Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
I agree Yoshie. But the problem is with the social system not with the technical feasibility. Rod Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: > >There is no shortage of energy! > > > >Nor of any other resource. > > > >The environmental problem we have to solve is how to get rid of our > >garbage without fouling our environment to such an extent that it is > >inhospitable for human life. > > > >Rod > > I agree that waste management is an urgent problem, but the reason > why there is "no shortage of energy nor of any other resources" is > that the market rations their use. Econ 101 says that any shortage > can be cured by an appropriately higher price, so it seems there is > no point in celebrating an absence of shortage. The poor in poor > countries have no access to electricity, clean water, reliable > transportation, household appliances, and other goods that consume > oil and other resources in their production, because they can't > afford them. If everyone in the world were to live according to the > standards set by rich nations, wouldn't there be a problem (though > capitalism does prevent this particular problem from ever arising, > since the majority are doomed to poverty)? > > Yoshie -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
RE: Re: :"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Eugene Coyle wrote: > > MA Jones seems to be changing his position. On the one hand he > says we are > running out of oil and there is nothing anyone can do about it. > So What's to > organize? What does this mean? That you prefer to inhabit a world of illusion on condition that illusory organising remains an option? It is necessary to start from reality, however grim, and quit wishful thinking. Of course, there is nothing that you and I can do as individuals about the behemoth of late capitalism that is running over the world. But equally of course, we should do what we can to deal with results of that disaster, and not hide from them. > Now Mark has added global warming to > his list of > things to organize around. Good. But he never mentioned it before. You obviously don't read what I write. But that's your problem, not mine. Mark
Re: Re:"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
M A Jones wrote: > > > Alternatively, help us ORGANISE. Help us fucking organise, man. Of course. There's an old throwaway line that catches the point nicely: Workers of the world -- unite. I have argued for years that our perspective should be grounded neither in the desirability nor the possibility of socialism but in its necessity. Arguments or agitation based on the former demand the powers of prophecy, while the latter refers only to what we know. Ordinary understanding of capitalist reality (including knowledge shared by all four of Lou's "schools") establishes that necessity. Leaving aside Lou's claim for the *necessity* of a theoretical revolution inside Marxism, all you seem to want to add is an increased sense of urgency -- which has always been a disaster in revolutionary politics. In this case, for example, your urgency drives a wholly unnecessary split between you and Jose Perez (and I emphasize that that split is unnecessary *even* if you are correct and Jose is wrong on the technical issues). You and Lou on this topic are increasingly developing the tone which I associate with the collapse of the movement of the '60s -- that of the Weatherman faction of SDS. They projected what was then (and now) an empirically accurate analysis of the U.S. (white) working class into an eternal barrier to working class as crippled by racism into an eternal barrier to working-class revolution. As I was told by an extremely bright and committed young woman (who I myself had recruited into SDS and socialism only a year before), socialism could be achieved in the U.S. only under occupation by the P.L.A. Her sense of urgency then drove her completely out of the movement, and the last time I saw her she was consulting an astrology guide to determine her bus schedule out of town. This may be apocryphal, but a friend once quoted Lenin as saying there were three revolutionary virtues -- Patience, Patience, Patience. And incidentally, some recent discussion of "organizing" on this list would have profited from distinguishing organizing from agitation. Your own recognition of the abstract urgency of global warming blinds you to the probably weakness of global warming as an agitational issue -- even though it almost certainly could add enormously to the power of a working class in movement (and could do so without accepting your and Lou's metaphysical assertion of it). You are right -- and your sense of your rightness is leading you to shoot yourself in the foot. You become a contributor to global waming by being unable to think clearly about the principles in terms of which it can become part of the socialist struggle. Carrol
Re: Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Unfortunately Rod does not understand what Yoshie is saying. It is simply wrong to say "the problem is with the social system not with the> technical feasibility." The problem is precisely with technical feasibility and it is mystification to argue anything else. If you think another social system would miraculously find vast new undiscovered deposits of fossil fuels, or work out how to make cold fusion work, or how to run bulldozers with light-bulb power PV's, then you are simply and wholly wrong about the elementary facts of the case. Mark Jones http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList - Original Message - From: "Rod Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:01 AM Subject: [PEN-L:20794] Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000 > I agree Yoshie. But the problem is with the social system not with the > technical feasibility. > > Rod > > Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: > > > >There is no shortage of energy! > > > > > >Nor of any other resource. > > > > > >The environmental problem we have to solve is how to get rid of our > > >garbage without fouling our environment to such an extent that it is > > >inhospitable for human life. > > > > > >Rod > > > > I agree that waste management is an urgent problem, but the reason > > why there is "no shortage of energy nor of any other resources" is > > that the market rations their use. Econ 101 says that any shortage > > can be cured by an appropriately higher price, so it seems there is > > no point in celebrating an absence of shortage. The poor in poor > > countries have no access to electricity, clean water, reliable > > transportation, household appliances, and other goods that consume > > oil and other resources in their production, because they can't > > afford them. If everyone in the world were to live according to the > > standards set by rich nations, wouldn't there be a problem (though > > capitalism does prevent this particular problem from ever arising, > > since the majority are doomed to poverty)? > > > > Yoshie > > -- > Rod Hay > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The History of Economic Thought Archive > http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html > Batoche Books > http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ > 52 Eby Street South > Kitchener, Ontario > N2G 3L1 > Canada > >
RE: Re: Re:"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Carrol, There is no split between me and Jose Perez. As for astrology guides as alternatives to bus timetables, that may not be irrational. In parts of the UK, you could get arrested for loitering if you stood around at a bus stop waiting for a bus, after Mrs Thatcher privatised public transport. As I understand your msgs, I am in danger of losing people's attention because you think they are mostly too stupid and prole to understand abstract issues like global warming. This argument is crap. Mark Jones http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Carrol Cox > Sent: 28 June 2000 19:30 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [PEN-L:20861] Re: Re:"We used 10 times as much energy in the > 20thcentury as in the 1,000 > > > > > M A Jones wrote: > > > > > > > Alternatively, help us ORGANISE. Help us fucking organise, man. > > Of course. There's an old throwaway line that catches the point nicely: > Workers of the world -- unite. I have argued for years that our > perspective > should be grounded neither in the desirability nor the > possibility of socialism > but in its necessity. Arguments or agitation based on the former > demand the > powers of prophecy, while the latter refers only to what we know. > > Ordinary understanding of capitalist reality (including knowledge shared > by all four of Lou's "schools") establishes that necessity. Leaving aside > Lou's claim for the *necessity* of a theoretical revolution > inside Marxism, > all you seem to want to add is an increased sense of urgency -- which > has always been a disaster in revolutionary politics. In this case, for > example, your urgency drives a wholly unnecessary split between you > and Jose Perez (and I emphasize that that split is unnecessary *even* > if you are correct and Jose is wrong on the technical issues). > > You and Lou on this topic are increasingly developing the tone which I > associate with the collapse of the movement of the '60s -- that of the > Weatherman faction of SDS. They projected what was then (and now) > an empirically accurate analysis of the U.S. (white) working class into > an eternal barrier to working class as crippled by racism into an eternal > barrier to working-class revolution. As I was told by an extremely > bright and committed young woman (who I myself had recruited into > SDS and socialism only a year before), socialism could be achieved in > the U.S. only under occupation by the P.L.A. Her sense of urgency > then drove her completely out of the movement, and the last time I > saw her she was consulting an astrology guide to determine her bus > schedule out of town. > > This may be apocryphal, but a friend once quoted Lenin as saying there > were three revolutionary virtues -- Patience, Patience, Patience. > > And incidentally, some recent discussion of "organizing" on this list > would have profited from distinguishing organizing from agitation. Your > own recognition of the abstract urgency of global warming blinds you > to the probably weakness of global warming as an agitational issue -- > even though it almost certainly could add enormously to the power of > a working class in movement (and could do so without accepting > your and Lou's metaphysical assertion of it). You are right -- and your > sense of your rightness is leading you to shoot yourself in the foot. > You become a contributor to global waming by being unable to > think clearly about the principles in terms of which it can become > part of the socialist struggle. > > Carrol > >
Re: Re: Re: :"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Tarawa is an atoll. The battle was fought on the big island, Betio, which, however, is still pretty small--is there really room for 30,000 people there? Even scattered through the islands, that seems like a lot. Betio is pretty flat, too. Where is this 260 foot elevation? --jks In a message dated Wed, 28 Jun 2000 1:54:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brad De Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: << > > During WW II in the war in the Pacific, one of the most horrendous battles >was fought over the island of Tarawa. Death in great numbers came to both >sides. Tarawa is now beneath the Pacific ocean, a casualty of global warming. > > >Gene Coyle 30,000 people live on Tarawa. The expected high today is 86 degrees. The high point on Tarawa is 260 feet above sea level. Where do people pick up such misinformation? Brad DeLong -- Professor J. Bradford DeLong Department of Economics, #3880 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-3880 (510) 643-4027; (925) 283-2709 voice (510) 642-6615; (925) 283-3897 fax http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/ >>
Re: Re: Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
London (1830) Economic pundit X: If the economy continues to grow at its present rate, in fifty years we will all be buried in ten feet of horse shit. Rod -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re:"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
M A Jones wrote: > Unfortunately Rod does not understand what Yoshie is saying. It is simply > wrong to say "the problem is with the social system not with the> technical > feasibility." The problem is precisely with technical feasibility and it is > mystification to argue anything else. Then do we a) Forget about it? b) Petition the capitalist class to save us, though they can't? c) Or what the hell is your proposal for action? It really seems to me Mark that you and Lou are no longer interested in socialist action but merely in presenting poetic images of our end. Carrol
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
>From your database of 1, you produced a profound sample, no? Now, however, let's talk about fossil carbon and what it means and what it does, or else stop wasting our time. Mark Jones http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList - Original Message - From: "Rod Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: [PEN-L:20818] Re: Re: Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000 > London (1830) > > Economic pundit X: If the economy continues to grow at its present rate, in > fifty years we will all be buried in ten feet of horse shit. > > Rod > > -- > Rod Hay > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The History of Economic Thought Archive > http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html > Batoche Books > http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ > 52 Eby Street South > Kitchener, Ontario > N2G 3L1 > Canada > >
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Carrol, you keep asking what to do, I'd suggest superglue, go to a power station in a state of elation, stick yourself to a chimney, then we'll see, if it's a nuke you stay till you're blue, if it's coal you stay till your ole, if you wanne be eco n' even more ego, tape yourself to a windmill, whaddya say? Quixote, you'll soon be green, but at least you'll be seen Alternatively, help us ORGANISE. Help us fucking organise, man. Mark Jones http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList - Original Message - From: "Carrol Cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: [PEN-L:20821] Re: Re: Re: Re:"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000 > > > M A Jones wrote: > > > Unfortunately Rod does not understand what Yoshie is saying. It is simply > > wrong to say "the problem is with the social system not with the> technical > > feasibility." The problem is precisely with technical feasibility and it is > > mystification to argue anything else. > > Then do we > > a) Forget about it? > b) Petition the capitalist class to save us, though they can't? > c) Or what the hell is your proposal for action? > > It really seems to me Mark that you and Lou are no longer interested > in socialist action but merely in presenting poetic images of our end. > > Carrol > >
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:"We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Well if you can't beat them, I guess the next best thing is to become a Marxist Jeremiah. By the way if socialists should get their skates on, as Mark Jones proclaims ex cathedra, won't they be skating on thin ice given global warming? Actually the results of global warming are imaginable. Most of the discussion aside from extrapolation of statistics is imaginings. Prediction is much more difficult. I imagine being able to grow tomatoes from seed instead of having trasplants freeze in June, and Alaska as being the new agricultural giant. If California becomes completely desert no doubt this will spawn myriads of new spiritual movements including Marxist collective hermits no doubt. Cheers, Ken Hanly Carrol Cox wrote: > M A Jones wrote: > > > Unfortunately Rod does not understand what Yoshie is saying. It is simply > > wrong to say "the problem is with the social system not with the> technical > > feasibility." The problem is precisely with technical feasibility and it is > > mystification to argue anything else. > > Then do we > > a) Forget about it? > b) Petition the capitalist class to save us, though they can't? > c) Or what the hell is your proposal for action? > > It really seems to me Mark that you and Lou are no longer interested > in socialist action but merely in presenting poetic images of our end. > > Carrol
