Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5, etc., etc., etc., etc., ....

[Berend Tober]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 01/13/2016 06:00 PM, Berend Tober wrote:


Whether or not it is a foregone conclusion that this community will
adopt a CoC, it seems like a mailing list is not the place to do
revision control. Can you people start a github project or something to
develope your ideas and come back when you have something solid, please.
This thread is creating a lot of spam.


The community discussion around this is not spam.


Yes, roger that. Bad choice of words. Surprising I didn't get CoC'd more 
severely.




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5, etc., etc., etc., etc., ....

[Berend Tober]

Bill Moran wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jan 2016 22:10:43 -0500
Tom Lane  wrote:


Kevin Grittner  writes:

I'm not the greatest word-smith, but I'll attempt to rework Josh's
draft to something that seems more "natural" to me.


Minor (or not?) comment:



Whether or not it is a foregone conclusion that this community will 
adopt a CoC, it seems like a mailing list is not the place to do 
revision control. Can you people start a github project or something to 
develope your ideas and come back when you have something solid, please. 
This thread is creating a lot of spam.






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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V7

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/15/2016 09:03 AM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote:


Joshua and all,

Because of the current political environment we live in, even though I am 
neither a Muslim nor a Jew I am a Baha'i, I think we should not discuss 
religion or politics on this forum. All such topics can be discussed privately.


I am sure most agree with you but that isn't what a CoC is about. It is 
about "if" it happens, what is acceptable behaviour.


JD

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V7

[Vick Khera]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 12:03 PM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet)
 wrote:
> Because of the current political environment we live in, even though I am 
> neither a Muslim nor a Jew I am a Baha'i, I think we should not discuss 
> religion or politics on this forum. All such topics can be discussed 
> privately.

Generally off-topic discussions are cut off pretty efficiently
already.  I think this CoC is more to the point of keeping things
civil while discussing the on-topic topics for each forum/list.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V7

[FarjadFarid(ChkNet)]

Joshua and all,

Because of the current political environment we live in, even though I am 
neither a Muslim nor a Jew I am a Baha'i, I think we should not discuss 
religion or politics on this forum. All such topics can be discussed privately. 

Thanks for your efforts. 

Best Regards


Farjad 


-Original Message-
From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org 
[mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Joshua D. Drake
Sent: 15 January 2016 16:03
To: Neil; Psql_General (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V7

On 01/15/2016 07:41 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> tl;dr;
>
>   * Cleaned up first paragraph, making it more succint
>   * Reworded last bullet a bit
>
>
> == PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==
>
> This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful, 
> productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to 
> contribute to the PostgreSQL community. It applies to all 
> "collaborative space", which is defined as community communications 
> channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, commit comments, 
> etc.).
>
> * We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.
>
> * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free of 
> personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.
>
> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants 
> should always assume good intentions.
>

* Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a pattern 
of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be tolerated.

Fixed a typo in the above (added word "be").

JD


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V7

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/15/2016 07:41 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

tl;dr;

  * Cleaned up first paragraph, making it more succint
  * Reworded last bullet a bit


== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful,
productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to
contribute to the PostgreSQL community. It applies to all "collaborative
space", which is defined as community communications channels (such as
mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, commit comments, etc.).

* We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.



* Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
tolerated.

Fixed a typo in the above (added word "be").

JD


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[GENERAL] WIP: CoC V7

[Joshua D. Drake]

tl;dr;

 * Cleaned up first paragraph, making it more succint
 * Reworded last bullet a bit


== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful, 
productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to 
contribute to the PostgreSQL community. It applies to all "collaborative 
space", which is defined as community communications channels (such as 
mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, commit comments, etc.).


* We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.

* Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a 
pattern of behaviour which could considered harassment will not be 
tolerated.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V6

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng.]

Please see my two suggestions below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Joshua D. Drake" 
To: "Neil" ; "Psql_General (E-mail)" 


Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V6



Hello,

I posted this earlier but ended up breaking my own silly rev scheme. 
So, I am going back to my silly rev scheme. Rev 6 it is:


tl;dr;

 * added being tolerant of opposing views
 * Removed excess wording from Grittner's version
 * Removed non-.org controlled spaces in first paragraph

== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document is intended to provide community guidelines for
creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in
a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.  It applies
to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community
communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
patches, commit comments, etc.).



It seems to me that the above paragraph is too long, especially 
considering that the following points are crisp short single sentences.


Also, why repeat the phrase "safe, respectful, productive, and 
collaborative"?


My suggestion -- make two paragraphs:

This document provides community guidelines for
creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
collaborative place. Every contributor is expected to support these 
goals.


The guidelines apply to all "collaborative space", which is defined as 
community

communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
patches, commit comments, etc.).


* We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.



I recall someone earlier mentioning the benefit of keeping discussions 
on topic.


And it seems to me that that only views actually expressed are of 
concern.


So I would offer the following revision:

* We are tolerant of people’s right to express opposing views relevant 
to the success of the project.



* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.

* Participants must avoid sustained disruption of the collaborative
space, or any pattern of behavior which could reasonably be
considered harassment.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V6

[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

I posted this earlier but ended up breaking my own silly rev scheme. So, 
I am going back to my silly rev scheme. Rev 6 it is:


tl;dr;

 * added being tolerant of opposing views
 * Removed excess wording from Grittner's version
 * Removed non-.org controlled spaces in first paragraph

== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document is intended to provide community guidelines for
creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in
a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.  It applies
to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community
communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
patches, commit comments, etc.).

* We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.

* Participants must avoid sustained disruption of the collaborative
space, or any pattern of behavior which could reasonably be
considered harassment.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Chris Travers]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Joshua D. Drake 
wrote:

> Updated.
>
> Tl;dr;
>
>  * Removed excess wording
>  * Removed non-.org controlled spaces in first paragraph
>  * Added explicit discussion on explicit problem with last paragraph of
> Kevin's last version.
>
> == PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==
>
> This document is intended to provide community guidelines for
> creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
> collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in
> a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.  It applies
> to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community
> communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
> patches, commit comments, etc.).
>
> * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
> of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.
>
> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
> should always assume good intentions.
>
> * Participants must avoid sustained disruption of the collaborative
> space, or any pattern of behavior which could reasonably be
> considered harassment.
>
>
> === END ===
>
> I have serious problems with the below[1]. My main concern is this and I
> am going to use real people to
> illustrate the issue:
>
>  * I am a left leaning realist with some libretarian leanings.
>(I voted for Obama)
>
>  * Andrew D is a left leaning lefist
>(He might vote for Sanders)
>
> We are both high profile contributors and often have public discourse
> on who is right or wrong. This is good. It is fun and we poke at
> each other but we continue to respect each other.
>
> However, there are people in this community that are far right
> and far left. It is not the responsibility of .Org to determine
> who is right or wrong there. Period.
>
> Now, how does this apply (as an example)? There are very loud people in
> this community who are pro-gay marriage and they are unable to respect
> those who don't agree with the position. There are also those who are
> anti-gay marriage that do the same.
>

Since this is a global project with a truly global contribution team it
actually gets worse than this because a lot of these issues are also
lifestyle/economic system issues.

I figure in this discussion it is worth mentioning my perspective as
someone who has now lived and worked on three continents.  Not only can
these political positions be *seen* as personal attacks, they can *be*
personal attacks and often times we cannot see eachothers' social realities
well enough to see that this is so.

I am going to use same-sex marriage to illustrate the issue because you
brought it up and also because it is particularly clear, but one could see
similar cases made regarding almost any major political controversial
issue.  I know a lot of people may see what I am writing below as
politically offensive   But my point here is about discourse and the merits
of "no personal attacks" not about the policies of one country or another.

In Western, industrialized countries, for the most part, marriage is seen
as an individual choice, whether one wants to have kids is seen as deeply
individual, divorce is seen as a key aspect of liberating women from men,
and men and women are seen as interchangeable.

In many other nations, marriage and children are seen as family duties,
gender is closely tied to kinship and how capital and resources are
divided, and married households are the seat of business and production
rather than primarily economically about consumption.  In these societies,
things like easy divorce, abortion, and same-sex marriage have very
different implications than in Western countries, and when you start
talking across international (rather than merely national boundaries) it is
hard for people to see where the others are coming from.

So it becomes very easy for an internationalized political stance to be
seen as obviously hostile to someone's desired way of life, and frankly on
many of these issues that goes both ways.  Far worse, there is truth to
that sense that internationalized political views are about depriving some
way of life of legitimacy.

So it seems to me there are two options.  The first is that political views
have no place in the community.  The second is that we expect people to
treat eachother with respect regardless of political differences.

Personally I am in the second camp.  I think the first is way
over-protective.  I think it is fine to shut out the crusaders.  But we
should recognize we are here to work together, come together, and do so
regardless of our differences.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers


>
> If someone stands up in a respectful way in a public place and argues
> a position, they should not be demonized or punished for that. I am
> 100% certain the below will cause issues. We need different wording
> if we are going to take that into account.
>
>
> 1. There is a distinction between words and actions taken within the
> communi

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[S McGraw]

On 01/14/2016 09:53 AM, Geoff Winkless wrote:
> On 14 January 2016 at 16:37, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
>> If someone stands up in a respectful way in a public place and argues
>> a position, they should not be demonized or punished for that.

I am not a contributor to Postgresql (tho I have contributed in 
small ways to other projects) so my opinion is worth less than 2
cents but...

I strongly agree with the above.

> I completely agree with you, unfortunately there are enough people who
> are so militant about their particular beliefs that they can make life
> very difficult for both the individual and the organisation they
> represents (cf eg Brendan Eich).
> 
> If you are well known (outside of the community) as representing
> postgres then I'm afraid extreme opinions will reflect on postgres,
> whether you like it or not. 

That can't be helped, people being the way they are.  It seems to
be a sad fact that many people are willing to use their free speech
rights to suppress the free speech rights of others.  But that is 
not IMO a good reason to submit to or appease them.

The Postgresql community could mitigate this somewhat by having 
a CC that explicitly states that the opinions and expressions of
its "members" do not reflect those of the organization or its 
other members.  Disclaimers like this are common in all sorts of 
organizations (eg commercial media) that present diverse points of 
views.  And the CC itself prohibits off topic and inflammatory 
opinions within the community boundaries.

> On the flip side, I imagine that being
> that well-known brings positives (job offers, paid - or at least
> expenses-paid in nice locations - speaking engagements etc) in return.

That trade-off should be decided by the individual involved, not 
by the organization.



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Adrian Klaver]

On 01/14/2016 09:11 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 01/14/2016 08:53 AM, Geoff Winkless wrote:

On 14 January 2016 at 16:37, Joshua D. Drake 
wrote:

If someone stands up in a respectful way in a public place and argues
a position, they should not be demonized or punished for that.


I completely agree with you, unfortunately there are enough people who
are so militant about their particular beliefs that they can make life
very difficult for both the individual and the organisation they
represents (cf eg Brendan Eich).

If you are well known (outside of the community) as representing
postgres then I'm afraid extreme opinions will reflect on postgres,
whether you like it or not. On the flip side, I imagine that being
that well-known brings positives (job offers, paid - or at least
expenses-paid in nice locations - speaking engagements etc) in return.


Right but here is the rub. Being anti-gay marriage isn't an extreme
opinion. It is a minority opinion for sure but it is certainly not extreme.

Another issue, consider the statement:

"We do not need more women in the community"

Some will say, "Well yeah, that's true."

Others will say, "You are sexist, you violate the CoC"

We have both of those in this community, and I would argue the "others"
are actually the ones violating the CoC. They are personally disparaging
someone for a perfectly valid opinion.


There is the faulty assumption that the whole CoC movement is based on, 
that the individual communities can control the conversation. You start 
down this path you have to accept the fact that you are letting the 
whole world into community and out of community conversations. I will 
leave to others to say whether that is good or bad, but it is a reality 
that you will need to deal with. In other words, should a CoC be agreed 
upon here, it will end up being subjected to editing from the world at 
large and you need to be prepared for that going in directions that you 
do not want.




Sincerely,

JD

P.S. before too many people get their hackles up remember that the word
need does not imply want or vice versa.





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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

tl;dr;

 * added being tolerant of opposing views

== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document is intended to provide community guidelines for
creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in
a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.  It applies
to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community
communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
patches, commit comments, etc.).

* We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.

* Participants must avoid sustained disruption of the collaborative
space, or any pattern of behavior which could reasonably be
considered harassment.

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Geoff Winkless]

On 14 January 2016 at 17:11, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> Right but here is the rub. Being anti-gay marriage isn't an extreme opinion.
> It is a minority opinion for sure but it is certainly not extreme.

Well it is - it's an extremity in the range of potential view points.

> Another issue, consider the statement:
>
> "We do not need more women in the community"
>
> Some will say, "Well yeah, that's true."
>
> Others will say, "You are sexist, you violate the CoC"
>
> We have both of those in this community, and I would argue the "others" are
> actually the ones violating the CoC. They are personally disparaging someone
> for a perfectly valid opinion.

Well yes, to say "you are sexist" is violating the CoC, because it's a
personal attack. The correct thing to do is to state that the opinion
is a violation of the CoC, without making any judgement about the
person making that statement :)

Geoff


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/14/2016 09:14 AM, Neil wrote:


The community needs to decide between the following:

1. Does it want to eliminate participation from people with strong but opposing 
views.

or

2. Does it want to enforce respect and tolerance that allows people with strong 
but opposing views to contribute.

I would rather have #2 because I have a strong regard for freedom of speech.  
The solution is clearer if this can be decided.


#2 of course and I don't think the majority would argue with that.



* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should be tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views and always assume 
good intentions.


Very nice.

JD



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Neil]

> On Jan 14, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> 
> Now, how does this apply (as an example)? There are very loud people in this 
> community who are pro-gay marriage and they are unable to respect those who 
> don't agree with the position. There are also those who are anti-gay marriage 
> that do the same.
> 
> If someone stands up in a respectful way in a public place and argues
> a position, they should not be demonized or punished for that. I am
> 100% certain the below will cause issues. We need different wording
> if we are going to take that into account.

The community needs to decide between the following:

1. Does it want to eliminate participation from people with strong but opposing 
views.

or 

2. Does it want to enforce respect and tolerance that allows people with strong 
but opposing views to contribute.

I would rather have #2 because I have a strong regard for freedom of speech.  
The solution is clearer if this can be decided.

For 2 a statement that the community respects the rights of people to have 
opposing or non-popular views as freedom of speech and since this project is 
non political we expect a certain amount of tolerance with regards to people’s 
views and opinions outside of their work on this project.

or 

> 
> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
> should always assume good intentions.

Could be.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should be tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views and always assume 
good intentions.

Neil

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/14/2016 08:53 AM, Geoff Winkless wrote:

On 14 January 2016 at 16:37, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:

If someone stands up in a respectful way in a public place and argues
a position, they should not be demonized or punished for that.


I completely agree with you, unfortunately there are enough people who
are so militant about their particular beliefs that they can make life
very difficult for both the individual and the organisation they
represents (cf eg Brendan Eich).

If you are well known (outside of the community) as representing
postgres then I'm afraid extreme opinions will reflect on postgres,
whether you like it or not. On the flip side, I imagine that being
that well-known brings positives (job offers, paid - or at least
expenses-paid in nice locations - speaking engagements etc) in return.


Right but here is the rub. Being anti-gay marriage isn't an extreme 
opinion. It is a minority opinion for sure but it is certainly not extreme.


Another issue, consider the statement:

"We do not need more women in the community"

Some will say, "Well yeah, that's true."

Others will say, "You are sexist, you violate the CoC"

We have both of those in this community, and I would argue the "others" 
are actually the ones violating the CoC. They are personally disparaging 
someone for a perfectly valid opinion.


Sincerely,

JD

P.S. before too many people get their hackles up remember that the word 
need does not imply want or vice versa.



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Geoff Winkless]

On 14 January 2016 at 16:37, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> If someone stands up in a respectful way in a public place and argues
> a position, they should not be demonized or punished for that.

I completely agree with you, unfortunately there are enough people who
are so militant about their particular beliefs that they can make life
very difficult for both the individual and the organisation they
represents (cf eg Brendan Eich).

If you are well known (outside of the community) as representing
postgres then I'm afraid extreme opinions will reflect on postgres,
whether you like it or not. On the flip side, I imagine that being
that well-known brings positives (job offers, paid - or at least
expenses-paid in nice locations - speaking engagements etc) in return.

Geoff


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5, etc., etc., etc., etc., ....

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/14/2016 08:30 AM, Adrian Klaver wrote:

On 01/14/2016 08:24 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 01/13/2016 06:00 PM, Berend Tober wrote:


Whether or not it is a foregone conclusion that this community will
adopt a CoC, it seems like a mailing list is not the place to do
revision control. Can you people start a github project or something to
develope your ideas and come back when you have something solid, please.
This thread is creating a lot of spam.


The community discussion around this is not spam.


Still, moving it off-list to a repo or the Wiki is a good idea. Then
those that care about this can wordsmith to their hearts content.


Meh. Those that don't want to read the thread don't have to.

Sincerely,

JD


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

Updated.

Tl;dr;

 * Removed excess wording
 * Removed non-.org controlled spaces in first paragraph
 * Added explicit discussion on explicit problem with last paragraph of 
Kevin's last version.


== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document is intended to provide community guidelines for
creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in
a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.  It applies
to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community
communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
patches, commit comments, etc.).

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.

* Participants must avoid sustained disruption of the collaborative
space, or any pattern of behavior which could reasonably be
considered harassment.


=== END ===

I have serious problems with the below[1]. My main concern is this and I 
am going to use real people to

illustrate the issue:

 * I am a left leaning realist with some libretarian leanings.
   (I voted for Obama)

 * Andrew D is a left leaning lefist
   (He might vote for Sanders)

We are both high profile contributors and often have public discourse
on who is right or wrong. This is good. It is fun and we poke at
each other but we continue to respect each other.

However, there are people in this community that are far right
and far left. It is not the responsibility of .Org to determine
who is right or wrong there. Period.

Now, how does this apply (as an example)? There are very loud people in 
this community who are pro-gay marriage and they are unable to respect 
those who don't agree with the position. There are also those who are 
anti-gay marriage that do the same.


If someone stands up in a respectful way in a public place and argues
a position, they should not be demonized or punished for that. I am
100% certain the below will cause issues. We need different wording
if we are going to take that into account.


1. There is a distinction between words and actions taken within the
community and words and actions outside community communication
channels and events, but there is a gray area when using public
forums or social media where a person identifies as a member of
this community.  Members of the community, especially those with a
high profile within the community, should be mindful of this and
avoid saying or doing anything in such venues which might create an
unwelcoming or hostile attitude toward the community.

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5, etc., etc., etc., etc., ....

[Adrian Klaver]

On 01/14/2016 08:24 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 01/13/2016 06:00 PM, Berend Tober wrote:


Whether or not it is a foregone conclusion that this community will
adopt a CoC, it seems like a mailing list is not the place to do
revision control. Can you people start a github project or something to
develope your ideas and come back when you have something solid, please.
This thread is creating a lot of spam.


The community discussion around this is not spam.


Still, moving it off-list to a repo or the Wiki is a good idea. Then 
those that care about this can wordsmith to their hearts content.




JD











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adrian.kla...@aklaver.com


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5, etc., etc., etc., etc., ....

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/13/2016 06:00 PM, Berend Tober wrote:


Whether or not it is a foregone conclusion that this community will
adopt a CoC, it seems like a mailing list is not the place to do
revision control. Can you people start a github project or something to
develope your ideas and come back when you have something solid, please.
This thread is creating a lot of spam.


The community discussion around this is not spam.

JD








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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/13/2016 01:27 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Steve Litt  writes:

To me it's simple...
Disallow "You "
Disallow "Your code "
Encourage "It would be better if your code  because
."


That's fine as practice, but I don't think we want to get anywhere near
being that detailed in the CoC per se.  If we start trying to write that
sort of rule, the CoC will be multiple pages long and no one will read it.
(I thought Kevin's last draft was already too long.)


+1



regards, tom lane





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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Tom Lane]

Steve Litt  writes:
> To me it's simple...
> Disallow "You "
> Disallow "Your code "
> Encourage "It would be better if your code  because
> ."

That's fine as practice, but I don't think we want to get anywhere near
being that detailed in the CoC per se.  If we start trying to write that
sort of rule, the CoC will be multiple pages long and no one will read it.
(I thought Kevin's last draft was already too long.)

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:15:45 -0500
"Regina Obe"  wrote:

 
> For example if Tom makes some snide remark like "Do all Bostonians
> program this way?"

Why not simply discuss the code, with no value judgment about the
coder?

"The strcpy() in the foo() function can cause intermittent problems and
open an attack route. Why not use strncpy() instead?"

Of course we all know there are some people who prefer to say something
like the following:

"Really? I mean really? People still use strcpy() in 2016? All but the
dullest know that opens an attack route."

For some reason, a significant percentage of people just LOVE to get
judgmental about the other guy's work product, rather than simply
showing a better way.

To me it's simple...

Disallow "You "

Disallow "Your code "

Encourage "It would be better if your code  because
."

Steve

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/13/2016 08:05 AM, Tom Lane wrote:


My general reaction to the rest of this is that it's got the right
idea, but it could be cut to about half the length and be better
off for that.  Short and sweet is the way, IMO.


+1


Less words, more point.

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Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Tom Lane]

Kevin Grittner  writes:
> I still feel it is more productive to discuss a proposed document
> than proposed language for some "motion to adopt".

Agreed.  We're trying to write a document, not a document about a
document.

> ... It applies
> to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community
> communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
> patches, commit comments, etc.) and to public events (such as
> meetings and conferences) which are associated with the PostgreSQL
> community.  Private communications which result from words or
> actions in the collaborative space should also conform to the
> standards stated here.

Magnus pointed out to me that (1) appropriate behavior in the virtual
space is not necessarily the same as appropriate behavior in physical
contexts such as meetings, and (2) most conferences already have their
own CoCs, which we should not be attempting to override.  So I'm
inclined to think that this CoC should be specifically about on-line
interaction, and explicitly leave it to conference organizers to set up
CoCs that work for their situations.

My general reaction to the rest of this is that it's got the right
idea, but it could be cut to about half the length and be better
off for that.  Short and sweet is the way, IMO.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Kevin Grittner]

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:04 PM, Joshua D. Drake  
wrote:
> On 01/12/2016 07:10 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Kevin Grittner  writes:

>>> * To maintain a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
>>> environment all participants must ensure that their language and
>>> actions are free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any
>>> kind.
>>
>> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
>> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y, and
>> Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.  "Of any
>> kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the "personal
>> attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be better?
>
> Hrm, I see your point but the definition of disparaging is:
>
> expressing the opinion that something is of little worth; derogatory.

Below is a modified version of what I posted, attempting to improve
it based on further thoughts of my own as well as suggestions from
Tom, JD, and Bill.  I see a lot to like in the variation proposed
by Chris, but wasn't sure quite how to meld that with this.  I've
left off the enforcement part for now.

I still feel it is more productive to discuss a proposed document
than proposed language for some "motion to adopt".  (I'm not sure
where such a motion would be made and adopted.)



== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document is intended to provide community guidelines for
creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in
a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.  It applies
to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community
communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted
patches, commit comments, etc.) and to public events (such as
meetings and conferences) which are associated with the PostgreSQL
community.  Private communications which result from words or
actions in the collaborative space should also conform to the
standards stated here.

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.  Critical
remarks regarding patches and/or technical work are necessary to
ensure a quality product; however, critical remarks directed at
individuals are not constructive and therefore not acceptable.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.  Consider that due to
language and cultural differences, something may be intended in a
benign or helpful way, even if some participants initially see a
possible interpretation which is otherwise.

* Participants must avoid sustained disruption of the collaborative
space, or any pattern of behavior which could reasonably be
considered harassment.

There is a distinction between words and actions taken within the
community and words and actions outside community communication
channels and events, but there is a gray area when using public
forums or social media where a person identifies as a member of
this community.  Members of the community, especially those with a
high profile within the community, should be mindful of this and
avoid saying or doing anything in such venues which might create an
unwelcoming or hostile attitude toward the community.



-- 
Kevin Grittner
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Chris Travers]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:

> Another anecdotal thing.  Personal attacks sometimes soften the blow. Take
> that as you will.
>
>
>
> For example if Tom makes some snide remark like "Do all Bostonians program
> this way?"
>
>
>
> It would lessen the blow of the criticism of the code as I would think
> he's making fun of Bostonians coding style more than he is about my
> abilities, and I as a Bostonian just don't know any better.
>
> He can also make fun of my tabbing style and say  "What's wrong with your
> editor? Perhaps you need to use a different one or change the settings"
>
>
>
> Although maybe those don't constitute personal attacks.  I don't know.
>

That's why I am not such a fan of rules and a larger fan of mediation,
discussion etc as an effort to work out issues.

>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Regina
>
>
>
> *From:* Regina Obe [mailto:l...@pcorp.us]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 13, 2016 9:08 AM
> *To:* 'Chris Travers' 
> *Cc:* 'Geoff Winkless' ; 'Psql_General (E-mail)' <
> pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5
>
>
>
> > On 13 January 2016 at 03:10, Tom Lane  wrote:
> >> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
> >> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y,
> >> and Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.
> >> "Of any kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the
> >> "personal attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be
> better?
>
> > One thing to think about here is the idea of framing the process.  One
> reason it might be a good idea to have a "respect the commons" clause is
> that it becomes a good way to think about the interaction of review and
> technical discussion.  I.e. both sides want to improve
>
> > the software.  The focus is on the software, not on the other person.
>
> > People *can* take offense when you say their code is not good enough,
> particularly when it is true, because for better or worse we do often
> identify with what we produce.  But I would hope that if the focus is on
> improvement of the software the this becomes at least a
>
> > bit less of a problem..
>
>
>
> --
>
> > Best Wishes,
>
> > Chris Travers
>
>
>
> Very good point.  I know personally I feel more hurt at my code being
> criticized than someone criticizing some random aspect of me.  That said
>
>
>
> Perhaps something like
>
>
>
> "we judge contributions primarily based on how easily it fits into our
> existing code base and the popularity of the problem or feature it targets"
>
>
>
> I was going to talk about correctness and all that, but I think that's
> kind of inferred by the comment about fitting into our existing code base.
> If it's not correct it wouldn't fit anyway.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Regina
>



-- 
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

Efficito:  Hosted Accounting and ERP.  Robust and Flexible.  No vendor
lock-in.
http://www.efficito.com/learn_more

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Geoff Winkless]

On 13 January 2016 at 14:15, Regina Obe  wrote:
> He can also make fun of my tabbing style and say  "What's wrong with your
> editor? Perhaps you need to use a different one or change the settings"

You're right, what we've really been missing all these years is an
editor flamewar :)

Geoff


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Regina Obe]

Another anecdotal thing.  Personal attacks sometimes soften the blow. Take that 
as you will.

 

For example if Tom makes some snide remark like "Do all Bostonians program this 
way?"

 

It would lessen the blow of the criticism of the code as I would think he's 
making fun of Bostonians coding style more than he is about my abilities, and I 
as a Bostonian just don't know any better.

He can also make fun of my tabbing style and say  "What's wrong with your 
editor? Perhaps you need to use a different one or change the settings"

 

Although maybe those don't constitute personal attacks.  I don't know.

 

 

Thanks,

Regina

 

From: Regina Obe [mailto:l...@pcorp.us] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 9:08 AM
To: 'Chris Travers' 
Cc: 'Geoff Winkless' ; 'Psql_General (E-mail)' 

Subject: RE: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

 

> On 13 January 2016 at 03:10, Tom Lane  <mailto:t...@sss.pgh.pa.us> > wrote:
>> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
>> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y,
>> and Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.
>> "Of any kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the
>> "personal attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be 
>> better?

> One thing to think about here is the idea of framing the process.  One reason 
> it might be a good idea to have a "respect the commons" clause is that it 
> becomes a good way to think about the interaction of review and technical 
> discussion.  I.e. both sides want to improve 

> the software.  The focus is on the software, not on the other person.

> People *can* take offense when you say their code is not good enough, 
> particularly when it is true, because for better or worse we do often 
> identify with what we produce.  But I would hope that if the focus is on 
> improvement of the software the this becomes at least a 

> bit less of a problem..



-- 

> Best Wishes,

> Chris Travers

 

Very good point.  I know personally I feel more hurt at my code being 
criticized than someone criticizing some random aspect of me.  That said

 

Perhaps something like 

 

"we judge contributions primarily based on how easily it fits into our existing 
code base and the popularity of the problem or feature it targets"

 

I was going to talk about correctness and all that, but I think that's kind of 
inferred by the comment about fitting into our existing code base.  If it's not 
correct it wouldn't fit anyway.

 

Thanks,

Regina

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Regina Obe]

> On 13 January 2016 at 03:10, Tom Lane   > wrote:
>> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
>> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y,
>> and Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.
>> "Of any kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the
>> "personal attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be 
>> better?

> One thing to think about here is the idea of framing the process.  One reason 
> it might be a good idea to have a "respect the commons" clause is that it 
> becomes a good way to think about the interaction of review and technical 
> discussion.  I.e. both sides want to improve 

> the software.  The focus is on the software, not on the other person.

> People *can* take offense when you say their code is not good enough, 
> particularly when it is true, because for better or worse we do often 
> identify with what we produce.  But I would hope that if the focus is on 
> improvement of the software the this becomes at least a 

> bit less of a problem..



-- 

> Best Wishes,

> Chris Travers

 

Very good point.  I know personally I feel more hurt at my code being 
criticized than someone criticizing some random aspect of me.  That said

 

Perhaps something like 

 

"we judge contributions primarily based on how easily it fits into our existing 
code base and the popularity of the problem or feature it targets"

 

I was going to talk about correctness and all that, but I think that's kind of 
inferred by the comment about fitting into our existing code base.  If it's not 
correct it wouldn't fit anyway.

 

Thanks,

Regina

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Geoff Winkless]

On 13 January 2016 at 13:55, Chris Travers  wrote:
> People *can* take offense when you say their code is not good enough,
> particularly when it is true,

Well I would hope that you wouldn't say so if it wasn't. :)

My point is that most people won't be posting code here going "this is
a bit crap, but I'll post it anyway". Chances are, especially if
they're new, they will have checked and double-checked it beforehand.
Any things that are "not good enough", as you say, are likely to be
things that they couldn't really be expected to have known, given
their limited experience of the codebase.

So all I'm saying is: try to be gentle and encouraging, rather than
blunt and critical.

> But I would hope that if the focus is on
> improvement of the software the this becomes at least a bit less of a
> problem..

Yeah, telling someone "it's for your own good" has always been shown to help. :)

G


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Chris Travers]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:

>
> > On 13 January 2016 at 03:10, Tom Lane  wrote:
> >> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
> >> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y,
> >> and Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.
> >> "Of any kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the
> >> "personal attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be
> better?
>
> > IME attacks (even if they are purely technical) on one's code can be as
> hurtful and equally as likely to result in alienation as personal attacks.
> I'm not sure how you would word it but just concentrating on personal
> attacks leaves open the sort of bullying that has been seen in other
> projects.
>
> > Perhaps you could add something about valuing contributions from and
> making allowances for those with less expertise.
>
> > I know that's sort-of implied by the "any person who is willing to
> contribute" phrase but I would say that being explicit about it is more
> likely to encourage non-contributors to contribute than what's been arrived
> at so far.
>
> > Geoff
>
> I agree it's hard to even talk about just technical without hurting
> someone's feelings, but I really don't think there is much we can do about
> that. Except linking to a separate document about how to get newbie help.
> I think that kind of thing would be better handled by mentoring sessions
> (like a big developer taking you under their wings) than trying to deal
> with that sensitivity in a Coc.
> In fact people would take advantage of the situation if you say things
> like  "less expertise",
> because then they'd expect preferential treatment because they don't know
> C and be constantly badgering everybody for help.
>

One thing to think about here is the idea of framing the process.  One
reason it might be a good idea to have a "respect the commons" clause is
that it becomes a good way to think about the interaction of review and
technical discussion.  I.e. both sides want to improve the software.  The
focus is on the software, not on the other person.

People *can* take offense when you say their code is not good enough,
particularly when it is true, because for better or worse we do often
identify with what we produce.  But I would hope that if the focus is on
improvement of the software the this becomes at least a bit less of a
problem..

>
> Thanks,
> Regina
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
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>



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Geoff Winkless]

On 13 January 2016 at 13:05, Regina Obe  wrote:
>> Perhaps you could add something about valuing contributions from and making 
>> allowances for those with less expertise.
>
> I agree it's hard to even talk about just technical without hurting someone's 
> feelings,

I don't believe that it is: it just involves a little empathy.
Remember how you felt the first time you posted a patch to a system
you didn't know, or remember that people can easily misunderstand how
stuff works, especially in a codebase as complex and large as this
one, and that they're giving up the few hours a week that they can
spare from their busy lives and aren't being paid to do it. Start out
by (maybe just quietly, in your head) thanking that person for their
efforts, before you explain gently how the work they've generously
submitted can be improved. Just putting yourself in that frame of mind
makes it more likely that you won't stomp over someone's feelings
because their 30 line patch that they spent 2 months building doesn't
take into account that some mechanism they've never heard of and isn't
referenced anywhere in the code they've modified relies on the
specific way the code worked before.

> because then they'd expect preferential treatment because they don't know C 
> and be constantly badgering everybody for help.

Someone coming on to the mailing lists and asking for help with newbie
stuff so they can spend their own free time improving the product? How
dare they! :p

Geoff


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Regina Obe]

> On 13 January 2016 at 03:10, Tom Lane  wrote:
>> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid 
>> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y, 
>> and Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.  
>> "Of any kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the 
>> "personal attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be 
>> better?

> IME attacks (even if they are purely technical) on one's code can be as 
> hurtful and equally as likely to result in alienation as personal attacks. 
> I'm not sure how you would word it but just concentrating on personal attacks 
> leaves open the sort of bullying that has been seen in other projects.

> Perhaps you could add something about valuing contributions from and making 
> allowances for those with less expertise. 

> I know that's sort-of implied by the "any person who is willing to 
> contribute" phrase but I would say that being explicit about it is more 
> likely to encourage non-contributors to contribute than what's been arrived 
> at so far.

> Geoff

I agree it's hard to even talk about just technical without hurting someone's 
feelings, but I really don't think there is much we can do about that. Except 
linking to a separate document about how to get newbie help.
I think that kind of thing would be better handled by mentoring sessions (like 
a big developer taking you under their wings) than trying to deal with that 
sensitivity in a Coc.
In fact people would take advantage of the situation if you say things like  
"less expertise", 
because then they'd expect preferential treatment because they don't know C and 
be constantly badgering everybody for help.

Thanks,
Regina




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Geoff Winkless]

On 13 January 2016 at 03:10, Tom Lane  wrote:
> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y, and
> Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.  "Of any
> kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the "personal
> attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be better?

IME attacks (even if they are purely technical) on one's code can be
as hurtful and equally as likely to result in alienation as personal
attacks. I'm not sure how you would word it but just concentrating on
personal attacks leaves open the sort of bullying that has been seen
in other projects.

Perhaps you could add something about valuing contributions from and
making allowances for those with less expertise. I know that's sort-of
implied by the "any person who is willing to contribute" phrase but I
would say that being explicit about it is more likely to encourage
non-contributors to contribute than what's been arrived at so far.

Geoff


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Regina Obe]

This looks much better than earlier editions.  I think this one I could avoid 
violating without too much trouble.

 

When we talk about community commons, does that include physical spaces?  

I'm trying to visualize what "safe" means in a virtual space and I'm drawing a 
blank picture.

 

Thanks,

Regina

 

 

 

From: Chris Travers [mailto:chris.trav...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 2:47 AM
To: Joshua D. Drake 
Cc: Tom Lane ; Brian Dunavant ; 
Psql_General (E-mail) 
Subject: Re: WIP: CoC V5

 

Still trying the Danish "Make Love not Codes" approach (Love being the plural 
of the Danish Lov meaning law).

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a 
safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is 
willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.  
This CoC is only about interaction via community channels or relating to 
community commons.  Your personal lives outside the PostgreSQL community are 
your own.

2. Please be respectful of others.  Understand that the community is about 
collaboration.  We are here to build and further a software project, so let's 
work together.

 

3. Please try to assume that perceived slights are the result of genuine 
miscommunication or different perspective not personal attacks.  Assume others 
are being reasonable.

4. Please respect the common work and the need for high quality of code.  
Understand that the review process is an opportunity for discussion and 
improvement.  Work to further the community and the software, and assume that 
others are doing the same.

 

5. The CoC committee, those they designate may take action as needed to 
facilitate or, as necessary, take action to enforce the community principles 
and conduct embodied in this CoC.  For affiliated projects, the maintainers of 
the project or those they designate may fill the same role instead.

=

I am going to reiterate my view that a rules approach is not going to really 
prevent problems and those who want to harass others can often use codes of 
conduct as weapons to do so.  I would rather see something as general as 
possible.emphasizing what we want rather than what we want to avoid.

 

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:37 PM, Joshua D. Drake mailto:j...@commandprompt.com> > wrote:

tl;dr;

* Moved #2 to #3 and #3 to #2
* Added wording for assuming positive intent to #2

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a 
safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is 
willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.

2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of 
personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.

3. The CoC is not about being offended. One should always assume good 
intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone can get offended at anything.

4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC 
etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the CoC 
and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.

5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.



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Best Wishes,

Chris Travers

 

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Chris Travers]

Still trying the Danish "Make Love not Codes" approach (Love being the
plural of the Danish Lov meaning law).

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
way.  This CoC is only about interaction via community channels or relating
to community commons.  Your personal lives outside the PostgreSQL community
are your own.

2. Please be respectful of others.  Understand that the community is about
collaboration.  We are here to build and further a software project, so
let's work together.

3. Please try to assume that perceived slights are the result of genuine
miscommunication or different perspective not personal attacks.  Assume
others are being reasonable.

4. Please respect the common work and the need for high quality of code.
Understand that the review process is an opportunity for discussion and
improvement.  Work to further the community and the software, and assume
that others are doing the same.

5. The CoC committee, those they designate may take action as needed to
facilitate or, as necessary, take action to enforce the community
principles and conduct embodied in this CoC.  For affiliated projects, the
maintainers of the project or those they designate may fill the same role
instead.

=

I am going to reiterate my view that a rules approach is not going to
really prevent problems and those who want to harass others can often use
codes of conduct as weapons to do so.  I would rather see something as
general as possible.emphasizing what we want rather than what we want to
avoid.

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:37 PM, Joshua D. Drake 
wrote:

> tl;dr;
>
> * Moved #2 to #3 and #3 to #2
> * Added wording for assuming positive intent to #2
>
> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):
>
> 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> way.
>
> 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of
> personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.
>
> 3. The CoC is not about being offended. One should always assume good
> intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone can get offended at
> anything.
>
> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC
> etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the
> CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.
>
> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.
>
>
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
> Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
> control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 07:10 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Kevin Grittner  writes:

I'm not the greatest word-smith, but I'll attempt to rework Josh's
draft to something that seems more "natural" to me.


Minor (or not?) comment:


* To maintain a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
environment all participants must ensure that their language and
actions are free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any
kind.


The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y, and
Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.  "Of any
kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the "personal
attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be better?


Hrm, I see your point but the definition of disparaging is:

expressing the opinion that something is of little worth; derogatory.

I guess if we got into a VI vs Emacs argument the CoC could apply but 
wouldn't that also be a good thing?


JD



regards, tom lane




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 07:04 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

"Joshua D. Drake"  writes:

On 01/12/2016 02:43 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:

To me, this reads more like the document itself.  I hope I have
done justice to Josh's points as well as Tom's, although I would
bet there are a number of people on the list that can improve on my
effort here.



I read your whole document. It is not badly written and I would agree it
does read a bit more like a lot of the CoCs out there. My critique would
be that it adds words for the sake of adding words. The more words the
more ambiguity and the more nits to pick.



As we have all appeared to coalesce around v5, I would suggest that we
stick with it or gently modify v5 up to the point that it is something
that sticks.


Um, you may have coalesced around v5, but I'm not sure there's consensus
there.  I agree with Kevin that his version looks a lot more like a real
CoC.  His is surely still amenable to some editing, but there are also
things in your version that we can do without.  Particularly the "not
about being offended" line.  That's pretty defensive and unwelcoming,
IMO, and that isn't the image we want to project here.


Even with the V5? There is a pretty good point there IMO. It is very 
easy to get offended over really stupid things (including just standard 
miscommunication).


That said, I actually don't have a problem taking that point out and 
making that V6.


JD



regards, tom lane




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 06:41 PM, Elein wrote:

The small problem with your version, Joshua, is that the appropriate action is 
not specified.

Sorry to jump in in the middle. I have not read the comments fully.



It is all good Elein. The lack of appropriate action is purposeful. The 
idea is that we decide on a CoC. Then we decide on the next step. Under 
current structure that would fall to core. I am of the opinion that the 
"action" that the committee decides would be with exception to -core, 
with -core being the final (board of directors vote). However, I think 
that can all be solved after wording is decided.


JD

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 06:55 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Elein  writes:

The small problem with your version, Joshua, is that the appropriate action is 
not specified.


I think at this point we're just trying to agree on a statement as
to what actions are acceptable or not.  After that we can get into
what is the enforcement mechanism; but that's a separable concern
and I believe we're best off keeping it separate for the moment.

(FWIW, I would prefer to see specific remedies mostly left to the
discretion of the enforcers.  There is nothing more broken than
mandatory sentencing rules.  But, really, one thing at a time...)\


Exactly. +1



regards, tom lane




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Bill Moran]

On Tue, 12 Jan 2016 22:10:43 -0500
Tom Lane  wrote:

> Kevin Grittner  writes:
> > I'm not the greatest word-smith, but I'll attempt to rework Josh's
> > draft to something that seems more "natural" to me.
> 
> Minor (or not?) comment:
> 
> > * To maintain a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> > environment all participants must ensure that their language and
> > actions are free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any
> > kind.
> 
> The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
> technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y, and
> Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.  "Of any
> kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the "personal
> attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be better?

When I used to write fiction, I met regularly with a writing group.
We had a very explicit rule: criticize the manuscript, NOT the author.

I feel this applies ... and possibly could be worded to that effect,
"Critical remarks regarding patches and/or technical work are
necessary to ensure a quality product; however, critical remarks
directed at individuals are not constructive and therefore not
acceptable." or something ...

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Tom Lane]

Kevin Grittner  writes:
> I'm not the greatest word-smith, but I'll attempt to rework Josh's
> draft to something that seems more "natural" to me.

Minor (or not?) comment:

> * To maintain a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> environment all participants must ensure that their language and
> actions are free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any
> kind.

The "disparaging remarks" part of this could easily be taken to forbid
technical criticism of any sort, eg "this patch is bad because X,Y, and
Z", even when X,Y, and Z are perfectly neutral technical points.  "Of any
kind" doesn't improve that either.  I'm on board with the "personal
attacks" part.  Maybe "disparaging personal remarks" would be better?

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Tom Lane]

"Joshua D. Drake"  writes:
> On 01/12/2016 02:43 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:
>> To me, this reads more like the document itself.  I hope I have
>> done justice to Josh's points as well as Tom's, although I would
>> bet there are a number of people on the list that can improve on my
>> effort here.

> I read your whole document. It is not badly written and I would agree it 
> does read a bit more like a lot of the CoCs out there. My critique would 
> be that it adds words for the sake of adding words. The more words the 
> more ambiguity and the more nits to pick.

> As we have all appeared to coalesce around v5, I would suggest that we 
> stick with it or gently modify v5 up to the point that it is something 
> that sticks.

Um, you may have coalesced around v5, but I'm not sure there's consensus
there.  I agree with Kevin that his version looks a lot more like a real
CoC.  His is surely still amenable to some editing, but there are also
things in your version that we can do without.  Particularly the "not
about being offended" line.  That's pretty defensive and unwelcoming,
IMO, and that isn't the image we want to project here.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Tom Lane]

Elein  writes:
> The small problem with your version, Joshua, is that the appropriate action 
> is not specified. 

I think at this point we're just trying to agree on a statement as
to what actions are acceptable or not.  After that we can get into
what is the enforcement mechanism; but that's a separable concern
and I believe we're best off keeping it separate for the moment.

(FWIW, I would prefer to see specific remedies mostly left to the
discretion of the enforcers.  There is nothing more broken than
mandatory sentencing rules.  But, really, one thing at a time...)

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Elein]

The small problem with your version, Joshua, is that the appropriate action is 
not specified. 

Sorry to jump in in the middle. I have not read the comments fully. 

Elein Mustain
el...@varlena.com


> On Jan 12, 2016, at 2:56 PM, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> 
>> On 01/12/2016 02:43 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:
>> I think that this is fairly close to something that would make
>> sense, but there is sort of a weirdness in the CoC referring to
>> itself in the 3rd person.  It sound more like an argument for
>> *having* a CoC than the document itself.
>> 
>> I'm not the greatest word-smith, but I'll attempt to rework Josh's
>> draft to something that seems more "natural" to me.  At the same
>> time, I'll try to incorporate other comments, like Tom's comment
>> about enforcement mechanisms and the gray areas in members of the
>> community communicating in public forums.
> 
> On Tom's comment, I was waiting until we have a firmed up version. On the 
> communicating in public forums, I must have missed that, do you have a 
> reference?
> 
> What isn't shown here, is that I was writing in a similar fashion that you 
> would write a resolution for a NP. Consider (very rough):
> 
> WHEREAS
> 
> The PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) would like to insure a safe, 
> respectful, productive and collaborative environment for all.
> 
> PGDG Resolves that
> 
> 1. There shall be a Code of Conduct governing behaviour for the PGDG 
> community.
> 
> 2. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a 
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is 
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.
> 
> 3. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community, anyone 
> can get offended at anything.
> 
> 4. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of 
> personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.
> 
> 5. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC 
> etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the 
> CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.
> 
> 6. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
> Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
> control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
> 


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 02:43 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:

I guess I should scroll all the way down. :P




To me, this reads more like the document itself.  I hope I have
done justice to Josh's points as well as Tom's, although I would
bet there are a number of people on the list that can improve on my
effort here.


I read your whole document. It is not badly written and I would agree it 
does read a bit more like a lot of the CoCs out there. My critique would 
be that it adds words for the sake of adding words. The more words the 
more ambiguity and the more nits to pick.


As we have all appeared to coalesce around v5, I would suggest that we 
stick with it or gently modify v5 up to the point that it is something 
that sticks.


Sincerely,

JD


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 02:43 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:

I think that this is fairly close to something that would make
sense, but there is sort of a weirdness in the CoC referring to
itself in the 3rd person.  It sound more like an argument for
*having* a CoC than the document itself.

I'm not the greatest word-smith, but I'll attempt to rework Josh's
draft to something that seems more "natural" to me.  At the same
time, I'll try to incorporate other comments, like Tom's comment
about enforcement mechanisms and the gray areas in members of the
community communicating in public forums.


On Tom's comment, I was waiting until we have a firmed up version. On 
the communicating in public forums, I must have missed that, do you have 
a reference?


What isn't shown here, is that I was writing in a similar fashion that 
you would write a resolution for a NP. Consider (very rough):


WHEREAS

The PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) would like to insure a 
safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment for all.


PGDG Resolves that

1. There shall be a Code of Conduct governing behaviour for the PGDG 
community.


2. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing 
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person 
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and 
collaborative way.


3. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community, 
anyone can get offended at anything.


4. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.


5. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.


6. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.




--
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PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
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control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Kevin Grittner]

I think that this is fairly close to something that would make
sense, but there is sort of a weirdness in the CoC referring to
itself in the 3rd person.  It sound more like an argument for
*having* a CoC than the document itself.

I'm not the greatest word-smith, but I'll attempt to rework Josh's
draft to something that seems more "natural" to me.  At the same
time, I'll try to incorporate other comments, like Tom's comment
about enforcement mechanisms and the gray areas in members of the
community communicating in public forums.


On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:

> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):
>
> 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> way.
>
> 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of
> personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.
>
> 3. The CoC is not about being offended. One should always assume good
> intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone can get offended at
> anything.
>
> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC
> etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the
> CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.
>
> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.



== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document is intended to provide community guidelines for
creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in
a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.

* To maintain a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
environment all participants must ensure that their language and
actions are free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any
kind.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.  Consider that due to
language and cultural differences, something may be intended in a
benign or helpful way, even if some participants initially see a
possible interpretation which is otherwise.

* All participants must avoid sustained disruption of the
collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL
events.

* There is a distinction between words and actions taken inside the
community and words and actions outside community communication
channels and events, but there is a gray area when using public
forums or social media where a person identifies as a member of
this community.  Members of the community, especially those with a
high profile within the community, should be mindful of this and
avoid anything which might create an unwelcoming or hostile
attitude toward the community in such venues.

* Participants who feel that they have not been treated in
accordance with this Code of Conduct may want to try to sort things
out in the forum where there was a perception of a problem; asking
for a clarification or an apology either in a public discussion
context or privately can often resolve an issue quickly to
everyone's satisfaction.  Where this fails, the Core Team is
responsible for determining what, if any, action is appropriate.
The core team is listed, with a link to the purpose of team, at the
top of the community's "Contributor Profiles" page:
http://www.postgresql.org/community/contributors/



To me, this reads more like the document itself.  I hope I have
done justice to Josh's points as well as Tom's, although I would
bet there are a number of people on the list that can improve on my
effort here.

--
Kevin Grittner
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V5

[Joshua D. Drake]

tl;dr;

* Moved #2 to #3 and #3 to #2
* Added wording for assuming positive intent to #2

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing 
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person 
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and 
collaborative way.


2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.


3. The CoC is not about being offended. One should always assume good 
intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone can get offended at 
anything.


4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.


5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V4

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 12:16 PM, Oleg Bartunov wrote:


4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing
lists, IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a
violation of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC
committee.


Then we need to define what is "Coc committee".


Yes but I believe that can be done AFTER...




5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community.
Your private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community
are your own.



* We should specify here legal place of CoC, say, URL on postgresql.org

* We should translate it to other languages


Agreed.

JD

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V4

[Oleg Bartunov]

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Joshua D. Drake 
wrote:

> Tl;dr;
>
> * Removed specific examples and reworded #3 to be more concise
>
> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):
>
> 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> way.
>
> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community,
> anyone can get offended at anything.
>
> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of
> personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.
>
> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC
> etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the
> CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.
>

Then we need to define what is "Coc committee".


>
> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.
>


* We should specify here legal place of CoC, say, URL on postgresql.org
* We should translate it to other languages




>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
> Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
> control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V4

[Jim Mlodgenski]

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Joshua D. Drake 
wrote:

> Tl;dr;
>
> * Removed specific examples and reworded #3 to be more concise
>
> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):
>
> 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> way.
>
> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community,
> anyone can get offended at anything.
>

Maybe add a little to #2.

"Assume positive intent from your fellow community member."


>
> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of
> personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.
>
> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC
> etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the
> CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.
>
> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
> Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
> control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
>
>
> --
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>

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/12/2016 08:17 AM, Neil Tiffin wrote:



On Jan 12, 2016, at 12:20 AM, Tom Lane  wrote:

[ just a few comments on specific points ]

"Greg Sabino Mullane"  writes:

2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
interested in being a victim than moving forward.



Too defensive; not needed in the code of conduct.


Agreed, let's avoid defensiveness here.  There's not much advantage to
this whole exercise unless we can be welcoming rather than dismissive.



How about a simple statement?

2. We expect people to be both tolerant and respectful of others.

Neil


For those who are new to the party, the actual latest revision of this 
is over on $SUBJECT: WIP: CoC v4


Jd


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V4

[Joshua D. Drake]

Tl;dr;

* Removed specific examples and reworded #3 to be more concise

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing 
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person 
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and 
collaborative way.


2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community, 
anyone can get offended at anything.


3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind.


4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.


5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.


--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Neil Tiffin]

> On Jan 12, 2016, at 12:20 AM, Tom Lane  wrote:
> 
> [ just a few comments on specific points ]
> 
> "Greg Sabino Mullane"  writes:
>>> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is 
>>> purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more 
>>> interested in being a victim than moving forward.
> 
>> Too defensive; not needed in the code of conduct.
> 
> Agreed, let's avoid defensiveness here.  There's not much advantage to
> this whole exercise unless we can be welcoming rather than dismissive.
> 

How about a simple statement?

2. We expect people to be both tolerant and respectful of others.

Neil



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

Bret,

 

Thanks.  That made me feel much better.  

I was about to walk out the door never to use PostgreSQL lists again because I 
thought Josh was an insensitive jerk flapping his wings about "respectful, 
collaborative"

, and I certainly violated the new "respectful" mantra buy calling his Coc a 
Vagina.

 

I was beginning to feel like everyone was against me.  

 

Love,

Regina

 

From: Bret Stern [mailto:bret_st...@machinemanagement.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 11:01 AM
To: Regina Obe 
Cc: 'James Keener' ; 'Psql_General (E-mail)' 

Subject: Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

 

On Tue, 2016-01-12 at 09:07 -0500, Regina Obe wrote: 

 
>  If the attacker goes public, we point people at the exchange that happened 
> where Tom has presumably already discussed the reasons that the 
> patch/feature/&c isn't being accepted.
 
If someone wanted to out someone, they would study them carefully.  They would 
find Tom's buttons and push them.
They will show proof of Tom saying fuck you trans thing (probably something 
worse) and all that and it would  be a bad reflection on Tom and our community.
It's because they don't have a Coc that Tom is such a jerk.  They let the power 
get to his head.
They would have proof is my point in an email trail.  
 
Luckily I think Tom doesn't have many visible buttons to push, but others in 
our community do.
Anyrate I think it's looking more like a Coc will hurt us more than do us good. 
 This is beginning to feel too much like Highschool Lincoln-douglass debating 
which I never enjoyed.
I just want to get back to programming something useful.
 

Amen. 

 
 
> I don't think I understand your point. So I get 100 friends to come here and 
> ask for Tom to be outed, we ask for the reason and when they don't produce a 
> valid one, nothing happens because none of us have any power.
They will ask, they'll point at a random link.  Like this one - 
https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200
 
You'll be too lazy to read it and assume they read it and they are right.  Tom 
will be persecuted for some link everyone was too lazy to read.
News of Tom's jerkiness would spread across the internet like a virus.  
The jerk think would be echoed by everyone until everyone believes it and takes 
it to heart. "Tom is a big jerk. How can the PostgreSQL project allow such a 
jerk to be running the show."
Tom will feel bad and think - "No good deed goes unpunished", he'll step down.
 
THE END
 
 
Thanks,
Regina
 

In that vein..Being the insensitive MF that I am, I don't care what Tom says. 
Toms value (in the list) is his commitment to
the project and (for me) the last word on most topics..even if he is a liberal 
sob.
Feel the love,
Bret Stern




 
 
 

 

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Bret Stern]

On Tue, 2016-01-12 at 09:07 -0500, Regina Obe wrote:

> >  If the attacker goes public, we point people at the exchange that happened 
> > where Tom has presumably already discussed the reasons that the 
> > patch/feature/&c isn't being accepted.
> 
> If someone wanted to out someone, they would study them carefully.  They 
> would find Tom's buttons and push them.
> They will show proof of Tom saying fuck you trans thing (probably something 
> worse) and all that and it would  be a bad reflection on Tom and our 
> community.
> It's because they don't have a Coc that Tom is such a jerk.  They let the 
> power get to his head.
> They would have proof is my point in an email trail.  
> 
> Luckily I think Tom doesn't have many visible buttons to push, but others in 
> our community do.
> Anyrate I think it's looking more like a Coc will hurt us more than do us 
> good.  This is beginning to feel too much like Highschool Lincoln-douglass 
> debating which I never enjoyed.
> I just want to get back to programming something useful.
> 

Amen.

> 
> > I don't think I understand your point. So I get 100 friends to come here 
> > and ask for Tom to be outed, we ask for the reason and when they don't 
> > produce a valid one, nothing happens because none of us have any power.
> They will ask, they'll point at a random link.  Like this one - 
> https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200
> 
> You'll be too lazy to read it and assume they read it and they are right.  
> Tom will be persecuted for some link everyone was too lazy to read.
> News of Tom's jerkiness would spread across the internet like a virus.  
> The jerk think would be echoed by everyone until everyone believes it and 
> takes it to heart. "Tom is a big jerk. How can the PostgreSQL project allow 
> such a jerk to be running the show."
> Tom will feel bad and think - "No good deed goes unpunished", he'll step down.
> 
> THE END
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Regina
> 

In that vein..Being the insensitive MF that I am, I don't care what Tom
says. Toms value (in the list) is his commitment to
the project and (for me) the last word on most topics..even if he is a
liberal sob.
Feel the love,
Bret Stern


> 
> 

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

>
>
> https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/codes-of-conduct-when-being-excellent-is-not-enough
>
That post seems to discuss why a written CoC is needed (as opposed to an
unwritten "act professional" one). I don't believe it applies to my
comment.

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

> everyone should be excellent to one another, as defined in a general CoC

 

I think CoralineAda has debated extensively why being excellent is not 
sufficient.

 

https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/codes-of-conduct-when-being-excellent-is-not-enough

 

I personally don't have the patience to read that dribble.

Thanks,

Regina

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

James,

 

I was describing a real live scenario.  I was describing what happened to Linus 
Torvalds.  Only part was he hasn't left yet.  He's stood his ground and ignored 
the tyrants.

 

Remember I'm on the side of not having a Coc.  I have trouble debating things I 
don't believe in.  I was just doing it to say – if we must have a Coc, let it 
be a Cock like mine and not a Vagina like what Josh proposed.

 

Anyrate I think we have debated this enough to say.  We considered having a Coc 
and concluded it's not in our best interest.  And when the hounds come thru 
with something like this:

 

https://github.com/solidusio/solidus/pull/643#issuecomment-168749932

 

We can point at the long several threads in which we discussed the issue 
extensively and got all confused which thread to follow.

 

They can analyze the post-mortem in their law studies and analyze why all of us 
had such opposing view points and couldn't even agree with each other.

 

Thanks,

Regina

 

From: James Keener [mailto:j...@jimkeener.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 9:20 AM
To: Regina Obe ; 'Psql_General (E-mail)' 

Subject: RE: WIP: CoC

 

Wow. I mean actually wow.

So many things. Just so many.

You still haven't explained why core contributors need to be treated like 
special snowflakes. If someone acts inappropriately then they should be told 
so, regardless of status. Why should we protect anyone in the wrong? 

Moreover, your scenario is so contrived and actually ends in a situation which 
supports my point, not yours.

I don't understand your point and you never clarify it. Why does how technical 
decisions are made affect how each person is suppose to treat each other 
person? We won't look past a core contributor being an ass, nor should we 
accept attacks because someone doesn't like technical decisions. None of this 
actually matters as it's all covered inside a more general CoC.

I don't want a contrived example that backs up my argument, I want you to point 
out at where my assumptions (everyone should be excellent to one another, as 
defined in a general CoC) or my chain of reasoning (core contributors are part 
of everyone, therefore interactions with and by them are covered under a 
general CoC).

"THE END" is also the most childish way to claim you're incapable of actually 
defending your argument and just want to declare yourself the winner. I'm sorry 
you don't enjoy this discussion. You're free to leave it if you wish.

Jim

On January 12, 2016 9:07:08 AM EST, Regina Obe mailto:l...@pcorp.us> > wrote:

  If the attacker goes public, we point people at the exchange that happened 
where Tom has presumably already discussed the reasons that the 
patch/feature/&c isn't being accepted.


If someone wanted to out someone, they would study them carefully.  They would 
find Tom's buttons and push them.
They will show proof of Tom saying fuck you trans thing (probably something 
worse) and all that and it would  be a bad reflection on Tom and our community.
It's because they don't have a Coc that Tom is such a jerk.  They let the power 
get to his head.
They would have proof is my point in an email trail.  

Luckily I think Tom doesn't have many visible buttons to push, but others in 
our community do.
Anyrate I think it's looking more like a Coc will hurt us more than do us good. 
 This is beginning to
feel too much like Highschool Lincoln-douglass debating which I never enjoyed.
I just want to get back to programming something useful.



 I don't think I understand your point. So I get 100 friends to come here and 
ask for Tom to be outed, we ask for the reason and when they don't produce a 
valid one, nothing happens because none of us have any power.

They will ask, they'll point at a random link.  Like this one - 
https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200

You'll be too lazy to read it and assume they read it and they are right.  Tom 
will be persecuted for some link everyone was too lazy to read.
News of Tom's jerkiness would spread across the internet like a virus.  
The jerk think would be echoed by
everyone until everyone believes it and takes it to heart. "Tom is a big jerk. 
How can the PostgreSQL project allow such a jerk to be running the show."
Tom will feel bad and think - "No good deed goes unpunished", he'll step down.

THE END


Thanks,
Regina




-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

Wow. I mean actually wow.

So many things. Just so many.

You still haven't explained why core contributors need to be treated like 
special snowflakes. If someone acts inappropriately then they should be told 
so, regardless of status. Why should we protect anyone in the wrong? 

Moreover, your scenario is so contrived and actually ends in a situation which 
supports my point, not yours.

I don't understand your point and you never clarify it. Why does how technical 
decisions are made affect how each person is suppose to treat each other 
person? We won't look past a core contributor being an ass, nor should we 
accept attacks because someone doesn't like technical decisions. None of this 
actually matters as it's all covered inside a more general CoC.

I don't want a contrived example that backs up my argument, I want you to point 
out at where my assumptions (everyone should be excellent to one another, as 
defined in a general CoC) or my chain of reasoning (core contributors are part 
of everyone, therefore interactions with and by them are covered under a 
general CoC).

"THE END" is also the most childish way to claim you're incapable of actually 
defending your argument and just want to declare yourself the winner. I'm sorry 
you don't enjoy this discussion. You're free to leave it if you wish.

Jim

On January 12, 2016 9:07:08 AM EST, Regina Obe  wrote:
>>  If the attacker goes public, we point people at the exchange that
>happened where Tom has presumably already discussed the reasons that
>the patch/feature/&c isn't being accepted.
>
>If someone wanted to out someone, they would study them carefully. 
>They would find Tom's buttons and push them.
>They will show proof of Tom saying fuck you trans thing (probably
>something worse) and all that and it would  be a bad reflection on Tom
>and our community.
>It's because they don't have a Coc that Tom is such a jerk.  They let
>the power get to his head.
>They would have proof is my point in an email trail.  
>
>Luckily I think Tom doesn't have many visible buttons to push, but
>others in our community do.
>Anyrate I think it's looking more like a Coc will hurt us more than do
>us good.  This is beginning to feel too much like Highschool
>Lincoln-douglass debating which I never enjoyed.
>I just want to get back to programming something useful.
>
>
>> I don't think I understand your point. So I get 100 friends to come
>here and ask for Tom to be outed, we ask for the reason and when they
>don't produce a valid one, nothing happens because none of us have any
>power.
>They will ask, they'll point at a random link.  Like this one - 
>https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200
>
>You'll be too lazy to read it and assume they read it and they are
>right.  Tom will be persecuted for some link everyone was too lazy to
>read.
>News of Tom's jerkiness would spread across the internet like a virus. 
>
>The jerk think would be echoed by everyone until everyone believes it
>and takes it to heart. "Tom is a big jerk. How can the PostgreSQL
>project allow such a jerk to be running the show."
>Tom will feel bad and think - "No good deed goes unpunished", he'll
>step down.
>
>THE END
>
>
>Thanks,
>Regina

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

>  If the attacker goes public, we point people at the exchange that happened 
> where Tom has presumably already discussed the reasons that the 
> patch/feature/&c isn't being accepted.

If someone wanted to out someone, they would study them carefully.  They would 
find Tom's buttons and push them.
They will show proof of Tom saying fuck you trans thing (probably something 
worse) and all that and it would  be a bad reflection on Tom and our community.
It's because they don't have a Coc that Tom is such a jerk.  They let the power 
get to his head.
They would have proof is my point in an email trail.  

Luckily I think Tom doesn't have many visible buttons to push, but others in 
our community do.
Anyrate I think it's looking more like a Coc will hurt us more than do us good. 
 This is beginning to feel too much like Highschool Lincoln-douglass debating 
which I never enjoyed.
I just want to get back to programming something useful.


> I don't think I understand your point. So I get 100 friends to come here and 
> ask for Tom to be outed, we ask for the reason and when they don't produce a 
> valid one, nothing happens because none of us have any power.
They will ask, they'll point at a random link.  Like this one - 
https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200

You'll be too lazy to read it and assume they read it and they are right.  Tom 
will be persecuted for some link everyone was too lazy to read.
News of Tom's jerkiness would spread across the internet like a virus.  
The jerk think would be echoed by everyone until everyone believes it and takes 
it to heart. "Tom is a big jerk. How can the PostgreSQL project allow such a 
jerk to be running the show."
Tom will feel bad and think - "No good deed goes unpunished", he'll step down.

THE END


Thanks,
Regina




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

>> That has nothing to do with the Code of Conduct, though.
>> The community accepting Tom saying "no" to Feature X is
>> vastly different than the community not calling Tom out
>> for being mean.
>> The CoC is about the later situation and not the prior;
>> and the community should call Tom out. (I'm sure you're
>> a great person, Tom, sorry you're the example being used
>> here.)
> 
> Let me reiterate that YES it does.  The reason is that this
> is a Contributor Code of Conduct, so covers whether and how
> you accept a piece of code.

No, no it's not. It's about interpersonal interactions, not technical
decisions.

> In certain gang of 10 that has not contributed anything to our
> project can argue that you took person X over person Y's
> implementation because person Y is black and you are racist.
> If everyone is equal -- how are you going to fight that?

The same way I would argue with you if you called me sexist for not
liking your ideas? I'm not understanding your point. Why is this any
different than someone calling someone else a racist? The project
backing Tom's decision has nothing to do with responding to Tom being
called a racist. Moreover if the project backs Tom's decision on a
technical basis, the attacker isn't going to get very far with relief
here. If the attacker goes public, we point people at the exchange that
happened where Tom has presumably already discussed the reasons that the
patch/feature/&c isn't being accepted.

>> Now the whole n-or-b thing gets into obvious not helpful dialogue 
>> which is not helpful.  I'm sure anyone would agree that if Tom called 
>> me a nigger, it's not helpful to our communication, and you should 
>> therefore tell him to shut-up regardless who he is.
> 
>> So then why call him more valued? It doesn't matter in this context. 
>> Why even bring it up. On technical matters, someone closer to the
>> issue is often a better arbiter of the evidence, but in matters of   
>> interpersonal interactions, no one should be held above another  
>> person.  
>   
> Tom was just an example.  Yes someone closer to the problem would be  
> better and Tom of course would delegate.  My point is people in our   
> community  are more important to us than strangers.  Let's say you
> have 1000 people come and attack you off the street(this is how those 
> SJW's work BTW and why they are so big on that line "It's your
> responsibility to oust your project maintainers").  If you consider   
> their opinions equal to those who have put sweat into the project,
> they will crush you.  A Coc is not only to make new-comers feel   
> welcome, but to protect our long-estabilished project members from
> marauders. 

I don't think I understand your point. So I get 100 friends to come here
and ask for Tom to be outed, we ask for the reason and when they don't
produce a valid one, nothing happens because none of us have any power.
When it comes to committing and governance, there _is_ a hierarchy, and
power is concentrated with a small group. The CoC isn't a place to
discuss how our development structure works. That small group of people
has no more rights against being attacked than anyone else.

Core Comitters, while extremely important to the project technically,
deserve the same respect we expect everyone to show to everyone else.
The CoC is about that respect, not settling technical disputes.

> While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the Time
> and effort of changing long understood terminology that a large   
> majority of people are used to.  Since it's less costly to change new 
> terms, we are more likely to accept changes to newer terminology than 
> changes to long established industry terminology.

I'm not sure how we're on topic anymore, but "it's costly to change our
signage, we're going to continue to keep up the Nigger- and White- Only
signs above the bathroom. I hope you understand." isn't a good argument.

Moreover, I just don't believe they're actually good terms as they're
not really descriptive unless you already know what they mean, but
that's off topic.

Jim


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V3

[Andy Chambers]

Sorry. I just saw the reference to this in the related thread.
On Jan 11, 2016 7:01 PM, "Andy Chambers"  wrote:

> Any reason not to just adopt the contributor covenant?
>
> http://contributor-covenant.org/
> tl;dr;
>
> * Removed #6 (Social Justice)
>
> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):
>
> 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> way.
>
> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community,
> anyone can get offended at anything.
>
> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of
> non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to gender,
> sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or
> personal attacks.
>
> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC
> etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the
> CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.
>
> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> JD
>
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc.  http://the.postgres.company/
>  +1-503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V2

[Regina Obe]

Josh, 
> tl;dr;

> * Modified #2 to be less harsh.
> * Modified #3 with TGL and James comments
> * Did not remove examples as I believe they are vital to the success

> I saw Regina's post, I believe it is good for context but I also believe that 
> something concise and to the point is the better path.

> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

> 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a 
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is 
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.

I don't know what your idea is of being "respectful and collaborative", but if 
dismissing my Coc because it's longer than your Coc and not even asking for 
comments  is your idea of collaboration, then I think we have a big problem.

Your repeat of terms in the beginning and the end looks really weird too.


Thanks,
Regina










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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

Jim,
> That has nothing to do with the Code of Conduct, though.  The community 
> accepting Tom saying "no" to Feature X is vastly different than the community 
> not calling Tom out for being mean.  
> The CoC is about the later situation and not the prior; and the community 
> should call Tom out. (I'm sure you're a great person, Tom, sorry you're the 
> example being used here.)

Let me reiterate that YES it does.  The reason is that this is a Contributor 
Code of Conduct, so covers whether and how you accept a piece of code.
In certain gang of 10 that has not contributed anything to our project can 
argue that you took person X over person Y's implementation because person Y is 
black and you are racist.  
If everyone is equal -- how are you going to fight that?

In that case, you would judge the opinion of someone who has worked more with 
the PostgreSQL code base
than some random person off the street.  I've seen this happen with that 
Contributor Code of Conduct 

http://contributor-covenant.org/

(It's very ugly when it happens).  


> Now the whole n-or-b thing gets into obvious not helpful dialogue 
> which is not helpful.  I'm sure anyone would agree that if Tom called 
> me a nigger, it's not helpful to our communication, and you should 
> therefore tell him to shut-up regardless who he is.

> So then why call him more valued? It doesn't matter in this context. Why even 
> bring it up. On technical matters, someone closer to the issue is often a 
> better arbiter of the evidence, but in matters of interpersonal interactions, 
> no one should be held above another person.

Tom was just an example.  Yes someone closer to the problem would be better and 
Tom of course would delegate.  My point is people in our community  are more 
important to us than strangers.
Let's say you have 1000 people come and attack you off the street(this is how 
those SJW's work BTW and why they are so big on that line "It's your 
responsibility to oust your project maintainers").  If you consider their 
opinions equal to those who have put sweat into the project, they will crush 
you.
A Coc is not only to make new-comers feel welcome, but to protect our 
long-estabilished project members from marauders.



>> While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the
>> effort of changing long understood terminology and the psychological 
>> trauma such changes would cause for the large majority of people who 
>> are not as sensitive to the usage.
>> 
>> What psychological trauma? From changing terms? Are you crazy? (See 
>> for
>> that you'd like to the CoC to tell me why that wasn't an appropriate 
>> way to express my disbelief that someone would equate a change of term 
>> to psychological trauma.
>> 
>> Think about if all your life when you've been talking about 
>> replication you've been using master/slave, and someone says from now 
>> on, It's leader/follower.
>> 
>> So now in every conference you go to you need to catch yourself when 
>> you are saying Master/Slave   oops I meant to say Leader / Follower.
>> 
>> To me that's psychological trauma.  It's the same psychological trauma 
>> I had to face being born a left-handed and being forced to write with 
>> my right-hand.

> But it's still not trauma, where is the trauma? Something like Master/Slave 
> to Primary/Replica (which IMHO is a more descriptive term
> anyway) would be a long-term, gradual change. In all honesty no one will care 
> when you slip up because they'll understand it's a change in progress. I just 
> don't see the trauma.

> Jim

Okay trauma was a bit too dramatic. 

How about this:

While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the
Time and effort of changing long understood terminology that a large majority 
of people are used to.
Since it's less costly to change new terms, we are more likely to accept 
changes to newer terminology than changes to long established industry 
terminology.







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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Tom Lane]

[ just a few comments on specific points ]

"Greg Sabino Mullane"  writes:
>> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is 
>> purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more 
>> interested in being a victim than moving forward.

> Too defensive; not needed in the code of conduct.

Agreed, let's avoid defensiveness here.  There's not much advantage to
this whole exercise unless we can be welcoming rather than dismissive.

>> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
>> IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
>> of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.

> Too specific, covered by #1. Also, no definition of "CoC committee".

If the CoC is to mean anything at all, there will have to be some sort
of enforcement mechanism.  But I suggest strongly that we leave that out
of consideration for now, and focus just on what the conduct expectations
are.

[ FWIW, the core committee has always understood that part of our mandate
was disciplinary actions if it came to that.  It mostly hasn't; but if
a CoC becomes reality, the natural thing would be that it would fall to
core to enforce it. ]

>> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
>> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.

> Needed? I know part of a code of conduct is stating the obvious, but...

The Opal situation that was mentioned upthread seemed to me to be
interesting in part because there was a question of whether a person
was acting, outside the Opal community, in a way that others might take
to represent that community.  (I'm not stating that as fact, just saying
that there was a suggestion of it.)  I do not know where to draw those
lines exactly, and I'm not sure that drawing a bright line is feasible.
But it's a lot easier to say "your public life is your own" when you
are not a well-known member of a community.  When you are, well, your
public persona is partly intertwined with that community, and you can't
just turn that connection on and off.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V3

[Andy Chambers]

Any reason not to just adopt the contributor covenant?

http://contributor-covenant.org/
tl;dr;

* Removed #6 (Social Justice)

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
way.

2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community,
anyone can get offended at anything.

3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of
non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to gender,
sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or
personal attacks.

4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC
etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the
CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.

5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.

Sincerely,

JD


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V3

[Joshua D. Drake]

tl;dr;

* Removed #6 (Social Justice)

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing 
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person 
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and 
collaborative way.


2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community, 
anyone can get offended at anything.


3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
of non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to 
gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, 
race or personal attacks.


4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.


5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.


Sincerely,

JD


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Greg Sabino Mullane]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160


(Wow. I cannot recall a time I've seen so many posts that just make 
me shake my head in sadness. It's painfully obvious that a code of 
conduct is way outside the wheelhouse of many of the participants 
in this thread.)

> Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project:

> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

Nitpick: PGDG is not used. And perhaps "PostgreSQL" alone is enough?

> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is 
> purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more 
> interested in being a victim than moving forward.

Too defensive; not needed in the code of conduct.

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
> comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical 
> appearance, body size or race.

Already addressed upthread; mostly agree with the direction it is heading.

> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
> IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
> of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.

Too specific, covered by #1. Also, no definition of "CoC committee".

> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.

Needed? I know part of a code of conduct is stating the obvious, but...

> 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice.

Really no need for this. Defensive, and introduces a loaded term.

Thanks, JD, for pushing this forward.

- -- 
Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 201601112116
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

iEYEAREDAAYFAlaUYisACgkQvJuQZxSWSsirmgCg6o54wXRWLUyn0bgtP1tFgC46
TCEAniJ1KuhJ7vju7chbxfgWBuZ7qAk0
=wZcI
-END PGP SIGNATURE-




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

>> That has nothing to do with the Code of Conduct, though.  The 
>> community accepting Tom saying "no" to Feature X is vastly
>> different than the community not calling Tom out for being mean.
> 
>> The CoC is about the later situation and not the prior; and the
>> community should call Tom out. (I'm sure you're a great person,
>> Tom, sorry you're the example being used here.)
> 
> No.  The Coc is about protecting Tom from abuse.  I'm not worried
> about  YOUR good intentions, I'm worried about their bad intentions

Giving Tom special status is not the way to protect Tom from abuse.
We protect Tom from abuse by applying the exact same anti-abuse and
harassment rules that we have for everyone else to Tom. Making
exceptions is never a good thing to do. Tom is covered by the general
case, he does not need an exception. (Sorry Tom. <3)

Jim



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

> That has nothing to do with the Code of Conduct, though.  The community 
> accepting Tom saying "no" to Feature X is vastly different than the community 
> not calling Tom out for being mean.  

> The CoC is about the later situation and not the prior; and the community 
> should call Tom out. (I'm sure you're a great person, Tom, sorry you're the 
> example being used here.)

No.  The Coc is about protecting Tom from abuse.  I'm not worried about  YOUR 
good intentions, I'm worried about their bad intentions




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[John R Pierce]

On 1/11/2016 4:35 PM, James Keener wrote:

To me that's psychological trauma.  It's the same psychological trauma I
>had to face being born a left-handed and being forced to write with my
>right-hand.

But it's still not trauma, where is the trauma? Something like
Master/Slave to Primary/Replica (which IMHO is a more descriptive term
anyway) would be a long-term, gradual change. In all honesty no one will
care when you slip up because they'll understand it's a change in
progress. I just don't see the trauma.



s/trauma/drama/



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

>> We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than
> we value the opinions of others.
> 
>> A CoC is not the place to say some animals are more equal than others. A
> core commiter calling someone the n- or b- words is just as bad as me, a
> non commiter (if not worse!)
> 
> Yes it is.  If a stranger comes and wants something changed, and Tom
> Lane says no. You should go with Tom Lane.  Period.

That has nothing to do with the Code of Conduct, though.  The community
accepting Tom saying "no" to Feature X is vastly different than the
community not calling Tom out for being mean.  The CoC is about the
later situation and not the prior; and the community should call Tom
out. (I'm sure you're a great person, Tom, sorry you're the example
being used here.)

> Now the whole n-or-b thing gets into obvious not helpful dialogue which
> is not helpful.  I'm sure anyone would agree that if Tom called me a
> nigger, it's not helpful to our communication, and you should therefore
> tell him to shut-up regardless who he is.

So then why call him more valued? It doesn't matter in this context. Why
even bring it up. On technical matters, someone closer to the issue is
often a better arbiter of the evidence, but in matters of interpersonal
interactions, no one should be held above another person.

>> While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the
> effort of changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma
> such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as
> sensitive to the usage.
> 
>> What psychological trauma? From changing terms? Are you crazy? (See for
> that you'd like to the CoC to tell me why that wasn't an appropriate way
> to express my disbelief that someone would equate a change of term to
> psychological trauma.
> 
> Think about if all your life when you've been talking about replication
> you've been using master/slave, and someone says from now on, It's
> leader/follower.
> 
> So now in every conference you go to you need to catch yourself when you
> are saying Master/Slave – oops I meant to say Leader / Follower.
> 
> To me that's psychological trauma.  It's the same psychological trauma I
> had to face being born a left-handed and being forced to write with my
> right-hand.

But it's still not trauma, where is the trauma? Something like
Master/Slave to Primary/Replica (which IMHO is a more descriptive term
anyway) would be a long-term, gradual change. In all honesty no one will
care when you slip up because they'll understand it's a change in
progress. I just don't see the trauma.

Jim


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V2

[Stephen Cook]

On 1/11/2016 6:41 PM, Alban Hertroys wrote:
> 
>> On 12 Jan 2016, at 0:16, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
>>
>> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of 
>> non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to gender, 
>> sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or 
>> personal attacks.
> 
> I'm not debating whether there should be examples or not, they are usually 
> useful, but perhaps examples belong in a separate section and not in the core 
> CoC?

Maybe one of those sentences like "... free of personal attacks,
including but not limited to...", followed by a link to a page that
randomly generates a list of a dozen or so "protected classes". If your
particular deviance isn't in the list you can refresh and hope for the
best. And the "not limited to" part would allow us to castigate someone
who is just really good at being a bully through the loopholes.

And before someone says I'm the worst person ever for using the word
"deviance", I meant like statistically (nobody ever complains about
being in the majority).


-- Stephen




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V2

[Alban Hertroys]

> On 12 Jan 2016, at 0:16, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> 
> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of 
> non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to gender, 
> sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or 
> personal attacks.

I'm not debating whether there should be examples or not, they are usually 
useful, but perhaps examples belong in a separate section and not in the core 
CoC?

Frankly though, this thread looks like a testament of why Postgres doesn't 
really need a CoC. You people are all being so polite about it that it's almost 
offensive!

Alban Hertroys
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cut the trees and you'll find there is no forest.



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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

 

> We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value 
> the opinions of others.

> A CoC is not the place to say some animals are more equal than others. A core 
> commiter calling someone the n- or b- words is just as bad as me, a non 
> commiter (if not worse!)

Yes it is.  If a stranger comes and wants something changed, and Tom Lane says 
no. You should go with Tom Lane.  Period.

Now the whole n-or-b thing gets into obvious not helpful dialogue which is not 
helpful.  I'm sure anyone would agree that if Tom called me a nigger, it's not 
helpful to our communication, and you should therefore tell him to shut-up 
regardless who he is.

So the point is, some things ARE about fluffy opinions and when such disputes 
arise and there is a tie, the people who have contributed to a project more 
should win.

So that means if you like Josh's Coc as much as my  Coc and you can't decide 
you should go with his.



> While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of 
> changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma 
such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as 
sensitive to the usage. 

> What psychological trauma? From changing terms? Are you crazy? (See for that 
> you'd like to the CoC to tell me why that wasn't an appropriate way to 
> express my disbelief that someone would equate a change of term to 
> psychological trauma.

Think about if all your life when you've been talking about replication you've 
been using master/slave, and someone says from now on, It's leader/follower.

So now in every conference you go to you need to catch yourself when you are 
saying Master/Slave – oops I meant to say Leader / Follower.

To me that's psychological trauma.  It's the same psychological trauma I had to 
face being born a left-handed and being forced to write with my right-hand.



> Also, "because it's been that way always" and "it would be a minor 
> inconvience to a lot of people" are rarely good reasons to dismiss a valid 
> objection to a term.

I left the door open for that intentionally – we are more okay with changing 
new undecided terms than old terms.  I should add cost in there.  



> Also, why did you have a quote at the top? Were you responding to something?

Mistake.

 

Thanks,

Regina



Jim

On January 11, 2016 5:56:08 PM EST, Regina Obe mailto:l...@pcorp.us> > wrote:

 

 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a 
recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in 
being a victim than moving forward.


Here is my latest version.  Let me know if I should throw in a github repo so 
it's easier to read or if you have other plans for a Coc.


  _  




Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is made up 
of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast differences of opinions 
and 
styles of communication. Our community is made up of people from many cultures 
and walks of life who have come together 
with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping others 
use this software.

We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean
code, documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or 
working groups, 
package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which further 
our mission, and providing bug reports.

If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member
of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very highly.  

We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value 
the opinions of others.  
This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to further 
our mission, and for newcomers, 
their intention has not yet been established.

We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel welcomed.

To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people interacting 
with our community to follow these guidelines when in our
public spaces.  By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels, Code 
repositories, and
reporting bug reports

GUIDELINES

1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. 
2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that furthers 
the discussion, say nothing.

By helpful we mean for example:
If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an obvious 
answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of the manual that 
covers it.

If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to help, 
point them to this link: 
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems

3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be about you.
For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the words 
master and slave come up in discussion,
do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night.

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V2

[Joshua D. Drake]

tl;dr;

* Modified #2 to be less harsh.
* Modified #3 with TGL and James comments
* Did not remove examples as I believe they are vital to the success

I saw Regina's post, I believe it is good for context but I also believe 
that something concise and to the point is the better path.


PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing 
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person 
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and 
collaborative way.


2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community, 
anyone can get offended at anything.


3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
of non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to 
gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, 
race or personal attacks.


4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.


5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.


6. The CoC is not about Social Justice.

Sincerely,

JD

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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

> """ A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of 
> non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, 
> disability, physical appearance, body size or race. """

I really think you should leave out the whole " gender, sexual orientation, 
disability, physical appearance, body size or race."

I can think of several things not accounted for there that I consider personal 
and a big turn-off.

As I said my biggest issue is when people are not helpful and make snide 
remarks about my choice of operating system, what mail client I use, or what 
editor I use to edit my code with, and what is my preferred programming 
language.  That is not covered.

So the point is not being helpful should be avoided. If you are helpful  it's 
really hard to be making fun of people's gender, sexual orientation, disability 
, physical appearance, body size or race or any other special classifications 
someone identifies themselves with.

I think people understand the concept of helpful.


Thanks,
Regina






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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

Why must it be free of personal comments?

"Tom, I like the way you handed this issue. Good work!" Is a personal comment.

Why do we need lists? What specifically is wrong with "that focuses on the tech 
and not the person" version?

Jim

On January 11, 2016 6:04:03 PM EST, "Joshua D. Drake"  
wrote:
>On 01/11/2016 02:54 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> "Joshua D. Drake"  writes:
>>> How about we meet in the middle:
>>
>>> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
>>> of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual
>>> orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or
>>> personal attacks.
>>
>> That's not really meeting in the middle: it still specifies exactly
>> one set of disapproved topics.  Might be OK if it read like
>> "... personal comments, for example ones related to gender, ..."
>
>Tom,
>
>Oh good point. I like that. So:
>
>A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
>of non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to 
>gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size,
>
>race or personal attacks.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>JD
>
>
>-- 
>Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
>PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
>Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
>control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

> We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value 
> the opinions of others.

A CoC is not the place to say some animals are more equal than others. A core 
commiter calling someone the n- or b- words is just as bad as me, a non 
commiter (if not worse!)

> While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of 
> changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma 
such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as 
sensitive to the usage. 

What psychological trauma? From changing terms? Are you crazy? (See for that 
you'd like to the CoC to tell me why that wasn't an appropriate way to express 
my disbelief that someone would equate a change of term to psychological trauma.

Also, "because it's been that way always" and "it would be a minor inconvience 
to a lot of people" are rarely good reasons to dismiss a valid objection to a 
term.

Also, it all sounds too fluffy.

Also, why did you have a quote at the top? Were you responding to something?

Jim

On January 11, 2016 5:56:08 PM EST, Regina Obe  wrote:
>
>> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
>purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
>interested in being a victim than moving forward.
>
>Here is my latest version.  Let me know if I should throw in a github
>repo so it's easier to read or if you have other plans for a Coc.
>
>-
>
>
>Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is
>made up of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast
>differences of opinions and 
>styles of communication. Our community is made up of people from many
>cultures and walks of life who have come together 
>with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping
>others use this software.
>
>We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean code,
>documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or
>working groups, 
>package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which
>further our mission, and providing bug reports.
>
>If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member
>of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very
>highly.  
>
>We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we
>value the opinions of others.  
>This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to
>further our mission, and for newcomers, 
>their intention has not yet been established.
>
>We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel
>welcomed.
>
>To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people
>interacting with our community to follow these guidelines when in our
>public spaces.  By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels,
>Code repositories, and reporting bug reports
>
>GUIDELINES
>
>1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. 
>2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that
>furthers the discussion, say nothing.
>
>By helpful we mean for example:
>If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an
>obvious answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of
>the manual that covers it.
>
>If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to
>help, point them to this link:
>https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems
>
>3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be
>about you.
>For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the
>words master and slave come up in discussion,
>do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night.
>
>4) Do not ask questions that are unrelated to the mission of our
>project.
>
>USE OF TRIGGER TERMS
>
>We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some
>past trauma for some people.
>While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the
>effort of changing long understood terminology and the psychological
>trauma 
>such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not
>as sensitive to the usage. 
>As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more
>than we do of renaming old features.
>
>HANDLING ISSUES
>
>We understand that through no fault of anybody, a person may make a
>comment they consider harmless that others find very offensive or makes
>another feel small. As project maintainers
>we will monitor these and gently call people out on them even if they
>are a member of our maintainer group.
>
>By gentle call out, we mean something like "I think what X was trying
>to say was that you need to do this" or point them to this document and
>specific bullet point we feel they violated.
>
>We expect of every

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/11/2016 02:54 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

"Joshua D. Drake"  writes:

How about we meet in the middle:



A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual
orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or
personal attacks.


That's not really meeting in the middle: it still specifies exactly
one set of disapproved topics.  Might be OK if it read like
"... personal comments, for example ones related to gender, ..."


Tom,

Oh good point. I like that. So:

A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to 
gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, 
race or personal attacks.


Sincerely,

JD


--
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Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one
that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather than
on the person behind them.

I still prefer this wording as there is no need for us to list the ways in 
which someone can personally be attacked. Should the list include relative's 
weight, religion, aliveness, past follies, jobs &c. 

The quote above is sufficiently powerful to allow members of this group to 
reprimand anyone for stepping out of bounds without having to shoehorn their 
objection into a very narrow list.

Lists of specific points like this are almost always the wrong way to do 
something general. Title VI (and policies based on it) includes a list for very 
specific reasons and we're seeing the issues that brings as that list isn't 
always inclusive enough.

Jim

On January 11, 2016 5:48:38 PM EST, "Joshua D. Drake"  
wrote:
>On 01/11/2016 02:41 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote:
 "3)  A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment
>is
 free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a
 community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic."

>>
>>> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
>>> of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual
>orientation,
>>> disability, physical appearance, body size or race.
>>
>> Between these two I still prefer my wording here because it
>> encompasses all personal attacks regardless of topic or type and
>> avoids hot-button words that distract from the point and can be used
>> for lawyering.  It also emphasizes the desired behavior instead, that
>> criticism should be about the technical merit of the topic.  "Don't
>be
>> a jerk, and stick to the code."  Maybe even rewording it to be a
>> positive instead of a negative would improve it further.
>>
>> "A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one
>> that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather
>than
>> on the person behind them."
>>
>
>How about we meet in the middle:
>
>A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
>of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual 
>orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or 
>personal attacks.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
>PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
>Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
>control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
>
>
>-- 
>Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Regina Obe]

> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a 
> recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in 
> being a victim than moving forward.

Here is my latest version.  Let me know if I should throw in a github repo so 
it's easier to read or if you have other plans for a Coc.

-


Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is made up 
of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast differences of opinions 
and 
styles of communication. Our community is made up of people from many cultures 
and walks of life who have come together 
with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping others 
use this software.

We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean code, 
documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or working 
groups, 
package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which further 
our mission, and providing bug reports.

If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member
of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very highly.  

We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value 
the opinions of others.  
This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to further 
our mission, and for newcomers, 
their intention has not yet been established.

We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel welcomed.

To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people interacting 
with our community to follow these guidelines when in our
public spaces.  By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels, Code 
repositories, and reporting bug reports

GUIDELINES

1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. 
2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that furthers 
the discussion, say nothing.

By helpful we mean for example:
If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an obvious 
answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of the manual that 
covers it.

If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to help, 
point them to this link: 
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems

3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be about you.
For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the words 
master and slave come up in discussion,
do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night.

4) Do not ask questions that are unrelated to the mission of our project.

USE OF TRIGGER TERMS

We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some past trauma 
for some people.
While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of 
changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma 
such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as 
sensitive to the usage. 
As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more than we do 
of renaming old features.

HANDLING ISSUES

We understand that through no fault of anybody, a person may make a comment 
they consider harmless that others find very offensive or makes another feel 
small. As project maintainers
we will monitor these and gently call people out on them even if they are a 
member of our maintainer group.

By gentle call out, we mean something like "I think what X was trying to say 
was that you need to do this" or point them to this document and specific 
bullet point we feel they violated.

We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a kind 
and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person didn't 
mean harm by it, 
simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. 

If anyone is being  purposely antagonistic please notify the project maintainer 
group at ... with the specific occurrence and evidence that made you feel this 
way.
We will judge if your complaints are valid and if we deem they are valid we 
will talk with the person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out 
if we determine behavior change is not possible.

We do not tolerate those we feel are trying to derail our project by injecting
discussions that have little to do with the mission of our project.
If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make demands for change, 
we will try to tell you that kindly
and request you to change or leave.

We promise as project maintainers to apply the same standards on ourselves as 
we apply to others.



Thanks,
Regina




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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Tom Lane]

"Joshua D. Drake"  writes:
> How about we meet in the middle:

> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
> of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual 
> orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or 
> personal attacks.

That's not really meeting in the middle: it still specifies exactly
one set of disapproved topics.  Might be OK if it read like
"... personal comments, for example ones related to gender, ..."

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

> So is life. We aren't here to wipe butts and change a diaper.

But the original isn't constructive of what to do. If I am attacked personally 
I will feel offended, the point is what I do about it. Whining about bring 
offended vs bringing it up and saying that it is not acceptable behaviour are 
very different.

Worse, the original is nothing more than victim blaming.

Even worse, it's useless as not feeling offence isn't what this is about. What 
to do when you feel offended is.


> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual 
orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race
I prefer my or the siblings more positive wording than an explicit negative of 
the types of personal attacks we don't like. We don't want any personal attacks!

Jim

On January 11, 2016 5:44:56 PM EST, "Joshua D. Drake"  
wrote:
>On 01/11/2016 02:30 PM, James Keener wrote:
>> (Sorry for the dup post. I felt having a clean thread without having
>to
>> cross-reference was worth the minor faux pas.)
>>
>>>3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
>free
>> of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability,
>physical
>> appearance, body size or race.
>>
>> why not
>>
>>> 3.A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
>free
>> of ad hominem.
>
>I still think we need the examples which is why I sent this a few 
>minutes ago:
>
>""" A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
>free
>of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual 
>orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. """
>
>
>> Moreover,
>>
>>>2. The CoC is not about being offended.The act of being offended is
>> purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is
>more
>> interested in being a victim than moving forward.
>>
>> is very harsh.
>
>So is life. We aren't here to wipe butts and change a diaper. However, 
>yes I do agree that it is harsh. The point is really in relation to #6,
>
>the CoC is not about Social Justice.
>
>There are people in this community, people I know personally who will 
>abuse this CoC if it is not exceedingly clear that their ability to be 
>offended is not relevant.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>JD
>
>
>
>-- 
>Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
>PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
>Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
>control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/11/2016 02:41 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote:

"3)  A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a
community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic."




A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation,
disability, physical appearance, body size or race.


Between these two I still prefer my wording here because it
encompasses all personal attacks regardless of topic or type and
avoids hot-button words that distract from the point and can be used
for lawyering.  It also emphasizes the desired behavior instead, that
criticism should be about the technical merit of the topic.  "Don't be
a jerk, and stick to the code."  Maybe even rewording it to be a
positive instead of a negative would improve it further.

"A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one
that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather than
on the person behind them."



How about we meet in the middle:

A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual 
orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or 
personal attacks.




--
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PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Adrian Klaver]

On 01/11/2016 02:27 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 01/11/2016 02:22 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote:

3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
appearance, body size or race.


I think you meant "free OF comments".


I did.



However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of
which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'.  Does that mean I can't use
"he/she" pronouns?  It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize
people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country.
Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like:

"3)  A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a
community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic."



First, I want to make sure we don't get too far into the weeds here.


That is exactly where this is going to go. From a previous example given 
as something to emulate:


http://couchdb.apache.org/conduct.html

Diversity Statement

" ... No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we 
welcome you. Though no list can hope to be comprehensive, we explicitly 
honour diversity in: age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity 
or expression, language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, 
political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, 
socioeconomic status, subculture and technical ability. ..."


You start down this path and you create more and more classifications 
and explanations of interactions between classifications, until even the 
lawyers beg for mercy. In the end it either turns into a mine field of 
unreasonable expectations or folks realize that what they really want 
can be encapsulated in, 'Be nice'.




I think your example is a good one but I do think we need examples so
perhaps:

A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual
orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race.

???


Per your previous post:

"We could add the word inappropriate.." So who decides what is 
appropriate or for that matter safe or respectful? Or do we resort to 
the Justice Stewart test, to paraphrase, '"I know it when I see it, and 
this is not it". In which case we are back to the eye of the beholder.





Sincerely,

JD




--
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adrian.kla...@aklaver.com


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/11/2016 02:30 PM, James Keener wrote:

(Sorry for the dup post. I felt having a clean thread without having to
cross-reference was worth the minor faux pas.)


3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free

of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
appearance, body size or race.

why not


3.A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free

of ad hominem.


I still think we need the examples which is why I sent this a few 
minutes ago:


""" A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual 
orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. """




Moreover,


2. The CoC is not about being offended.The act of being offended is

purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
interested in being a victim than moving forward.

is very harsh.


So is life. We aren't here to wipe butts and change a diaper. However, 
yes I do agree that it is harsh. The point is really in relation to #6, 
the CoC is not about Social Justice.


There are people in this community, people I know personally who will 
abuse this CoC if it is not exceedingly clear that their ability to be 
offended is not relevant.


Sincerely,

JD



--
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PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Brian Dunavant]

>> "3)  A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
>> free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a
>> community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic."
>>

> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
> of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation,
> disability, physical appearance, body size or race.

Between these two I still prefer my wording here because it
encompasses all personal attacks regardless of topic or type and
avoids hot-button words that distract from the point and can be used
for lawyering.  It also emphasizes the desired behavior instead, that
criticism should be about the technical merit of the topic.  "Don't be
a jerk, and stick to the code."  Maybe even rewording it to be a
positive instead of a negative would improve it further.

"A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one
that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather than
on the person behind them."


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[James Keener]

(Sorry for the dup post. I felt having a clean thread without having to
cross-reference was worth the minor faux pas.)

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability,
physical appearance,
body size or race.

why not

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of ad hominem.

I don't see why we need to limit comments like in the original: that's not
the point! The point is that people shouldn't be attacked!

Moreover,

> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
interested in being a victim than moving forward.

is very harsh.  It definitely needs to be rephrased or built on. What is
the point of this, by the way? If we state that personal attacks are
unbecoming of a member of this group, then does it matter if I'm offended
when someone says we should have a table that lacks 1-M 1-F constraints for
marriage? It's not an attack and trying to clarify the differences between
being offended because of an attack on me or just in general might make
things too awkward to write.

Jim

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Joshua D. Drake 
wrote:

> On 01/11/2016 02:22 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote:
>
>> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
>>> comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
>>> appearance, body size or race.
>>>
>>
>> I think you meant "free OF comments".
>>
>
> I did.
>
>
>> However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of
>> which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'.  Does that mean I can't use
>> "he/she" pronouns?  It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize
>> people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country.
>> Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like:
>>
>> "3)  A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
>> free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a
>> community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic."
>>
>>
> First, I want to make sure we don't get too far into the weeds here.
>
> I think your example is a good one but I do think we need examples so
> perhaps:
>
> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
> of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual
> orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race.
>
> ???
>
> Sincerely,
>
> JD
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
> Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
> control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
>
>
> --
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>

Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/11/2016 02:22 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote:

3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
appearance, body size or race.


I think you meant "free OF comments".


I did.



However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of
which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'.  Does that mean I can't use
"he/she" pronouns?  It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize
people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country.
Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like:

"3)  A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a
community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic."



First, I want to make sure we don't get too far into the weeds here.

I think your example is a good one but I do think we need examples so 
perhaps:


A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual 
orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race.


???

Sincerely,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Brian Dunavant]

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
> comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
> appearance, body size or race.

I think you meant "free OF comments".

However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of
which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'.  Does that mean I can't use
"he/she" pronouns?  It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize
people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country.
Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like:

"3)  A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is
free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a
community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic."


-- 
Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general

[GENERAL] WIP: CoC

[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project:

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing 
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person 
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and 
collaborative way.


2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is 
purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more 
interested in being a victim than moving forward.


3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical 
appearance, body size or race.


4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.


5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.


6. The CoC is not about Social Justice.


Sincerely,

JD

P.S. I sent this to the old thread first, please ignore that one and 
work with this one.

--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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