Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Timo Paulssen]

FWIW, Jupyter can also be used with Perl 6, though surely we ought to
advertise it more broadly.

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[vijayvithal jahagirdar]

While I am not an expert in R, My observation about the specific features
that I use often in R and its equivalence in Perl is as follows.

   - The *apply functions, Technically it is similar to Perl's map/grep and
   friends.
   - Magrittr: Perl5 has no equivalent function, Perl6 has the pipe
   operator ==>
   - the tidyverse set of packages, Python has stolen some of the features
   from this package (ggplot and dplyr) I am not aware of any equivalent
   package in Perl.
   - Literate Programming via knitr ( Python has Jupyter) The nearest
   equivalent I find in Perl is one of the template engines but it is really
   not the same...

I suspect that while P6 has the nuts and bolts of being a great language
for DataScience, It does not provide a complete out of the box experience.

For me to consider P6 instead of R for my Data Analytics, At a minimum I
would prefer to have the equivalent of the tidyverse package,Leaflet and
associated GIS packages and knitr(Which already supports Perl)

Regards

Vijay

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 9:36 PM, yary  wrote:

> A bit of a digression around marketing/evangelizing
>
>
>> When I wanted to learn DataScience, courses using R and Python were
>> readily available. Even though I had been using Perl for 20 years, I did
>> not even know where to start in the Perl ecosystem!
>>
>
> I've wondered why PDL isn't more popular, more of a thing in the wide
> world of science. https://metacpan.org/pod/PDL
>
> And PDL was very much in mind during the early & mid design stages of
> Perl6. There's a huge opportunity for Perl6 to be a great platform for data
> science if it can add PDL's data-crunching performance & expressiveness to
> its already wonderful concurrency models.
>
> -y
>
>


-- 
https://www.facebook.com/vijayvithal.jahagirdar
https://twitter.com/jahagirdar_vs
http://democracies-janitor.blogspot.in/

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[yary]

A bit of a digression around marketing/evangelizing


> When I wanted to learn DataScience, courses using R and Python were
> readily available. Even though I had been using Perl for 20 years, I did
> not even know where to start in the Perl ecosystem!
>

I've wondered why PDL isn't more popular, more of a thing in the wide world
of science. https://metacpan.org/pod/PDL

And PDL was very much in mind during the early & mid design stages of
Perl6. There's a huge opportunity for Perl6 to be a great platform for data
science if it can add PDL's data-crunching performance & expressiveness to
its already wonderful concurrency models.

-y

RE: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Eaglestone, Robert J]

Thank you for your insightful comment Vijay.  You’re right.

Perl6’s evangelists will typically be current Perlers who are running up 
against Perl5’s limitations.

So I think you’ve circumscribed the issue: what is Perl6 for?


  *   Perl6 could be “better than Go” for microservices – IF it’s easy to do 
that.
  *   Perl6 could be “better than Scala” for concurrency – IF it’s better than 
Scala at it.
  *   Perl6 could be good for text processing.  But I don’t know how Rules work.
  *   Bio-Informatics would be great – IF Perl5 is limiting their scope and P6 
opens it back up.
  *   I am having trouble seeing Perl6 as a sysadmin glue language.

In my opinion, the first evangelists are more likely to be microservice and 
concurrency coders than enterprise coders.


From: vijayvithal jahagirdar [mailto:jahagirdar...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 1:05 AM
To: Darren Duncan <dar...@darrenduncan.net>
Cc: Perl Language <perl6-langu...@perl.org>; raiph mellor 
<raiph.mel...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of CA. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
Marketing is not only about branding. It is also about finding Evangelists.
Perl's traditional base was in

  *   Web Development,
  *   Text Processing,
  *   Bio-Informatics and
  *   As a general glue language among the sys admin and EDA community.

How many of these sectors are moving away or have moved away from Perl? What is 
the game plan for bringing them back?

  *   How many courses are there today on Coursera or Other MOOCS which use 
Perl to teach one of the above?
  *   If I wanted to learn something new today, rather than plod through 300 
pages of a book I would signup for a course and spend the time in watching the 
course material and doing the assignments.
  *   When I wanted to learn DataScience, courses using R and Python were 
readily available. Even though I had been using Perl for 20 years, I did not 
even know where to start in the Perl ecosystem!

I believe along with re branding we also need powerful narratives about how 
Modern Perl and P6 are better than their competitors in the selected domains.

Regards

Vijay

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 3:26 AM, Darren Duncan 
<dar...@darrenduncan.net<mailto:dar...@darrenduncan.net>> wrote:
If we assume the use of NQP is part of the project's identity, then yes that 
makes sense.  Historically that wasn't the case, eg the earlier Rakudo were 
written to Parrot PIR directly, and there's the possibility this could change 
again, though I see that as unlikely.  Not a bad idea. -- Darren Duncan

On 2018-02-16 3:07 AM, Lloyd Fournier wrote:
I'm about to publish some blog posts with using Perl 6  to demonstrate some 
cryptographic primitives. I was thinking about calling it "rakudo" to at least 
intrigue people and make them google it. Couldn't we call the language rakudo 
and the implementation nqp-rakudo? (ie a rakudo implementation in nqp)

LL


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 5:02 AM Patrick R. Michaud wrote:

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 05:55:54PM +, raiph mellor wrote:
 > (Perl) Rakudo
 > ===
 >
 > If jnthn and pmichaud and larry can warm to this idea, then:
 > [...]
 > The 'Perl' could be dropped from Rakudo specific propaganda,
 > calling the language just Rakudo instead, to reinforce that it refers
 > to 6e and beyond. But the Perl could be retained in any material
 > covering both Raptor and Rakudo as a reunified tech / community.

FWIW, I am VERY MUCH AGAINST the idea of naming a language after its
implementation.  I've seen the confusion it causes in other environments and
we ought not repeat that mistake here, especially since we don't have to.

Whatever things end up being called, don't confuse the implementation(s)
with the language definition.

Pm



--
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http://democracies-janitor.blogspot.in/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__democracies-2Djanitor.blogspot.in_=DwMFaQ=_hRq4mqlUmqpqlyQ5hkoDXIVh6I6pxfkkNxQuL0p-Z0=YVtxbf12RluVb8ADnHy_ofdMa_3_X_0rVHmYLjfLBqc=eEYEh2nqWqWaPBSw8-laGZpox5xmyAsBGKlm8pKh9l8=BrSKvtzA38irul4-AIbsJzZO-uPP9lEqqeZvKr2er54=>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[vijayvithal jahagirdar]

Marketing is not only about branding. It is also about finding Evangelists.
Perl's traditional base was in

   - Web Development,
   - Text Processing,
   - Bio-Informatics and
   - As a general glue language among the sys admin and EDA community.

How many of these sectors are moving away or have moved away from Perl?
What is the game plan for bringing them back?

   - How many courses are there today on Coursera or Other MOOCS which use
   Perl to teach one of the above?
   - If I wanted to learn something new today, rather than plod through 300
   pages of a book I would signup for a course and spend the time in watching
   the course material and doing the assignments.
   - When I wanted to learn DataScience, courses using R and Python were
   readily available. Even though I had been using Perl for 20 years, I did
   not even know where to start in the Perl ecosystem!

I believe along with re branding we also need powerful narratives about how
Modern Perl and P6 are better than their competitors in the selected
domains.

Regards

Vijay

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 3:26 AM, Darren Duncan 
wrote:

> If we assume the use of NQP is part of the project's identity, then yes
> that makes sense.  Historically that wasn't the case, eg the earlier Rakudo
> were written to Parrot PIR directly, and there's the possibility this could
> change again, though I see that as unlikely.  Not a bad idea. -- Darren
> Duncan
>
> On 2018-02-16 3:07 AM, Lloyd Fournier wrote:
>
>> I'm about to publish some blog posts with using Perl 6  to demonstrate
>> some cryptographic primitives. I was thinking about calling it "rakudo" to
>> at least intrigue people and make them google it. Couldn't we call the
>> language rakudo and the implementation nqp-rakudo? (ie a rakudo
>> implementation in nqp)
>>
>> LL
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 5:02 AM Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 05:55:54PM +, raiph mellor wrote:
>>  > (Perl) Rakudo
>>  > ===
>>  >
>>  > If jnthn and pmichaud and larry can warm to this idea, then:
>>  > [...]
>>  > The 'Perl' could be dropped from Rakudo specific propaganda,
>>  > calling the language just Rakudo instead, to reinforce that it
>> refers
>>  > to 6e and beyond. But the Perl could be retained in any material
>>  > covering both Raptor and Rakudo as a reunified tech / community.
>>
>> FWIW, I am VERY MUCH AGAINST the idea of naming a language after its
>> implementation.  I've seen the confusion it causes in other
>> environments and
>> we ought not repeat that mistake here, especially since we don't have
>> to.
>>
>> Whatever things end up being called, don't confuse the
>> implementation(s)
>> with the language definition.
>>
>> Pm
>>
>>


-- 
https://www.facebook.com/vijayvithal.jahagirdar
https://twitter.com/jahagirdar_vs
http://democracies-janitor.blogspot.in/

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Darren Duncan]

If we assume the use of NQP is part of the project's identity, then yes that 
makes sense.  Historically that wasn't the case, eg the earlier Rakudo were 
written to Parrot PIR directly, and there's the possibility this could change 
again, though I see that as unlikely.  Not a bad idea. -- Darren Duncan


On 2018-02-16 3:07 AM, Lloyd Fournier wrote:
I'm about to publish some blog posts with using Perl 6  to demonstrate some 
cryptographic primitives. I was thinking about calling it "rakudo" to at least 
intrigue people and make them google it. Couldn't we call the language rakudo 
and the implementation nqp-rakudo? (ie a rakudo implementation in nqp)


LL


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 5:02 AM Patrick R. Michaud wrote:

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 05:55:54PM +, raiph mellor wrote:
 > (Perl) Rakudo
 > ===
 >
 > If jnthn and pmichaud and larry can warm to this idea, then:
 > [...]
 > The 'Perl' could be dropped from Rakudo specific propaganda,
 > calling the language just Rakudo instead, to reinforce that it refers
 > to 6e and beyond. But the Perl could be retained in any material
 > covering both Raptor and Rakudo as a reunified tech / community.

FWIW, I am VERY MUCH AGAINST the idea of naming a language after its
implementation.  I've seen the confusion it causes in other environments and
we ought not repeat that mistake here, especially since we don't have to.

Whatever things end up being called, don't confuse the implementation(s)
with the language definition.

Pm

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Lloyd Fournier]

I'm about to publish some blog posts with using Perl 6  to demonstrate some
cryptographic primitives. I was thinking about calling it "rakudo" to at
least intrigue people and make them google it. Couldn't we call the
language rakudo and the implementation nqp-rakudo? (ie a rakudo
implementation in nqp)

LL


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 5:02 AM Patrick R. Michaud 
wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 05:55:54PM +, raiph mellor wrote:
> > (Perl) Rakudo
> > ===
> >
> > If jnthn and pmichaud and larry can warm to this idea, then:
> > [...]
> > The 'Perl' could be dropped from Rakudo specific propaganda,
> > calling the language just Rakudo instead, to reinforce that it refers
> > to 6e and beyond. But the Perl could be retained in any material
> > covering both Raptor and Rakudo as a reunified tech / community.
>
> FWIW, I am VERY MUCH AGAINST the idea of naming a language after its
> implementation.  I've seen the confusion it causes in other environments
> and we ought not repeat that mistake here, especially since we don't have
> to.
>
> Whatever things end up being called, don't confuse the implementation(s)
> with the language definition.
>
> Pm
>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 05:55:54PM +, raiph mellor wrote:
> (Perl) Rakudo
> ===
> 
> If jnthn and pmichaud and larry can warm to this idea, then:
> [...]
> The 'Perl' could be dropped from Rakudo specific propaganda,
> calling the language just Rakudo instead, to reinforce that it refers
> to 6e and beyond. But the Perl could be retained in any material
> covering both Raptor and Rakudo as a reunified tech / community.

FWIW, I am VERY MUCH AGAINST the idea of naming a language after its 
implementation.  I've seen the confusion it causes in other environments and we 
ought not repeat that mistake here, especially since we don't have to.

Whatever things end up being called, don't confuse the implementation(s) with 
the language definition.

Pm

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[raiph mellor]

Another 2 or 3 pennies^1 worth of strawman proposing / bikeshedding /
flight of marketing fancy about naming etc:

Perl's Rapture
===

Imagine we officially embarked on a year+ long communal process in
which we (TPF and Perl community) sort out branding and marketing of
Perlish languages. A key goal is to have everything as clear as we can
manage before Python 2.x official EOL. We not only make it clear how
P5 and P6 are different and how they are related but also how they sit
in contrast to Python, C/C++, Java, JS and other langs trying to evolve.

I think "Perl's Rapture" would be a fun and helpful name for this process.
I'm an atheist, or nearly so, but I can't think of something that beats the
several fun and interesting elements/parallels I see in the Wikipedia intro
in its Rapture page.^2

Perl Raptor
=

This is my proposal for Perl 5.30 and beyond.

It's an existing semi-official alternate name for P5, with a logo
hosted at TPF's website.^3

The 'Perl' could generally / increasingly be dropped from propaganda,
calling the language just Raptor instead, when that's helpful for reinforcing
that it's officially for refering to 5.30 and beyond.

I'm thinking there would be a switch from use of the Velociraptor to a
raptor bird logo, with a new logo competition, emphasizing smallness,
evolutionary fitness, speed etc, but perhaps I'm now weighing in with
3p instead of 2p and that might be a tad too rich.

(Perl) Rakudo
===

If jnthn and pmichaud and larry can warm to this idea, then:

This is my proposal for 6e+ (My sense is we'd be better off letting
P6 mature for another couple years, avoid unduly undercutting the
wave of books with Perl 6 in their title, and wait till after we get a
round of Perl Raptor branding impact / marketing, and instead hold
the noisy push till 6e around the time Python folk EOL Python 2.x.)

The 'Perl' could be dropped from Rakudo specific propaganda,
calling the language just Rakudo instead, to reinforce that it refers
to 6e and beyond. But the Perl could be retained in any material
covering both Raptor and Rakudo as a reunified tech / community.

-

^1 I've just arrived back in Britain after 25 years in the US.

^2 Excerpts from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture intro:

The Rapture is an eschatological term used by certain Christians ...

... meaning to snatch away or seize
[from what?]

... used by certain believers ... viewing it as preceding the Second
Coming and followed by a thousand year millennial kingdom
[cf 100 year language]

... there are differing viewpoints about the exact timing of the purported event
[at official Python 2.x EOL?]

... There are differing views ... whether it will occur in one event or two
[Raptor relaunch of P5... Rakudo relaunch of P6...]

... the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin ... —"we
will be caught up"
[It's going to be fascinating to see what happens in 2020s re Python vs Perl in
particular and Hindley Milner static typing vs nominal static/dynamic typing]

^3 http://news.perlfoundation.org/2012/12/the-first-twenty-five-years.html

love to all, raiph

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Ruud H.G. van Tol]

Don't type here.

On 2018-02-10 05:16, Parrot Raiser wrote:

On 2/10/18, Darren Duncan  wrote:



I think if we want to keep "Perl" in the name we should use "C" as a precedent.
Other related languages keeping "C" include "Objective C", "C#", "C++",


Perl++ would work.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6
doesn't explain well what makes "Perl_6" special and convenient.

Have a list of specialties, like:
- hyper-operators
- ...

and then use that to inspire a name, like:

PerlZ (toothpaste)
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22perlz%22+-perla=ffab=web

*HyPerl*
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22hyperl%22+-hyper+-hyperlink+-hyperlinks+-hyperlipidemia+-hyperlite+-hyperloop+-hyperlynx+-hypertension=ffab=web

Plector (in use)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plector

Mu-Perl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(letter)

Perlite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perlite

Perlang https://www.google.com.my/maps/place/Perlang

Etc.

I still like 'Onion'.
And 'Perl6' (without any separator).


-- Greetings, Ruud

So also think about search engines. Remember "go, golang" (IMO DOA).

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Darren Duncan]

Bad idea.  There should not be any number in the name, in any way shape or form. 
 No six, no ten, or any other.  Differentiating factors should be something not 
a number. -- Darren Duncan


On 2018-02-09 9:15 PM, Brent Laabs wrote:

Might as well follow Apple and Microsoft and call it Perl Ten.  Yes, spelled 
out.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Parrot Raiser wrote:

On 2/10/18, Darren Duncan wrote:

> I think if we want to keep "Perl" in the name we should use "C" as a 
precedent.
> Other related languages keeping "C" include "Objective C", "C#", "C++",
> >

Perl++ would work.

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Brent Laabs]

Might as well follow Apple and Microsoft and call it Perl Ten.  Yes,
spelled out.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Parrot Raiser <1parr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/10/18, Darren Duncan  wrote:
>
> > I think if we want to keep "Perl" in the name we should use "C" as a
> precedent.
> > Other related languages keeping "C" include "Objective C", "C#", "C++",
> > >
>
> Perl++ would work.
>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Parrot Raiser]

On 2/10/18, Darren Duncan  wrote:

> I think if we want to keep "Perl" in the name we should use "C" as a 
> precedent.
> Other related languages keeping "C" include "Objective C", "C#", "C++",
> >

Perl++ would work.

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Steve Pitchford]

Ok. So here is something revolutionary.

Free up "Perl 6" for a future generation of Perl 5 and remove the ceiling
on the perl 5 language. Perl 6 has become more than a major iteration,
hasn't it?

Perl on parrot
Perl on jam
Perl on mono

Lots of space for a five from six once you vacate the lot.

Reposition as not so much a sequel as a spin off, a "b side". Some b-sides
have eclipsed the inspiration. Sometimes letting go is what counts.

Steve

( I continually admire from afar what has been achieved and surfaced in the
voyage of discovery that is YOUR language )


On 9 Feb 2018 10:34 pm, "Darren Duncan"  wrote:

> On 2018-02-09 12:55 PM, Eaglestone, Robert J wrote:
>
>> I think a name change is too radical. /And yet/.
>>
>> I think Steve has a point, though I don’t know what to do about it.  The
>> developers in my little corner of the world may not be up on the
>> new-language-of-the-week, but even they see Perl as a has-been, write-only
>> language, so when their brain matches /perl/i they automatically toss it in
>> the bit bucket.  Some of them are too nice to say it outright.  Some aren’t.
>>
>
> Personally I think having the "6" as part of the name is the worst part of
> the situation.  Its too confusing with a version number.
>
> I think if we want to keep "Perl" in the name we should use "C" as a
> precedent. Other related languages keeping "C" include "Objective C", "C#",
> "C++", and its much more clear those are separate languages, even if
> C-alike.
>
> So one way or another, "6" should be dropped from the name of the language
> formally.  Then we either have "Foo Perl" or "Perl Foo" or "Foo".
>
> After this is done, regular "Perl" can also be free to increment its first
> version number for major releases (albeit skipping 6 to avoid confusion)
> just as Postgres and many other projects do these days, as staying at 5.x
> forever is weird.
>
> -- Darren Duncan
>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Darren Duncan]

On 2018-02-09 12:55 PM, Eaglestone, Robert J wrote:

I think a name change is too radical. /And yet/.

I think Steve has a point, though I don’t know what to do about it.  The 
developers in my little corner of the world may not be up on the 
new-language-of-the-week, but even they see Perl as a has-been, write-only 
language, so when their brain matches /perl/i they automatically toss it in the 
bit bucket.  Some of them are too nice to say it outright.  Some aren’t.


Personally I think having the "6" as part of the name is the worst part of the 
situation.  Its too confusing with a version number.


I think if we want to keep "Perl" in the name we should use "C" as a precedent. 
Other related languages keeping "C" include "Objective C", "C#", "C++", and its 
much more clear those are separate languages, even if C-alike.


So one way or another, "6" should be dropped from the name of the language 
formally.  Then we either have "Foo Perl" or "Perl Foo" or "Foo".


After this is done, regular "Perl" can also be free to increment its first 
version number for major releases (albeit skipping 6 to avoid confusion) just as 
Postgres and many other projects do these days, as staying at 5.x forever is weird.


-- Darren Duncan

RE: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Eaglestone, Robert J]

I think a name change is too radical.  And yet.

I think Steve has a point, though I don’t know what to do about it.  The 
developers in my little corner of the world may not be up on the 
new-language-of-the-week, but even they see Perl as a has-been, write-only 
language, so when their brain matches /perl/i they automatically toss it in the 
bit bucket.  Some of them are too nice to say it outright.  Some aren’t.

Six.

From: Steve Pitchford [mailto:steve.pitchf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 2:08 PM
To: Lucas Buchala <lucasbuch...@gmail.com>
Cc: Perl6 <perl6-langu...@perl.org>
Subject: Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of CA. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
Thought the conversation felt like bikeshedding but... My point still stands. 
This is a new language targetted at a post php world. The significance of a 
version number will be lost outside the perl echo chamber and in that context 
seen as baggage... IMHO... YMMV...

On 9 Feb 2018 6:15 pm, "Lucas Buchala" 
<lucasbuch...@gmail.com<mailto:lucasbuch...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I doubt the name is "up for discussion" just because there's a blog
post about it. The name ain't changing ever, or at least that's how I
understand things. But, please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Sure, you can have as many alternative nicknames and aliases as you
want (for marketing purposes?), but the official name won't change.
So, move on, folks.

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Steve Pitchford]

Thought the conversation felt like bikeshedding but... My point still
stands. This is a new language targetted at a post php world. The
significance of a version number will be lost outside the perl echo chamber
and in that context seen as baggage... IMHO... YMMV...

On 9 Feb 2018 6:15 pm, "Lucas Buchala"  wrote:

I doubt the name is "up for discussion" just because there's a blog
post about it. The name ain't changing ever, or at least that's how I
understand things. But, please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Sure, you can have as many alternative nicknames and aliases as you
want (for marketing purposes?), but the official name won't change.
So, move on, folks.

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Lucas Buchala]

I doubt the name is "up for discussion" just because there's a blog
post about it. The name ain't changing ever, or at least that's how I
understand things. But, please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Sure, you can have as many alternative nicknames and aliases as you
want (for marketing purposes?), but the official name won't change.
So, move on, folks.

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Parrot Raiser]

Looking at possible candidates from a search-engine results and
alternative manings test. some possible choices:
 Mu,  (the root object class),
Camelia, (the spokesbug taking over),
Shesh, (the female form of 6 in Hebrew, but unfortunately also in the
Urban Dictionary - look it up for yourself).



On 2/9/18, Steve Pitchford  wrote:
> Well, for what it's worth, as an outsider - IMHO, leaving "perl" behinds a
> good thing. Love it or loath it, we live in a js/python/jvm leaning world.
> Perl was great, but it's dated. Why have the baggage? Rakudo is a new
> language. Treat it as such - best hope for it. In layman's terms an
> informal "Perl V2", ridiculous as that may be to the community.
>
> Steve
>
> On 8 Feb 2018 10:18 pm, "Darren Duncan"  wrote:
>
> My personal favorite resolution is to officially name the language Rakudo,
> full stop.
>
> The implementation that was/is using the name would be renamed to something
> else so it isn't the same as the language.
>
> Then we say "Rakudo" is a sibling language of "Perl", full stop.
>
> Then "Perl 6" becomes a deprecated alias for Rakudo, used informally rather
> than formally from now on, and officially considered a historical footnote
> rather than anything still cited in official documentation or marketing.
>
> The unqualified name "Perl" continues to refer to the original lineage
> (currently at version 5.x) such as what 99% of the world means when they
> refer to it.
>
> Remember, we can still say "Rakudo is a sibling of Perl" for all the
> reasons we currently do without actually calling it any kind of "Perl" as
> an individual; we don't actually lose the family thing.
>
> For documentation/marketing materials and to help with continuity, we can
> typically reference "the Rakudo language, a sibling of Perl", where the
> latter part is then more of a description.
>
> This is what I really think should and that I would like to happen.
>
> -- Darren Duncan
>
> On 2018-02-08 12:47 PM, yary wrote:
>
>> ...and "rakudo" even better by that criterion. And then there's how
>> "rakudo" is already named in many files, databases, websites, and that's
>> enough to make me think it's a "good enough" name. Though I'd like to
>> change that implementation's name to something else if we start calling
>> the
>> language Rakudo!
>>
>>
>> I quite like having the distinction between the language and its
>> implementations. No one confuses C with cc, gcc, pcc, tcc, mvcc, XCode,
>> or
>> Borland. Using the name "rakudo" to mean the language makes me feel a
>> little bad in that it muddies that distinction further, and gives this
>> current implementation a special status. A status which it earned, we're
>> not talking about calling the Perl6 language "pugs" or "parrot" or
>> "niecza"
>> for a reason. /me shrugs.
>>
>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Steve Pitchford]

Well, for what it's worth, as an outsider - IMHO, leaving "perl" behinds a
good thing. Love it or loath it, we live in a js/python/jvm leaning world.
Perl was great, but it's dated. Why have the baggage? Rakudo is a new
language. Treat it as such - best hope for it. In layman's terms an
informal "Perl V2", ridiculous as that may be to the community.

Steve

On 8 Feb 2018 10:18 pm, "Darren Duncan"  wrote:

My personal favorite resolution is to officially name the language Rakudo,
full stop.

The implementation that was/is using the name would be renamed to something
else so it isn't the same as the language.

Then we say "Rakudo" is a sibling language of "Perl", full stop.

Then "Perl 6" becomes a deprecated alias for Rakudo, used informally rather
than formally from now on, and officially considered a historical footnote
rather than anything still cited in official documentation or marketing.

The unqualified name "Perl" continues to refer to the original lineage
(currently at version 5.x) such as what 99% of the world means when they
refer to it.

Remember, we can still say "Rakudo is a sibling of Perl" for all the
reasons we currently do without actually calling it any kind of "Perl" as
an individual; we don't actually lose the family thing.

For documentation/marketing materials and to help with continuity, we can
typically reference "the Rakudo language, a sibling of Perl", where the
latter part is then more of a description.

This is what I really think should and that I would like to happen.

-- Darren Duncan

On 2018-02-08 12:47 PM, yary wrote:

> ...and "rakudo" even better by that criterion. And then there's how
> "rakudo" is already named in many files, databases, websites, and that's
> enough to make me think it's a "good enough" name. Though I'd like to
> change that implementation's name to something else if we start calling the
> language Rakudo!
>
>
> I quite like having the distinction between the language and its
> implementations. No one confuses C with cc, gcc, pcc, tcc, mvcc, XCode, or
> Borland. Using the name "rakudo" to mean the language makes me feel a
> little bad in that it muddies that distinction further, and gives this
> current implementation a special status. A status which it earned, we're
> not talking about calling the Perl6 language "pugs" or "parrot" or "niecza"
> for a reason. /me shrugs.
>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Darren Duncan]

My personal favorite resolution is to officially name the language Rakudo, full 
stop.


The implementation that was/is using the name would be renamed to something else 
so it isn't the same as the language.


Then we say "Rakudo" is a sibling language of "Perl", full stop.

Then "Perl 6" becomes a deprecated alias for Rakudo, used informally rather than 
formally from now on, and officially considered a historical footnote rather 
than anything still cited in official documentation or marketing.


The unqualified name "Perl" continues to refer to the original lineage 
(currently at version 5.x) such as what 99% of the world means when they refer 
to it.


Remember, we can still say "Rakudo is a sibling of Perl" for all the reasons we 
currently do without actually calling it any kind of "Perl" as an individual; we 
don't actually lose the family thing.


For documentation/marketing materials and to help with continuity, we can 
typically reference "the Rakudo language, a sibling of Perl", where the latter 
part is then more of a description.


This is what I really think should and that I would like to happen.

-- Darren Duncan

On 2018-02-08 12:47 PM, yary wrote:
...and "rakudo" even 
better by that criterion. And then there's how "rakudo" is already named in many 
files, databases, websites, and that's enough to make me think it's a "good 
enough" name. Though I'd like to change that implementation's name to something 
else if we start calling the language Rakudo!


I quite like having the distinction between the language and its 
implementations. No one confuses C with cc, gcc, pcc, tcc, mvcc, XCode, or 
Borland. Using the name "rakudo" to mean the language makes me feel a little bad 
in that it muddies that distinction further, and gives this current 
implementation a special status. A status which it earned, we're not talking 
about calling the Perl6 language "pugs" or "parrot" or "niecza" for a reason. 
/me shrugs.

RE: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Eaglestone, Robert J]

  *   What's the counter word for computer languages, anyway?

-mai?  As an abstraction from paper printouts?


From: Brent Laabs [mailto:bsla...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 2:51 PM
To: Aaron Sherman <a...@ajs.com>
Cc: yary <not@gmail.com>; Perl6 <perl6-langu...@perl.org>
Subject: Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of CA. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
Thanks for the summary of the high points, as there were a large number of low 
points in previous discussions.

Roku is not the only reading for 六 in Japanese, the kun reading is muttsu.  So 
we could become Mupperl.  What's the counter word for computer languages, 
anyway?


On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:15 PM, Aaron Sherman 
<a...@ajs.com<mailto:a...@ajs.com>> wrote:
I think this is a fine place, personally. Past discussions have included these 
high points as I recall them:


  1.  Perl is definitely the family name
  2.  Rakudo started out as the name of an implementation, but started to 
wander into being the name of the specific leaf in the family tree
  3.  Problem is that that leaves us uncertain of the status of 
non-Rakudo-the-implementation implementations. Are they now Rakudo too? That's 
confusing at best.

IMHO, 6 has always been the personal name, but it could be changed to something 
that's "sixish" without being an explicit number. Normally, I'd recommend 
Latin, but Perl Sex is probably not where anyone wants to go...  Roku is 
Japanese, but also the name of a popular device, and thus confusing...






--
Aaron Sherman, M.:
P: 617-440-4332<tel:(617)%20440-4332> // E: a...@ajs.com<mailto:a...@ajs.com>
Toolsmith, developer, gamer and life-long student.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:41 AM, yary 
<not@gmail.com<mailto:not@gmail.com>> wrote:
I recall coming across a post saying the Perl6 name is up for discussion - 
searched & found this post now 
https://6lang.party/post/The-Hot-New-Language-Named-Rakudo<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__6lang.party_post_The-2DHot-2DNew-2DLanguage-2DNamed-2DRakudo=DwMFaQ=_hRq4mqlUmqpqlyQ5hkoDXIVh6I6pxfkkNxQuL0p-Z0=YVtxbf12RluVb8ADnHy_ofdMa_3_X_0rVHmYLjfLBqc=xjlt4ZpgJ-W1LhQnUHvj3Ir60-gAB4cJzm8m3z5f5vk=Ybl6ExHYXeEAA-RlYnXA_XgJSLjWzu73tfNi_Sv-loc=>
 describes it. Is there a forum where the name's being discussed that I can 
read?
Woke up this morning with a name proposal that seemed to have a lot going for 
it, but from that post it seems Lizmat et al have a good choice already & I 
don't want to add to bikeshedding... wondering what the thinking is right now.

-y

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Aaron Sherman]

Just Mu would be an amusing Perlish pun based on Muttsu... Making the
interpretation either Perl "six" or Perl "most undefined".

I like yary's idea too.

Frankly, if Perl had an identity, I would not care about the name. I feel
like it lacks that right now.




--
Aaron Sherman, M.:
P: 617-440-4332 // E: a...@ajs.com
Toolsmith, developer, gamer and life-long student.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Brent Laabs  wrote:

> Thanks for the summary of the high points, as there were a large number of
> low points in previous discussions.
>
> Roku is not the only reading for 六 in Japanese, the kun reading is
> muttsu.  So we could become Mupperl.  What's the counter word for computer
> languages, anyway?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:15 PM, Aaron Sherman  wrote:
>
>> I think this is a fine place, personally. Past discussions have included
>> these high points as I recall them:
>>
>>
>>1. Perl is definitely the family name
>>2. Rakudo started out as the name of an implementation, but started
>>to wander into being the name of the specific leaf in the family tree
>>3. Problem is that that leaves us uncertain of the status of
>>non-Rakudo-the-implementation implementations. Are they now Rakudo too?
>>That's confusing at best.
>>
>>
>> IMHO, 6 has always been the personal name, but it could be changed to
>> something that's "sixish" without being an explicit number. Normally, I'd
>> recommend Latin, but Perl Sex is probably not where anyone wants to go...
>> Roku is Japanese, but also the name of a popular device, and thus
>> confusing...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Sherman, M.:
>> P: 617-440-4332 <(617)%20440-4332> // E: a...@ajs.com
>> Toolsmith, developer, gamer and life-long student.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:41 AM, yary  wrote:
>>
>>> I recall coming across a post saying the Perl6 name is up for discussion
>>> - searched & found this post now https://6lang.party/post/The-H
>>> ot-New-Language-Named-Rakudo describes it. Is there a forum where the
>>> name's being discussed that I can read?
>>>
>>> Woke up this morning with a name proposal that seemed to have a lot
>>> going for it, but from that post it seems Lizmat et al have a good choice
>>> already & I don't want to add to bikeshedding... wondering what the
>>> thinking is right now.
>>>
>>> -y
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Brent Laabs]

Thanks for the summary of the high points, as there were a large number of
low points in previous discussions.

Roku is not the only reading for 六 in Japanese, the kun reading is muttsu.
So we could become Mupperl.  What's the counter word for computer
languages, anyway?



On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:15 PM, Aaron Sherman  wrote:

> I think this is a fine place, personally. Past discussions have included
> these high points as I recall them:
>
>
>1. Perl is definitely the family name
>2. Rakudo started out as the name of an implementation, but started to
>wander into being the name of the specific leaf in the family tree
>3. Problem is that that leaves us uncertain of the status of
>non-Rakudo-the-implementation implementations. Are they now Rakudo too?
>That's confusing at best.
>
>
> IMHO, 6 has always been the personal name, but it could be changed to
> something that's "sixish" without being an explicit number. Normally, I'd
> recommend Latin, but Perl Sex is probably not where anyone wants to go...
> Roku is Japanese, but also the name of a popular device, and thus
> confusing...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Aaron Sherman, M.:
> P: 617-440-4332 <(617)%20440-4332> // E: a...@ajs.com
> Toolsmith, developer, gamer and life-long student.
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:41 AM, yary  wrote:
>
>> I recall coming across a post saying the Perl6 name is up for discussion
>> - searched & found this post now https://6lang.party/post/The-H
>> ot-New-Language-Named-Rakudo describes it. Is there a forum where the
>> name's being discussed that I can read?
>>
>> Woke up this morning with a name proposal that seemed to have a lot going
>> for it, but from that post it seems Lizmat et al have a good choice already
>> & I don't want to add to bikeshedding... wondering what the thinking is
>> right now.
>>
>> -y
>>
>
>

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[yary]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Aaron Sherman  wrote:

> ...
> IMHO, 6 has always been the personal name, but it could be changed to
> something that's "sixish" without being an explicit number. Normally, I'd
> recommend Latin, but Perl Sex is probably not where anyone wants to go...
>

Greek: ExiPerl / PerlExi (PerlExi sounds a bit like "perl lexer," which is
a good)

but that wasn't my thought for the name update. It started off as a variant
of "Plural" (Plerl) and evolved into "Perls"

- "Perls" looks and sounds like "Perl". It's Perl with one more letter.
- It's a contraction of "Perl six"
- Looking like an English plural noun harkens to the "more than one way to
do it" ethic.
- Looking like an English plural noun hints at the ideal of multiple
implementations.
- Easy to web search without false positives.

The thing is, Zoffix makes the point of moving to a name that doesn't sound
like Perl, by which reasoning "plerl" would be better than "perls", and
"rakudo" even better by that criterion. And then there's how "rakudo" is
already named in many files, databases, websites, and that's enough to make
me think it's a "good enough" name. Though I'd like to change that
implementation's name to something else if we start calling the language
Rakudo!

I quite like having the distinction between the language and its
implementations. No one confuses C with cc, gcc, pcc, tcc, mvcc, XCode, or
Borland. Using the name "rakudo" to mean the language makes me feel a
little bad in that it muddies that distinction further, and gives this
current implementation a special status. A status which it earned, we're
not talking about calling the Perl6 language "pugs" or "parrot" or "niecza"
for a reason. /me shrugs.

Re: Naming debate- what's the location for it?

[Aaron Sherman]

I think this is a fine place, personally. Past discussions have included
these high points as I recall them:


   1. Perl is definitely the family name
   2. Rakudo started out as the name of an implementation, but started to
   wander into being the name of the specific leaf in the family tree
   3. Problem is that that leaves us uncertain of the status of
   non-Rakudo-the-implementation implementations. Are they now Rakudo too?
   That's confusing at best.


IMHO, 6 has always been the personal name, but it could be changed to
something that's "sixish" without being an explicit number. Normally, I'd
recommend Latin, but Perl Sex is probably not where anyone wants to go...
Roku is Japanese, but also the name of a popular device, and thus
confusing...






--
Aaron Sherman, M.:
P: 617-440-4332 // E: a...@ajs.com
Toolsmith, developer, gamer and life-long student.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:41 AM, yary  wrote:

> I recall coming across a post saying the Perl6 name is up for discussion -
> searched & found this post now https://6lang.party/post/The-
> Hot-New-Language-Named-Rakudo describes it. Is there a forum where the
> name's being discussed that I can read?
>
> Woke up this morning with a name proposal that seemed to have a lot going
> for it, but from that post it seems Lizmat et al have a good choice already
> & I don't want to add to bikeshedding... wondering what the thinking is
> right now.
>
> -y
>