Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[John Sessoms]

The phrase this calls to my mind is "A solution in search of a problem."

From: Larry Colen


On Jun 22, 2011, at 6:59 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

>> Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs
>>
>> On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea that for 
the price of a medium format camera, you could make a bracket that would securely 
hold four (or more) relatively inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) decent lenses, 
trigger them simultaneously, and use software to combine the images into one 
extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. This would have the 
advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same time, and for landscape photos, 
the parallax difference would likely be negligible.
>>
>> I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines... stitching 
images from multiple cameras, taken at the same time, rather than a single camera 
taken over a longer span of time.
>>
>>
>> * By identical I mean the same make and model, individual variation is 
inevitable.

>
> Ach, getting all those cameras to have a coincident focus setting,
> exposure setting, response curve, etc ... Getting the shutters to
> respond in sync ... you're going to slow down the picture making
> process by a bunch. Not a bad thing, but kind of a specialist
> endeavor.

It's definitely a specialist endeavor. Four K-5s with FA31s, or even used K20s 
or rebels with decent primes  would be cheaper than a 645D with equivalent 
glass, but not by much. Though it's the sort of thing that could be fun to do 
on a group outing, using several people's cameras.  If part of the goal is to 
expand dynamic range, then coincident exposure setting isn't an issue.


>
> Even simple stereo cameras with two lenses/shutter systems (Stereo
> Realist, Stereo Rolleis from the 1920s and 1930s) show how important
> the distance between the optical centers of the lens systems can be.
> We can do more with processing nowadays.

Image processing has come a fair way in the past 80 or so years.


>
> But it is an interesting thought exercise. I do remember seeing a
> video of a setup designed for some kind of capture effort that had a
> few dozen Canon 5Ds with identical lenses linked together for
> coordinated capture of a formula 1 car. The din of making the exposure
> was breathtaking.

Now that you mention it, I remember seeing that video. Can't seem to find it.


Combining responses to other posts, Ctein's suggestion is along very similar 
lines to my idea.  His would be cheaper for mass market, mine is cheaper for  
onesy twosy, especially if I could borrow cameras. The trick is getting 
software that would do a good job of combining the photos.

I'm familiar with the plenoptic concepts, and I think that thinking along the 
lines of that, or along the lines of Ctein's idea was where I started, but I 
realized that it would be easier to build a bracket to hold several cameras 
than it would to build custom photographic hardware. Apart from mirrorless 
camera sensors not yet being quite as favorable on the price/performance curve 
as a used DSLR, they could probably be packed tighter for less parallax. I'm 
sure that someone more proficient at math than I can figure out minimum 
shooting distance for each focal length at a particular pixel density were the 
parallax difference is less than a pixel.

The problem with multiple exposures separated in time, rather than space is 
that even on a relatively calm day, things move.  You couldn't use that 
technique for surf, rivers, or even trees in any sort of a wind.
My control system would be a bunch of electronic cable releases wired in 
parallel to a single switch.




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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Larry Colen]

On Jun 22, 2011, at 4:15 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

> What makes RAID work in computers is that the controller & interface doesn't 
> really increase the cost of building the array by very much.
> 
> How would that work with cameras?
> 
> What would be the cost of a mechanism to hold and control 4 identical camera 
> bodies, not to mention 4 identical lenses?

Assuming four cameras
If I were willing to set them up in a single line, rather than a rectangular 
array, the price of a chunk of aluminum and 4 1/4-20 bolts.

To control them, I'd buy 4 wired remotes, and then  wire all of the camera 
plugs in parallel with the same trigger switch.

> 
> And how would you assure that all 4 cameras were simultaneously focused the 
> same distance?

One way would be to focus one lens, note the value on the distance guide, then 
set the other four to the same point.  Or, using auto focus, select the same 
object to focus on.

> 

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[John Sessoms]

From: Mark Roberts


[Default] On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 22:02:51 -0400, Matthew Hunt
 wrote:


>On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Philip Northeast
> wrote:
>

>> Somebody has beaten you to it
>>
>> Hasselblad use sensor shift technology to create multiple images and move
>> the sensor slightly to increae the effective pixel count.
>>
>> 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/766903-REG/Hasselblad_70490520_H4D_200MS_Digital_Camera.html

>
>That's not simultaneous, which I think is the key element of Larry's 
suggestion.

Just guessing here, but I strongly suspect the Hasselblad fails the
"inexpensive" part of Larry's design brief.


He did preface it with "for the price of a medium format camera"


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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[John Francis]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 07:15:19PM -0400, John Sessoms wrote:
> 
> And how would you assure that all 4 cameras were simultaneously
> focused the same distance?

Auto-focus.

If all cameras were pointed in the same direction, they should
(in theory) all auto-focus on the same object.

Of course we all know the difference between theory and practice.


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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[John Sessoms]

What makes RAID work in computers is that the controller & interface 
doesn't really increase the cost of building the array by very much.


How would that work with cameras?

What would be the cost of a mechanism to hold and control 4 identical 
camera bodies, not to mention 4 identical lenses?


And how would you assure that all 4 cameras were simultaneously focused 
the same distance?




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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Matthew Hunt]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

> I'm sure that someone more proficient at math than I can figure out minimum 
> shooting distance for each focal length at a particular pixel density were 
> the parallax difference is less than a pixel.

Far. Let's suppose your shooting lens gives a horizontal field of view
(HFOV) of 1 radian (57.3 deg). For an APS-C sensor, that corresponds
to a ~22mm focal length.

With a 1 rad HFOV, a 1 pixel parallax shift (against an infinitely
distant background) will occur for an object that's at a distance
equal to the separation of the lenses, multiplied by the number of
horizontal pixels on the sensor (4928 pixels for the K-5). (*)

The body width of the K-5 is ~13 cm, so if you have tightly-packed
cameras, objects (13 cm)*(4928) or farther will show less than 1 px
parallax shift against a distant background. That's 640 meters, or 0.4
miles.

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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Larry Colen]

On Jun 22, 2011, at 6:59 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>> Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs
>> 
>> On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea that for 
>> the price of a medium format camera, you could make a bracket that would 
>> securely hold four (or more) relatively inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) 
>> decent lenses, trigger them simultaneously, and use software to combine the 
>> images into one extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. 
>> This would have the advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same 
>> time, and for landscape photos, the parallax difference would likely be 
>> negligible.
>> 
>> I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines... stitching 
>> images from multiple cameras, taken at the same time, rather than a single 
>> camera taken over a longer span of time.
>> 
>> 
>> * By identical I mean the same make and model, individual variation is 
>> inevitable.
> 
> Ach, getting all those cameras to have a coincident focus setting,
> exposure setting, response curve, etc ... Getting the shutters to
> respond in sync ... you're going to slow down the picture making
> process by a bunch. Not a bad thing, but kind of a specialist
> endeavor.

It's definitely a specialist endeavor. Four K-5s with FA31s, or even used K20s 
or rebels with decent primes  would be cheaper than a 645D with equivalent 
glass, but not by much. Though it's the sort of thing that could be fun to do 
on a group outing, using several people's cameras.  If part of the goal is to 
expand dynamic range, then coincident exposure setting isn't an issue.

> 
> Even simple stereo cameras with two lenses/shutter systems (Stereo
> Realist, Stereo Rolleis from the 1920s and 1930s) show how important
> the distance between the optical centers of the lens systems can be.
> We can do more with processing nowadays.

Image processing has come a fair way in the past 80 or so years.

> 
> But it is an interesting thought exercise. I do remember seeing a
> video of a setup designed for some kind of capture effort that had a
> few dozen Canon 5Ds with identical lenses linked together for
> coordinated capture of a formula 1 car. The din of making the exposure
> was breathtaking.

Now that you mention it, I remember seeing that video. Can't seem to find it.


Combining responses to other posts, Ctein's suggestion is along very similar 
lines to my idea.  His would be cheaper for mass market, mine is cheaper for  
onesy twosy, especially if I could borrow cameras. The trick is getting 
software that would do a good job of combining the photos.

I'm familiar with the plenoptic concepts, and I think that thinking along the 
lines of that, or along the lines of Ctein's idea was where I started, but I 
realized that it would be easier to build a bracket to hold several cameras 
than it would to build custom photographic hardware. Apart from mirrorless 
camera sensors not yet being quite as favorable on the price/performance curve 
as a used DSLR, they could probably be packed tighter for less parallax. I'm 
sure that someone more proficient at math than I can figure out minimum 
shooting distance for each focal length at a particular pixel density were the 
parallax difference is less than a pixel.

The problem with multiple exposures separated in time, rather than space is 
that even on a relatively calm day, things move.  You couldn't use that 
technique for surf, rivers, or even trees in any sort of a wind. 
My control system would be a bunch of electronic cable releases wired in 
parallel to a single switch.


--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs
>
> On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea that for 
> the price of a medium format camera, you could make a bracket that would 
> securely hold four (or more) relatively inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) 
> decent lenses, trigger them simultaneously, and use software to combine the 
> images into one extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. This 
> would have the advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same time, 
> and for landscape photos, the parallax difference would likely be negligible.
>
> I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines... stitching 
> images from multiple cameras, taken at the same time, rather than a single 
> camera taken over a longer span of time.
>
>
> * By identical I mean the same make and model, individual variation is 
> inevitable.

Ach, getting all those cameras to have a coincident focus setting,
exposure setting, response curve, etc ... Getting the shutters to
respond in sync ... you're going to slow down the picture making
process by a bunch. Not a bad thing, but kind of a specialist
endeavor.

Even simple stereo cameras with two lenses/shutter systems (Stereo
Realist, Stereo Rolleis from the 1920s and 1930s) show how important
the distance between the optical centers of the lens systems can be.
We can do more with processing nowadays.

But it is an interesting thought exercise. I do remember seeing a
video of a setup designed for some kind of capture effort that had a
few dozen Canon 5Ds with identical lenses linked together for
coordinated capture of a formula 1 car. The din of making the exposure
was breathtaking.
-- 
Godfrey
  godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Boris Liberman]

On 6/22/2011 15:53, Mark Roberts wrote:

Don't ever change, Larry.


Do I sense a strong (plain) C Force here?

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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Mark Roberts]

[Default] On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 22:02:51 -0400, Matthew Hunt
 wrote:

>On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Philip Northeast
> wrote:
>
>> Somebody has beaten you to it
>>
>> Hasselblad use sensor shift technology to create multiple images and move
>> the sensor slightly to increae the effective pixel count.
>>
>> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/766903-REG/Hasselblad_70490520_H4D_200MS_Digital_Camera.html
>
>That's not simultaneous, which I think is the key element of Larry's 
>suggestion.

Just guessing here, but I strongly suspect the Hasselblad fails the
"inexpensive" part of Larry's design brief.


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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Mark Roberts]

[Default] On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:20:56 -0700, Larry Colen
 wrote:

>Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs


Don't ever change, Larry. If you didn't exist we'd have to invent you.



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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Boris Liberman]

On 6/22/2011 01:20, Larry Colen wrote:

Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs

On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea
that for the price of a medium format camera, you could make a
bracket that would securely hold four (or more) relatively
inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) decent lenses, trigger them
simultaneously, and use software to combine the images into one
extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. This would
have the advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same time,
and for landscape photos, the parallax difference would likely be
negligible.

I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines...
stitching images from multiple cameras, taken at the same time,
rather than a single camera taken over a longer span of time.


Negligible or not, but a difference between outermost cameras 
(left/right or top/bottom) may be not insignificant. In fact, it would 
depend on a subject matter. Shooting macro, e.g. in this arrangement can 
be a real pain in the rear for registration in post processing. But then 
again, if you have RAID, you ought to have RAID Controller and RAID 
Driver - much code to write.


Another idea, somewhat similar to yours in general spirit may be to make 
a device that will control camera rotation and then you can take several 
shots in rapid burst rotation a camera ever so little between the 
shots... Kind of semi-instant panoramic shot.


Boris

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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Mark Cassino]

It's only one camera but what about a gigapan system -

http://www.gigapansystems.com/

I suppose the time issue woudl be something, but the images I have looked at 
appear to be pretty detailed...

MCC



- Original Message 
From: Larry Colen 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 6:20:56 PM
Subject: Today's crazy idea: RAID

Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs

On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea that for the 
price of a medium format camera, you could make a bracket that would securely 
hold four (or more) relatively inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) decent 
lenses, trigger them simultaneously, and use software to combine the images 
into 
one extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. This would have 
the 
advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same time, and for landscape 
photos, the parallax difference would likely be negligible.

I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines... stitching images 
from multiple cameras, taken at the same time, rather than a single camera 
taken 
over a longer span of time.


* By identical I mean the same make and model, individual variation is 
inevitable.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[John Francis]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 10:02:51PM -0400, Matthew Hunt wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Philip Northeast
>  wrote:
> 
> > Somebody has beaten you to it
> >
> > Hasselblad use sensor shift technology to create multiple images and move
> > the sensor slightly to increae the effective pixel count.
> >
> > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/766903-REG/Hasselblad_70490520_H4D_200MS_Digital_Camera.html
> 
> That's not simultaneous, which I think is the key element of Larry's 
> suggestion.
> 
> On Mike Johnston's blog, Ctein has proposed using arrays of crappy
> (think cellphone) cameras embedded in an iPad-like tablet:
> 
> http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/01/tablet-view-camera.html

On a somewhat smaller scale, take a look at the plenoptic cameras
Pat Hanrahan et al. at Stanford are playing with:

  


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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Philip Northeast]

True,

but the Hasselblad effort does show the software required to stitch the 
multiple images together does work, so the idea is feasible



On 22/06/11 12:02 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote:

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Philip Northeast
  wrote:


Somebody has beaten you to it

Hasselblad use sensor shift technology to create multiple images and move
the sensor slightly to increae the effective pixel count.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/766903-REG/Hasselblad_70490520_H4D_200MS_Digital_Camera.html


That's not simultaneous, which I think is the key element of Larry's suggestion.

On Mike Johnston's blog, Ctein has proposed using arrays of crappy
(think cellphone) cameras embedded in an iPad-like tablet:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/01/tablet-view-camera.html




--
Philip Northeast

www.aviewfinderdakly.com.au

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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Matthew Hunt]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Philip Northeast
 wrote:

> Somebody has beaten you to it
>
> Hasselblad use sensor shift technology to create multiple images and move
> the sensor slightly to increae the effective pixel count.
>
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/766903-REG/Hasselblad_70490520_H4D_200MS_Digital_Camera.html

That's not simultaneous, which I think is the key element of Larry's suggestion.

On Mike Johnston's blog, Ctein has proposed using arrays of crappy
(think cellphone) cameras embedded in an iPad-like tablet:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/01/tablet-view-camera.html

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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[Philip Northeast]

Somebody has beaten you to it


Hasselblad use sensor shift technology to create multiple images and 
move the sensor slightly to increae the effective pixel count.



http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/766903-REG/Hasselblad_70490520_H4D_200MS_Digital_Camera.html


--
Philip Northeast

www.aviewfinderdakly.com.au

On 22/06/11 8:20 AM, Larry Colen wrote:

Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs

On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea that for the 
price of a medium format camera, you could make a bracket that would securely 
hold four (or more) relatively inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) decent 
lenses, trigger them simultaneously, and use software to combine the images 
into one extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. This would 
have the advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same time, and for 
landscape photos, the parallax difference would likely be negligible.

I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines... stitching images 
from multiple cameras, taken at the same time, rather than a single camera 
taken over a longer span of time.


* By identical I mean the same make and model, individual variation is 
inevitable.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est










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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[drd1135]

That's Ricoh, not Rich. 

-Original Message-
From: Larry Colen 
Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:20:56 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Today's crazy idea: RAID

Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs

On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea that for the 
price of a medium format camera, you could make a bracket that would securely 
hold four (or more) relatively inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) decent 
lenses, trigger them simultaneously, and use software to combine the images 
into one extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. This would 
have the advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same time, and for 
landscape photos, the parallax difference would likely be negligible.

I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines... stitching images 
from multiple cameras, taken at the same time, rather than a single camera 
taken over a longer span of time.


* By identical I mean the same make and model, individual variation is 
inevitable.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: Today's crazy idea: RAID

[drd1135]

You would need to wear your storm trooper helmet when you use it :-p 

Actually, if you made tiny lens/sensor units (like the Rich camera) you could 
make a small array of them. I wonder if the economics would work out?
-Original Message-
From: Larry Colen 
Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:20:56 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Today's crazy idea: RAID

Redundant Array of Inexpensive DSLRs

On my drive home from San Luis Obispo today, I had the crazy idea that for the 
price of a medium format camera, you could make a bracket that would securely 
hold four (or more) relatively inexpensive DSLRs, with identical(*) decent 
lenses, trigger them simultaneously, and use software to combine the images 
into one extremely high resolution, or high dynamic range, image. This would 
have the advantage of all of the shots being taken at the same time, and for 
landscape photos, the parallax difference would likely be negligible.

I'm curious of any one knows of any work along  these lines... stitching images 
from multiple cameras, taken at the same time, rather than a single camera 
taken over a longer span of time.


* By identical I mean the same make and model, individual variation is 
inevitable.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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