RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Over our dead body! The whole world is still to solve that cursor movement problem, and you expect... I expect to solve that ourselves (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that* hard? We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will solve their problem. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 07:41, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to Hamzeh's! It's the same old one. Roozbeh Pournader himself. But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no ZWNJ on plural -Ha's? I tried doing it in the Academy's style, since we referring to the Persian Academy's style as normative. I personally hate that, and so do most of FarsiWeb staff, but we needed to be compliant here. Call that an experience... The Academy's style only puts kasre-ye ezaafes when there is a clear ambiguity. And it writes -haa without a ZWNJ. Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with Rezaa ending in long aa but with Mohsen ending in a consonant? I believe it is common to both write and pronounce the -e there between given and family name. Please inform me. Please note that the specification doesn't discuss pronunciations at all. That only happens in one case (toman), where it better serves as a footnote. At the same time, the Academy doesn't like the Kasras, so... If that doesn't answer your question, please ask it in a different way ;) By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards from left to right. I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets! I don't know what may be the problem. I would be enlightened if you tell about PDF tricks you may know that can solve that kind of problems. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [History] My Story, part 1 (1236 words)
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 10:08, Hooman Mehr wrote: The spelling used by Roozbeh is the official spelling used on someone's passport -- if he does not insist otherwise. I'm very sorry. I forgot that you spell it with oo. I insisted on Hooman spelling and got it even on my passport. So do I, with Roozbeh (but not with Pournader, which I prefer the way it is). roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a script that inserted all the kasre-ye ezaafes automatically (which worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book titles). Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source, something that tells you Democritus is zimeghraatis and Casablanca is daar ol-beyzaa? Specially if someone already has it? I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me. IRI is IRI, period. Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?! By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least theoretically. You don't agree?! roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Over our dead body! The whole world is still to solve that cursor movement problem, and you expect... I expect to solve that ourselves (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that* hard? So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will solve their problem. IRI is IRI, period. By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. roozbeh --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Th attachment should be a type, I guess. Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and not to this list? Best -ali- -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban inline: type1.gif___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:15, Ali A Khanban wrote: Th attachment should be a type, I guess. Yes, it is a typo. Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and not to this list? That means we appreciate it if it is sent to that email address. You're welcome to discuss any on-topic matter on the list of course. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:24, Ordak D. Coward wrote: What is the cursor problem exactly? Have you tried typing multilingual text in an editor like MS Windows' Notepad? The cursor, the selection, etc, are very hard to handle easily. You'll get mad very soon. And why is it hard to solve? Because: 1) You need to remain Unicode compliant w.r.t bidi algorithm. 2) You need to edit everything, from normal text to marked up XML or LaTeX, and expected behavior is different with different kinds of text. 3) Different users have different expectations, so you need lots of configurability for different kind of users in different locales. Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? No. Unless you start one. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:24, Ordak D. Coward wrote: What is the cursor problem exactly? Have you tried typing multilingual text in an editor like MS Windows' Notepad? The cursor, the selection, etc, are very hard to handle easily. You'll get mad very soon. Yeah, that one! And why is it hard to solve? Because: 1) You need to remain Unicode compliant w.r.t bidi algorithm. 2) You need to edit everything, from normal text to marked up XML or LaTeX, and expected behavior is different with different kinds of text. 3) Different users have different expectations, so you need lots of configurability for different kind of users in different locales. Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? No. Unless you start one. And, if someone starts a list, please add the problem of selecting a mixed text (english/persian) with a mouse. No matter what you do, or how experienced you are, you'll always get surprised. Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? so people would describe their problems /known bugs there? or am I just talking from _the_ unpleasant organ of my body? roozbeh cheers, Masoud ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Let me inject my foolish questions in the middle of this hot flaming discussion. What is the cursor problem exactly? And why is it hard to solve? Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? Hi there, Well, the cursor problem is not Persian-specific, but bidi-specific. The problem is that in a text editor with mixed right-to-left and left-to-right, you have a cursor and Left and Right arrow to navigate in the text. Now design the movement and cursor shape such that it behaves in an expected/easy to learn/predictable way. About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't have it anymore. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: And, if someone starts a list, please add the problem of selecting a mixed text (english/persian) with a mouse. No matter what you do, or how experienced you are, you'll always get surprised. Yeah, that's known as the twin of the cursor problem. Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? so people would describe their problems /known bugs there? or am I just talking from _the_ unpleasant organ of my body? No, you are talking about a very pleasant organ of your body ;-). The wiki is already planned for FarsiWeb, we can open a section to public. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
I volunteer to implement a web interface for the dictionary, Excellent! You'll have to make it so that whether the user types in bi[ZWNJ]kaar, bikaar, or bi kaar, the word will be found! Yes, that's right. This is relatively easy to implement. but I think we'll need other people's help as well, because I would guess the whole data would be *huge*. Will this require separate dedicated server(s)? (I'm thinking about Behdad and the Persian Digital Library here...) Hmmm, not necessarily *dedicated*. As long as there's enough web space for some part of the data to reside on the server, and I have access to it to install an application which processes the queries locally, it doesn't really have to be dedicated, unless the server's already fully loaded by other tasks. I don't think we'll need dedicated servers for this job. The process of searching can be done fast enough. - Ehsan Akhgari Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/) List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:19, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? That is *planned* for FarsiWeb's website. I'm sure Behnam Esfahbod and Elnaz Sarbar will announce here the good news about the new FarsiWeb website, when it became ready. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a script that inserted all the kasre-ye ezaafes automatically (which worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book titles). Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source, something that tells you Democritus is zimeghraatis and Casablanca is daar ol-beyzaa? Specially if someone already has it? These indeed look exciting, but in my laptop, not theirs. I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me. Sure, if it really stays with *us*. They'll be doing is what I asked if you still get excited about. Man, how many yours you have been in this business? IRI is IRI, period. Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?! No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results wasting oil money. You know I'm so disappointed about the National Persian Linux project. By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least theoretically. You don't agree?! I'm afraid not. I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically prove it can't be solved. But of course that would be theoretically, not practically. (that bidi is not reversible simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?) roozbeh BTW, guess enough of this thread. Find another interesting thing to continue this beautiful month. :-) Ok, Professor Yarshater, the author of the great Encyclopedia Iranica[1] is going to be around in two weeks. I may get the chance to conduct a short interview with him. So, ideas about what to ask, what to focus, is appreciated. [1] http://www.iranica.com/ --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:33, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't have it anymore. And I don't even remember doing it! :'-( When was it? :)). Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't nothing. roozbeh --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[Fwd: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)]
-Forwarded Message- From: Rick McGowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:03:48 -0700 The Unicode Consortium announced today the release of new versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1) and the Locale Data Markup Language specification (LDML 1.1), providing key building blocks for software to support the world's languages. This new release contains data for 247 locales, covering 78 languages and 118 countries. There are also 36 draft locales in the process of being developed, covering an additional 17 languages and 7 countries. For more information, see http://news.google.com/news?q=CLDR Regards, Rick McGowan Unicode, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: Correction: Found the Reader! You certainly did! I'm glad I asked. Go to: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html Select: English (Middle Eastern) Select your platform (It is available for Windows and Mac OS X) and the rest is as it should be. It forced me to first remove my more recent non-Middle Eastern version but I don't mind, it's worth it! Connie, try it with the PDFs that you have to see which one works. It works great on this one, for example: http://persianacademy.ir/books/Dastoor-e%20khatt.pdf The text can be copied and pasted into Notepad with no directional problems. However, it still does not work on many such as: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf What ends up in Notepad as only garbage. Obviously, it matters what software was used to create the PDF and I can't tell from the properties info what the Persian Academy used. Also can you come up with a cleaner version of this conversation an put it on your pages? OK! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
Please ignore this while I can successfully prepare a long e-mail with gmail :( On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:08:53 -0400, Ordak D. Coward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an implemenation. The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it seems to three categories of concren. 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An example, is when I type HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT, (where UPPERCASE stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor (denoted by |) and text appear as follows: | |EH ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents; There is a big difference between *we never write* and *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in certain situations. In this case, if the draft says says that one may not mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially for authors on book titles all time. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents; There is a big difference between *we never write* and *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in certain situations. In this case, if the draft says says that one may not mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially for authors on book titles all time. No this is not a new rule, nor the spec is wrong. They *never* write that in Iran. You may write mohsen-e rezaai only for example to distinguish it from mohsen-e rafsanjaani, but this way the two parts of the name are appearing as two different phrases, not one. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Kasre Ezafe in proper names, Was Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: Well, you were very helpful with the ghash-gir topic so what is your problem here? Here, I will ask this: Do you agree that sometimes you say, behdaad-e esfahbod and other times you say, behdaad esfahbod? (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) And my next question is going to be, when? Ok, as I said in another mail, you say behdaad-e esfahbod when you want to differentiate from behdaad-e pournader. Just that. That should keep you busy for a while! -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Kasre Ezafe in proper names, Was Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Ok, as I said in another mail, you say behdaad-e esfahbod when you want to differentiate from behdaad-e pournader. Just that. Akh! banging head on computer Good night, I'm going homeMaybe a sane person who knows the -e is used all the time in names will reply during the night. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else)
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:51, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Man, how many yours you have been in this business? I can't remember. Many. And seeing how little amount of output I have produced, I'm clearly a waster of my time, it seems. Come on. This is one of those tricks of yours ;-). I mean how many people you have seen *interested* in doing Open Source and left without warning... No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results wasting oil money. The project won't be run by IRI. It will be run by an NGO. I don't get all this NGO thing. The money it comes from oil, passing a handful of hops, divided by two a handful of times... You know I'm so disappointed about the National Persian Linux project. That project is generally wasting oil money, I agree. Better work can be done much cheaper with a much better quality. BTW, the Persian Computing community may be interested to see the technical output of certain projects there. I personally appreciate any discussion of the following documents here on this mailing list: Good (a specification and implementation for Persian fonts): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/10/opentype.zip Very good. Contains a list very good reference font for Persian font designers. BTW, their patched Pango is next to useless to me, since there's no patch provided, no information about when they did check out Pango, etc. Roozbeh, can you ask them for a set of patches instead? I can probably help feeding the patches to Owen Taylor. Bad (a specification for the Iranian calendar): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar3.pdf http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar4.pdf Not even worth the bandwidth! :(. Ugly (Compilation of some non-standard Persian fonts *released* by a project who is supposed to write a specification about requirements of a Persian keyboard driver for Linux): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/6/Farsi_Font_Linux_2.zip No comment. I'm afraid not. I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically prove it can't be solved. I'd be happy enough with that. I'll call that a solution. I know you will always be happy with this discoveries of mine :-). (that bidi is not reversible simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?) Can't get the idea. You need to elaborate. But it's OK with me if you want to close the thread. So I promise to go back to the joining code after this last reply :D. I was just saying that since bidi is not reversible, you can't predict the next cursor position, either in your logical, or visual string. Think a couple of seconds and you get the idea. Remember Gaspar Sinai's concerns about bidi in Yudit? Nothing really new, all I say is that there's no *perfect* solution out there. But that means nothing with the mess we have right now. On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:55, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't nothing. Yeah, that was not about Persian Computing. That was about internationalizing and localizing GNU/Linux software for Persian. I believe the GNU/Linux part has just been the medium. But Ok, it was not about details, but the big picture. So, we are all waiting for the wiki. BTW, I'm living with this song of Bob Dylan these days: http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/hattie.html TC --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
