Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Timothy S. Nelson]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Marc Chantreux wrote:


On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 01:34:44PM +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, howard chen wrote:
What I think is more likely to happen in reality is that people will
make various Perl6 "distros", ie. the Perl6 core + whatever modules are
suitable to the purpose.  So we could have, for example:


 and confuse the users by adding more names in the perl6 world. There
is allready too much words about perl6. Please concider that a newbie
will hear words like PGE,perl6,rakudo,pugs,parrot,PIR,PASM ...


	Hopefully no newbie will hear of PIR and PASM once the final Perl6 is 
out.  And I assume that the distros are easier than worrying about 1001 
modules.



The next point, for me, is that distributions and bundles are just
useless: there are a lot of modules that comes with de standard
distribution i never used and i imagine that no sysop can imagine what
are *my* needs as netop:

- do i need to generate pdf reports to my boss?
- does my servers deal with apple or windows world?
- what kind of applications are running on my servers?


	Well, when I reinstall my machine every few years, there are a few 
software packages that I download and install.  But that's easier than going 
with Linux from Scratch :).  I'm not suggesting that this will be a magic 
bullet any more than Fedora, Debian, or Ubuntu is a magic bullet.



depending to the answers, a lot of modules that would be very important
for one sysop will be useless for me.

when i compare my expects to my observations of others computers users,
i thinks that the best way to distribute perl6 and make it popular is to
provide a minimal installation with a powerfull tool to discover and
install perl6 modules (as dpkg/aptitude/synaptic does).

searching by tags, description, names, using cpan as we use google ...


	Why bother creating a separate tool?  Let's have something that 
automatically feeds CPAN into repositories for apt, yum, and whatever.


Btw, in case you haven't seen it:

http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/Spec/S22-cpan.pod

If you haven't seen that, then you'll want to bookmark this:

http://perlcabal.org/syn/


Diamonds: Perl6 for the web distro (Web people make mony, buy diamonds)
Clubs: Perl6 for systems administrators (club users, before they club you)
Spades: Perl6 for gravediggers (??? :) )

Naturally, the "Diamonds" mentioned above would include a particular
templating system, some XML support, modules for various useful
protocols, and the like.



- my sysop tasks requires template systems, do i have to install diamonds?
 (i think that you think about install Clubs and adding templating
 modules but this is confusing for new people)


	Well, if I were designing Clubs, I'd have put templating in there 
already, but if that wasn't what had happened, then you'd do exactly as you 
said; install Clubs, plus a templating system.



- my minimal set for Diamonds contains LMTP,IPP,XMPP,... but a lot of
 web developpers don't deal with them .. so what to choose ?


	Hmm.  Well, while I think most web developers would want something 
that does e-mail (LMTP), the others would be, as you said, things that people 
would add on to Diamonds.



I guess I can see the value in many of the existing templating systems,
but would like to see a single one designed in a "postmodern" fashion
that can accomodate the supporters of all existing templating systems.


this could be called Utopia!


Quite possibly.  See my other post for more details.


-
| Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is,|
| E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au| I am   |
-

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Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Timothy S. Nelson]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Dan Stephenson wrote:


Wouldn't HTML::Mason ( or something like it ) be a better approach to solving 
this problem
in Perl6?  I'm a huge Mason fan and feel it answers the use cases being stated 
here aptly.
 Something like this could be included in this "diamond" Perl6 distro...


I'm a big HTML::Mason fan too, but there are still questions:
-   If HTML::Mason is so great, why are there other templating toolkits?
-   HTML::Mason may be great for HTML, but what about for eg. templating
config files?

	My thought is that it would be wonderful if there were a single 
central, highly-configurable templating module that would be usable in all 
contexts, and if the other templating systems were all built around this 
module, then, rather than having 4 or 5 teams duplicating each others' work, 
they could all work together on producing one really great module.


	Then something like HTML::Mason could be built around the really great 
core templating module.  Template::Toolkit ccould also be built around it. 
Text::Template would no longer be necessary, because all of its functionality 
would be supported by the great templating module.


	This way, though, if the Template::Toolkit people wanted more speed, 
and implemented caching for the central templating module, then the 
HTML::Mason people would be able to draw on this too, and vice versa.


:)


-
| Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is,|
| E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au| I am   |
-

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Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Richard Hainsworth]

Marc Chantreux wrote:

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 01:34:44PM +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
  

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, howard chen wrote:
	What I think is more likely to happen in reality is that people will  
make various Perl6 "distros", ie. the Perl6 core + whatever modules are  
suitable to the purpose.  So we could have, for example:



... and confuse the users by adding more names in the perl6 world. There
is allready too much words about perl6. Please concider that a newbie
will hear words like PGE,perl6,rakudo,pugs,parrot,PIR,PASM ... 


The next point, for me, is that distributions and bundles are just
useless: there are a lot of modules that comes with de standard
distribution i never used and i imagine that no sysop can imagine what
are *my* needs as netop:
  

Is this not the aim of CPAN6? Making distribution easier?

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Marc Chantreux]

Hello world, 

I never posted here and never contributed to perl6 in any way but i
would like to share my mind about it ...

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 01:34:44PM +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, howard chen wrote:
>   What I think is more likely to happen in reality is that people will  
> make various Perl6 "distros", ie. the Perl6 core + whatever modules are  
> suitable to the purpose.  So we could have, for example:

... and confuse the users by adding more names in the perl6 world. There
is allready too much words about perl6. Please concider that a newbie
will hear words like PGE,perl6,rakudo,pugs,parrot,PIR,PASM ... 

The next point, for me, is that distributions and bundles are just
useless: there are a lot of modules that comes with de standard
distribution i never used and i imagine that no sysop can imagine what
are *my* needs as netop:

- do i need to generate pdf reports to my boss?
- does my servers deal with apple or windows world? 
- what kind of applications are running on my servers? 

depending to the answers, a lot of modules that would be very important
for one sysop will be useless for me.

when i compare my expects to my observations of others computers users,
i thinks that the best way to distribute perl6 and make it popular is to
provide a minimal installation with a powerfull tool to discover and
install perl6 modules (as dpkg/aptitude/synaptic does).

searching by tags, description, names, using cpan as we use google ...

> Diamonds: Perl6 for the web distro (Web people make mony, buy diamonds)
> Clubs: Perl6 for systems administrators (club users, before they club you)
> Spades: Perl6 for gravediggers (??? :) )
>
>   Naturally, the "Diamonds" mentioned above would include a particular  
> templating system, some XML support, modules for various useful 
> protocols, and the like.
>

- my sysop tasks requires template systems, do i have to install diamonds?
  (i think that you think about install Clubs and adding templating
  modules but this is confusing for new people)
- my minimal set for Diamonds contains LMTP,IPP,XMPP,... but a lot of
  web developpers don't deal with them .. so what to choose ? 

>   I guess I can see the value in many of the existing templating systems, 
> but would like to see a single one designed in a "postmodern" fashion  
> that can accomodate the supporters of all existing templating systems.

this could be called Utopia!

regards
marc

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Илья]

Hi!

> The problem is how to get it popular and mainstream. The only solution
> is let make something standard. (or de facto standard such as RoR in
> Ruby)

The only solution -- make good web-frameworks. And so when we have one
we can pack all it`s stuff in one "distro" and wright good
documentation for it.

Rails is not standard or de facto standard for Ruby.
Rails just have good PR, it popular... we can say Ruby is standard for Rails :)

Perl6 is good language, make good application used it -- our works.

> In recent day, it is really difficult to hire good people to write cgi
> based web application...

Yes, because good people hate cgi-all-in-one-style application.

ihrd

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[B. Estrade]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 01:01:10AM +0800, howard chen wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Henk van Oers  wrote:
> >>
> >> It can be done as a library, take a look at Perl6 grammars.
> >
> > It has been done for perl5. See PLP on CPAN.
> 
> 
> Sure there are many way to do this in Perl already.
> 
> But better have a single, standard, and out-of-the-box solution.

Maybe you'd be interested in something that ActiveState makes available.  I 
also can't think of a reason why you can't start your own "standard perl" 
project.

> 
> 
> By making Perl a more developer friendly language to the web,
> definitely it will be a new wave..

...been there, done that.


Cheers,
Brett

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Dan Stephenson]

Wouldn't HTML::Mason ( or something like it ) be a better approach to
solving this problem in Perl6?  I'm a huge Mason fan and feel it answers the
use cases being stated here aptly.  Something like this could be included in
this "diamond" Perl6 distro...

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, howard chen wrote:
>
>  Hello,
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Henk van Oers  wrote:
>>
>>>
 It can be done as a library, take a look at Perl6 grammars.

>>>
>>> It has been done for perl5. See PLP on CPAN.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Sure there are many way to do this in Perl already.
>>
>> But better have a single, standard, and out-of-the-box solution.
>>
>> By making Perl a more developer friendly language to the web,
>> definitely it will be a new wave..
>>
>
>I agree, but I think there's a better way to go about it.
>
>My understanding is that Perl6 will not come with any modules at
> all, with the intent being that the Systems Administrator will them have to
> install some, rather than the current case where they install Perl, claim
> that they support Perl, and then never have the modules that you (ie. the
> customer) want.
>
>What I think is more likely to happen in reality is that people will
> make various Perl6 "distros", ie. the Perl6 core + whatever modules are
> suitable to the purpose.  So we could have, for example:
>
> Diamonds: Perl6 for the web distro (Web people make mony, buy diamonds)
> Hearts: Perl6 for bioinformatics distro (bioinformatics, heart, you get the
>idea :) )
> Clubs: Perl6 for systems administrators (club users, before they club you)
> Spades: Perl6 for gravediggers (??? :) )
>
>Naturally, the "Diamonds" mentioned above would include a particular
> templating system, some XML support, modules for various useful protocols,
> and the like.
>
>Having said all that, I think I'd be interested in seeing a core
> Templating module as the underlying module for all others (something with
> the functionality of Text::Template, but maybe a more powerful API), not
> just for use with the web, but for use in other contexts too (ie. the
> generation of config files from templates).
>
>I guess I can see the value in many of the existing templating
> systems, but would like to see a single one designed in a "postmodern"
> fashion that can accomodate the supporters of all existing templating
> systems.
>
>:)
>
>
>
> -
> | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is,|
> | E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au| I am   |
> -
>
> BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK
> Version 3.12
> GCS d+++ s+: a- C++$ U+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+ N+ w--- V- PE(+) Y+>++ PGP->+++
> R(+) !tv b++ DI D G+ e++> h! y-
> -END GEEK CODE BLOCK-
>
>


-- 
---
ispyhumanfly ( Dan Stephenson ) @gmail.com ::]

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[howard chen]

Hello,

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Timothy S. Nelson
 wrote:
>Naturally, the "Diamonds" mentioned above would include a particular
> templating system, some XML support, modules for various useful protocols,
> and the like.


Yes, I think no one argue whether Perl can be a modern, fully
functional web language.

The problem is how to get it popular and mainstream. The only solution
is let make something standard. (or de facto standard such as RoR in
Ruby)


In recent day, it is really difficult to hire good people to write cgi
based web application...

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Timothy S. Nelson]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, howard chen wrote:


Hello,

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Henk van Oers  wrote:


It can be done as a library, take a look at Perl6 grammars.


It has been done for perl5. See PLP on CPAN.



Sure there are many way to do this in Perl already.

But better have a single, standard, and out-of-the-box solution.

By making Perl a more developer friendly language to the web,
definitely it will be a new wave..


I agree, but I think there's a better way to go about it.

	My understanding is that Perl6 will not come with any modules at all, 
with the intent being that the Systems Administrator will them have to install 
some, rather than the current case where they install Perl, claim that they 
support Perl, and then never have the modules that you (ie. the customer) 
want.


	What I think is more likely to happen in reality is that people will 
make various Perl6 "distros", ie. the Perl6 core + whatever modules are 
suitable to the purpose.  So we could have, for example:


Diamonds: Perl6 for the web distro (Web people make mony, buy diamonds)
Hearts: Perl6 for bioinformatics distro (bioinformatics, heart, you get the
idea :) )
Clubs: Perl6 for systems administrators (club users, before they club you)
Spades: Perl6 for gravediggers (??? :) )

	Naturally, the "Diamonds" mentioned above would include a particular 
templating system, some XML support, modules for various useful protocols, and 
the like.


	Having said all that, I think I'd be interested in seeing a core 
Templating module as the underlying module for all others (something with the 
functionality of Text::Template, but maybe a more powerful API), not just for 
use with the web, but for use in other contexts too (ie. the generation of 
config files from templates).


	I guess I can see the value in many of the existing templating 
systems, but would like to see a single one designed in a "postmodern" fashion 
that can accomodate the supporters of all existing templating systems.


:)


-
| Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is,|
| E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au| I am   |
-

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Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Daniel Ruoso]

Em Sex, 2008-12-12 às 12:15 +0100, Carl Mäsak escreveu:
> Just as a heads-up, many of us in the November developer group are
> thinking quite a bit about web and templating issues. We already have
> a (fairly basic) working port of HTML::Template. Some of us have plans
> to create a web framework for Perl 6.

I'm pretty anxious to be able to use custom grammars inside Perl 6 and
port Catalyst to Perl 6, having something like:

controller Foo {
# this action would handle "/foo/bar/*", where "*" would be
# $patharg, and the named parameters would be the request
# params.
action bar($patharg, :$param1, :$param2) does Path {
# Catalyst already expects a context variable, $c, which
# contains the info for the current processing
$+c.stash. = 'bar';
}
}

daniel

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Guy Hulbert]

On Sat, 2008-13-12 at 01:01 +0800, howard chen wrote:
> But better have a single, standard, and out-of-the-box solution.

That's python, not perl.

-- 
--gh

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[howard chen]

Hello,

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Henk van Oers  wrote:
>>
>> It can be done as a library, take a look at Perl6 grammars.
>
> It has been done for perl5. See PLP on CPAN.


Sure there are many way to do this in Perl already.

But better have a single, standard, and out-of-the-box solution.


By making Perl a more developer friendly language to the web,
definitely it will be a new wave..

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Guy Hulbert]

On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 12:55 +0800, howard chen wrote:
> Wouldn't it be great to see if Perl6 support it?

Not necessarily.  PHP does a lot more than provide a template language.
I wouldn't touch perl6 if it went in that direction.

Perl6 lets you define your own grammar, perhaps that would do what you
want.

-- 
--gh

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Carl Mäsak]

Howard (>):
> Hello, I love perl for its rich set of modules but PHP is a better
> template language for
> web developments. Wouldn't it be great to see if Perl6 support it?

Just as a heads-up, many of us in the November developer group are
thinking quite a bit about web and templating issues. We already have
a (fairly basic) working port of HTML::Template. Some of us have plans
to create a web framework for Perl 6.

 

We'd be happy to see more people join our efforts, especially those
surrounding web development. A good first step for anyone interested
would be to download November (using the URL above) and try it out.
For those especially interested in HTML templating, the branch
new-html-template (containing out latest, not-yet-adopted
HTML::Template) might be of special interest.

// Carl

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Timothy S. Nelson]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Henk van Oers wrote:



On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote:


On 2008 Dec 11, at 23:55, howard chen wrote:

Hello, I love perl for its rich set of modules but PHP is a better
template language for
web developments. Wouldn't it be great to see if Perl6 support it?



It can be done as a library, take a look at Perl6 grammars.


It has been done for perl5. See PLP on CPAN.


	...or HTML::Mason, or Template::Toolkit, or even (if you're that way 
inclined) Text::Template.



-
| Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is,|
| E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au| I am   |
-

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Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Henk van Oers]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote:


On 2008 Dec 11, at 23:55, howard chen wrote:

Hello, I love perl for its rich set of modules but PHP is a better
template language for
web developments. Wouldn't it be great to see if Perl6 support it?



It can be done as a library, take a look at Perl6 grammars.


It has been done for perl5. See PLP on CPAN.

--
Henk

Re: Perl as a better web language ?

[Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH]

On 2008 Dec 11, at 23:55, howard chen wrote:

Hello, I love perl for its rich set of modules but PHP is a better
template language for
web developments. Wouldn't it be great to see if Perl6 support it?



It can be done as a library, take a look at Perl6 grammars.


--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH

Perl as a better web language ?

[howard chen]

Hello, I love perl for its rich set of modules but PHP is a better
template language for
web developments. Wouldn't it be great to see if Perl6 support it?

E.g.



as contrast to




Howard