pentax. While I agree that Pentax will likely focus 
>>> on pro and advanced amateur offerings, I think they can own the lower 
>>> priced end of that niche. Pentax is a bargain. The K-1 isn’t quite the 
>>> equal of Nikon’s best, but It is almost as capable and far less expenses. 
>>> With in-camera shake reduction that price advantage extends to lenses as 
>>> well. The Pentax D FA 70-200/2.8 sells for about $1000 less than Nikon’s 
>>> 70-200/2.8, and I would be willing to bet the image quality is just as good.
>>> Paul
>>>
 On May 17, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Gonz  wrote:

 I see your point Bill, and you arguments make a certain amount of
 sense as far as Ricoh's direction.  But where I diverge in my opinion
 is the survival part.  Granted there will always be that cadre of
 Pentax die hards, but as you can see from the average age of pdml
 posters, its only going up, not down.  I.e. there is very little new
 Pentax "blood" coming in.  So someone who is just coming into the high
 end/pro side of photography will in all likelihood migrate to one of
 the big three i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony.  Well at least as 35mm is
 concerned.  I think medium format is a completely different beast and
 I wont even venture an opinion on that.  Then there is Leica, but they
 are also on a different league altogether when it comes to high end.
 So where does that leave Pentax?  With a reputation of a lower
 cost/amateur manufacturer, they will have a real hard time competing
 in the space with those big boys and all their resources.  The market
 is definitely shrinking, and it makes perfect sense to go after the
 only remaining market not eviscerated by phone cameras (though I've
 seen pros starting to move there too and even making full movies with
 them), but whether they will survive or not is a crap shoot.


 On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, Bill  wrote:
> On 5/17/2018 8:33 AM, Gonz wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm, I've been lusting over Fuji's stuff for a while now, maybe this
>> is the push that I need.  On the other hand, I read something like
>> this:
>>

Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Paul Stenquist]

For me, the lack of primes isn’t an issue, although I would like to have some 
and believe they are coming. For 25 years I shot only primes, but today’s 
Pentax zooms are very good and are the equal of most primes. I’ll put the image 
quality of my D FA 150-450 up against the FA 600/4 any day. And the 15-30 meets 
my wide angle needs handily. I have several good 50mm primes, but still turn to 
the D FA 24-70 most often. 
Paul

> On May 18, 2018, at 11:00 AM, Gonz  wrote:
> 
> True that.  Pentax definitely is lower cost at or close to equal
> quality or performance (except for AF, where it still is behind).  And
> that is the major reason I started with Pentax back in 1979, they were
> clearly more affordable and had a great reputation.  I think where
> Pentax is lacking is in a system.  They last had a complete system
> back in the LX days.  Unless you plan on using only zooms, their prime
> offerings are mostly still from the film era like the Limited series,
> or the DA lenses that can sometimes be used in FF.   But say I want a
> very wide prime?  The only options are used older film era lenses
> (15mm 3.5).  I would have to settle for a zoom to get a new wide
> angle. I can't even get third party prime lenses for Pentax, like some
> of the more lust worthy Sigma Art Series, its not worth the expense of
> manufacturing to them. Its also true of the long lenses.  If I want a
> 600mm f4.0, or even a 400mm 2.8, I have to get a used film era lens
> (good luck with that), or I could settle for the DA560mm f5.6 (I hear
> its useable FF).  A Nikon, or Canon user doesn't have this problem.
> Yes you will pay more, but at least you have the option, with Pentax
> you have to jump in eyes wide open.
> 
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>> I see some younger photographers who are making their initial purchase of 
>> pro-level gear going to Pentax. While I agree that Pentax will likely focus 
>> on pro and advanced amateur offerings, I think they can own the lower priced 
>> end of that niche. Pentax is a bargain. The K-1 isn’t quite the equal of 
>> Nikon’s best, but It is almost as capable and far less expenses. With 
>> in-camera shake reduction that price advantage extends to lenses as well. 
>> The Pentax D FA 70-200/2.8 sells for about $1000 less than Nikon’s 
>> 70-200/2.8, and I would be willing to bet the image quality is just as good.
>> Paul
>> 
>>> On May 17, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Gonz  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I see your point Bill, and you arguments make a certain amount of
>>> sense as far as Ricoh's direction.  But where I diverge in my opinion
>>> is the survival part.  Granted there will always be that cadre of
>>> Pentax die hards, but as you can see from the average age of pdml
>>> posters, its only going up, not down.  I.e. there is very little new
>>> Pentax "blood" coming in.  So someone who is just coming into the high
>>> end/pro side of photography will in all likelihood migrate to one of
>>> the big three i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony.  Well at least as 35mm is
>>> concerned.  I think medium format is a completely different beast and
>>> I wont even venture an opinion on that.  Then there is Leica, but they
>>> are also on a different league altogether when it comes to high end.
>>> So where does that leave Pentax?  With a reputation of a lower
>>> cost/amateur manufacturer, they will have a real hard time competing
>>> in the space with those big boys and all their resources.  The market
>>> is definitely shrinking, and it makes perfect sense to go after the
>>> only remaining market not eviscerated by phone cameras (though I've
>>> seen pros starting to move there too and even making full movies with
>>> them), but whether they will survive or not is a crap shoot.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, Bill  wrote:
 On 5/17/2018 8:33 AM, Gonz wrote:
> 
> Hmmm, I've been lusting over Fuji's stuff for a while now, maybe this
> is the push that I need.  On the other hand, I read something like
> this:
> 
> 
> https://petapixel.com/2018/05/17/ricohs-new-camera-sdks-open-the-door-to-3rd-party-apps/
> 
> Which I've been advocating for years now.  There are few things that
> can create more buzz and excitement than an active third party
> ecosystem that gives you applications and features Pentax/Ricoh could
> not dream of.  This is what made Apple the phone brand that it is,
> maybe this will revive the Pentax brand and allow it to survive.
 
 
 I don't think there is much doubt that the Pentax brand will survive. What
 is in doubt is if it will survive in such a way as to make it desirable for
 entry level users. The road map is indicating all high end lenses, and as
 the camera market is shrinking at a rather alarming rate, the high end of
 the market is the safest place to be positioned.
 The low 

Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

True that.  Pentax definitely is lower cost at or close to equal
quality or performance (except for AF, where it still is behind).  And
that is the major reason I started with Pentax back in 1979, they were
clearly more affordable and had a great reputation.  I think where
Pentax is lacking is in a system.  They last had a complete system
back in the LX days.  Unless you plan on using only zooms, their prime
offerings are mostly still from the film era like the Limited series,
or the DA lenses that can sometimes be used in FF.   But say I want a
very wide prime?  The only options are used older film era lenses
(15mm 3.5).  I would have to settle for a zoom to get a new wide
angle. I can't even get third party prime lenses for Pentax, like some
of the more lust worthy Sigma Art Series, its not worth the expense of
manufacturing to them. Its also true of the long lenses.  If I want a
600mm f4.0, or even a 400mm 2.8, I have to get a used film era lens
(good luck with that), or I could settle for the DA560mm f5.6 (I hear
its useable FF).  A Nikon, or Canon user doesn't have this problem.
Yes you will pay more, but at least you have the option, with Pentax
you have to jump in eyes wide open.

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> I see some younger photographers who are making their initial purchase of 
> pro-level gear going to Pentax. While I agree that Pentax will likely focus 
> on pro and advanced amateur offerings, I think they can own the lower priced 
> end of that niche. Pentax is a bargain. The K-1 isn’t quite the equal of 
> Nikon’s best, but It is almost as capable and far less expenses. With 
> in-camera shake reduction that price advantage extends to lenses as well. The 
> Pentax D FA 70-200/2.8 sells for about $1000 less than Nikon’s 70-200/2.8, 
> and I would be willing to bet the image quality is just as good.
> Paul
>
>> On May 17, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Gonz  wrote:
>>
>> I see your point Bill, and you arguments make a certain amount of
>> sense as far as Ricoh's direction.  But where I diverge in my opinion
>> is the survival part.  Granted there will always be that cadre of
>> Pentax die hards, but as you can see from the average age of pdml
>> posters, its only going up, not down.  I.e. there is very little new
>> Pentax "blood" coming in.  So someone who is just coming into the high
>> end/pro side of photography will in all likelihood migrate to one of
>> the big three i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony.  Well at least as 35mm is
>> concerned.  I think medium format is a completely different beast and
>> I wont even venture an opinion on that.  Then there is Leica, but they
>> are also on a different league altogether when it comes to high end.
>> So where does that leave Pentax?  With a reputation of a lower
>> cost/amateur manufacturer, they will have a real hard time competing
>> in the space with those big boys and all their resources.  The market
>> is definitely shrinking, and it makes perfect sense to go after the
>> only remaining market not eviscerated by phone cameras (though I've
>> seen pros starting to move there too and even making full movies with
>> them), but whether they will survive or not is a crap shoot.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, Bill  wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2018 8:33 AM, Gonz wrote:

 Hmmm, I've been lusting over Fuji's stuff for a while now, maybe this
 is the push that I need.  On the other hand, I read something like
 this:


 https://petapixel.com/2018/05/17/ricohs-new-camera-sdks-open-the-door-to-3rd-party-apps/

 Which I've been advocating for years now.  There are few things that
 can create more buzz and excitement than an active third party
 ecosystem that gives you applications and features Pentax/Ricoh could
 not dream of.  This is what made Apple the phone brand that it is,
 maybe this will revive the Pentax brand and allow it to survive.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think there is much doubt that the Pentax brand will survive. What
>>> is in doubt is if it will survive in such a way as to make it desirable for
>>> entry level users. The road map is indicating all high end lenses, and as
>>> the camera market is shrinking at a rather alarming rate, the high end of
>>> the market is the safest place to be positioned.
>>> The low end of the market is being eviscerated by the cell phone market. Low
>>> end, low cost products have to sell in huge numbers to be profitable. Going
>>> forwards, those sales numbers simply won't exist.
>>> Witness Ford getting out of the sedan market, essentially abandoning the
>>> entry level automobile market to Korean manufacturers as an example.
>>> My guess is that the Pentax brand is going to pretty much abandon the
>>> beginner market (the Ricoh brand may pick up traction there), and
>>> concentrate on high end products that can be profitable at low volumes.
>>>
>>> As much as forum users 

Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Bill]

On 5/17/2018 12:37 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

I see some younger photographers who are making their initial purchase of 
pro-level gear going to Pentax. While I agree that Pentax will likely focus on 
pro and advanced amateur offerings, I think they can own the lower priced end 
of that niche. Pentax is a bargain. The K-1 isn’t quite the equal of Nikon’s 
best, but It is almost as capable and far less expenses. With in-camera shake 
reduction that price advantage extends to lenses as well. The Pentax D FA 
70-200/2.8 sells for about $1000 less than Nikon’s 70-200/2.8, and I would be 
willing to bet the image quality is just as good.
Paul


Agreed.

bill

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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Bill]

On 5/17/2018 12:26 PM, Gonz wrote:

I see your point Bill, and you arguments make a certain amount of
sense as far as Ricoh's direction.  But where I diverge in my opinion
is the survival part.  Granted there will always be that cadre of
Pentax die hards, but as you can see from the average age of pdml
posters, its only going up, not down. 


The PDML is one of the best kept secrets on the internet. I hardly think 
we can use this mailing list as an example.
I just entered "Pentax camera forums" into Google and what came back was 
forums neurotica, pentaxuser.com and DPReview.

We aren't exactly on anyone's radar here.
Spend some time on the neurotic forum and you will find plenty of thin 
skinned millennials just looking to take offense at even the smallest 
slight.



 I.e. there is very little new

Pentax "blood" coming in.  So someone who is just coming into the high
end/pro side of photography will in all likelihood migrate to one of
the big three i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony.  Well at least as 35mm is
concerned.  I think medium format is a completely different beast and
I wont even venture an opinion on that.  Then there is Leica, but they
are also on a different league altogether when it comes to high end.
So where does that leave Pentax? 


It leaves them with somewhat of an uphill battle to be sure, but I do 
think that if Ricoh was planning on shuttering the brand any time soon 
we wouldn't be seeing long term plans and short term new products coming 
out of their factories.


 With a reputation of a lower

cost/amateur manufacturer, they will have a real hard time competing
in the space with those big boys and all their resources.  The market
is definitely shrinking, and it makes perfect sense to go after the
only remaining market not eviscerated by phone cameras (though I've
seen pros starting to move there too and even making full movies with
them), but whether they will survive or not is a crap shoot.


Whether anyone survives is a crap shoot. Nikon is, from what I've read, 
somewhat on the ropes, Canon is taking hits all over the place because 
of very outdated sensor technology (the peril of making your own and 
then not throwing R dollars at the division that invents them), Sony 
makes no bones about throwing money at the wall and seeing what sticks. 
As soon as cameras stop sticking, they are out of the game, the same way 
they got out of consumer video recorders with Beta and became just 
another also ran VHS maker.
I was, as it happens, one of the consumers they left high and dry with a 
cabinet full of tapes and no machine available to play them on.


Friends don't let friends buy Sony.

Canon is something of a crap shoot. As the market shrinks, they will 
look more and more at mirrorless, and I wouldn't be surprised if they 
jump in with both feet and change their mount (again). If they do that, 
expect the EF mount to go the way of the FD mount, with the same lame 
excuse given for killing it.


They got away with it once, they might well try to get away with it again.

At least Ricoh bought the Pentax brand because they wanted it and 
thought they could build something with it. Canon and Nikon are just 
doing what they have always done, and really, so is Sony (toying with a 
market until it dries up and then walking away).


Fuji really is, to my mind, the safe bet regarding the camera industry, 
but let's not pretend that they can't fail either.


bill


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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Paul Stenquist]

I see some younger photographers who are making their initial purchase of 
pro-level gear going to Pentax. While I agree that Pentax will likely focus on 
pro and advanced amateur offerings, I think they can own the lower priced end 
of that niche. Pentax is a bargain. The K-1 isn’t quite the equal of Nikon’s 
best, but It is almost as capable and far less expenses. With in-camera shake 
reduction that price advantage extends to lenses as well. The Pentax D FA 
70-200/2.8 sells for about $1000 less than Nikon’s 70-200/2.8, and I would be 
willing to bet the image quality is just as good.
Paul

> On May 17, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Gonz  wrote:
> 
> I see your point Bill, and you arguments make a certain amount of
> sense as far as Ricoh's direction.  But where I diverge in my opinion
> is the survival part.  Granted there will always be that cadre of
> Pentax die hards, but as you can see from the average age of pdml
> posters, its only going up, not down.  I.e. there is very little new
> Pentax "blood" coming in.  So someone who is just coming into the high
> end/pro side of photography will in all likelihood migrate to one of
> the big three i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony.  Well at least as 35mm is
> concerned.  I think medium format is a completely different beast and
> I wont even venture an opinion on that.  Then there is Leica, but they
> are also on a different league altogether when it comes to high end.
> So where does that leave Pentax?  With a reputation of a lower
> cost/amateur manufacturer, they will have a real hard time competing
> in the space with those big boys and all their resources.  The market
> is definitely shrinking, and it makes perfect sense to go after the
> only remaining market not eviscerated by phone cameras (though I've
> seen pros starting to move there too and even making full movies with
> them), but whether they will survive or not is a crap shoot.
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, Bill  wrote:
>> On 5/17/2018 8:33 AM, Gonz wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hmmm, I've been lusting over Fuji's stuff for a while now, maybe this
>>> is the push that I need.  On the other hand, I read something like
>>> this:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://petapixel.com/2018/05/17/ricohs-new-camera-sdks-open-the-door-to-3rd-party-apps/
>>> 
>>> Which I've been advocating for years now.  There are few things that
>>> can create more buzz and excitement than an active third party
>>> ecosystem that gives you applications and features Pentax/Ricoh could
>>> not dream of.  This is what made Apple the phone brand that it is,
>>> maybe this will revive the Pentax brand and allow it to survive.
>> 
>> 
>> I don't think there is much doubt that the Pentax brand will survive. What
>> is in doubt is if it will survive in such a way as to make it desirable for
>> entry level users. The road map is indicating all high end lenses, and as
>> the camera market is shrinking at a rather alarming rate, the high end of
>> the market is the safest place to be positioned.
>> The low end of the market is being eviscerated by the cell phone market. Low
>> end, low cost products have to sell in huge numbers to be profitable. Going
>> forwards, those sales numbers simply won't exist.
>> Witness Ford getting out of the sedan market, essentially abandoning the
>> entry level automobile market to Korean manufacturers as an example.
>> My guess is that the Pentax brand is going to pretty much abandon the
>> beginner market (the Ricoh brand may pick up traction there), and
>> concentrate on high end products that can be profitable at low volumes.
>> 
>> As much as forum users who think they know everything disagree because
>> Pentax isn't doing what they want (they must be stupid because of that), the
>> management at Ricoh is made up of some pretty smart cookies who walked into
>> the Pentax brand with their eyes open. We may not be seeing the development
>> speed we would like to see, but we are seeing an ongoing commitment and a
>> steady, albeit slow, pace of development.
>> 
>> bill
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> follow the directions.
> 
> 
> 
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> -- Photography takes an instant out of time, altering life by holding
> it still. Dorothea Lange
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

I see your point Bill, and you arguments make a certain amount of
sense as far as Ricoh's direction.  But where I diverge in my opinion
is the survival part.  Granted there will always be that cadre of
Pentax die hards, but as you can see from the average age of pdml
posters, its only going up, not down.  I.e. there is very little new
Pentax "blood" coming in.  So someone who is just coming into the high
end/pro side of photography will in all likelihood migrate to one of
the big three i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony.  Well at least as 35mm is
concerned.  I think medium format is a completely different beast and
I wont even venture an opinion on that.  Then there is Leica, but they
are also on a different league altogether when it comes to high end.
So where does that leave Pentax?  With a reputation of a lower
cost/amateur manufacturer, they will have a real hard time competing
in the space with those big boys and all their resources.  The market
is definitely shrinking, and it makes perfect sense to go after the
only remaining market not eviscerated by phone cameras (though I've
seen pros starting to move there too and even making full movies with
them), but whether they will survive or not is a crap shoot.


On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, Bill  wrote:
> On 5/17/2018 8:33 AM, Gonz wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm, I've been lusting over Fuji's stuff for a while now, maybe this
>> is the push that I need.  On the other hand, I read something like
>> this:
>>
>>
>> https://petapixel.com/2018/05/17/ricohs-new-camera-sdks-open-the-door-to-3rd-party-apps/
>>
>> Which I've been advocating for years now.  There are few things that
>> can create more buzz and excitement than an active third party
>> ecosystem that gives you applications and features Pentax/Ricoh could
>> not dream of.  This is what made Apple the phone brand that it is,
>> maybe this will revive the Pentax brand and allow it to survive.
>
>
> I don't think there is much doubt that the Pentax brand will survive. What
> is in doubt is if it will survive in such a way as to make it desirable for
> entry level users. The road map is indicating all high end lenses, and as
> the camera market is shrinking at a rather alarming rate, the high end of
> the market is the safest place to be positioned.
> The low end of the market is being eviscerated by the cell phone market. Low
> end, low cost products have to sell in huge numbers to be profitable. Going
> forwards, those sales numbers simply won't exist.
> Witness Ford getting out of the sedan market, essentially abandoning the
> entry level automobile market to Korean manufacturers as an example.
> My guess is that the Pentax brand is going to pretty much abandon the
> beginner market (the Ricoh brand may pick up traction there), and
> concentrate on high end products that can be profitable at low volumes.
>
> As much as forum users who think they know everything disagree because
> Pentax isn't doing what they want (they must be stupid because of that), the
> management at Ricoh is made up of some pretty smart cookies who walked into
> the Pentax brand with their eyes open. We may not be seeing the development
> speed we would like to see, but we are seeing an ongoing commitment and a
> steady, albeit slow, pace of development.
>
> bill
>
>
>
>
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> follow the directions.



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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Bill]

On 5/17/2018 8:33 AM, Gonz wrote:

Hmmm, I've been lusting over Fuji's stuff for a while now, maybe this
is the push that I need.  On the other hand, I read something like
this:

https://petapixel.com/2018/05/17/ricohs-new-camera-sdks-open-the-door-to-3rd-party-apps/

Which I've been advocating for years now.  There are few things that
can create more buzz and excitement than an active third party
ecosystem that gives you applications and features Pentax/Ricoh could
not dream of.  This is what made Apple the phone brand that it is,
maybe this will revive the Pentax brand and allow it to survive.


I don't think there is much doubt that the Pentax brand will survive. 
What is in doubt is if it will survive in such a way as to make it 
desirable for entry level users. The road map is indicating all high end 
lenses, and as the camera market is shrinking at a rather alarming rate, 
the high end of the market is the safest place to be positioned.
The low end of the market is being eviscerated by the cell phone market. 
Low end, low cost products have to sell in huge numbers to be 
profitable. Going forwards, those sales numbers simply won't exist.
Witness Ford getting out of the sedan market, essentially abandoning the 
entry level automobile market to Korean manufacturers as an example.
My guess is that the Pentax brand is going to pretty much abandon the 
beginner market (the Ricoh brand may pick up traction there), and 
concentrate on high end products that can be profitable at low volumes.


As much as forum users who think they know everything disagree because 
Pentax isn't doing what they want (they must be stupid because of that), 
the management at Ricoh is made up of some pretty smart cookies who 
walked into the Pentax brand with their eyes open. We may not be seeing 
the development speed we would like to see, but we are seeing an ongoing 
commitment and a steady, albeit slow, pace of development.


bill



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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

"Gonzosaurus"... I like that, sometimes I come into the office with a
bit of T-Rex attitude after a bad nites sleep...  everyone steers
clear..


On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:56 PM, Steve Cottrell  wrote:
> On 14/5/18, Gonz, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>Thanks for the insightful commentary.  Sounds bleak for the most part.
>>I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that the Pentax ship is
>>sinking and its time to board a new one.  Don't know which one
>>however, but it seems that mirrorless is taking over to some degree.
>>I would like to keep my best lenses if they are able to be mounted on
>>whatever new platform I move to without too much hassle, so that
>>remains to be explored.  If not, expect a butt load of lenses to be
>>offered to the gang here.
>
> Gonzosaurus - if you are serious, I would heavily recommend trying out Fuji 
> stuff - with the added advantage that your pentax lenses can fit with a 
> simple adapter.
>
> Beyond that, Olympus make some good kit, albeit Micro 4/3rds so the pentax 
> lenses will offer different angles of view, which is not necessarily a bad 
> thing
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and
> ||  (O)  |Live Broadcast News
> --
> _
>
>
>
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

Hmmm, I've been lusting over Fuji's stuff for a while now, maybe this
is the push that I need.  On the other hand, I read something like
this:

https://petapixel.com/2018/05/17/ricohs-new-camera-sdks-open-the-door-to-3rd-party-apps/

Which I've been advocating for years now.  There are few things that
can create more buzz and excitement than an active third party
ecosystem that gives you applications and features Pentax/Ricoh could
not dream of.  This is what made Apple the phone brand that it is,
maybe this will revive the Pentax brand and allow it to survive.


On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:25 PM, William Robb
 wrote:
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 2:57 PM Steve Cottrell  wrote:
>
>> On 14/5/18, Gonz, discombobulated, unleashed:
>>
>> >Thanks for the insightful commentary.  Sounds bleak for the most part.
>> >I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that the Pentax ship is
>> >sinking and its time to board a new one.  Don't know which one
>> >however, but it seems that mirrorless is taking over to some degree.
>> >I would like to keep my best lenses if they are able to be mounted on
>> >whatever new platform I move to without too much hassle, so that
>> >remains to be explored.  If not, expect a butt load of lenses to be
>> >offered to the gang here.
>>
>> Gonzosaurus - if you are serious, I would heavily recommend trying out
>> Fuji stuff - with the added advantage that your pentax lenses can fit with
>> a simple adapter.
>
>
> The Fujis are gorgeous. I handled an X-T2 and an X-H1 as well. My major
> complaint with the viewfinders seems to a great extent to have been
> resolved. They have put in an accelerated refresh rate mode that takes the
> refresh up to a hundred times per second. Apparently it swills battery
> life. The trade-off for a decent viewfinder seems to be short battery life.
>
> I have a cheap Chinese adapter for putting Pentax lenses onto my X-T1, it
> works well enough. I saw an adapter with an aperture ring on it for making
> control-free lenses work.
> Truthfully, the Fuji works better than the Pentax for pre control-free
> lenses. The Fuji does away with the green button kludge and turns the X-T1
> into a crop sensor Pentax LX.
>
> The K3II is probably as good a still camera as the X-T2 for the most part.
> Perhaps not as fast, but both are 24mp sensors. The X-H1 is still 24mp, but
> it looks like it has much better video. It is also quite large.
>
> The Fuji lenses are every bit as good as anything Pentax has on the market.
> The real lovelies are the 14/2.8, 23/1.4, 35/1.4 and the 56/1.2
> I would say that those 4 are must haves.
> And yes, I have them.
>
>>
>>
>> Beyond that, Olympus make some good kit, albeit Micro 4/3rds so the pentax
>> lenses will offer different angles of view, which is not necessarily a bad
>> thing
>>
>
> My late friend and mentor, Brian Schneider used an Olympus in the later
> years. He was a Pentax and Leica user when I met him in the mid 1970s. We
> sort of lost touch for a few years, and then reconnected in the mid 1980s.
> He went from Pentax to Nikon to Canon to Panasonic to Olympus from the mid
> 80s until the end. Much of my Pentax equipment came from him. I suppose in
> a roundabout way, the PDML can thank him for the infliction that is me. I
> would likely have not looked at the brand in 35mm had it not been for him
> and the fact I already had a 6x7 (also his recommendation) and liked it and
> it’s ponderous beastliness.
>
> Here:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/klatuu13/albums/with/72157642969810854
>
> If you care to look at some of his work. He went through a bit of an over
> the top HDR look for a while, but most of his work is pretty tasty.
>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>   Cotty
>>
>>
>>
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[William Robb]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 2:57 PM Steve Cottrell  wrote:

> On 14/5/18, Gonz, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >Thanks for the insightful commentary.  Sounds bleak for the most part.
> >I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that the Pentax ship is
> >sinking and its time to board a new one.  Don't know which one
> >however, but it seems that mirrorless is taking over to some degree.
> >I would like to keep my best lenses if they are able to be mounted on
> >whatever new platform I move to without too much hassle, so that
> >remains to be explored.  If not, expect a butt load of lenses to be
> >offered to the gang here.
>
> Gonzosaurus - if you are serious, I would heavily recommend trying out
> Fuji stuff - with the added advantage that your pentax lenses can fit with
> a simple adapter.


The Fujis are gorgeous. I handled an X-T2 and an X-H1 as well. My major
complaint with the viewfinders seems to a great extent to have been
resolved. They have put in an accelerated refresh rate mode that takes the
refresh up to a hundred times per second. Apparently it swills battery
life. The trade-off for a decent viewfinder seems to be short battery life.

I have a cheap Chinese adapter for putting Pentax lenses onto my X-T1, it
works well enough. I saw an adapter with an aperture ring on it for making
control-free lenses work.
Truthfully, the Fuji works better than the Pentax for pre control-free
lenses. The Fuji does away with the green button kludge and turns the X-T1
into a crop sensor Pentax LX.

The K3II is probably as good a still camera as the X-T2 for the most part.
Perhaps not as fast, but both are 24mp sensors. The X-H1 is still 24mp, but
it looks like it has much better video. It is also quite large.

The Fuji lenses are every bit as good as anything Pentax has on the market.
The real lovelies are the 14/2.8, 23/1.4, 35/1.4 and the 56/1.2
I would say that those 4 are must haves.
And yes, I have them.

>
>
> Beyond that, Olympus make some good kit, albeit Micro 4/3rds so the pentax
> lenses will offer different angles of view, which is not necessarily a bad
> thing
>

My late friend and mentor, Brian Schneider used an Olympus in the later
years. He was a Pentax and Leica user when I met him in the mid 1970s. We
sort of lost touch for a few years, and then reconnected in the mid 1980s.
He went from Pentax to Nikon to Canon to Panasonic to Olympus from the mid
80s until the end. Much of my Pentax equipment came from him. I suppose in
a roundabout way, the PDML can thank him for the infliction that is me. I
would likely have not looked at the brand in 35mm had it not been for him
and the fact I already had a 6x7 (also his recommendation) and liked it and
it’s ponderous beastliness.

Here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/klatuu13/albums/with/72157642969810854

If you care to look at some of his work. He went through a bit of an over
the top HDR look for a while, but most of his work is pretty tasty.

>
> --
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Cotty
>
>
>
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Steve Cottrell]

On 14/5/18, Gonz, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Thanks for the insightful commentary.  Sounds bleak for the most part.
>I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that the Pentax ship is
>sinking and its time to board a new one.  Don't know which one
>however, but it seems that mirrorless is taking over to some degree.
>I would like to keep my best lenses if they are able to be mounted on
>whatever new platform I move to without too much hassle, so that
>remains to be explored.  If not, expect a butt load of lenses to be
>offered to the gang here.

Gonzosaurus - if you are serious, I would heavily recommend trying out Fuji 
stuff - with the added advantage that your pentax lenses can fit with a simple 
adapter.

Beyond that, Olympus make some good kit, albeit Micro 4/3rds so the pentax 
lenses will offer different angles of view, which is not necessarily a bad 
thing

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and
||  (O)  |Live Broadcast News
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Rob Studdert]

They need to review their MF lens line-up as people are leaving the
645 line for the new boys on the block. I've now sold the majority of
my K-mount kit, it's quite refreshing not to constrained however my
new kit is quite limited in scope and will remain so for the
foreseeable future, it's doing what I need it to (and many of those
things Pentax kit simply can't at the moment).

On 15 May 2018 at 13:10, Bill  wrote:
> On 5/14/2018 3:22 PM, Gonz wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the insightful commentary.  Sounds bleak for the most part.
>> I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that the Pentax ship is
>> sinking and its time to board a new one.
>
>
> That's not the message I got. The message I got is that Ricoh is in it for
> the long haul with Pentax.
>
> Don't know which one
>>
>> however, but it seems that mirrorless is taking over to some degree.
>
>
> Mirrorless is definitely getting the hype, whether it's taking over is
> another story.
> I suppose TV took over from radio.
> At least it was supposed to.
>
>
> bill
>
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Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Bill]

On 5/14/2018 3:22 PM, Gonz wrote:

Thanks for the insightful commentary.  Sounds bleak for the most part.
I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that the Pentax ship is
sinking and its time to board a new one.  


That's not the message I got. The message I got is that Ricoh is in it 
for the long haul with Pentax.


Don't know which one

however, but it seems that mirrorless is taking over to some degree.


Mirrorless is definitely getting the hype, whether it's taking over is 
another story.

I suppose TV took over from radio.
At least it was supposed to.

bill

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Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Gonz]

Thanks for the insightful commentary.  Sounds bleak for the most part.
I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that the Pentax ship is
sinking and its time to board a new one.  Don't know which one
however, but it seems that mirrorless is taking over to some degree.
I would like to keep my best lenses if they are able to be mounted on
whatever new platform I move to without too much hassle, so that
remains to be explored.  If not, expect a butt load of lenses to be
offered to the gang here.

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Bill  wrote:
> The local pusher has their trade show running today and tomorrow.
> Being what as how there is some Pentax gear I am interested in at the
> moment, and having a few spare hours today, I found myself at their shop
> this afternoon.
> Things I have learned:
>
> I need to get out more. The last time I was there, they had Pentax
> gear on display. That would have been when I bought the K1, two years ago
> almost to the day.
> Today, nothing on display, and a corner of a shelf with a few boxes on it.
> Perhaps half a dozen items, no more than that, most appeared to be old stock
> as they were pre Ricoh graphics.
>
> Sad.
>
> The Pentax rep that I have cultivated a relationship over the past
> couple of decades retired last year, the new rep also looks after a
> marketing company called Gentec.
> He had no Pentax gear on display at all, but he had at least two
> dozen Sigma lenses. He did pull a K70 out of a bag to let me handle, it had
> a 55-300 lens mounted to it. He called it a PLM, which must stand for
> "Plucky Little Motor". It focused quickly, accurately and silently.
> What he didn't have was a K1II. He was able to speak to the product, but not
> show it.
>
> Again, very disappointing.
>
> He is aware that Pentax needs to get equipment onto dealer shelves
> again, but he feels this is not going to be a fast process, at least not in
> my neck of the woods.
> My pusher can get anything, but come back next week to pick it up
> please and thank you.
> Things of interest:
> I no longer have an "in" with Pentax. The chummy days are over and I
> can no longer access new or soon to be released gear as I was able to in the
> past.
> No, I won't be able to do the direct comparison between the K1 and
> K1II unless I buy a new camera. Ricoh doesn't do that for customers, or at
> least not for this one. If your name isn't Kerrick James, you are just
> another punter with a credit card.
>
> Sorry.
>
> We discussed the changes from the K1 to the K1II. For practical
> purposes there are three. The signal processor is all about cleaning up high
> ISO signals. It should have little to no effect at low ISO, no matter what
> DPReview and Forums Neurotica say.
>
> Handheld pixel shift has been discussed ad nauseam on Forums
> Neurotica. What Ricoh is saying is that the photographer needs a pretty
> steady hand to make it work properly. The native shake caused by shutter
> bounce is enough to make it work.
>
> The biggie, and what should be of interest is that they have
> rewritten the AF algorithm, the result being that autofocus has been sped up
> considerably. Gone is the slow down as the lens approaches focus, gone is
> the check/double check routine that made the AF the most accurate in the
> business at the expense of speed (well, except for the K5 and it's colour
> failure assisted focus botch).
>
> The AF algorithm should put Pentax into the AF speed game, except
> for the limited number of focus points. Expect a new camera to address that.
>
> What I decided from the conversation is that there is no practical
> advantage for me regarding the MkII upgrade. I don't shoot at stupid high
> ISO very often, and when I do, I am willing to tolerate some noise. People
> who shoot in low light a lot (hello Larry) will benefit from the higher ISO
> capabilities. I shoot off a tripod most of the time, handheld pixel shift is
> of little benefit to me. I have exactly 4 auto focus lenses, one being a
> macro, I'm not too concerned about fast AF, but i appreciate accurate AF.
>
> Which leads me to new AF lenses. The 50/1.4 is delayed until August
> at the earliest from the sound of it, and when it finally arrives, will be
> priced in the Can$1.5K range. It will be similar in size to the Sigma 50/1.4
> Art lens, and will retail for a couple of hundred dollars more. No surprise
> regarding the price, Sigma has an economy of scale going for it as they make
> lenses with more than one mount. The rep did indicate that the lens will
> very much be worth the wait.
> I told him that when I heard of the delay I felt like a five year
> old who had been told Christmas had been put on hold for the foreseeable
> future. He said he would mention that to the powers that be at the Canadian
> office.
>
> It does appear that Pentax is abandoning the entry 

Re: The Dog & Pony Show

[Jan van Wijk]

On Fri, 11 May 2018 17:18:42 -0600 Bill wrote:
>
>   We discussed the changes from the K1 to the K1II. For practical 
> purposes there are three. The signal processor is all about cleaning up high 
> ISO signals. It should have little to no effect at low 
ISO, no matter what DPReview and Forums Neurotica say.
>
>   Handheld pixel shift has been discussed ad nauseam on Forums Neurotica. 
> What Ricoh is saying is that the photographer needs a pretty steady hand to 
> make it work properly. The native 
shake caused by shutter bounce is enough to make it work.
>
>   The biggie, and what should be of interest is that they have rewritten 
> the AF algorithm, the result being that autofocus has been sped up 
> considerably. Gone is the slow down as the lens 
approaches focus, gone is the check/double check routine that made the AF the 
most accurate in the business at the expense of speed (well, except for the K5 
and it's colour failure assisted focus 
botch).
>
>   The AF algorithm should put Pentax into the AF speed game, except for 
> the limited number of focus points. Expect a new camera to address that.

Sounds good, too bad they don't seem to be able to address that in the original 
K1 firmware ...

I will wait for the next iteration and skip the K1 II.

Thanks for the heads up!

Regards, JvW


--
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Flickr : jvw_pentax


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