deskilling [was unsubscribing...]
I wrote:this is what Braverman described when he wrote about deskilling. The skills of the older workers are collected, codified, and controlled by management, making the employees more interchangeable. DMS writes: Yeah, that was the theory all right. Doesn't quite work out in practice. When we were installing the new operations control center, I remember meeting with the lead consultant on the project (former British Rail employee if you can believe it. The only European railroad, at that time, with worse passenger service than the US.). He told me that I wasn't going to be making all those decisions anymore-- the computer will do it, and much faster, smoother, and quieter [sic! apparently Brit Rail put a high value on quiet] than you can. Right I said. Didn't happen, except maybe for the quiet part. The real point to the introduction of the advanced technology is simple cost control-- closing X number of train control stations with X number of personnel and combining the remaining into a central office with fewer people. Ergo the operating cost is supposed to be reduced. cost containment is part of deskilling (the switch from worker-controlled (craft) skills to readily-supplied skills). In addition, management wants to _control_ the ornery skilled craft workers. (readily supplied means that the employer supplies them via on-the-job training or the workers get them at community colleges, etc.) OK, tough to argue with that-- but the capital cost goes right through the roof, and while the operating personnel drop, maintenance costs for the systems increase. along with such things as competition-driven investment, deskilling encourages increasing capital intensity (a higher technical composition of capital), which may or may not hurt profitability. It's part of the contradictions of capitalism. Are the introductions of these technologies the right thing to do? Absolutely. The problem is the technologies are not properly supported or utilized, and instead, regarded as a substitute a thing unto itself. Which is one more manifestation of the conflict between the means and relations of production. if the workers controlled the process, it would be more rational, at least if it were part of a democratically-controlled central-planning scheme. (can of worms alert! can of worms alert!) Jim D.
Re: unsubscribing...
paul phillips wrote: Perhaps you could post all the standard commands for unsubbing, or postponing mail, and for resubbing etc. since many of us will be wanting to postpone or unsub due to summer and conference travel, etc. and given our state of academic dementia, our memories of how to do that are somewhat diminished :-[ even if mp posts these instructions, its doubtful all of you will remember it two months from now or look for it in the archives. then he will have to post the instructions once a month. that will cause members to start ignoring those messages altogether. and on and on it goes. there is a simple alternative: send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the line (in the body of the message): HELP you will be sent a response with all sorts of useful info, including info on how you can unsub temporarily, etc, or pointers to such info. or in more impolite terms: RTFM!!! ;-) --ravi (for non-geeks: RTFM = read the fucking manual. to joanna: i know you posted the original request; not flaming you here!).
Re: unsubscribing...
ravi writes: RTFM = read the fucking manual. so what do we do when Microsoft and similar companies don't provide a manual? I know, go buy one: there's a series of books titled the missing manual for all sorts of programs. That means that the cost of software and hardware isn't as low as it seems, since the cost of buying one (or the time money cost of printing a manual given in pdf form that's much less convenient than an actual book) must be included. Further, with programs and hardware changing rapidly, the manual is often obsolete, especially if it's produced by another company (as with the missing manual series). In the meantime, my wife's cell phone broke. So she got a new one (smartly avoiding one with a camera and similar junk). But in the Microsoft tradition, the manual is useless, with not only 1/3 of the pages dedicated to safety issues (don't drive while phoning!) but sketchy coverage of how to use the phone. I'd bet that 95 percent of users don't use all of the capabilities of their hardware software. If so, much of these capabilities are simply marketing matters. Jim Devine
Re: unsubscribing...
ravi wrote: there is a simple alternative: send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the line (in the body of the message): HELP here's what i found from the above. you can temporarily suspend your membership by sending email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the line (in the message body): set pen-l nomail and then when you are ready to resume getting mail, send another message with the line: set pen-l mail (you can do this later step on a *nix box, assuming you want to restart mail on the the 25th of april, with the simple command: echo 'echo set pen-l mail | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]' | at 1:00am 4/25/2004 simple, eh?) YMMV: a password may be required for both commands. check it out. the *nix command assumes correct mail setup on your host. --ravi
Re: unsubscribing...
Further, I make a habit of never buying a manual from the company that should have provided one. I think other people should follow this practice. Microsoft either should give you a manual or make the program easier to use. -- JD -Original Message- From: Devine, James Sent: Fri 4/9/2004 8:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [PEN-L] unsubscribing... ravi writes: RTFM = read the fucking manual. so what do we do when Microsoft and similar companies don't provide a manual? I know, go buy one: there's a series of books titled the missing manual for all sorts of programs. That means that the cost of software and hardware isn't as low as it seems, since the cost of buying one (or the time money cost of printing a manual given in pdf form that's much less convenient than an actual book) must be included. Further, with programs and hardware changing rapidly, the manual is often obsolete, especially if it's produced by another company (as with the missing manual series). In the meantime, my wife's cell phone broke. So she got a new one (smartly avoiding one with a camera and similar junk). But in the Microsoft tradition, the manual is useless, with not only 1/3 of the pages dedicated to safety issues (don't drive while phoning!) but sketchy coverage of how to use the phone. I'd bet that 95 percent of users don't use all of the capabilities of their hardware software. If so, much of these capabilities are simply marketing matters. Jim Devine
Re: unsubscribing...
Devine, James wrote: ravi writes: RTFM = read the fucking manual. so what do we do when Microsoft and similar companies don't provide a manual? your critique of HW/SW is quite correct. but in the limited sense of interacting with the list management software, the manual is fairly decent and useful. i guess manuals either tend to be too trivial (cute graphics and solutions to trivial problems) or go the other extreme and become reference manuals i.e., if i already know about motherboard jumpers then they will tell me what jumpers to set to bring up my second ATAPI interface drive, or some such. --ravi
Re: unsubscribing...
I'd bet that 95 percent of users don't use all of the capabilities of their hardware software. If so, much of these capabilities are simply marketing matters. Jim Devine __ That's why they call it bells and whistles. Of course, you could spend hours and hours learning all the functions of all the digital equipment you are urged to buy, but even then, you wouldn't be using them-- unless of course you had nothing to do, and thus no real need for the equipment. An interesting facet of this issue about technology and use is technology and need... how technology creates a dependence. For example, for years in railroad operations we lacked computer assisted dispatching, visual real-time displays of train movements, and the extensive databases that can tell you everything about a scheduled train-- crew, cars, times at every station, etc. None of this material in the database is new information- it's always been available, and necessary for train operations. Except we always used pencil and paper to figure out what to do when operations deviated from plan (which is everyday). We used to say that every trainmaster keeps a picture of his/her yards and territory in his/her head and know where every train should be at any time. Every good train dispatcher has a film running continuously in his/her head of main track operations and where the trains were. Now? Now you can tell the older railroad operating personnel from the younger and not by age, style of dress, or vocabulary. Everytime there's a problem, the experienced people take out a pen and a piece of paper and start writing down alternate train operations and service patterns, based on those internal pictures, internal timetables, based on the homework. And the younger? It's F3 and F5 and then F7 on the keyboard, and by the time they access the information from the databases, the alternate plan has already been established by us dinosaurs. The fact is that the god in the machine god is the machine aura surronding digital technology can be and often is a limit performance. John Henry is a pencil drivin' man, lord lord. dms
Re: unsubscribing...
this is what Braverman described when he wrote about deskilling. The skills of the older workers are collected, codified, and controlled by management, making the employees more interchangeable. JD --- An interesting facet of this issue about technology and use is technology and need... how technology creates a dependence. For example, for years in railroad operations we lacked computer assisted dispatching, visual real-time displays of train movements, and the extensive databases that can tell you everything about a scheduled train-- crew, cars, times at every station, etc. None of this material in the database is new information- it's always been available, and necessary for train operations. Except we always used pencil and paper to figure out what to do when operations deviated from plan (which is everyday). We used to say that every trainmaster keeps a picture of his/her yards and territory in his/her head and know where every train should be at any time. Every good train dispatcher has a film running continuously in his/her head of main track operations and where the trains were. Now? Now you can tell the older railroad operating personnel from the younger and not by age, style of dress, or vocabulary. Everytime there's a problem, the experienced people take out a pen and a piece of paper and start writing down alternate train operations and service patterns, based on those internal pictures, internal timetables, based on the homework. And the younger? It's F3 and F5 and then F7 on the keyboard, and by the time they access the information from the databases, the alternate plan has already been established by us dinosaurs. The fact is that the god in the machine god is the machine aura surronding digital technology can be and often is a limit performance. John Henry is a pencil drivin' man, lord lord. dms
Re: unsubscribing...
this is what Braverman described when he wrote about deskilling. The skills of the older workers are collected, codified, and controlled by management, making the employees more interchangeable. JD _ Yeah, that was the theory all right. Doesn't quite work out in practice. When we were installing the new operations control center, I remember meeting with the lead consultant on the project (former British Rail employee if you can believe it. The only European railroad, at that time, with worse passenger service than the US.). He told me that I wasn't going to be making all those decisions anymore-- the computer will do it, and much faster, smoother, and quieter [sic! apparently Brit Rail put a high value on quiet] than you can. Right I said. Didn't happen, except maybe for the quiet part. The real point to the introduction of the advanced technology is simple cost control-- closing X number of train control stations with X number of personnel and combining the remaining into a central office with fewer people. Ergo the operating cost is supposed to be reduced. OK, tough to argue with that-- but the capital cost goes right through the roof, and while the operating personnel drop, maintenance costs for the systems increase. Are the introductions of these technologies the right thing to do? Absolutely. The problem is the technologies are not properly supported or utilized, and instead, regarded as a substitute a thing unto itself. Which is one more manifestation of the conflict between the means and relations of production. dms
Re: unsubscribing...
In a message dated 4/9/2004 1:01:20 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The real point to the introduction of the advanced technology is simplecost control-- closing X number of train control stations with X numberof personnel and combining the remaining into a central office with fewerpeople. Ergo the operating cost is supposed to be reduced. OK, toughto argue with that-- but the capital cost goes right through the roof, andwhile the operating personnel drop, maintenance costs for the systemsincrease. Comment Bingo! The increase in the mass - density, of dead labor. The reduction of real wages in the world total social capital is an ironlaw, that often cannot be witnessed directly. This is so because for example - if the price and value of agricultural produce falls faster than commoditiesfrom the industrial sector, the working of the law of value is eclipsed - not visible, to the naked eye. In the world of value this is value being driven in the direction of zero. In the world of flesh and blood labor power, this is called "the race to the bottom." Individuals and class sectors hit bottom in different ways and at different times at different velocities. After about 15 years I learnt that all industrial machinery run in the same direction - that is on the basis of very simple laws or a law system. At this stage of the evolution of the technological regime, grafting computers, advance robotics and digitalized process on the existing pathways of the industrial process does not change the underlying laws of electromechanical production. Cutting, drilling, slicing and dicing still takes place and the inevitable "transfer bar" or mechanism to move a part from one station to the next. Nevertheless the process is being revolutionized based not simply on the existing technological capability but profit motive, or rather property motive. The incremental increase in the density of dead labor is an absolute law of production. And yes, it does make one quiet. There are less people to talk to. Are the introductions of these technologies the right thing to do? Absolutely.The problem is the technologies are not properly supported or utilized, andinstead, regarded as a substitute "a thing unto itself." Which is one moremanifestation of the conflict between the means and relations of production.dms Hello! Here is the property question within the mode of production. Karl Marx 101. The mode of production in material life comes into conflict with the existing social relations of production, with the property relations within. Hgggh . . .the piece on oil was on target. Oil - petroleum, will most certainly run out and exists in a finite quality, because the earth itself is finite. The life of earth shall run out as is the case with our sun. The barrier we are hitting is economic - property, and the way private property has made us stupid. 750 million vehicles on the earth is stupid and the direct results of private property - the quest for money. I did read Rifkin's "Hydrogen Economy" and if he is not being paid by the oil companies he is missing a paycheck. He positions the question of the energy infrastructure on the basis of bourgeois property. Next, Rifkin will write a book on the "carrying capacity of the earth" and why everyone needs to die except him and his family. Those seriously concerned about overpo>instead, regarded as a substitute "a thing unto itself." Which is one moremanifestation of the conflict between the means and relations of production.dms Hello! Here is the property question within the mode of production. Karl Marx 101. The mode of production in material life comes into conflict with the existing social relations of production, with the property relations within. Hgggh . . .the piece on oil was on target. Oil - petroleum, will most certainly run out and exists in a finite quality, because the earth itself is finite. The life of earth shall run out as is the case with our sun. The barrier we are hitting is economic - property, and the way private property has made us stupid. 750 million vehicles on the earth is stupid and the direct results of private property - the quest for money. I did read Rifkin's "Hydrogen Economy" and if he is not being paid by the oil companies he is missing a paycheck. He positions the question of the energy infrastructure on the basis of bourgeois property. Next, Rifkin will write a book on the "carrying capacity of the earth" and why everyone needs to die except him and his family. Those seriously concerned about overpopulation should do the right thing and kill themselves and their family and help solve this problem. A deeper question is what determines and regulates family size and population growth in the first place? Everyone knows how babies are made. What are the several factors involved in population growth? Melvin P.
Re: unsubscribing...
This is so because for example - if the price and value of agricultural produce falls faster than commodities from the industrial sector, the working of the law of value is eclipsed - not visible, to the naked eye. Just one point then I have to go back to outhinking the computers for the PM rush hour... Brother Melvin has hit on something that I think is really, really important. Working on an analysis of agriculture in the US and its links to post WW2 economic growth/non-growth I found exactly that, what Brother Melvin describes taking place. Now it has been described by various names, and explored as the scissors crisis, but the significance of it, again, is as Melvin describes and it show how the agriculture, in its capitalist development, manifests the accumulation of dead labor as a fall in relative value, and thus is actually manifesting the inability of capital to reproduce itself, to serve as its own market, quickly enough-- in short, I think the scissors crisis is the equivalent of the falling rate of profit. dms
unsubscribing...
Unsubcribing for a week while in NYC. Michael? Can you please do that? I don't know how. Thanks, Joanna
Re: unsubscribing...
Michael, Perhaps you could post all the standard commands for unsubbing, or postponing mail, and for resubbing etc. since many of us will be wanting to postpone or unsub due to summer and conference travel, etc. and given our state of academic dementia, our memories of how to do that are somewhat diminished :-[ Paul Paul Phillips, Economics, University of Manitoba joanna bujes wrote: Unsubcribing for a week while in NYC. Michael? Can you please do that? I don't know how. Thanks, Joanna
Re: Unsubscribing---thanks...
Well, I'm sad that you're unsubscribing. We might spar over particular issues, but I don't forget whose side you're on. Have a good one, J.
Re: Unsubscribing---thanks...
Jurriaan Bendien wrote: Well, I'm sad that you're unsubscribing. We might spar over particular issues, but I don't forget whose side you're on. You accuse me of being an FBI agent and then you say that you don't forget whose side I'm on??? You confuse me. I like your postings; I learn a lot from them. But you also include many personal references in them, and then when I address stuff you bring up, you get upset and willfully misinterpret what I say. But, basically, PEN-L is economics list. It doesn't seem that people are comfortable with subjects that veer away from economics. It doesn't even seem that people are comfortable with anyone questioning the basic terms and assumptions of the trade, so I feel that I am more of an annoyance than a good member of this list. If anyone is interested in reading what I have to say or engaging in email discussions with me, I can be found on the LBOster list: see http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/lbo-talk.html All the best, Joanna
Re: Unsubscribing---thanks...
joanna bujes wrote: You accuse me of being an FBI agent and then you say that you don't forget whose side I'm on??? what's up with all these FBI agent accusations anyway? LNP just posted the same in response to someone else. whatever happened to old-fashioned insults like m*rf*a, you despicable scoundrel, etc? ;-) But, basically, PEN-L is economics list. It doesn't seem that people are comfortable with subjects that veer away from economics. It doesn't even seem that people are comfortable with anyone questioning the basic terms and assumptions of the trade, so I feel that I am more of an annoyance than a good member of this list. why, did you get flamed for a non-eco post? i make quite a few of them (though trying to keep the count down) and haven't been rebuked thus far. i enjoy reading your posts on the list and i hope you stay on. if not, will continue to bother you over personal email ;-). non-eco content: WMD Hunt: Find The Real Weapons of Mass Destruction http://www.findthoseweapons.com/ --ravi
Re: Unsubscribing---thanks...
Hi Joanna, You accuse me of being an FBI agent and then you say that you don't forget whose side I'm on??? I didn't accuse you of being an FBI agent at all, so that is mistake number one. Specifically, what I wrote to you offlist, responding to your own comment to me in person that you had worked for the FBI in the past, was as follows: quote: Personally I don't have any problem with you having been an FBI agent, but other people, including the FBI, can get funny ideas, that's all. I'm sure the FBI teaches some useful skills, and, of course, you could also look at it from the point of view of what can the FBI do for me. I didn't think you were a CIA agent. Mainly, the CIA tends to seek to obtain information and intervene in areas which are not publicly accessible. If there's no secret, there's no secret, what they're concerned with is more things which are hidden. Personally, I am in favour of a world without spies, but it's a bit utopian. unquote. You confuse me. I like your postings; I learn a lot from them. But you also include many personal references in them, and then when I address stuff you bring up, you get upset and willfully misinterpret what I say. Well thanks. I didn't get upset, merely irritated by the fact, that if you believe you have been misinterpreted, that you don't state how you have been misinterpreted and slither around. What I objected to was your statement that Using thought to construct a bridge or calculate the progress of an epidemic is appropriate. Using thought to choose a lover or determine how we interact with our friends or our children is not. I expressed my objection quite adequately, I would think. If you then talk about willful misinterpretation and impute to me being upset, you are just trying to shift the blame to me, but it won't work. There is a thought behind what I wrote. The thoughtless hedonism of Americans results in an astronomical aggregate debt level, which dwarfs the third world debt and will brake the world economy for decades. Maybe they don't understand the link to which I refer, but in reality hedonism for some means death for others, in fact the title for Eric Toussaint's book on the debt crisis is appriopriately called Your money or you life. I have nothing against pleasure, far from it, but pleasure which means death and destruction for others is not something I want to support knowingly. I prefer to think about pleasures rather than get involved in brainless pleasure. I was under the impression in the past that you shared that view. But, basically, PEN-L is economics list. It doesn't seem that people are comfortable with subjects that veer away from economics. It doesn't even seem that people are comfortable with anyone questioning the basic terms and assumptions of the trade, so I feel that I am more of an annoyance than a good member of this list. Yes, but the aegis of PEN-L is a bit wider than ordinary economics, because at PEN-L acknowledges that economics is about people, not simply about how much money you can haggle from others. Let's face it, porn is a multimillion dollar business and a cultural phenomenon, it's quite legitimate to talk about it. I don't normally write personal stuff, but if a personal anecdote is appropriate to make a point, I am happy to do so. All the best, Jurriaan
Re: Unsubscribing---thanks...
Joanna, Hope I didn't make things worse with my silly posting on Monday. I read PEN-L mail on the archives, from new to old. That's not good -- I know. I replied to your note on Question re basics without knowing the context or what the thread was about. Sorry. No wonder Ralph felt disappointed. Best, Julio _ Consigue aquí las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en América Latina y USA: http://latino.msn.com/empleos
Re: Unsubscribing---thanks...
No, no. I think I'm just getting thin-skinned and need a break. Thanks for the kind words. Best, Joanna Julio Huato wrote: Joanna, Hope I didn't make things worse with my silly posting on Monday. I read PEN-L mail on the archives, from new to old. That's not good -- I know. I replied to your note on Question re basics without knowing the context or what the thread was about. Sorry. No wonder Ralph felt disappointed. Best, Julio _ Consigue aquí las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en América Latina y USA: http://latino.msn.com/empleos
Unsubscribing---thanks...
Dear Michael, Please unsubscribe me. Take care everyone, Joanna
unsubscribing for the holiday season
lots to read and do. everyone please have a Happy and a Merry! moderator: what are the magic words to unsub? norm
Re: unsubscribing for the holiday season
I am sending this to the entire list. Just send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsub pen-l On Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 07:28:31AM -0500, Mikalac Norman S NSSC wrote: lots to read and do. everyone please have a Happy and a Merry! moderator: what are the magic words to unsub? norm -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: unsubscribing for the holiday season
note: the numerous "communist" books arriving at my door have alarmed my new Nepalese wife who has visions of the police coming to arrest me soon. i tried to explain to her how the system works around here . but . i'll be back soon after completing the design for my latest rocket for persuading recalcitrant intellectuals and peasants that neopostmodernanalyticimperialisticglobalizedcapitalism must be accepted by all who wish to share unequally in its "benefits". 10-4. norm -Original Message- From: Michael Perelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 11:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:6012] Re: unsubscribing for the holiday season I am sending this to the entire list. Just send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsub pen-l On Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 07:28:31AM -0500, Mikalac Norman S NSSC wrote: lots to read and do. everyone please have a Happy and a Merry! moderator: what are the magic words to unsub? norm -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: unsubscribing
HELP
Re: Re: unsubscribing
you can send your command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe pen-l if i am not mistaken, btw. Brick Menz wrote: HELP -- Mine Aysen Doyran PhD Student Department of Political Science SUNY at Albany Nelson A. Rockefeller College 135 Western Ave.; Milne 102 Albany, NY 1
Re: Re: Re: unsubscribing
Here is the list of commands. Dear Penners, This is an occasional reminder of some of the listserv commands at your disposal. The commands have been capitalized for emphasis. These commands should be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you are going to be away and want to postpone messages from pen-l send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and in the message type: SET pen-l MAIL POSTPONE== postpones one's mail SET pen-l MAIL ACK == unpostpone one's mail To unsubscribe from pen-l, please mail listproc the message UNSUB pen-l == two word command Most common mistakes: 1. The inclusion of personal names with the unsub request. 2. Punctuation marks near the two wordsE.g., "unsub pen-l" rather than unsub pen-l unsub pen-l rather than unsub pen-l unsub pen-l. rather than unsub pen-l unsub pen-l rather than unsub pen-l 3. Trying to unsubscribe from an (internet) .edu address when your subscription is registered under a .bitnet address. To determine the address under which you are subscribed, send [EMAIL PROTECTED] the two word request. This request will also give you a list of all subscribers. REVIEW Pen-l If your efforts to unsub have been frustrated, please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] rather than taking your problem to the list. It is helpful to forward a copy the of mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED] that shows the source of your problem. If you would like to receive pen-l messages in batches or digests several times per week instead of message-by-message, send the following command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] SET pen-l MAIL DIGEST If you want to return to message-by-message mail, use the command SET pen-l MAIL ACK If you want to see an index of the logs of past messages and other files send (to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) the command INDEX pen-l The list of files returned from the index command are retrievable with the get command. If, for example, you are interested in messages from January 97, you send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and in the body of the message type GET pen-l JAN97 For friends who would like to subscribe, please have them send the four/five word cmd SUB pen-l Firstname Lastname REMEMBER: All of these commands should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
unsubscribing?
can someone please tell me how to unsub from this list? thanks, derek
