Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Carl Karsten]

I would like to remind everyone that
a) we are all friends,
and b) we don't need to reply to everything.

Now for some humour

https://xkcd.com/386/ "someone is wrong on the internet"

Tail of Banana talk, just before Get me off your ... very strong language
https://youtu.be/eC9rmsI7dnw?t=1m32s
(I make videos of presentations, that is a friend giving me something to
test new video mixing software.)

And thank you list admins for doing your admin things, both technical and
soft.



On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Tom Lane  wrote:

> Geoff Winkless  writes:
> > On 22 November 2017 at 14:19, Vick Khera  wrote:
> >> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM
> unsubscribe rules. You should re-think this workflow.
>
> > CAN-SPAM only applies to commercial email, "the primary purpose of
> > which is the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial
> > product or service”. This is a discussion mailing list and as such
> > does not come under the remit of CAN-SPAM.
>
> Even if it did, you do not need a community account to unsubscribe,
> only if you want to adjust your subscription in some other way.
>
> regards, tom lane
>
>


-- 
Carl K

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Tom Lane]

Geoff Winkless  writes:
> On 22 November 2017 at 14:19, Vick Khera  wrote:
>> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe 
>> rules. You should re-think this workflow.

> CAN-SPAM only applies to commercial email, "the primary purpose of
> which is the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial
> product or service”. This is a discussion mailing list and as such
> does not come under the remit of CAN-SPAM.

Even if it did, you do not need a community account to unsubscribe,
only if you want to adjust your subscription in some other way.

regards, tom lane

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Stephen Frost]

Vick,

* Vick Khera (vi...@khera.org) wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Stephen Frost  wrote:
> > * Mike Sofen (mso...@runbox.com) wrote:
> > > Confirmed, I did not get a reset email either.  Also, I had subscribed
> > to the digest version and now I get individual emails - which is why I
> > needed to login, but my password no longer worked.  Sigh.  Mike
> >
> > I've replied to Mike directly off-list, but wanted to let others know
> > who might be concerned about the reset link- it *does* work, but only if
> > you have an account already in the system.
> >
> > It's possible to be subscribed to the PostgreSQL mailing lists without
> > having a community account.  If you find that you don't get an email
> > after going through the 'reset password' link, try creating a new
> > account instead.
> 
> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe
> rules. You should re-think this workflow.

To be clear- you do *NOT* need an account to unsubscribe, you need an
account to be able to manage your subscriptions and to change global
settings for your subscriptions.

As mentioned many times already, you can unsubscribe, without an
account, by following the link in each and every email that is sent by
the list server in the List-Unsubscribe header, as hundreds have already
done.  Further, an email can be sent to
pgsql-general-unsubscr...@postgresql.org to request unsubscription
without having an account.

And, lastly, if you wish to have any further discussion regarding the
mailing lists, please contact me directly, I believe we've gone over
this quite enough already on this list and it's not really what this
list is for.

Thanks!

Stephen


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Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Geoff Winkless]

On 22 November 2017 at 14:19, Vick Khera  wrote:
>
> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe 
> rules. You should re-think this workflow.


CAN-SPAM only applies to commercial email, "the primary purpose of
which is the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial
product or service”. This is a discussion mailing list and as such
does not come under the remit of CAN-SPAM.

Geoff

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Vick Khera]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Stephen Frost  wrote:

> Greetings everyone,
>
> * Mike Sofen (mso...@runbox.com) wrote:
> > Confirmed, I did not get a reset email either.  Also, I had subscribed
> to the digest version and now I get individual emails - which is why I
> needed to login, but my password no longer worked.  Sigh.  Mike
>
> I've replied to Mike directly off-list, but wanted to let others know
> who might be concerned about the reset link- it *does* work, but only if
> you have an account already in the system.
>
> It's possible to be subscribed to the PostgreSQL mailing lists without
> having a community account.  If you find that you don't get an email
> after going through the 'reset password' link, try creating a new
> account instead.
>

This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe
rules. You should re-think this workflow.

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Stephen Frost]

Greetings everyone,

* Mike Sofen (mso...@runbox.com) wrote:
> Confirmed, I did not get a reset email either.  Also, I had subscribed to the 
> digest version and now I get individual emails - which is why I needed to 
> login, but my password no longer worked.  Sigh.  Mike

I've replied to Mike directly off-list, but wanted to let others know
who might be concerned about the reset link- it *does* work, but only if
you have an account already in the system.

It's possible to be subscribed to the PostgreSQL mailing lists without
having a community account.  If you find that you don't get an email
after going through the 'reset password' link, try creating a new
account instead.

Once you have an account, you can go over to the
https://lists.postgresql.org/manage system and see any lists which that
email address is subscribed to and, further, add other email addresses
that you have control over (there will be an email sent to each address
with a link for you to follow to confirm that you do have control over
it) and then you'll be able to see the lists those email addresses are
associated with.

Hope that helps, as always, please feel free to contact me directly,
off-list, with any further questions or concerns regarding the
PostgreSQL mailing lists or your subscriptions or accounts.

Thanks!

Stephen


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Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Niels Kristian Schjødt]

The password reset form does not work. I do not get any reset emails when 
entering mine, so I can’t unsubscribe.

> Den 22. nov. 2017 kl. 04.24 skrev Stephen Frost :
> 
> Igor,
> 
> * Igor Korot (ikoro...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> Can anyone explain why?
>> Why not do what other ML do - provide the links in the footer?
> 
> This has been explained multiple times in multiple ways, including at
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce
> 
> Please drop it.  We won't be going back to having a footer and
> continuing to insist that the arguments outlined in the above post
> don't exist or aren't valid isn't going to change that.
> 
> If you'd really like to further discuss this, please take it off-list
> and contact me directly and we can chat about it, but this is not
> appropriate for this list any longer.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Stephen

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Igor Korot]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Jerry Regan
 wrote:
> I kind of agree with both.  Personally, my strengths are data communication. 
> Databases are frequent end points. Mailing lists? Have never had a need to 
> work with them, so they’re in the, “don’t care” bucket so long as they work.
>
> As far as missing , ‘unsubscribe’ in headers/titles, my totally unscientific 
> experience with a limited number of mailing lists (email, text, etc) gives me 
> the impression unsubscribe in header/title is by far the most common method 
> provided. Also seems simplest, but then I’m just a user...;)

This is exactly a point.
Every single ML has a links in the footer to either the ML archives or
to the (un)-subscribe page.

But apparently from now on PG lists will not have it and if you want
to unsubscribe from the list you will need to open a header (why?)
find the appropriate link inside a bunch of non-useful information and
copy paste it into the mailer.

Can anyone explain why?
Why not do what other ML do - provide the links in the footer?

Thank you.

>
> /s/jr
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 05:02, Tom Lane  wrote:
>>
>> John R Pierce  writes:
 On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
 I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self
 explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this
 works, -general has all the people that don't.
>>
>>> rotfl, and ain't that the truth.
>>
>> I'm not sure I believe it.  People reading any database-oriented mailing
>> list are going to be pretty tech-savvy, I'd think.
>>
>>regards, tom lane
>>
>

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:46:42AM -0800, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self
> > explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this
> > works, -general has all the people that don't.
> 
> rotfl, and ain't that the truth.

I know it's enjoyable to make fun of one's users -- those of us who
make the DNS happen have apparently made a career of it -- but I don't
think it's fair or likely to endear the database system I love to
those who might be coming from, say, the database system that employs
me.

I am pretty sure I know as much about mail processing as most of the
people who were involved in this change.  I apparently missed an
important announcement; that hardly surprises me given the volume of
mail I read, and I am pleased to have been corrected (and apologised
accordingly).

But pointing and laughing at your users and suggesting that they are
ignorant rubes is what causes people to turn their backs.  I am not
going to apologise for being offended by that.  It's a nasty thing to
do on a -general list.

Best regards,

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
a...@crankycanuck.ca

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Tom Lane]

John R Pierce  writes:
> On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self 
>> explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this 
>> works, -general has all the people that don't. 

> rotfl, and ain't that the truth.

I'm not sure I believe it.  People reading any database-oriented mailing
list are going to be pretty tech-savvy, I'd think.

regards, tom lane

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[John R Pierce]

On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self 
explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this 
works, -general has all the people that don't. 


rotfl, and ain't that the truth.


--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Stephen Frost]

Greetings,

* David G. Johnston (david.g.johns...@gmail.com) wrote:
> What would help the majority of readers is if a rule could be added that
> keys off of the word "unsubscribe" (and maybe some other key phrases) and
> dumps it into a non-public moderation queue where requests can be handled
> manually and prevented from reaching the list members.

This was already done.  Originally it was just against the body, now it
looks in the body and in the Subject.  Hindsight being what it is, we're
sorry we didn't have it in both places to begin with, but that's all
water under the bridge at this point.

We're now getting more emails on these threads than about either
PostgreSQL or people wanting to be unsubscribed.  Please, let's move on.

Thanks!

Stephen


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migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 08:40:08PM +0100, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> 
> Which is why the extra email was sent *after* the migration, to make sure
> it would be the first one *not* hitting peoples filters, and thus have a
> chance of being read even if the others weren't.

That surely didn't work, since the relevant people received that mail
after the migration had happened.

> So do you have any suggestions for actually fixing that? Given that we have
> more lists to migrate, if you can figure out a way to make those changes
> without peoples filters not matching, we'd be happy to hear it..

I don't have an answer for that, but I will note that if this
migration was announced weeks in advance I certainly missed it.  I
admit I was busy, but I can't find it in the mail I didn't read yet,
either.

Maybe a two week heads up that some time in the future the mail is
going to change (the same announcement as was sent) would help?

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
a...@anvilwalrusden.com