Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
am Mon, dem 08.10.2007, um 15:46:04 -0500 mailte Scott Marlowe folgendes: > Actually CC to the sender is the norm on this list. I believe there Okay, no problem. I'm knowing other lists like the german debian user list and there is this CC to the sender unwanted. Andreas -- Andreas Kretschmer Kontakt: Heynitz: 035242/47150, D1: 0160/7141639 (mehr: -> Header) GnuPG-ID: 0x3FFF606C, privat 0x7F4584DA http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous"X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
"Alvaro Herrera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > A. Kretschmer wrote: > >> As far i can see your mails are correct. But one exclusion: please no >> CC: to the sender, i'm reading the list. > > The additional CC: to sender is customary on these lists. Generally it's just how Internet mailing lists work. There's some header you can add to your own emails to request mailers not add it. But I don't remember what it is. You can also tell majordomo not to forward you messages on the list to which you were cc'd. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
On 10/8/07, A. Kretschmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > am Mon, dem 08.10.2007, um 12:00:30 -0700 mailte Richard Broersma Jr > folgendes: > > --- "A. Kretschmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > at least post them and see what kind of response you get, > > > > > rather than judge the list as a whole due to the response you got to > > > > an > > > > > off-topic post. Many of the people on the lists have been here for > > > > years and > > > > > have gotten lots of helpful advice, which is why they've stuck > > > > > > Can you please see this shit of broken lines? This is from YOU! > > > > I use yahoo. I guess that yahoo's web-based client must be broken also, > > since I've seem email I've > > posted has produce broken lines. I am not sure if this was already > > mentioned, does anyone know of > > non-html windows email clients that work well for this mailing list? > > As far i can see your mails are correct. But one exclusion: please no > CC: to the sender, i'm reading the list. > > But yes: thats all isn't realy a problem and that has nothing to do with > our topic. Please, no war about email-software. We are all PG-users and > the idea behind the list is to help together and not to fight against. > Peace and end of discussion about this, okay? Actually CC to the sender is the norm on this list. I believe there is a majordomo command that will cause it to change the reply to all headers such that you won't get the CC. The reason for the CC to sender is that someone may be reading the list who isn't necessarily subscribed to it, from such things as being CC'd from another list, etc... If they replied only to the list, you might not see their reply for several hours while it was being moderated. More info available by sending an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with help in the body... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
A. Kretschmer wrote: > As far i can see your mails are correct. But one exclusion: please no > CC: to the sender, i'm reading the list. The additional CC: to sender is customary on these lists. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvherre/ "How amazing is that? I call it a night and come back to find that a bug has been identified and patched while I sleep."(Robert Davidson) http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-sql/2006-03/msg00378.php ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
am Mon, dem 08.10.2007, um 12:00:30 -0700 mailte Richard Broersma Jr folgendes: > --- "A. Kretschmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > at least post them and see what kind of response you get, > > > > rather than judge the list as a whole due to the response you got to > > > an > > > > off-topic post. Many of the people on the lists have been here for > > > years and > > > > have gotten lots of helpful advice, which is why they've stuck > > > > Can you please see this shit of broken lines? This is from YOU! > > I use yahoo. I guess that yahoo's web-based client must be broken also, since > I've seem email I've > posted has produce broken lines. I am not sure if this was already > mentioned, does anyone know of > non-html windows email clients that work well for this mailing list? As far i can see your mails are correct. But one exclusion: please no CC: to the sender, i'm reading the list. But yes: thats all isn't realy a problem and that has nothing to do with our topic. Please, no war about email-software. We are all PG-users and the idea behind the list is to help together and not to fight against. Peace and end of discussion about this, okay? Andreas -- Andreas Kretschmer Kontakt: Heynitz: 035242/47150, D1: 0160/7141639 (mehr: -> Header) GnuPG-ID: 0x3FFF606C, privat 0x7F4584DA http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
--- "A. Kretschmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > at least post them and see what kind of response you get, > > > rather than judge the list as a whole due to the response you got to > > an > > > off-topic post. Many of the people on the lists have been here for > > years and > > > have gotten lots of helpful advice, which is why they've stuck > > Can you please see this shit of broken lines? This is from YOU! I use yahoo. I guess that yahoo's web-based client must be broken also, since I've seem email I've posted has produce broken lines. I am not sure if this was already mentioned, does anyone know of non-html windows email clients that work well for this mailing list? Regards, Richard Broersma Jr. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A. Kretschmer wrote: > am Mon, dem 08.10.2007, um 13:05:50 -0400 mailte Bill Bartlett folgendes: (Makes me have to think twice about raising any _real_ issues though, like why my VACUUMs periodically keep >> getting into lock contentions with my JDBC connections and ultimately >> causing me to have to shut down Postgres w/ "pg_ctl stop -m immediate", or how Hello, Discussions on the validity or non validity of Microsoft software are not for this list. Further, requesting that people change their behavior wholesale because of a particular piece of software's limitations are also not for this list, unless that software is PostgreSQL. May we please get this back on topic. Joshua D. Drake - -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ UNIQUE NOT NULL Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHCnkmATb/zqfZUUQRAtsyAKCmvc8VF01cLNtm3SztzwxeeaHoMQCcC9yC tCyMXOlZMZ5LWL9GnJB+OTQ= =z4dp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
am Mon, dem 08.10.2007, um 13:05:50 -0400 mailte Bill Bartlett folgendes: > > > (Makes me have to think twice about raising > > > any _real_ issues though, like why my VACUUMs periodically keep > getting > > > into lock contentions with my JDBC connections and ultimately > causing me > > > to have to shut down Postgres w/ "pg_ctl stop -m immediate", or how > to > > > properly handle postmaster errors that don't appear to be documented > > > anywhere except in the source code... [No, it's not the absolutely > > > > most recent version of Postgres; No, I can't upgrade it.]) > > > > This isn't fair, Bill. Your original question concerned posts your > > email client has trouble processing, which isn't the primary > > topic of the list. You also knew that it was somewhat contentious, > given that > > you've made comments such as "Believe me, I'm not defending > > Outlook", so you probably weren't overly surprised at some of the > > responses you got. Also note that the responses you got were attempts > to > > solve your problem: I don't see any that only belittled your choice of > software. > > > > Most people didn't completely read my email and thus unfortunately > completely missed the point, in many cases seemingly because they were > too quick to jump on my use of Outlook as an email client (thus assuming > I was just one of "those" terrible horrible know-nothing Windows users). I can speak only for myself, but when i see damaged mails (with, for instance, broken quoting-line as you can see above, then i think: 'apparently a windoze-user'. I don't need to know the headers. > It's obvious from 3 years of reading these forums that there is a "Linux > Postgres users good, Windows Postgres users bad" bias by many (but not > all) of the members rather than them realizing that " 'we' are all > Postgres users, 'those' other horrible people are MySQL / Oracle / etc No, sorry. We are all PG-users. Nothing else. > Rereading my original email, you can see that the problem I was trying > to address was not my choice of email software but rather that several > people in these Postgres listservs (like other people in other > listservs) were intentionally misusing a specific header flag that is > used by specific email programs (only the various "Outlook"-related Outlook isn't a email-programm, it's a PITA. Nothing else. Okay, maybe a PIM. But not an email-software, for this case it can't work. At least in a useful way. > normally just grit my teeth and ignore it.) After researching this flag > further (after seeing the feedback I got on this forum), I've discovered > that this type of misuse is frequently used, and even recommended on > many Linux-oriented web sites as a means, to annoy Outlook-based users > (as a means to annoy Windows users). As I mentioned above, I think in a > forum such as this, where "we" need to all be Postgres users, I don't You should realize: Postings/Mailings generated with OjE are 'Broken by Design'. I don't need to see the headers to recognize, that the posting/email was generated with this pice of broken software, i can see it in the body. Let me say the same with other words: not the linux-users smells, the posting/emails, generated with M$-software, smells! Thats the point. > (Just for the record, not that I should have to justify my background > and biases [or hopefully lack thereof] to the group: I gave up fighting > platform wars a LOOONG time ago, back when I used to try to get the Again: i don't want a fight (or war) on OS or email-client, but, please, realise: for mailings-list there are good and not-so-good software available. And all M$-shit isn't suitable. Rule of thumb. > Windows servers). I may be using Windows on my desktop, but I don't > think I'd put myself into the category of being merely one of "those > terrible horrible know-nothing Windows users".) Noboday said that. But again, realise, Outlook and OE isn't a good email-software. It's shit, straightforward. > > at least post them and see what kind of response you get, > > rather than judge the list as a whole due to the response you got to > an > > off-topic post. Many of the people on the lists have been here for > years and > > have gotten lots of helpful advice, which is why they've stuck Can you please see this shit of broken lines? This is from YOU! Again: i've cut off the X- - header. But i wish, all users here are using functioning email-software. It makes more easily for all. And again: Outlook and OE isn't a functioning email-software. Obviously. And sorry for my broken english... Andreas -- Andreas Kretschmer Kontakt: Heynitz: 035242/47150, D1: 0160/7141639 (mehr: -> Header) GnuPG-ID: 0x3FFF606C, privat 0x7F4584DA http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
"Scott Marlowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 10/8/07, Bill Bartlett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> (But I'm still not going to post the problem I've been >> hitting recently running Postgres 7.4.1 on a SuSE 9.0 box -- somehow I >> think the first few responses might be "get OFF that version". >> [Hopefully will upgrade very soon, but can't just yet on that specific >> machine. Meanwhile it's a production server so I'll just have to deal >> with it...]) Why can't you? We're talking about order of 5 minutes downtime in exchange you avoid the risk of several data loss, data corruption, server cash, and security holes. Actually there are a few changes in 7.4.x that could require more work to upgrade. If your database locale is something like Hungarian or if you have invalidly encoded UTF8 strings in your database you might have some issues having upgraded. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
On 10/8/07, Bill Bartlett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Most people didn't completely read my email and thus unfortunately > completely missed the point, in many cases seemingly because they were > too quick to jump on my use of Outlook as an email client (thus assuming > I was just one of "those" terrible horrible know-nothing Windows users). Just to be fair, this can also affect evolution email client on linux as well. But I quit using it a while back in favor of thunderbird so haven't seen these headers cause problems in quite some time. > It's obvious from 3 years of reading these forums that there is a "Linux > Postgres users good, Windows Postgres users bad" bias by many (but not > all) of the members rather than them realizing that " 'we' are all > Postgres users I wouldn't quite go that far, but there are definitely plenty of people of the attitude of "you chose windows, you deal with it" attitude. I tend to be that way on very specific windows just because I don't know enough about it to be helpful, but I generally just keep that to myself. > To be fair to these listservs though, they are MUCH better than many in > terms of providing support, and I can't remember the last time I saw a > flame war erupt. Even when they do, they're usually pretty polite flame wars. :) > (But I'm still not going to post the problem I've been > hitting recently running Postgres 7.4.1 on a SuSE 9.0 box -- somehow I > think the first few responses might be "get OFF that version". > [Hopefully will upgrade very soon, but can't just yet on that specific > machine. Meanwhile it's a production server so I'll just have to deal > with it...]) You'll notice that most of the time that that's posted, it's also accompanied by other advice. But running 7.4.1 is like driving a pinto in a demolition derby, you're just asking for big trouble, and no one wants to see you burst into flames, metaphorically speaking. I wonder if there's a way of having your MTA scrape the headers of incoming mail so those x-headers can be removed. I'd imagine it's a simple hack in sendmail / qmail etc... on unix. Don't know about Windows. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
> -Original Message- > From: Michael Glaesemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 3:25 PM > To: Bill Bartlett > Cc: 'Andreas Kretschmer'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off > > > > (Makes me have to think twice about raising > > any _real_ issues though, like why my VACUUMs periodically keep getting > > into lock contentions with my JDBC connections and ultimately causing me > > to have to shut down Postgres w/ "pg_ctl stop -m immediate", or how to > > properly handle postmaster errors that don't appear to be documented > > anywhere except in the source code... [No, it's not the absolutely > > most recent version of Postgres; No, I can't upgrade it.]) > > This isn't fair, Bill. Your original question concerned posts your > email client has trouble processing, which isn't the primary > topic of the list. You also knew that it was somewhat contentious, given that > you've made comments such as "Believe me, I'm not defending > Outlook", so you probably weren't overly surprised at some of the > responses you got. Also note that the responses you got were attempts to > solve your problem: I don't see any that only belittled your choice of software. > Most people didn't completely read my email and thus unfortunately completely missed the point, in many cases seemingly because they were too quick to jump on my use of Outlook as an email client (thus assuming I was just one of "those" terrible horrible know-nothing Windows users). It's obvious from 3 years of reading these forums that there is a "Linux Postgres users good, Windows Postgres users bad" bias by many (but not all) of the members rather than them realizing that " 'we' are all Postgres users, 'those' other horrible people are MySQL / Oracle / etc users". I forgot that by posting about a header flag which could be traced back to a Microsoft product, I'd be stepping right smack into that muck. Rereading my original email, you can see that the problem I was trying to address was not my choice of email software but rather that several people in these Postgres listservs (like other people in other listservs) were intentionally misusing a specific header flag that is used by specific email programs (only the various "Outlook"-related ones, as far as I've been able to determine) to highlight messages for special handling. Granted that they were using it for "joking" purposes, but after a while, all jokes get old. (After spending 4 days in a row dealing with significant Postgres system crashes on several different servers, "old" just happened to rub me the wrong way whereas I normally just grit my teeth and ignore it.) After researching this flag further (after seeing the feedback I got on this forum), I've discovered that this type of misuse is frequently used, and even recommended on many Linux-oriented web sites as a means, to annoy Outlook-based users (as a means to annoy Windows users). As I mentioned above, I think in a forum such as this, where "we" need to all be Postgres users, I don't think it's appropriate to intentionally annoy any of our group. (That may not have been the intent, but after seeing the many Linux-oriented web sites and forums recommending its use for specifically this purpose, now it does annoy me even more.) (Just for the record, not that I should have to justify my background and biases [or hopefully lack thereof] to the group: I gave up fighting platform wars a LOOONG time ago, back when I used to try to get the corporate world to bring in Macs instead of Windows 3.x. Now I generally use the best tool for the job, or the tools I have to use when that's not an option. Insofar as systems and OS's, I am currently handling 140+ servers running a pretty much even split between Win2K3 and various versions of Linux (primarily several SuSE 9.x versions, a few Red Hats and at least one Debian), with VMware instances of 2 SuSE "servers" running inside this specific XP development desktop, managing pretty much everything remotely via SSH and bash (via Cygwin on the Windows servers). I may be using Windows on my desktop, but I don't think I'd put myself into the category of being merely one of "those terrible horrible know-nothing Windows users".) > > If you *are* having issues with PostgreSQL, it would behoove you to > at least post them and see what kind of response you get, > rather than judge the list as a whole due to the response you got to an > off-topic post. Many of the people on the lists have
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
(Makes me have to think twice about raising any _real_ issues though, like why my VACUUMs periodically keep getting into lock contentions with my JDBC connections and ultimately causing me to have to shut down Postgres w/ "pg_ctl stop -m immediate", or how to properly handle postmaster errors that don't appear to be documented anywhere except in the source code... [No, it's not the absolutely most recent version of Postgres; No, I can't upgrade it.]) This isn't fair, Bill. Your original question concerned posts your email client has trouble processing, which isn't the primary topic of the list. You also knew that it was somewhat contentious, given that you've made comments such as "Believe me, I'm not defending Outlook", so you probably weren't overly surprised at some of the responses you got. Also note that the responses you got were attempts to solve your problem: I don't see any that only belittled your choice of software. If you *are* having issues with PostgreSQL, it would behoove you to at least post them and see what kind of response you get, rather than judge the list as a whole due to the response you got to an off-topic post. Many of the people on the lists have been here for years and have gotten lots of helpful advice, which is why they've stuck around, and are many others that are happy to share their advice and experience. You never know: you might be pleasantly surprised. Best, Michael Glaesemann grzm seespotcode net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Andreas Kretschmer > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:55 PM > To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off > > > Bill Bartlett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > A. Kretschmer > > > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:57 AM > > > To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > > > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / > > > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off > > > > > > > > > am Fri, dem 05.10.2007, um 10:05:32 -0400 mailte Bill > > > Bartlett folgendes: > > > > Quick request to the group: we have several members who > > > include bogus > > > > or "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers in their email > > > messages. Could I > > > > request that you _please_ turn them off? Because they come > > > through as > > Outlook is a PITA. As you can see, it breaks the lines in > quotings. Hard > to read, because any mail readers can colored different > quoting planes. > Disgusting. Agreed - never said it wasn't. But putting time into changing to something else is time that I just won't have for the foreseeable future. > > See other reply -- I'm not complaining that Outlook is > broken but rather > > that the misuse of this flag slows down my workflow. The > issue is that > > I think, you have any other problems with this crappy software. For > instance, Outlook can't group messages by Message-IDs (Treading). For > mailing-lists IMHO a no-go. Agreed - but I'm not debating the merits of Outlook. It's a tool that does a job, and for all its faults, for what I need right now and for the very limited time I have avaiable, it does the job. > > > And yes: there are any email-software available, without > > > problems. Including Windows. > > > > Hmm ... I still use "Pine" on some of my really old Linux > boxes -- does > > this count? (Useful for reading CRON output...) > > Pine isn't a solution, mutt is a solution for instance. KMail is a > solution, and Thunderbird, both for Linux and Windows. > (and any other software, i'm a mutt-user) Again, for what I need and how I need to use it, pine is a perfectly good solution that works (although in looking at cone, that definitely looks like a much better solution). For the specific cases where I use pine, neither KMail nor Thunderbird is a workable solution at all, since I need to use a console-mode mail reader running on remote servers being accessed via SSH and without being able to forward X-Windows so anything graphical is out. (I always need to match an appropriate solution to the problem, and part of that is realizing that one single solution does not always fit every problem.) > > > Please, don't beat me if this header are still in this > > > message, the problem is work in progress... i'm not sure if i > > > change the config properly. > > > > Yes, it's working properly now. MUCH thanks! > > No problem, but i'm not sure, if this the right way. YOU > can't force all > other people to omit things that make problems in your crappy > software. > And: YOU renounce for nice feature in modern software... Never mind -- it's not that big a deal, certainly not as much as everyone has turned it into. I assumed that this would be a simple request about a simple problem, but I didn't realize I'd have to spend so much time trying to justify to so many people on the listserv the tools I have to use to do my job. (btw: The heading is back on in this reply, so there must be some other setting somewhere in your mail program that needs to be tweaked. But don't worry about trying to change anything else -- my effort involved in correcting the misdirected emails is probably less than your effort in trying to configure different headers for different groups, so I wouldn't want you to waste any more time on it.) Anyway - to those people still slogging through this thread who haven't moved on to something more productive: no more emails on this please; I'm done with this subject. (Makes me have to think twice about raising any _real_ issues though, like why my VACUUMs periodically keep getting into lock contentions with my JDBC connections and ultimately causing me to have to shut down Postgres w
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
Bill Bartlett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A. Kretschmer > > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:57 AM > > To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / > > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off > > > > > > am Fri, dem 05.10.2007, um 10:05:32 -0400 mailte Bill > > Bartlett folgendes: > > > Quick request to the group: we have several members who > > include bogus > > > or "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers in their email > > messages. Could I > > > request that you _please_ turn them off? Because they come > > through as Outlook is a PITA. As you can see, it breaks the lines in quotings. Hard to read, because any mail readers can colored different quoting planes. Disgusting. > See other reply -- I'm not complaining that Outlook is broken but rather > that the misuse of this flag slows down my workflow. The issue is that I think, you have any other problems with this crappy software. For instance, Outlook can't group messages by Message-IDs (Treading). For mailing-lists IMHO a no-go. > > And yes: there are any email-software available, without > > problems. Including Windows. > > Hmm ... I still use "Pine" on some of my really old Linux boxes -- does > this count? (Useful for reading CRON output...) Pine isn't a solution, mutt is a solution for instance. KMail is a solution, and Thunderbird, both for Linux and Windows. (and any other software, i'm a mutt-user) > > Please, don't beat me if this header are still in this > > message, the problem is work in progress... i'm not sure if i > > change the config properly. > > Yes, it's working properly now. MUCH thanks! No problem, but i'm not sure, if this the right way. YOU can't force all other people to omit things that make problems in your crappy software. And: YOU renounce for nice feature in modern software... (sorry, english isn't my native language and i know my english is bad) Andreas -- Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect. (Linus Torvalds) "If I was god, I would recompile penguin with --enable-fly."(unknow) Kaufbach, Saxony, Germany, Europe. N 51.05082°, E 13.56889° ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
> -Original Message- > From: Scott Marlowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:30 PM > To: Bill Bartlett > Cc: A. Kretschmer; pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off > > > On 10/5/07, Bill Bartlett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hmm ... I still use "Pine" on some of my really old Linux boxes -- > > does this count? (Useful for reading CRON output...) > > If you need / want the familiar interface of pine on a modern > linux box, look for cone. > > Note that there's also an open source implementation of pico > called nano. > > Just FYI. I use both, quite a bit. > I just starting using nano, although I still tend to use vi a lot more than I should. (Never got into the whole emacs thing tho.) I hadn't heard of cone, so I'll have to take a look for that. Thanks for the tip! (Long live the console!) - Bill ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
On 10/5/07, Bill Bartlett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hmm ... I still use "Pine" on some of my really old Linux boxes -- does > this count? (Useful for reading CRON output...) If you need / want the familiar interface of pine on a modern linux box, look for cone. Note that there's also an open source implementation of pico called nano. Just FYI. I use both, quite a bit. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A. Kretschmer > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:57 AM > To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off > > > am Fri, dem 05.10.2007, um 10:05:32 -0400 mailte Bill > Bartlett folgendes: > > Quick request to the group: we have several members who > include bogus > > or "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers in their email > messages. Could I > > request that you _please_ turn them off? Because they come > through as > > Do you mean me? Not specifically -- yours just happened to be the one that triggered it, but no, I see this in postings from other people as well. (Didn't mean to single you out though.) > > flagged messages in Outlook, it throws off my email rules > processing > > and the messages end up into the wrong groups. (With the volume of > > This header is a special Outlook-Feature. If this header > realy make problems in _this_ software, then i think, _this_ > software is broken. But hey, tell news ;-) See other reply -- I'm not complaining that Outlook is broken but rather that the misuse of this flag slows down my workflow. The issue is that because this flag is useful when used properly (e.g.: for mail rules like "take all messages flagged for followup and move them to specific other folders for different types of followup"), having the flag be added to emails just for the sake of putting in a "humorous" message just gets in the way. (I keep needing to go fish the incorrectly-flagged messages back out of the various followup folders before I can completely follow the threads in the Postgres listservs.) > And yes: there are any email-software available, without > problems. Including Windows. Hmm ... I still use "Pine" on some of my really old Linux boxes -- does this count? (Useful for reading CRON output...) > > (Yes, I understand people's personal preferences for not liking > > Windows or Outlook or Microsoft, but that isn't going to change the > > applications that I need to use for my day-to-day work. > Feel free to > > continue > > Okay, i like this list and i like the people here. I will try > to disable this special header line for this and only this > list (okay, for all postgresql-lists). Let me try, i'm not > sure how to disable this header-line only for [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Please, don't beat me if this header are still in this > message, the problem is work in progress... i'm not sure if i > change the config properly. Yes, it's working properly now. MUCH thanks! > Andreas > -- > Andreas Kretschmer > Kontakt: Heynitz: 035242/47150, D1: 0160/7141639 (mehr: -> Header) > GnuPG-ID: 0x3FFF606C, privat 0x7F4584DA http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net > > ---(end of > broadcast)--- > TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
On Oct 5, 2007, at 10:56 , Bill Bartlett wrote: * Given it's an X- header, doesn't that mean the meaning of the value is implementation dependent? What's "bogus" wrt Outlook may not be wrt another mail system or client * Doesn't this indicate that Outlook is broken (for some values of broken)? Actually, no -- this is why I listed a specific X- header ( X-Message-Flag ) rather than simply saying "Hey, would everyone please turn off their X-headers". This specific X- header is designed to have Outlook "flag" a message and display an extra line of text with the flag comment above the email. If it were a specific *Outlook* header, shouldn't it be namespaced? e.g., X-Outlook-Message-Flag? Might not other email clients operate differently when they encounter the X-Message-Flag? For example, in your message, I see an X-MSMail-Priority flag, which I assume is a Microsoft-specific X-header. (I may very well be interpreting this wrong: brief googling didn't turn up anything, and I'm not an email guru.) Anyway, that's all I have to say on the topic: I suggested alternatives, and as it's not a problem for me — and I don't believe my emails include X-Message-Flag headers so I'm not contributing to your problem — hope you find a solution that works for you. Michael Glaesemann grzm seespotcode net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
> -Original Message- > From: Michael Glaesemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:45 AM > To: Bill Bartlett > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off > > > > On Oct 5, 2007, at 9:05 , Bill Bartlett wrote: > > > Quick request to the group: we have several members who include > > bogus or > > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers in their email messages. Could I > > request that you _please_ turn them off? > > In all practicality, a request like this is futile: > * Given the number of people on the list, you'll never get everybody > to remove "bogus" > X-Message-Flag headers > * Given it's an X- header, doesn't that mean the meaning of > the value > is implementation dependent? What's "bogus" wrt Outlook may not be > wrt another mail system or client > * Doesn't this indicate that Outlook is broken (for some values of > broken)? Actually, no -- this is why I listed a specific X- header ( X-Message-Flag ) rather than simply saying "Hey, would everyone please turn off their X-headers". This specific X- header is designed to have Outlook "flag" a message and display an extra line of text with the flag comment above the email. Since this is generally only used to flag messages for followup actions, having messages come across with the header already embedded in them simply serves to add an extra distraction to the already-too-many bits into which I need to slice my time. (Not that I want more time for things like my having to spend 3 hrs yesterday regenerating sequences after diagnosing a database crash [bad disk controller on an old SuSE box] and restoring from backup, but that's my real world...) > > Because they come through as > > flagged messages in Outlook, it throws off my email rules > processing > > and the messages end up into the wrong groups. (With the volume of > > email these days, I definitely need all the assistance I > can get from > > things like rules processing to attempt to stay on top of it.) > > I sympathize. there *is* a lot of email traffic these days (and not > just from the lists). But rather than request that others bend to > your rules, I'd think a better solution would be to find (or > develop) > tools that do what you want. Whether that means better rule handling > or better understanding of various headers, it sounds like Outlook > isn't doing the job for you. Perhaps a hybrid approach would be > helpful: use another email client for mailing lists and Outlook > otherwise. See above -- the problem isn't with Outlook at a mail client. Outlook is doing exactly what it's supposed to do when it sees this X- header: highlighting it and flagging the message for special handling. The issue is with the headers being used (or misused) as they are. Believe me, I'm not defending Outlook; however, that's what I (and many other people) use -- it's just a tool to get a job done. (For all you non-Outlook people out there, since you aren't seeing the messages anyway, most of them are generally humorous messages like ' "Windows" is not the answer. "Windows" is the question and the answer is "no"! ' or ' Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect. (Linus Torvalds) ' Yes, they were funny 2 years ago when I first saw them, but now it's gotten a bit old -- sorry. [No, I'm not meaning to single out Andreas -- his just happened to be the first two that I saw in my "listserv items of useful Postgresql stuff to keep for reference" folder.]) > > Hope this gives you some ideas. > > Michael Glaesemann > grzm seespotcode net > > ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
am Fri, dem 05.10.2007, um 10:05:32 -0400 mailte Bill Bartlett folgendes: > Quick request to the group: we have several members who include bogus or > "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers in their email messages. Could I > request that you _please_ turn them off? Because they come through as Do you mean me? > flagged messages in Outlook, it throws off my email rules processing > and the messages end up into the wrong groups. (With the volume of This header is a special Outlook-Feature. If this header realy make problems in _this_ software, then i think, _this_ software is broken. But hey, tell news ;-) And yes: there are any email-software available, without problems. Including Windows. > (Yes, I understand people's personal preferences for not liking Windows > or Outlook or Microsoft, but that isn't going to change the applications > that I need to use for my day-to-day work. Feel free to continue Okay, i like this list and i like the people here. I will try to disable this special header line for this and only this list (okay, for all postgresql-lists). Let me try, i'm not sure how to disable this header-line only for [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please, don't beat me if this header are still in this message, the problem is work in progress... i'm not sure if i change the config properly. Andreas -- Andreas Kretschmer Kontakt: Heynitz: 035242/47150, D1: 0160/7141639 (mehr: -> Header) GnuPG-ID: 0x3FFF606C, privat 0x7F4584DA http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
On 10/5/07, Michael Glaesemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Oct 5, 2007, at 9:05 , Bill Bartlett wrote: > * Given it's an X- header, doesn't that mean the meaning of the value > is implementation dependent? What's "bogus" wrt Outlook may not be > wrt another mail system or client > * Doesn't this indicate that Outlook is broken (for some values of > broken)? Ummm. Given that some may contain the group all, I guess that's technically correct. :) It's not the only area in which Lookout! make it obvious it's broken. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Request: Anyone using bogus / "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers, could we please turn them off
On Oct 5, 2007, at 9:05 , Bill Bartlett wrote: Quick request to the group: we have several members who include bogus or "humorous" X-Message-Flag headers in their email messages. Could I request that you _please_ turn them off? In all practicality, a request like this is futile: * Given the number of people on the list, you'll never get everybody to remove "bogus" X-Message-Flag headers * Given it's an X- header, doesn't that mean the meaning of the value is implementation dependent? What's "bogus" wrt Outlook may not be wrt another mail system or client * Doesn't this indicate that Outlook is broken (for some values of broken)? Because they come through as flagged messages in Outlook, it throws off my email rules processing and the messages end up into the wrong groups. (With the volume of email these days, I definitely need all the assistance I can get from things like rules processing to attempt to stay on top of it.) I sympathize. there *is* a lot of email traffic these days (and not just from the lists). But rather than request that others bend to your rules, I'd think a better solution would be to find (or develop) tools that do what you want. Whether that means better rule handling or better understanding of various headers, it sounds like Outlook isn't doing the job for you. Perhaps a hybrid approach would be helpful: use another email client for mailing lists and Outlook otherwise. Hope this gives you some ideas. Michael Glaesemann grzm seespotcode net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend