Re: Martix for price discrimination
but there must be exceptions to that law or price discrimination wouldn't be so common. Perhaps the economist's definition of price discrimination differs from the lawyer's? the former would include senior discounts at movie theaters, coupons at grocery stores, etc., etc. Jim -Original Message- From: andie nachgeborenen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri 8/8/2003 2:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Martix for price discrimination Price discrimination is an antitrust violation -- the statute is the Robinson-Patman Act -- that can expose the defendant to treble damages in a civil action, and even if you win you have to pay me, or someone like me, really godawful amounts of money to get you off. (This is in fact largely what I do for a living.) So, the citizen plaintiff is not without recourse! jks --- michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anon. 2003. Is Price Discrimination The Next Big Trend In Commerce? San Jose Mercury News (7 August). The Internet also gives sellers more information about consumers than ever before -- how many products they buy and when, perhaps even how many each can afford. Eventually, two people might get the same pop-up ad for the same Zippo lighter, but one ad pitches them for $15 while another says they're $10. This vision of the Internet is the basis of a new analysis from Andrew Odlyzko, a former Bell Labs mathematician now at the University of Minnesota's Digital Technology Center. Odlyzko expects price discrimination to become more pervasive not only because so much personal data is being collected in online commerce but also as technology, in the name of protecting copyrights, limits what people can do with online content. a few years ago, Coca-Cola Co. experimented with a vending machine that automatically raised prices in hot weather. the economy could suffer if technology helps suppliers engage in price discrimination against producers of important goods and services. http://www.dtc.umn.edu/7/8odlyzko/doc/privacy.economics.pdf -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University michael at ecst.csuchico.edu Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Martix for price discrimination
--- andie nachgeborenen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course there are ways around such laws. That's what they pay me all this money for! But they are not foolproof, and litigation is a cost (a very substantial cost -- they do pay us lots and los of money) ans also a risk. You might lose and get stuck with treble damages. That would be very bad. jks --- Found this: on the cost of litigating a price discrimination lawsuit. This is very low end. I will about $250/hr. Senior partners at my firm bill $500/hr+: http://www.lawmall.com/rpa/rpaexpen.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Martix for price discrimination
Right. What about airline tickets? There are ways around such laws. On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 02:58:50PM -0700, andie nachgeborenen wrote: Price discrimination is an antitrust violation -- the statute is the Robinson-Patman Act -- that can expose the defendant to treble damages in a civil action, and even if you win you have to pay me, or someone like me, really godawful amounts of money to get you off. (This is in fact largely what I do for a living.) So, the citizen plaintiff is not without recourse! jks --- michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anon. 2003. Is Price Discrimination The Next Big Trend In Commerce? San Jose Mercury News (7 August). The Internet also gives sellers more information about consumers than ever before -- how many products they buy and when, perhaps even how many each can afford. Eventually, two people might get the same pop-up ad for the same Zippo lighter, but one ad pitches them for $15 while another says they're $10. This vision of the Internet is the basis of a new analysis from Andrew Odlyzko, a former Bell Labs mathematician now at the University of Minnesota's Digital Technology Center. Odlyzko expects price discrimination to become more pervasive not only because so much personal data is being collected in online commerce but also as technology, in the name of protecting copyrights, limits what people can do with online content. a few years ago, Coca-Cola Co. experimented with a vending machine that automatically raised prices in hot weather. the economy could suffer if technology helps suppliers engage in price discrimination against producers of important goods and services. http://www.dtc.umn.edu/7/8odlyzko/doc/privacy.economics.pdf -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University michael at ecst.csuchico.edu Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martix for price discrimination
there are two major differences that I can see in the US legal definition of price discrimination (below) and the economist's definition are 1) anti-trust law only applies to interstate commerce, right? thus, it wouldn't apply to a local business such as a movie theater. 2) more importantly, the only kind of price discrimination that's illegal has the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them. Not all economic price discrimination has this effect. Jim Here is the conduct prohibited in the statute, 15 USC sec 13(a). (a) Price; selection of customers It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them: Provided, That nothing herein contained shall prevent differentials which make only due allowance for differences in the cost of manufacture, sale, or delivery resulting from the differing methods or quantities in which such commodities are to such purchasers sold or delivered: Provided, however, That the Federal Trade Commission may, after due investigation and hearing to all interested parties, fix and establish quantity limits, and revise the same as it finds necessary, as to particular commodities or classes of commodities, where it finds that available purchasers in greater quantities are so few as to render differentials on account thereof unjustly discriminatory or promotive of monopoly in any line of commerce; and the foregoing shall then not be construed to permit differentials based on differences in quantities greater than those so fixed and established: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent persons engaged in selling goods, wares, or merchandise in commerce from selecting their own customers in bona fide transactions and not in restraint of trade: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent price changes from time to time where in response to changing conditions affecting the market for or the marketability of the goods concerned, such as but not limited to actual or imminent deterioration of perishable goods, obsolescence of seasonal goods, distress sales under court process, or sales in good faith in discontinuance of business in the goods concerned. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Martix for price discrimination
--- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but there must be exceptions to that law or price discrimination wouldn't be so common. Perhaps the economist's definition of price discrimination differs from the lawyer's? the former would include senior discounts at movie theaters, coupons at grocery stores, etc., etc. Jim Here is the conduct prohibited in the statute, 15 USC sec 13(a). (a) Price; selection of customers It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them: Provided, That nothing herein contained shall prevent differentials which make only due allowance for differences in the cost of manufacture, sale, or delivery resulting from the differing methods or quantities in which such commodities are to such purchasers sold or delivered: Provided, however, That the Federal Trade Commission may, after due investigation and hearing to all interested parties, fix and establish quantity limits, and revise the same as it finds necessary, as to particular commodities or classes of commodities, where it finds that available purchasers in greater quantities are so few as to render differentials on account thereof unjustly discriminatory or promotive of monopoly in any line of commerce; and the foregoing shall then not be construed to permit differentials based on differences in quantities greater than those so fixed and established: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent persons engaged in selling goods, wares, or merchandise in commerce from selecting their own customers in bona fide transactions and not in restraint of trade: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent price changes from time to time where in response to changing conditions affecting the market for or the marketability of the goods concerned, such as but not limited to actual or imminent deterioration of perishable goods, obsolescence of seasonal goods, distress sales under court process, or sales in good faith in discontinuance of business in the goods concerned. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Martix for price discrimination
Of course there are ways around such laws. That's what they pay me all this money for! But they are not foolproof, and litigation is a cost (a very substantial cost -- they do pay us lots and los of money) ans also a risk. You might lose and get stuck with treble damages. That would be very bad. jks --- Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right. What about airline tickets? There are ways around such laws. On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 02:58:50PM -0700, andie nachgeborenen wrote: Price discrimination is an antitrust violation -- the statute is the Robinson-Patman Act -- that can expose the defendant to treble damages in a civil action, and even if you win you have to pay me, or someone like me, really godawful amounts of money to get you off. (This is in fact largely what I do for a living.) So, the citizen plaintiff is not without recourse! jks --- michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anon. 2003. Is Price Discrimination The Next Big Trend In Commerce? San Jose Mercury News (7 August). The Internet also gives sellers more information about consumers than ever before -- how many products they buy and when, perhaps even how many each can afford. Eventually, two people might get the same pop-up ad for the same Zippo lighter, but one ad pitches them for $15 while another says they're $10. This vision of the Internet is the basis of a new analysis from Andrew Odlyzko, a former Bell Labs mathematician now at the University of Minnesota's Digital Technology Center. Odlyzko expects price discrimination to become more pervasive not only because so much personal data is being collected in online commerce but also as technology, in the name of protecting copyrights, limits what people can do with online content. a few years ago, Coca-Cola Co. experimented with a vending machine that automatically raised prices in hot weather. the economy could suffer if technology helps suppliers engage in price discrimination against producers of important goods and services. http://www.dtc.umn.edu/7/8odlyzko/doc/privacy.economics.pdf -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University michael at ecst.csuchico.edu Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Martix for price discrimination
Price discrimination is an antitrust violation -- the statute is the Robinson-Patman Act -- that can expose the defendant to treble damages in a civil action, and even if you win you have to pay me, or someone like me, really godawful amounts of money to get you off. (This is in fact largely what I do for a living.) So, the citizen plaintiff is not without recourse! jks --- michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anon. 2003. Is Price Discrimination The Next Big Trend In Commerce? San Jose Mercury News (7 August). The Internet also gives sellers more information about consumers than ever before -- how many products they buy and when, perhaps even how many each can afford. Eventually, two people might get the same pop-up ad for the same Zippo lighter, but one ad pitches them for $15 while another says they're $10. This vision of the Internet is the basis of a new analysis from Andrew Odlyzko, a former Bell Labs mathematician now at the University of Minnesota's Digital Technology Center. Odlyzko expects price discrimination to become more pervasive not only because so much personal data is being collected in online commerce but also as technology, in the name of protecting copyrights, limits what people can do with online content. a few years ago, Coca-Cola Co. experimented with a vending machine that automatically raised prices in hot weather. the economy could suffer if technology helps suppliers engage in price discrimination against producers of important goods and services. http://www.dtc.umn.edu/7/8odlyzko/doc/privacy.economics.pdf -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University michael at ecst.csuchico.edu Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Martix for price discrimination
--- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are two major differences that I can see in the US legal definition of price discrimination (below) and the economist's definition are 1) anti-trust law only applies to interstate commerce, right? thus, it wouldn't apply to a local business such as a movie theater. You dpo have to prove the interstate commerce element. But the definition of interstate commerce is quite broad. If what happens within a state affects interstate commerce even a teeny bit, then the jurisdictional requirement is satisfied. It's a low showing. 2) more importantly, the only kind of price discrimination that's illegal has the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them. Not all economic price discrimination has this effect. Right, so you can mount a defense that your price discrimination is not harmful to competition. This is not actually an affirmative defense. The harm to competition is part of plaintiff's prima facie case, meaning it's something the P has to show by a preponderance. In antitrust law, outside of a small class of per se violations like price fixing, where harm to competition is presumed, you have to show that the practice is in fact harmful to competition. jks Jim Here is the conduct prohibited in the statute, 15 USC sec 13(a). (a) Price; selection of customers It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them: Provided, That nothing herein contained shall prevent differentials which make only due allowance for differences in the cost of manufacture, sale, or delivery resulting from the differing methods or quantities in which such commodities are to such purchasers sold or delivered: Provided, however, That the Federal Trade Commission may, after due investigation and hearing to all interested parties, fix and establish quantity limits, and revise the same as it finds necessary, as to particular commodities or classes of commodities, where it finds that available purchasers in greater quantities are so few as to render differentials on account thereof unjustly discriminatory or promotive of monopoly in any line of commerce; and the foregoing shall then not be construed to permit differentials based on differences in quantities greater than those so fixed and established: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent persons engaged in selling goods, wares, or merchandise in commerce from selecting their own customers in bona fide transactions and not in restraint of trade: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent price changes from time to time where in response to changing conditions affecting the market for or the marketability of the goods concerned, such as but not limited to actual or imminent deterioration of perishable goods, obsolescence of seasonal goods, distress sales under court process, or sales in good faith in discontinuance of business in the goods concerned. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
