Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8)(fwd)
Stephen E Philion [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/30/00 08:05PM This thread is looking more and more like a spam thread. CB: Sounds like a first step to intellectual execution. CB
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
From: "Jim Devine" [EMAIL PROTECTED] (and it would be truly groovy if the CATHOLIC WORKER leader Dorothy Day became a saint, almost making up for the on-going move to make Fr. Junipero Serra one) Vatican to Weigh Sainthood For Reformer Dorothy Day By Hanna Rosin Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, March 17, 2000; Page A03 Catholic Worker newspaper, but famously said, "Don't trivialize me by trying to make me a saint." The Vatican yesterday agreed to consider whether to grant sainthood to Dorothy Day, heroine of the Catholic left, journalist, anarchist and pacifist, ignoring objections from church traditionalists and possibly Day's own wishes. snip Many traditionalists think Day's radical past makes her an unsuitable role model. But many of her activist friends resist it for the opposite reason. To them, canonization will whitewash her life and turn it into a tidy inspirational story. "I want to let you know how sick your canonization moves are," her granddaughter Maggie Hennessy wrote to the Catholic magazine that first proposed it in 1987. "You have completely missed her beliefs and what she lived for if you are trying to stick her on a pedestal." Yesterday, a fellow activist, Daniel Berrigan, seemed resigned. "I guess it's a fait accompli," he said. "The dead don't ever own the dead." Day herself resisted the honor. Nervous about having her life examined, she burned all copies of her novel "Eleventh Hour," a fictionalized account of her early life, including her abortion and sexual adventures. When asked about sainthood directly, she famously quipped: "Don't trivialize me by trying to make me a saint." snip http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-03/17/098l-031700-idx.html
Re: Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
When asked about sainthood directly, [Dorothy Day] famously quipped: "Don't trivialize me by trying to make me a saint." and Lenin said he didn't want any statues of him built, since they attract pigeons. No-one has any control over what happens after they die. My point, BTW, was that it would be nice to have a few thousand saints to counteract the dire influence of Junipero Serra. For example, Fr. Bartelemo (sp?) de las Casas, the defender of the American Indians against the Spaniards, would be a good one. But it's really up to the Catholics (of which I am not one) to decide these things. Thus, I used the flippant phrase, "truly groovy." (Unfortunately, it's not up to "the Catholics" to decide such things, since it's only a small minority at the top of the hierarchy that does so. But again, that's an issue for the Catholics to grapple with.) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://liberalarts.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: are your catholic folks progressive enough when it comes to gender issues? just crucious to know... Mine Steve: The answer to that is, obviously, yes. Many Catholic lefties are pro-choice,...all one has to do is read their literature. They might not like abortion, be against it in their own personal situation, but they won't support anti-choice legislation. And they will also show up at pro-choice activities, which is probably more than you would do. This thread is looking more and more like a spam thread. Steve
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
I don't see the need to stereotype religious people. In my experience their political believes and practice varies as much as those of non-believers. Yes there are religious fascists, but there are atheists fascists as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it is indeed true that religious folks do a lot of "useful" things. the last time I was in Turkey, they were subjecting girls to virginity tests in local high schools in case there was a complaint from their parents about the sexual dignity of their daughters.. in other times, they created a transportation system in municipalities, somewhere in remote places of Anotolia, that was gender segregated. Their justification was the protection of women's bodies from male contact. very humanitarian aid infact! are your catholic folks progressive enough when it comes to gender issues? just crucious to know... Mine Jim Devine wrote: working at a religious-oriented institution (a Jesuit-Marymount college), I know that religious folks do a lot of good work -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
Rod, the issue is about neither religious fascism nor about atheist fascism. where is that I am stereotyping for my sake? can you show spefically, please? I condemened both in several other posts. in fact, racial interpretations of bible *exactly* fits in socio-biological arguments for the superiority of races and the biological weakness of the female sex. bible has many racist connotations similar to that of socio-bilogical assumptions. I guarantee you that many of my religious students (whetever their religion is) would have no less problems with Murray, Rushton and Lynn than my secular students. This is a systemic and dangerous problem. let's face it. this relationship exists whether we like it or not. in the pre-civil war era, in the US, drunkness and adultery was subject to capital punishment in the protestant prutanist based connecticut and new england laws. Many of the US secular laws still preserve this prutanist mentality. Thomas Jefferson, the most secularists of all secularists, was a slave owner. now will you tell me that I am stereotyping fascists? I don't see how is your argument fits in the context here. furthermore, how would you guarantee that religions do not stereotype each other? US foreign policy interests, shaped by both reactionary conservatives and liberal rulings classes (protestant and catholic) in the congress, have always been preoccupied with creating a myth of the "other", Islam, let's say, to perpetuate their own interests in the Middle East. These people do not give a *damn* about human rigghts violations there, neither by the authoritarian states nor by islamists. They created the monster to set off soviet socialism by oppressing leftist movements; now, soviet communism is gone, and they are trying to maintain Islam they created through military aid to the region unless it does not pose a major threat to US hegemonic interests. furthermore, why is that this obsession with defending christianity (or any religion) or constantly rationalizing or apologizing it! the more we apologize it, the more we come closer to obscuring religion's racist and sexist dimensions. okey there are progressive religious people around, and that is fine although I have not specifically seen their claims yet. My problem is a fundemental problem with religion, not a problem with those people. moreover, the below passage criticizes the fascist monitoring of women's rights and their sexuality. isn't it obvious that I am condeming it? Mine -- Forwarded message -- Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:52:14 -0500 From: Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:17586] Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd) I don't see the need to stereotype religious people. In my experience their political believes and practice varies as much as those of non-believers. Yes there are religious fascists, but there are atheists fascists as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it is indeed true that religious folks do a lot of "useful" things. the last time I was in Turkey, they were subjecting girls to virginity tests in local high schools in case there was a complaint from their parents about the sexual dignity of their daughters.. in other times, they created a transportation system in municipalities, somewhere in remote places of Anotolia, that was gender segregated. Their justification was the protection of women's bodies from male contact. very humanitarian aid infact! are your catholic folks progressive enough when it comes to gender issues? just crucious to know... Mine Jim Devine wrote: working at a religious-oriented institution (a Jesuit-Marymount college), I know that religious folks do a lot of good work -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
I asked you to stop this thread off list. This is your last warning, Mine. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
And in the olden days of the 1960's, the Quakers were pretty important in the draft resistance and anti-Vietnam war action. mbs I'm no fan of religion, and I'm guessing you're not either, but there's no doubt that religious people do lots of extremely admirable labor, human rights, and antiwar work. So they've got lots to do with the issues you seem to think they don't. Without Roman Catholics there would have been no significant Central America solidarity work in my area during the '80s. Without Roman Catholics and Mennonites we would have had a far weaker Anti-Gulf War Coalition. The most dependable comrades Jan and I have locally are three Roman Catholics. And see Lenin's comments on Father Gopin and the importance of there being thousands more like Father Gopin. (He called Trotsky a blowhard for not seeing that importance.) Carrol
