Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Speaking of "lying down with wolves," what do the names Wolfowitz and Wolfensohn mean in German? What does Alterman mean? Jim Devine, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Speaking of "lying down with wolves," what do the names Wolfowitz and Wolfensohn mean in German? What does Alterman mean? Jim Devine, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/ I don't know about German, but "Alter" means old in Yiddish. My parents used to refer to an elderly person that they didn't like as an "alter kacker", or old shit. -- www.marxmail.org
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
I know an old comedian who calls himself an "alter kacker." Jim Devine, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/ >>Speaking of "lying down with wolves," what do the names Wolfowitz and Wolfensohn mean in German? What does Alterman mean?<< > I don't know about German, but "Alter" means old in Yiddish. My parents used to refer to an elderly person that they didn't like as an "alter kacker", or old shit.<
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 anymore. Doug
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Maybe it's because the number of liberals has fallen so much that it's getting to where there almost as few as those on the left? They're getting so that liberal organizations are just as small and pitiful as leftist sects, so we can see them as competitors? Jim Devine, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/ > -Original Message- > From: PEN-L list [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug > Henwood > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:45 PM > To: PEN-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves > > Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 > anymore. > > Doug
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Maybe it's because the number of liberals has fallen so much that it's getting to where there almost as few as those on the left? They're getting so that liberal organizations are just as small and pitiful as leftist sects, so we can see them as competitors? Jim Devine, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/ I wouldn't consider artsjournal.com as seeing itself in competition with liberals. It is a rather respectable website that was actually reported on by the NY Times when it was launched. I would put the item on Alterman in the same category as the NY Observer article that appeared a couple of years ago, which pilloried Alterman more for being a twit more than for his politics. Unfortunately, it is only available now by paying a fee, but here's a snippet that I posted once before: Eric Alterman, the liberal author of the new book What Liberal Media?, was standing in the middle of Michael's restaurant, the liberal-media hangout on West 55th Street in Manhattan. After a warm embrace with lefty novelist E.L. Doctorow, he took a seat. Mr. Alterman reeked of success. Forty-three years old. Four books under his belt, with bold titles like Who Speaks for America? Media columnist for The Nation magazine. A Web blogger who is paid by MSNBC.com to write whatever the heck is on his mind every morning. Degrees from Cornell, Yale and Stanford. Best man at his wedding? George Stephanopoulos. Divorced now, but living with a cool lady-who hasn't insisted he marry her!-and their cute kid on the Upper West Side. He's the kind of guy whom even close friends call "arrogant," "intolerable" and "asshole"-but always affectionately and always followed by praise. He apologized for being late for lunch. A reporter for NPR's All Things Considered had called to interview him. (By the way, according to Mr. Alterman's book, NPR ain't so liberal.) He ordered foie gras, the Kobe beef and a glass of pinot noir. Earlier, he'd said he liked his lunches "expensive." He has a brainy-little-kid quality, with large fish-like eyes behind glasses and a neatly trimmed goatee. He has a distinctive laugh that begins at raucous and ends in high, whinnying hysteria. He was wearing a gray blazer, a purple button-down shirt and faded jeans, which was dressy compared to his normal attire. That evening Justin Smith, publisher of the magazine The Week, was throwing him a dinner party, which would be attended by liberal pals like Mark Green, writer Calvin Trillin, The Nation's Victor Navasky and even three ex-models. -- www.marxmail.org
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
"Devine, James" wrote: > > Maybe it's because the number of liberals has fallen so much that it's > getting to where there almost as few as those on the left? They're > getting so that liberal organizations are just as small and pitiful as > leftist sects, so we can see them as competitors? I'm not sure how meanings "liberal" can carry -- but of the 20 to 35 fairly active people in the local anti-war group, "liberal" in some sense is probably the best label for all but two or three -- and that's counting Jan & me. And I figure that number has to (and can) grow somewhat (quite a bit?) larger before we can start generating self-conscious radicals among them. Mainly what I try to do in the group is convince them (a) to hang in there and (b) that there are a lot more like them in the area who only need to be activated. And after a precipitate plunge late 2003 and early 2004 we have been growing. Carrol
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
I wrote: >> Maybe it's because the number of liberals has fallen so much that it's getting to where there almost as few as those on the left? They're getting so that liberal organizations are just as small and pitiful as leftist sects, so we can see them as competitors?<< Carrol: > I'm not sure how meanings "liberal" can carry -- but of the 20 to 35 fairly active people in the local anti-war group, "liberal" in some sense is probably the best label for all but two or three -- and that's counting Jan & me. > And I figure that number has to (and can) grow somewhat (quite a bit?) larger before we can start generating self-conscious radicals among them. Mainly what I try to do in the group is convince them (a) to hang in there and (b) that there are a lot more like them in the area who only need to be activated. And after a precipitate plunge late 2003 and early 2004 we have been growing.< I think that's the right attitude. Whether someone is a "liberal" is of secondary or tertiary or even lowerary importance. Labels are much less important than concrete issues of politics. Jim Devine
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
"Devine, James" wrote: > > > I think that's the right attitude. Whether someone is a "liberal" is of > secondary or tertiary or even lowerary importance. Labels are much less > important than concrete issues of politics. I believe Marx had something along that line to say in the Critique of the Gotha Programme. During 2004 we (Jan & I) made it clear that we were not going to vote or campaign for Kerry, but _neither_ did we put pressure on others not to: we figured that could wait. We've got three+ years now to undermine faith in the DP. And I just now noted, glancing at the subject line, that "wolves" in it would have a different content from different perspectives -- i.e., the wolves could be reds :-) But then wolves have always been unfairly treated in folk tales. Carrol > Jim Devine
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/11/05 4:44 PM >>> Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 anymore. Doug <> why did it matter then... -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure.
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/11/05 4:44 PM >>> Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 anymore. Doug <> why did it matter then... michael hoover -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure.
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
as phil ochs suggested: love me, love me, love me, i'm a liberal... mh -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure.
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Michael Hoover wrote: >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/11/05 4:44 PM >>> Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 anymore. Doug <> why did it matter then... Because liberalism was close to state power, and because it was capable of co-opting more radical sentiments. Now, it's pretty marginal, even if the Nation's circ is 184,000. Doug
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3/13/2005 1:23:15 AM >>> Michael Hoover wrote: Because liberalism was close to state power, and because it was capable of co-opting more radical sentiments. Now, it's pretty marginal, even if the Nation's circ is 184,000. Doug <> not really re. either of above, as for nation (or other such periodicals), # of subs inversely related to strength of political forces...michael hoover -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure.
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
It seemed to matter to a lot of radicals from Northeastern suburbs who were rebelling against their parents who ran the "establishment". They complained about how John Lindsay said he was not a racist but really did this and this and this... They also would say, "I'd rather meet a racist than a liberal. At least the racist would be open about it." As a Texan who grew up with conservative racists with shotguns and axe handles, I can assure you there are far worse things than being a liberal. Scott Gassler At 00:44 13/03/05, Michael Hoover wrote: >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/11/05 4:44 PM >>> Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 anymore. Doug <> why did it matter then... michael hoover -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure. Robert Scott Gassler Professor of Economics Vesalius College of the Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 B-1050 Brussels Belgium 32.2.629.27.15
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Robert Scott Gassler wrote: > > It seemed to matter to a lot of radicals from Northeastern suburbs who were > rebelling against their parents who ran the "establishment". They > complained about how John Lindsay said he was not a racist but really did > this and this and this... They also would say, "I'd rather meet a racist > than a liberal. At least the racist would be open about it." Well now. I became politically active in my mid-30s, and up to that point my father had always been rather further to the left than me. I've always suspected that had he not spent the '30s in a tuberculosis sanitariumm he might well have joined the CPUSA. So I was hardly rebelling against my parents (and I often complained at the time about the SDS members who confused their parents with the Empire. Also, Bloomington/Normal Illinois isn't quite a "northeastern" suburb. BUT. In fact the serious opposition to civil-rights activity _and_ to the anti-war movement around here were mostly (self-labelled) liberals. I remember the sociology professor who would not sign a statement sin support of a black person on trial, his reason being that one should not interfere with the court process from outside. Then there were all those people who continually chanted, "We agree with your goals but we disagree with your methods." Translation: Wait a few generations until we can get to heaven on a rocking chair. Carrol > > As a Texan who grew up with conservative racists with shotguns and axe > handles, I can assure you there are far worse things than being a liberal. > > Scott Gassler > > At 00:44 13/03/05, Michael Hoover wrote: > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/11/05 4:44 PM >>> > >Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 > >anymore. > >Doug > ><> > > > >why did it matter then... michael hoover > > > >-- > >Please Note: > >Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written > >communications to or from College employees regarding College business are > >public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, > >this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure. > > Robert Scott Gassler > Professor of Economics > Vesalius College of the Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 > B-1050 Brussels > Belgium > > 32.2.629.27.15
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/05 4:54 AM >>> It seemed to matter to a lot of radicals from Northeastern suburbs who were rebelling against their parents who ran the "establishment". They complained about how John Lindsay said he was not a racist but really did this and this and this... They also would say, "I'd rather meet a racist than a liberal. At least the racist would be open about it." As a Texan who grew up with conservative racists with shotguns and axe handles, I can assure you there are far worse things than being a liberal. Scott Gassler <> above indicates how little above folks mattered as well in 1970... i'll see your texas conservative racists and raise you reactionaries in west orange county florida where i was raised who massacred african-american residents and drove those who remained out of area... michael hoover -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure.
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Better fold. I'm from Waco. At 00:30 15/03/05, Michael Hoover wrote: >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/05 4:54 AM >>> It seemed to matter to a lot of radicals from Northeastern suburbs who were rebelling against their parents who ran the "establishment". They complained about how John Lindsay said he was not a racist but really did this and this and this... They also would say, "I'd rather meet a racist than a liberal. At least the racist would be open about it." As a Texan who grew up with conservative racists with shotguns and axe handles, I can assure you there are far worse things than being a liberal. Scott Gassler <> above indicates how little above folks mattered as well in 1970... i'll see your texas conservative racists and raise you reactionaries in west orange county florida where i was raised who massacred african-american residents and drove those who remained out of area... michael hoover -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure. Robert Scott Gassler Professor of Economics Vesalius College of the Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 B-1050 Brussels Belgium 32.2.629.27.15
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Now the chant sometimes refers to Bush. At 20:21 14/03/05, you wrote: Robert Scott Gassler wrote: > > It seemed to matter to a lot of radicals from Northeastern suburbs who were > rebelling against their parents who ran the "establishment". They > complained about how John Lindsay said he was not a racist but really did > this and this and this... They also would say, "I'd rather meet a racist > than a liberal. At least the racist would be open about it." Well now. I became politically active in my mid-30s, and up to that point my father had always been rather further to the left than me. I've always suspected that had he not spent the '30s in a tuberculosis sanitariumm he might well have joined the CPUSA. So I was hardly rebelling against my parents (and I often complained at the time about the SDS members who confused their parents with the Empire. Also, Bloomington/Normal Illinois isn't quite a "northeastern" suburb. BUT. In fact the serious opposition to civil-rights activity _and_ to the anti-war movement around here were mostly (self-labelled) liberals. I remember the sociology professor who would not sign a statement sin support of a black person on trial, his reason being that one should not interfere with the court process from outside. Then there were all those people who continually chanted, "We agree with your goals but we disagree with your methods." Translation: Wait a few generations until we can get to heaven on a rocking chair. Carrol > > As a Texan who grew up with conservative racists with shotguns and axe > handles, I can assure you there are far worse things than being a liberal. > > Scott Gassler > > At 00:44 13/03/05, Michael Hoover wrote: > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/11/05 4:44 PM >>> > >Why does it matter so much what "liberals" say and do? It's not 1970 > >anymore. > >Doug > ><> > > > >why did it matter then... michael hoover > > > >-- > >Please Note: > >Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written > >communications to or from College employees regarding College business are > >public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, > >this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure. > > Robert Scott Gassler > Professor of Economics > Vesalius College of the Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 > B-1050 Brussels > Belgium > > 32.2.629.27.15 Robert Scott Gassler Professor of Economics Vesalius College of the Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 B-1050 Brussels Belgium 32.2.629.27.15
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/15/05 3:48 AM >>> Better fold. I'm from Waco. <> nah, you don't know ocoee... mh -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure.
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Isn't there a "K" in Wacko? Jim Devine, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/ > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/15/05 3:48 AM >>> > Better fold. I'm from Waco. > <> > > nah, you don't know ocoee... mh
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
Further proof that liberals ain't what they used to be. From a new ABC/WashPost poll. Response to question, "Was the war in Iraq worth fighting?" YesNo All 45%53 Democrats 18 80 Independents43 55 Republicans 81 18 Liberals20 79 Moderates 39 58 Conservatives 69 30
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/15/05 5:26 PM >>> Further proof that liberals ain't what they used to be. From a new ABC/WashPost poll. Response to question, "Was the war in Iraq worth fighting?" YesNo Liberals20 79 <>> what % of liberals opposed vietnam war in 66? 68? as late as 70?... mh -- Please Note: Due to Florida's very broad public records law, most written communications to or from College employees regarding College business are public records, available to the public and media upon request. Therefore, this e-mail communication may be subject to public disclosure.
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
--- Michael Hoover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/15/05 5:26 PM >>> > Further proof that liberals ain't what they used to > be. From a new > ABC/WashPost poll. Response to question, "Was the > war in Iraq worth > fighting?" > YesNo > Liberals20 79 > <>> Yes, but the only people who matter who the ones who answer "yes" to "are things like the Iraq war inevitable until we build a worker's state under the leadership of the vanguard dedicated to world revolution?" Everybody else is an evil liberal. Nu, zayats, pogodi! __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
> Further proof that liberals ain't what they used to be. From a new > ABC/WashPost poll. Response to question, "Was the war in Iraq worth > fighting?" Why is the past tense used in this question? Jim Devine
Re: [PEN-L] When liberals lie down with wolves
On Mar 11, 2005, at 1:13 PM, Devine, James wrote: I know an old comedian who calls himself an "alter kacker." There was an old guy in the deep south who had a sex change operation. He was a altered cracker. Dan
