Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
Hi, I'm not a UNIX guru, but I don't know an easily installable solution for the problem. I would like to run just one Apache, and would like to run Perl as an Apache module. Chroot I think is not a solution for it. Running the script as CGI or running as much Apaches as much client you have is not a solution for me and for a lot of people. PHP offer an easy way to solve this problem. You obviously are talking about a web hosting environment with multiple applications and customers. Yes. I did not mean that chroot() was the solution, it is however part of the solution on the UNIX environment if you want proper security. I agree, but it cannot solve the problem (a customer can read the other's program), just using a lot of extra resources. Perl was the most famous web development environment some year ago, today PHP is that. I think one of I disagree. How do you support that blanket statement? This is my experiment in Hungary about web development. PHP is the most famous language, after it Java and .Net comes and Perl is after them. Hosting companies have very few "Perl clients", and they don't like them. We had a meeting (workshop, mini-conference) in Hungary a few months ago, and we talked about the Perl vs. PHP thing. We think that people choose PHP for web development 'cause it can be easily installed and you get results in a short time, plus it's hard to setup a Perl environment that's secure. I don't have any customers using PHP, they either use Java (some J2EE container, Oracle, BEA, Websphere, Tomcat) or they use Perl (CGI or mod-perl), etc. I have just PHP customers. ;) :( I agree with your statement if you are talking about small web-site hosting. 30 bucks a month for a website and you host 100 sites on a single shared server. PHP has a large share of that market, but for medium to large complexity apps, specifically commercial enterprise apps, PHP has very little presence. The marketing dollars are all behind Java and .NET. Totally agree. I guess it just goes to show we all swim in different ponds. I think, you are right. ;) Anyway, I did not mean to start a tangent, I want to see PHP run well on Parrot so we can agree on that. :) Anyway, I'm not talking about PHP. I'm talking about how I think Parrot and Perl 6 can be sucessful in the web development area. Bye, Andras ps: And I'm finished it. ;)
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 04:23:01PM -0400, MrJoltCola wrote: > >Perl was the most famous web development environment some year ago, today > >PHP is that. I think one of > > I disagree. How do you support that blanket statement? I politely request that we not have a Perl vs PHP popularity discussion here.
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
At 03:49 PM 4/13/2005, BÁRTHÁZI András wrote: I'm not a UNIX guru, but I don't know an easily installable solution for the problem. I would like to run just one Apache, and would like to run Perl as an Apache module. Chroot I think is not a solution for it. Running the script as CGI or running as much Apaches as much client you have is not a solution for me and for a lot of people. PHP offer an easy way to solve this problem. You obviously are talking about a web hosting environment with multiple applications and customers. I did not mean that chroot() was the solution, it is however part of the solution on the UNIX environment if you want proper security. Perl was the most famous web development environment some year ago, today PHP is that. I think one of I disagree. How do you support that blanket statement? I don't have any customers using PHP, they either use Java (some J2EE container, Oracle, BEA, Websphere, Tomcat) or they use Perl (CGI or mod-perl), etc. I agree with your statement if you are talking about small web-site hosting. 30 bucks a month for a website and you host 100 sites on a single shared server. PHP has a large share of that market, but for medium to large complexity apps, specifically commercial enterprise apps, PHP has very little presence. The marketing dollars are all behind Java and .NET. I guess it just goes to show we all swim in different ponds. Anyway, I did not mean to start a tangent, I want to see PHP run well on Parrot so we can agree on that. -Melvin
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
At 9:49 PM +0200 4/13/05, BÁRTHÁZI András wrote: Hi, An other question is, that how can you tell to the platform, to limit these features, maybe non-modifiable environment variables and command line parameters can be the ways of it. For that you need a full-blown quota and privilege system. Luckily there are plans for one. :) As far as boxing a VM into a sub-directory, etc. UNIX (chroot) and VMS make this a breeze since the mechanisms are builtin to the OS, it is Windows where all the work has to be done. I'm not a UNIX guru, but I don't know an easily installable solution for the problem. I would like to run just one Apache, and would like to run Perl as an Apache module. Chroot I think is not a solution for it. Running the script as CGI or running as much Apaches as much client you have is not a solution for me and for a lot of people. PHP offer an easy way to solve this problem. It's important here to note that when I said "platform" I meant "Parrot". (That was in there, but it's worth being clear about) That is, the platform is Parrot, not the OS parrot is running on, and Parrot is responsible for any security guarantees it makes. Now, it may make them by using facilities the OS provides (which makes the job easier) but it doesn't have to -- it can and will do it with no OS help if need be. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
Hi, An other question is, that how can you tell to the platform, to limit these features, maybe non-modifiable environment variables and command line parameters can be the ways of it. For that you need a full-blown quota and privilege system. Luckily there are plans for one. :) As far as boxing a VM into a sub-directory, etc. UNIX (chroot) and VMS make this a breeze since the mechanisms are builtin to the OS, it is Windows where all the work has to be done. I'm not a UNIX guru, but I don't know an easily installable solution for the problem. I would like to run just one Apache, and would like to run Perl as an Apache module. Chroot I think is not a solution for it. Running the script as CGI or running as much Apaches as much client you have is not a solution for me and for a lot of people. PHP offer an easy way to solve this problem. Perl was the most famous web development environment some year ago, today PHP is that. I think one of the reasons is this. (Anyway, Parrot and the Languages should work on all platforms, not just some - a lot of people using Windows as development platform). Bye, Andras
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
At 02:33 PM 4/13/2005, Dan Sugalski wrote: At 8:25 PM +0200 4/13/05, BÁRTHÁZI András wrote: An other question is, that how can you tell to the platform, to limit these features, maybe non-modifiable environment variables and command line parameters can be the ways of it. For that you need a full-blown quota and privilege system. Luckily there are plans for one. :) As far as boxing a VM into a sub-directory, etc. UNIX (chroot) and VMS make this a breeze since the mechanisms are builtin to the OS, it is Windows where all the work has to be done. Maybe Windows has matured since the last time I looked at this sort of thing, but most sys admins I know still prefer to run their JVMs, app servers, etc. in a UNIX environment just for this reason. Solaris 10 just took it to a new level with "zones" although there have been similar patches out there for BSD and Linux for a long time. -Melvin
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
At 8:25 PM +0200 4/13/05, BÁRTHÁZI András wrote: An other question is, that how can you tell to the platform, to limit these features, maybe non-modifiable environment variables and command line parameters can be the ways of it. For that you need a full-blown quota and privilege system. Luckily there are plans for one. :) -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
Dan Sugalski wrote: At 8:42 AM -0500 4/13/05, Timm Murray wrote: On Wednesday 13 April 2005 08:38 am, BÁRTHÁZI András wrote: <> I think that web development will be very important in the life of Parrot and Perl 6. One of the most important (at least as a server administrator) feature of PHP, is that you can lock the programs into a directory by defining "open_basedir". If the application try to open a file from a directory not defined in it, that there will be an exception. It's very useful for a hosting company, that two client's program cannot read each other. <> I think Parrot is the wrong place to solve this problem. It's better to be handled by the languages themselves. Nope, parrot's the right place to solve this problem, otherwise the problem's not solved. Security needs to be implemented by the platform (which, in this case, would be parrot) if you want it to work. I agree, that's why I sent this letter to this mailing list. Anyway, I think this feature would be very useful for all the scripting languages for CGI scripting and for mod_parrot, too (I'm missing this feature from Perl 5), and maybe not just for the web, but for console and other type of applications. Let me mention an other feature related to this topic: disabling built-in functions, because limiting file access by I/O is not enough, if you can use system(), `` and other things. An other question is, that how can you tell to the platform, to limit these features, maybe non-modifiable environment variables and command line parameters can be the ways of it. Bye, Andras
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
At 8:42 AM -0500 4/13/05, Timm Murray wrote: On Wednesday 13 April 2005 08:38 am, BÁRTHÁZI András wrote: <> I think that web development will be very important in the life of Parrot and Perl 6. One of the most important (at least as a server administrator) feature of PHP, is that you can lock the programs into a directory by defining "open_basedir". If the application try to open a file from a directory not defined in it, that there will be an exception. It's very useful for a hosting company, that two client's program cannot read each other. <> I think Parrot is the wrong place to solve this problem. It's better to be handled by the languages themselves. Nope, parrot's the right place to solve this problem, otherwise the problem's not solved. Security needs to be implemented by the platform (which, in this case, would be parrot) if you want it to work. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Parrot and the web (PHP?)
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 08:38 am, BÁRTHÁZI András wrote: <> > I think that web development will be very important in the life of > Parrot and Perl 6. One of the most important (at least as a server > administrator) feature of PHP, is that you can lock the programs into a > directory by defining "open_basedir". If the application try to open a > file from a directory not defined in it, that there will be an > exception. It's very useful for a hosting company, that two client's > program cannot read each other. <> I think Parrot is the wrong place to solve this problem. It's better to be handled by the languages themselves. pgpDgS4MhpGdH.pgp Description: PGP signature
