Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Josh Berkus wrote: My problem with this whole idea is that it seems to be very MySQL-specific. Why aren't we providing help for users migrating from Oracle, Sybase, Informix, Ingres, DB2, SQLServer and Firebird, to name but a few? And if we turn all those on by default, we'll have a pretty horrible banner when starting psql. We should do all of those. However, we have to start somewhere. Therefore, I like the idea of having a switch, like: \advice mysql \advice db2 etc. ALSO, I'll point out that a page in our official documentation with extensive docs on commands and migration issues would be far more helpful than any amount of psql messages. Just sayin'. I don't think we came to any firm conclusion in this thread, so I have added a TODO item: Add option to print advice for people familiar with other databases * http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2010-01/msg01845.php -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Josh, On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: My problem with this whole idea is that it seems to be very MySQL-specific. Why aren't we providing help for users migrating from Oracle, Sybase, Informix, Ingres, DB2, SQLServer and Firebird, to name but a few? And if we turn all those on by default, we'll have a pretty horrible banner when starting psql. We should do all of those. However, we have to start somewhere. Therefore, I like the idea of having a switch, like: \advice mysql \advice db2 etc. ALSO, I'll point out that a page in our official documentation with extensive docs on commands and migration issues would be far more helpful than any amount of psql messages. Just sayin'. Hypothetically, if I had time to help with something like that, is there a wiki or something where I could help draft it, without needing to get all elbows-deep into the documentation itself? Baron -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Baron, Hypothetically, if I had time to help with something like that, is there a wiki or something where I could help draft it, without needing to get all elbows-deep into the documentation itself? wiki.postgresql.org. --Josh -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
2010/1/25 Baron Schwartz ba...@xaprb.com: Hi Cédric, On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Cédric Villemain cedric.villemain.deb...@gmail.com wrote: 'psql --help mysql' (or 'psql --tips mysql' ) might be good to call a special helper : I don't see the point to introduce that kind of things when it is useless for most of our users. I think it's good to go beyond what's useful for most users. It's good to help potential users, too. Absolutly, that's why I suggest to give a simple option to activate those helpers. We didn't remove extra lines on the psql login to add anothers now. -- Cédric Villemain -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
If this option is designed to help people's transition - basically to get to them before they've got to most of the manual - having to turn it on will be pointless. It needs to be active by default. A way to avoid it being a default option in psql may be setting an alias as part of package installation so power users couid turn it off by without having to add a switch to their command lines. It's not going to have anything to say to experienced psql users anyway so it would probably not bug anyone enough to turn it off. Regards Alastair On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Cédric Villemain cedric.villemain.deb...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/1/25 Baron Schwartz ba...@xaprb.com: Hi Cédric, On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Cédric Villemain cedric.villemain.deb...@gmail.com wrote: 'psql --help mysql' (or 'psql --tips mysql' ) might be good to call a special helper : I don't see the point to introduce that kind of things when it is useless for most of our users. I think it's good to go beyond what's useful for most users. It's good to help potential users, too. Absolutly, that's why I suggest to give a simple option to activate those helpers. We didn't remove extra lines on the psql login to add anothers now. -- Cédric Villemain -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
* Alastair Bell Turner thebellh...@gmail.com [100125 11:07]: If this option is designed to help people's transition - basically to get to them before they've got to most of the manual - having to turn it on will be pointless. It needs to be active by default. A way to avoid it being a default option in psql may be setting an alias as part of package installation so power users couid turn it off by without having to add a switch to their command lines. It's not going to have anything to say to experienced psql users anyway so it would probably not bug anyone enough to turn it off. I'ld be more comfortable for a line in t the more standard help along the lines of: For more information on PSQL commands when coming from other databases, see the documentation. And then we can have a full discussion in the docs, psql man page, wherever, where you can actually *describe* the differences between the commands, etc, instead of loosing the useful information because of trying to stuff things into a 1-line message about something that might not have been intended... And then you can have a section on MySQL, SQLite, DB2, Informix, Firebird, Oracle, etc... Basically a section for whoever has an itch. a. -- Aidan Van Dyk Create like a god, ai...@highrise.ca command like a king, http://www.highrise.ca/ work like a slave. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Alastair Bell Turner wrote: If this option is designed to help people's transition - basically to get to them before they've got to most of the manual - having to turn it on will be pointless. It needs to be active by default. My problem with this whole idea is that it seems to be very MySQL-specific. Why aren't we providing help for users migrating from Oracle, Sybase, Informix, Ingres, DB2, SQLServer and Firebird, to name but a few? And if we turn all those on by default, we'll have a pretty horrible banner when starting psql. cheers andrew -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 6:14 PM, Andrew Dunstan and...@dunslane.net wrote: My problem with this whole idea is that it seems to be very MySQL-specific. Why aren't we providing help for users migrating from Oracle, Sybase, Informix, Ingres, DB2, SQLServer and Firebird, to name but a few? And if we turn all those on by default, we'll have a pretty horrible banner when starting psql. cheers andrew The easy way around that would be a message along the lines of ' \migrate for information on how the commands from your previous environment translate to psql' It's a bit verbose but could be trimmed I'm sure. The \migrate mysql, \migrate db2, \migrate ingres ... could all do their own thing. Some of the command specific responses won't be extened too much either since DESCRIBE and SHOW apply in multiple places similarly enough that the one line reminder could be interchangable. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Andrew Dunstan and...@dunslane.net wrote: Alastair Bell Turner wrote: If this option is designed to help people's transition - basically to get to them before they've got to most of the manual - having to turn it on will be pointless. It needs to be active by default. My problem with this whole idea is that it seems to be very MySQL-specific. Why aren't we providing help for users migrating from Oracle, Sybase, Informix, Ingres, DB2, SQLServer and Firebird, to name but a few? And if we turn all those on by default, we'll have a pretty horrible banner when starting psql. I don't really have a horse in this race, but perhaps the answer is that people are asking for MySQL help but no one is asking for help migrating from any of those other databases. At least not yet. But I think we're getting off into the weeds a little bit here. In theory, people who notice that psql gives the following message should be OK: Type help for help. Now when you type help, you get this: You are using psql, the command-line interface to PostgreSQL. Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help with psql commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit Now, at this point, if you are a MySQL user who wants to find the equivalent of SHOW TABLES and DESCRIBE, it's very plausible that you'll now try \h, because SHOW TABLES and DESCRIBE are SQL commands. Then you might try some things like: \h SHOW \h TABLE ...hoping to find what you're looking for. If you eventually go back and try \? you will hopefully notice this line (which at least in my terminal window doesn't even show up until the second page): \d[S+] list tables, views, and sequences It's not too much to hope that you'll try \d at this point and get a list of all your tables, but it's far from clear how you'd know that \d foo is the way to get the column definitions for foo. Maybe instead of (or in addition to) providing MySQL-specific help, we should find a way to emphasize the \d and \d table commands, because those are (IMO) two big things that people coming from ANY other database product are likely to want to find, and it's not as easy to find them right now as perhaps it should be. ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:06:53PM +0200, Alastair Bell Turner wrote: .. without having to add a switch to their command lines. It's not going to have anything to say to experienced psql users anyway so it would probably not bug anyone enough to turn it off. I would so use this feature going the other way: fire up comfortable psql and see what mysql command I need to type ... Having it in the interface (behind \help [mysql|oracle|firebird|mssql|..] seems reasonable to me, given how much info we already have in \help. I find the basic BNF help for SQL syntax still useful reminder, and know to go to the actual docs when there's not enough there. So a quick mapping of most-needed commands, and a pointer to the docs for the full ramifications and subtle differences seems to fit the existing documentation module. Ross -- Ross Reedstrom, Ph.D. reeds...@rice.edu Systems Engineer Admin, Research Scientistphone: 713-348-6166 The Connexions Project http://cnx.orgfax: 713-348-3665 Rice University MS-375, Houston, TX 77005 GPG Key fingerprint = F023 82C8 9B0E 2CC6 0D8E F888 D3AE 810E 88F0 BEDE -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:49:55AM -0600, Ross J. Reedstrom wrote: On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:06:53PM +0200, Alastair Bell Turner wrote: .. without having to add a switch to their command lines. It's not going to have anything to say to experienced psql users anyway so it would probably not bug anyone enough to turn it off. I would so use this feature going the other way: fire up comfortable psql and see what mysql command I need to type ... Having it in the interface (behind \help [mysql|oracle|firebird|mssql|..] seems reasonable to me, given how much info we already have in \help. I find the basic BNF help for SQL syntax still useful reminder, and know to go to the Well, behind \migrate or some other word as others have, since I see \help is just the SQL help I so praised. Ross -- Ross Reedstrom, Ph.D. reeds...@rice.edu Systems Engineer Admin, Research Scientistphone: 713-348-6166 The Connexions Project http://cnx.orgfax: 713-348-3665 Rice University MS-375, Houston, TX 77005 GPG Key fingerprint = F023 82C8 9B0E 2CC6 0D8E F888 D3AE 810E 88F0 BEDE -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Ross J. Reedstrom wrote: So a quick mapping of most-needed commands, and a pointer to the docs for the full ramifications and subtle differences seems to fit the existing documentation module. And that's been done at least twice already: http://blog.endpoint.com/2009/12/mysql-and-postgres-command-equivalents.html http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Converting_MySQL_to_PostgreSQL -- Greg Smith2ndQuadrant Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support g...@2ndquadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Ross J. Reedstrom wrote: On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:06:53PM +0200, Alastair Bell Turner wrote: .. without having to add a switch to their command lines. It's not going to have anything to say to experienced psql users anyway so it would probably not bug anyone enough to turn it off. I would so use this feature going the other way: fire up comfortable psql and see what mysql command I need to type ... Having it in the interface (behind \help [mysql|oracle|firebird|mssql|..] seems reasonable to me, given how much info we already have in \help. I find the basic BNF help for SQL syntax still useful reminder, and know to go to the actual docs when there's not enough there. So a quick mapping of most-needed commands, and a pointer to the docs for the full ramifications and subtle differences seems to fit the existing documentation module. It would be interesting to implement \help mysql, and then have commands like SHOW TABLE trigger a message suggesting they do \help mysql. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Hi Robert, On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe instead of (or in addition to) providing MySQL-specific help, we should find a way to emphasize the \d and \d table commands, Right, it's like cd and ls at the shell prompt. It's like walking into a dark room and not knowing where the light switch is. I'll think of more metaphors later. What if the text you see upon starting psql says something like Type \dt to ... type \h for more help ? -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Baron Schwartz ba...@xaprb.com wrote: Hi Robert, On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe instead of (or in addition to) providing MySQL-specific help, we should find a way to emphasize the \d and \d table commands, Right, it's like cd and ls at the shell prompt. It's like walking into a dark room and not knowing where the light switch is. I'll think of more metaphors later. What if the text you see upon starting psql says something like Type \dt to ... type \h for more help ? Well, we used to display this banner when psql started up: Welcome to psql 8.3.8, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal. Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help with psql commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit But it got changed, so now it just tells you to type help and if you do then you get that banner. But maybe that's OK. Since the banner isn't being printed on every startup, it might be OK for it to be a bit longer, like, I dunno: Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \d for a list of tables, views, and sequences in the current database \d name for more details on the named table, view, index, or sequence \? for further help with psql commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit That might be just enough of a push to get people pointed in the right direction. ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
My problem with this whole idea is that it seems to be very MySQL-specific. Why aren't we providing help for users migrating from Oracle, Sybase, Informix, Ingres, DB2, SQLServer and Firebird, to name but a few? And if we turn all those on by default, we'll have a pretty horrible banner when starting psql. We should do all of those. However, we have to start somewhere. Therefore, I like the idea of having a switch, like: \advice mysql \advice db2 etc. ALSO, I'll point out that a page in our official documentation with extensive docs on commands and migration issues would be far more helpful than any amount of psql messages. Just sayin'. --Josh Berkus -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
David Fetter just pointed this thread out to me. I think anything
that makes PostgreSQL more accessible could be a good thing. In some
sense it's harder to learn a technology when you are very familiar
with another similar one already. Is it easier to learn to type on
Dvorak, or to learn QWERTY and then switch to Dvorak? Switching was
harder for me than learning initially.
So I guess my advice, since David asked me :-) is not to underestimate
the pain of switching. I don't know whether this patch is the Right
Answer, but I think the sentiment is something to be encouraged. If
it's not the right answer, then maybe some brainstorming and user
input will reveal creative alternatives. I'll start:
== begin ==
Welcome to the POSTGRESQL interactive sql monitor:
Please read the file COPYRIGHT for copyright terms of POSTGRESQL
type \? for help on slash commands
type \mysql for a quick MySQL-to-PostgreSQL cheatsheet
somedb= \mysql
psql uses backslash keywords instead of SHOW commands. There is
also a standard INFORMATION_SCHEMA if you're familiar with that.
The following commands might be helpful as you learn how to use psql:
Command in mysql Command in psql
===
SHOW TABLES \dt
DESCRIBE \d
... and so on.
== end ==
The full list of SHOW commands, should anyone be interested, is at
http://dev.mysql.com/doc/en/show.html
Cheers,
Baron
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Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
2010/1/24 Baron Schwartz ba...@xaprb.com: David Fetter just pointed this thread out to me. I think anything that makes PostgreSQL more accessible could be a good thing. In some sense it's harder to learn a technology when you are very familiar with another similar one already. Is it easier to learn to type on Dvorak, or to learn QWERTY and then switch to Dvorak? Switching was harder for me than learning initially. So I guess my advice, since David asked me :-) is not to underestimate the pain of switching. I don't know whether this patch is the Right Answer, but I think the sentiment is something to be encouraged. If it's not the right answer, then maybe some brainstorming and user input will reveal creative alternatives. I'll start: 'psql --help mysql' (or 'psql --tips mysql' ) might be good to call a special helper : I don't see the point to introduce that kind of things when it is useless for most of our users. (so 'psql' won't output any tips relative to mysql) It offer then to have a 'psql --help oracle' or anyother special tips we want to provide for our new users and following their knowledge. And it will be able to provide usefull tips à la git for postgresql regular users. (selcet -- did you mean select instead of selcet ?) Regards, Cédric == begin == Welcome to the POSTGRESQL interactive sql monitor: Please read the file COPYRIGHT for copyright terms of POSTGRESQL type \? for help on slash commands type \mysql for a quick MySQL-to-PostgreSQL cheatsheet somedb= \mysql psql uses backslash keywords instead of SHOW commands. There is also a standard INFORMATION_SCHEMA if you're familiar with that. The following commands might be helpful as you learn how to use psql: Command in mysql Command in psql === SHOW TABLES \dt DESCRIBE \d ... and so on. == end == The full list of SHOW commands, should anyone be interested, is at http://dev.mysql.com/doc/en/show.html Cheers, Baron -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Cédric Villemain -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Hi Cédric, On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Cédric Villemain cedric.villemain.deb...@gmail.com wrote: 'psql --help mysql' (or 'psql --tips mysql' ) might be good to call a special helper : I don't see the point to introduce that kind of things when it is useless for most of our users. I think it's good to go beyond what's useful for most users. It's good to help potential users, too. - Baron -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
* David Christensen: Currently, a session will look like the following: machack:machack:5485=# show tables; See: \d or \? for general help with psql commands machack:machack:5485=# Said formatting looks like it could use some improvement, open to suggestions, but something on a single line seems more useful. You should at least make clear that this is an error message due to an unsupported command. The output above looks broken. Something like this should be okay, I think: ERROR: unrecognized configuration parameter tables NOTICE: use \d to list tables, or \? for general help with psql commands ERROR: unrecognized configuration parameter databases NOTICE: use \l to list databases, or \? for general help with psql commands (I hope that this is less controversial, too.) -- Florian Weimerfwei...@bfk.de BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstraße 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: * David Christensen: Currently, a session will look like the following: machack:machack:5485=# show tables; See: \d or \? for general help with psql commands machack:machack:5485=# Said formatting looks like it could use some improvement, open to suggestions, but something on a single line seems more useful. You should at least make clear that this is an error message due to an unsupported command. The output above looks broken. Something like this should be okay, I think: ERROR: unrecognized configuration parameter tables NOTICE: use \d to list tables, or \? for general help with psql commands ERROR: unrecognized configuration parameter databases NOTICE: use \l to list databases, or \? for general help with psql commands That's a very good point as far as the visibility is concerned. Should the error messages between the SHOW cases and the others be consistent (ERROR: unsupported command or similar)? It's worth noting that this is only in the psql client, but we could simulate the ereport output from the server. Regards, David -- David Christensen End Point Corporation da...@endpoint.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
2010/1/21 David Christensen da...@endpoint.com: On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: * David Christensen: Currently, a session will look like the following: machack:machack:5485=# show tables; See: \d or \? for general help with psql commands machack:machack:5485=# Said formatting looks like it could use some improvement, open to suggestions, but something on a single line seems more useful. You should at least make clear that this is an error message due to an unsupported command. The output above looks broken. Something like this should be okay, I think: ERROR: unrecognized configuration parameter tables NOTICE: use \d to list tables, or \? for general help with psql commands ERROR: unrecognized configuration parameter databases NOTICE: use \l to list databases, or \? for general help with psql commands That's a very good point as far as the visibility is concerned. Should the error messages between the SHOW cases and the others be consistent (ERROR: unsupported command or similar)? It's worth noting that this is only in the psql client, but we could simulate the ereport output from the server. I don't think so it is the best idea. I like different message types, because I able to identify place of error. If it is server or client error. Pavel Regards, David -- David Christensen End Point Corporation da...@endpoint.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
David Christensen da...@endpoint.com writes: Should the error messages between the SHOW cases and the others be consistent (ERROR: unsupported command or similar)? It's worth noting that this is only in the psql client, but we could simulate the ereport output from the server. No. Not unless you want to simulate it to the point of honoring the different verbosity settings, which would greatly expand the size of the patch. We do not try to make the response to help look like an error message, and I don't see the value of doing so here either. (I think Florian's real problem with the proposed output is that it's ugly, which I agree with --- the formatting is strange.) regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Tom Lane wrote: David Christensen da...@endpoint.com writes: Should the error messages between the SHOW cases and the others be consistent (ERROR: unsupported command or similar)? It's worth noting that this is only in the psql client, but we could simulate the ereport output from the server. No. Not unless you want to simulate it to the point of honoring the different verbosity settings, which would greatly expand the size of the patch. We do not try to make the response to help look like an error message, and I don't see the value of doing so here either. (I think Florian's real problem with the proposed output is that it's ugly, which I agree with --- the formatting is strange.) I'm with you on that one; I tried to address that in the second revision of the patch. But I'm definitely open to suggestions. Regards, David -- David Christensen End Point Corporation da...@endpoint.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
this is mostly true. I don't think any Oracle DBA will expect ALL_TABLES our DBA_TABLES to be there. however DESCRIBE and HELP would be the two that come to mind. greg On 20 Jan 2010 02:56, Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 Why would they want more? It's not MySQL, and they know that. If we give them some very minor ... +1 What if some other people will come up with the idea of adding similar functionality for thei... Ha! Best laugh I've had all week. The finger training consists of double click the mouse, navigate the GUI to find your table For command line, you have monstrosities such as select * from ALL_ALL_TABLES and select * from TABS - unless they've implemented some sort of shortcuts since the last time I used Oracle. Which seems very unlikely, as they obviously have no love for sqlplus (Oracle's command line client), which has been stuck technologically in place for decades (hello, readline?) - -- Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 201001192155 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iEYEAREDAAYFAktWcMkACgkQvJuQZxSWSsgAoQCgw/9e+viAs6RyGCeuSze42oqx Ym4An2Q9FSpXYkX1ZC507Y/NwUb3ODmG =fnUL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your su...
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On tis, 2010-01-19 at 11:43 -0800, Jeff Davis wrote: I'll make an analogy to: $ git difff git: 'difff' is not a git-command. See 'git --help'. Did you mean this? diff This is presumably spelling-based, which might be an interesting feature (although probably useless for psql's single-letter commands). Maybe this analogy is more interesting, for a user that recently used cvs: $ git update git: 'update' is not a git-command. See 'git --help'. Did you mean this? update-ref -- Probably not. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On tis, 2010-01-19 at 16:00 -0600, David Christensen wrote: Currently, a session will look like the following: machack:machack:5485=# show tables; See: \d or \? for general help with psql commands machack:machack:5485=# I think if you make show tables and the others actually execute \d and then possibly print a notice about what the better command would have been, you actually *help* people do their work instead of appearing to be a smartass -- See, we took the time to research what you want to do, and here is why it's wrong. Moreover, the backslash is really hard to type on some keyboards, so I'd expect significant uptake for people to use the SHOW variants as their primary method. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Peter Eisentraut wrote: On tis, 2010-01-19 at 16:00 -0600, David Christensen wrote: Currently, a session will look like the following: machack:machack:5485=# show tables; See: \d or \? for general help with psql commands machack:machack:5485=# I think if you make show tables and the others actually execute \d and then possibly print a notice about what the better command would have been, you actually *help* people do their work instead of appearing to be a smartass -- See, we took the time to research what you want to do, and here is why it's wrong. Moreover, the backslash is really hard to type on some keyboards, so I'd expect significant uptake for people to use the SHOW variants as their primary method. I disagree. No one has complained that we are being a smartass by reporting this for help in psql: You are using psql, the command-line interface to PostgreSQL. Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help with psql commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit while to be really helpful we would display \?. After extensive discussion we chose against that because we wanted to steer people to the proper commands, rather than have them consider 'help' as a valid command. The same is true for the MySQL commands --- we just want to point people to the proper commands. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On ons, 2010-01-20 at 09:05 -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: I disagree. No one has complained that we are being a smartass by reporting this for help in psql: You are using psql, the command-line interface to PostgreSQL. Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help with psql commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit while to be really helpful we would display \?. After extensive discussion we chose against that because we wanted to steer people to the proper commands, rather than have them consider 'help' as a valid command. The same is true for the MySQL commands --- we just want to point people to the proper commands. That's not the same thing. The user typed help and you help him. If the user types show tables, you show him the tables. If the user typed show tables and you send him a help message, that is not what the user wanted. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote: Peter Eisentraut wrote: On tis, 2010-01-19 at 16:00 -0600, David Christensen wrote: Currently, a session will look like the following: machack:machack:5485=# show tables; See: \d or \? for general help with psql commands machack:machack:5485=# I think if you make show tables and the others actually execute \d and then possibly print a notice about what the better command would have been, you actually *help* people do their work instead of appearing to be a smartass -- See, we took the time to research what you want to do, and here is why it's wrong. Moreover, the backslash is really hard to type on some keyboards, so I'd expect significant uptake for people to use the SHOW variants as their primary method. I disagree. No one has complained that we are being a smartass by reporting this for help in psql: You are using psql, the command-line interface to PostgreSQL. Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help with psql commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit while to be really helpful we would display \?. After extensive discussion we chose against that because we wanted to steer people to the proper commands, rather than have them consider 'help' as a valid command. The same is true for the MySQL commands --- we just want to point people to the proper commands. +1. ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: On ons, 2010-01-20 at 09:05 -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: I disagree. No one has complained that we are being a smartass by reporting this for help in psql: You are using psql, the command-line interface to PostgreSQL. Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help with psql commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit while to be really helpful we would display \?. After extensive discussion we chose against that because we wanted to steer people to the proper commands, rather than have them consider 'help' as a valid command. The same is true for the MySQL commands --- we just want to point people to the proper commands. That's not the same thing. The user typed help and you help him. If the user types show tables, you show him the tables. If the user typed show tables and you send him a help message, that is not what the user wanted. If what the user wanted was to be using MySQL, he is out of luck anyway. I'm actually no big advocate of the \d commands. They're basically magical queries that you can't easily see or edit - I've more than once wished for a WHERE clause (\df WHERE Result data type = 'internal' or what have you. But I don't have a practical solution for dealing with that problem, and I think trying to emulate MySQL is probably not a good idea... what if we wanted to make USE actually mean something some day? If it just prints out a helpful error message, that could still be possible (and we lose the helpful error message), but if people are expecting it to work, we're hosed. ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Robert Haas wrote: I'm actually no big advocate of the \d commands. They're basically magical queries that you can't easily see or edit - I've more than once wished for a WHERE clause (\df WHERE Result data type = 'internal' or what have you. You *can* easily see them, at least. Run psql -E or inside psql do \set ECHO_HIDDEN cheers andrew -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes: If what the user wanted was to be using MySQL, he is out of luck anyway. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about having a nice client tool for those people having to do both MySQL and PostgreSQL support, or new to PostgreSQL and comming from MySQL. I'll give my vote to Peter's idea that show tables; should better act as if you typed \d. I don't see what the gain is to refuse being nice to MySQL newcomers when someone actually does the work. If the USE keyword is one we want to keep free for our own usage, let just skip that compat option. I'm actually no big advocate of the \d commands. They're basically magical queries that you can't easily see or edit We already have the psql \set ECHO_HIDDEN command to easily see the query, then it's a copy/paste away. I'd propose to have this setting also make it so that the query it runs is placed in the buffer for next \e command, which is not the case in 8.4. Regards, -- dim -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Dimitri Fontaine wrote: Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes: If what the user wanted was to be using MySQL, he is out of luck anyway. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about having a nice client tool for those people having to do both MySQL and PostgreSQL support, or new to PostgreSQL and comming from MySQL. I'll give my vote to Peter's idea that show tables; should better act as if you typed \d. I don't see what the gain is to refuse being nice to MySQL newcomers when someone actually does the work. If the USE keyword is one we want to keep free for our own usage, let just skip that compat option. I think the problem is that many other MySQL commands will not work or be supported, and if you give the person the desired output _and_ a suggestion to use \d, the suggests is easily overlooked. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Dimitri Fontaine dfonta...@hi-media.com wrote: I'll give my vote to Peter's idea that show tables; should better act as if you typed \d. I guess we don't need a tables GUC. Show all wouldn't include it? Would we require a semicolon? Do we support \d-style globs? Still seems kinda messy. +1 for help to show the PostgreSQL command as a guess for what they want to do. -1 for MySQL emulation. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
I would personally emulate \d and take the chance for showing a funny warning, something like: hey, it's not MySql! or similar. I am sure we will Finder something appropriate. :) Inviato da iPhone Il giorno 20/gen/2010, alle ore 16.30, Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov ha scritto: Dimitri Fontaine dfonta...@hi-media.com wrote: I'll give my vote to Peter's idea that show tables; should better act as if you typed \d. I guess we don't need a tables GUC. Show all wouldn't include it? Would we require a semicolon? Do we support \d-style globs? Still seems kinda messy. +1 for help to show the PostgreSQL command as a guess for what they want to do. -1 for MySQL emulation. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Dimitri Fontaine dfonta...@hi-media.com writes: I'll give my vote to Peter's idea that show tables; should better act as if you typed \d. We have previously considered and rejected this type of approach, for example in the pgsql-bugs discussion I referenced upthread. I don't see what the gain is to refuse being nice to MySQL newcomers when someone actually does the work. Nobody has actually done such work, nor offered to. If it did show up it would be a large and ugly patch that would have a good chance of being rejected. The proposed patch to just provide a helpful message is only a dozen or two lines, which is about the right amount of effort to expend in this direction IMHO. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us writes: The proposed patch to just provide a helpful message is only a dozen or two lines, which is about the right amount of effort to expend in this direction IMHO. For the record, agreed on the commands for which we have no obvious equivalent :) Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine PostgreSQL DBA, Architecte -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Hey -hackers,
I whipped up a quick patch for supporting some of the common mysql-
based meta commands; this is different than some things which have
been discussed in the past, in that it provides just a quick direction
to the appropriate psql command, not an actual alternative syntax for
the same action. This is not intended to be comprehensive, but just
to provide proper direction
The changes are in a single hunk touching only src/bin/psql/
mainloop.c; I modeled the code against the logic currently in place
for the help command.
First postgres patch, so bring it on^W^W^Wbe gentle. I obviously
don't expect this to not promote a wild debate/flamewar... ;-) The
formatting and specific wording for the various messages are totally
up-in-the-air, and gladly up for debate.
Regards,
David
--
David Christensen
End Point Corporation
da...@endpoint.com
diff --git a/src/bin/psql/mainloop.c b/src/bin/psql/mainloop.c
index e2914ae..cc89728 100644
--- a/src/bin/psql/mainloop.c
+++ b/src/bin/psql/mainloop.c
@@ -197,6 +197,48 @@ MainLoop(FILE *source)
continue;
}
+#define MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(o) \
+ (pg_strncasecmp(line, (o), strlen(o)) == 0 \
+ (line[strlen(o)] == '\0' || line[strlen(o)] == ';' ||
isspace((unsigned char) line[strlen(o)])))
+
+#define MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(o) \
+ free(line);\
+ printf(_(See:\n\
+o\
+\n\
+ or \\? for general
help with psql commands\n));\
+ fflush(stdout);\
+ continue;
+
+ /* Present the Postgres equivalent common mysqlisms */
+ if (pset.cur_cmd_interactive query_buf-len == 0)
+ {
+ if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(use))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\c database);
+ }
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(show tables))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\dt);
+ }
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(source))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\i filename);
+ }
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(show databases))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\l);
+ }
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(describe))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\d tablename);
+ }
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(load data infile))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\copy);
+ }
+ }
+
/* echo back if flag is set */
if (pset.echo == PSQL_ECHO_ALL !
pset.cur_cmd_interactive)
puts(line);
--
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Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 12:44 -0600, David Christensen wrote: Hey -hackers, I whipped up a quick patch for supporting some of the common mysql- based meta commands; this is different than some things which have been discussed in the past, in that it provides just a quick direction to the appropriate psql command, not an actual alternative syntax for the same action. This is not intended to be comprehensive, but just to provide proper direction I like that idea. There may be a lot of MySQL people that want to use the next postgresql release, and this would make it easier. Please add the patch to the next commitfest: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/commitfest_view?id=6 It's small enough that, if others like it as well, maybe it (or something similar) could still make it in this release. Regards, Jeff Davis -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Jeff Davis wrote: On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 12:44 -0600, David Christensen wrote: Hey -hackers, I whipped up a quick patch for supporting some of the common mysql- based meta commands; this is different than some things which have been discussed in the past, in that it provides just a quick direction to the appropriate psql command, not an actual alternative syntax for the same action. This is not intended to be comprehensive, but just to provide proper direction I like that idea. There may be a lot of MySQL people that want to use the next postgresql release, and this would make it easier. Please add the patch to the next commitfest: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/commitfest_view?id=6 It's small enough that, if others like it as well, maybe it (or something similar) could still make it in this release. I'm not convinced that we should start adding syntax helpers like that to psql. For now it is an arbitrary subset of MySQL stuff, are we going to add oracle/db2/mssql/drizzle/mariadb and whatnot later on? Also I can already see people asking well you already know that this is that command - why not emulate it fully?. So -1 on the general idea of providing that kind of stuff (though I think there is plenty of opportunity to make psql more useful in itself). Stefan -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
I'm not convinced that we should start adding syntax helpers like that to psql. For now it is an arbitrary subset of MySQL stuff, are we going to add oracle/db2/mssql/drizzle/mariadb and whatnot later on? Also I can already see people asking well you already know that this is that command - why not emulate it fully?. Good points. However, it only takes effect in interactive mode, so I don't see it as a promise to do much. I'll make an analogy to: $ git difff git: 'difff' is not a git-command. See 'git --help'. Did you mean this? diff Regards, Jeff Davis -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 11:43 -0800, Jeff Davis wrote: I'm not convinced that we should start adding syntax helpers like that to psql. For now it is an arbitrary subset of MySQL stuff, are we going to add oracle/db2/mssql/drizzle/mariadb and whatnot later on? Also I can already see people asking well you already know that this is that command - why not emulate it fully?. Good points. However, it only takes effect in interactive mode, so I don't see it as a promise to do much. I'll make an analogy to: On second thought, if it's not a very restricted set of words, it might limit what commands we can introduce later. In particular I notice that it uses load which is too similar to postgresql's LOAD. I think the words would need to be prefixed with something to separate them from normal commands. Regards, Jeff Davis -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Jeff Davis wrote: I'm not convinced that we should start adding syntax helpers like that to psql. For now it is an arbitrary subset of MySQL stuff, are we going to add oracle/db2/mssql/drizzle/mariadb and whatnot later on? Also I can already see people asking well you already know that this is that command - why not emulate it fully?. Good points. However, it only takes effect in interactive mode, so I don't see it as a promise to do much. I'll make an analogy to: $ git difff git: 'difff' is not a git-command. See 'git --help'. Did you mean this? diff well the actual output is just: :~$ git difff git: 'difff' is not a git-command. See 'git --help'. which is more or less the same as: postgres=# \mysql Invalid command \mysql. Try \? for help. so I don't really see why we need to add some random second guessing of what the user actually wanted (and if he is indeed a mysql refugee he can always use help and go on from there). Stefan -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
David Christensen escreveu: I whipped up a quick patch for supporting some of the common mysql-based meta commands; this is different than some things which have been discussed in the past, in that it provides just a quick direction to the appropriate psql command, not an actual alternative syntax for the same action. This is not intended to be comprehensive, but just to provide proper direction This idea was proposed and rejected later; search the archives. IMHO it's more appropriated for a wiki page than a PostgreSQL-*especific* help command. If we do that, we'll see requests like why don't you add _my-favorite-db-here_ help too?. So, -1. -- Euler Taveira de Oliveira http://www.timbira.com/ -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 20:52 +0100, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote: Jeff Davis wrote: I'm not convinced that we should start adding syntax helpers like that to psql. For now it is an arbitrary subset of MySQL stuff, are we going to add oracle/db2/mssql/drizzle/mariadb and whatnot later on? Also I can already see people asking well you already know that this is that command - why not emulate it fully?. Good points. However, it only takes effect in interactive mode, so I don't see it as a promise to do much. I'll make an analogy to: $ git difff git: 'difff' is not a git-command. See 'git --help'. Did you mean this? diff well the actual output is just: :~$ git difff git: 'difff' is not a git-command. See 'git --help'. Well, the actual output on my machine is what I put in the email. That being said, I don't have much of an opinion, so if you see a problem, then we can forget it. After all, we would need some kind of a prefix anyway to avoid conflicting with actual SQL... maybe \m? And that defeats a lot of the purpose. Regards, Jeff Davis -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Jeff Davis pg...@j-davis.com writes: That being said, I don't have much of an opinion, so if you see a problem, then we can forget it. After all, we would need some kind of a prefix anyway to avoid conflicting with actual SQL... maybe \m? And that defeats a lot of the purpose. Yeah, requiring a prefix would make it completely pointless I think. The submitted patch tries to avoid that by only matching syntax that's invalid in Postgres, but that certainly limits how far we can go with it. (And like you, I'm a bit worried about the LOAD case.) The last go-round on this was just a couple months ago: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-bugs/2009-11/msg00241.php although I guess that was aimed at a slightly different idea, namely making show databases etc actually *work*. This one at least has a level of complication that's more in keeping with the possible gain. The previous discussion started from the idea that only DESCRIBE, SHOW DATABASES/TABLES, and USE were worth worrying about. If we were to agree that we'd go that far and no farther, the potential conflict with SQL syntax would be pretty limited. I have little enough experience with mysql to not want to opine too much on how useful that would be, but it does seem like those are commands I use right away anytime I am using mysql. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 21:44, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: Jeff Davis pg...@j-davis.com writes: That being said, I don't have much of an opinion, so if you see a problem, then we can forget it. After all, we would need some kind of a prefix anyway to avoid conflicting with actual SQL... maybe \m? And that defeats a lot of the purpose. Yeah, requiring a prefix would make it completely pointless I think. Definitely. The submitted patch tries to avoid that by only matching syntax that's invalid in Postgres, but that certainly limits how far we can go with it. (And like you, I'm a bit worried about the LOAD case.) The last go-round on this was just a couple months ago: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-bugs/2009-11/msg00241.php although I guess that was aimed at a slightly different idea, namely making show databases etc actually *work*. This one at least has a level of complication that's more in keeping with the possible gain. I think the gain is actually better with this than to try to do the work. We'd want it to teach people what to do. The previous discussion started from the idea that only DESCRIBE, SHOW DATABASES/TABLES, and USE were worth worrying about. If we were to agree that we'd go that far and no farther, the potential conflict with SQL syntax would be pretty limited. I have little enough experience with mysql to not want to opine too much on how useful that would be, but it does seem like those are commands I use right away anytime I am using mysql. I think just getting te most common cases would still be quite helpful. Once you get the user to realize that hey, that backslash thing seems to do stuff, you've gone most of the way. -- Magnus Hagander Me: http://www.hagander.net/ Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
The previous discussion started from the idea that only DESCRIBE, SHOW DATABASES/TABLES, and USE were worth worrying about. If we were to agree that we'd go that far and no farther, the potential conflict with SQL syntax would be pretty limited. I have little enough experience with mysql to not want to opine too much on how useful that would be, but it does seem like those are commands I use right away anytime I am using mysql. I have no problems paring down the list of cases; these were the correspondences I saw off the top of my head. I definitely don't want to conflict with any SQL syntax. The exact wording/output of the messages can be adjusted at whim. Regards, David -- David Christensen End Point Corporation da...@endpoint.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Tom Lane wrote: Jeff Davis pg...@j-davis.com writes: That being said, I don't have much of an opinion, so if you see a problem, then we can forget it. After all, we would need some kind of a prefix anyway to avoid conflicting with actual SQL... maybe \m? And that defeats a lot of the purpose. Yeah, requiring a prefix would make it completely pointless I think. The submitted patch tries to avoid that by only matching syntax that's invalid in Postgres, but that certainly limits how far we can go with it. (And like you, I'm a bit worried about the LOAD case.) The last go-round on this was just a couple months ago: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-bugs/2009-11/msg00241.php although I guess that was aimed at a slightly different idea, namely making show databases etc actually *work*. This one at least has a level of complication that's more in keeping with the possible gain. The previous discussion started from the idea that only DESCRIBE, SHOW DATABASES/TABLES, and USE were worth worrying about. If we were to agree that we'd go that far and no farther, the potential conflict with SQL syntax would be pretty limited. I have little enough experience with mysql to not want to opine too much on how useful that would be, but it does seem like those are commands I use right away anytime I am using mysql. Agreed. I think this discussion mirrors the psql 'help' feature we added in 8.4. After a lot of discussion we decided that a limited 'help' functionality was the best approach --- the more we added the less attractive it became. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Tom Lane wrote: Jeff Davis pg...@j-davis.com writes: That being said, I don't have much of an opinion, so if you see a problem, then we can forget it. After all, we would need some kind of a prefix anyway to avoid conflicting with actual SQL... maybe \m? And that defeats a lot of the purpose. Yeah, requiring a prefix would make it completely pointless I think. The submitted patch tries to avoid that by only matching syntax that's invalid in Postgres, but that certainly limits how far we can go with it. (And like you, I'm a bit worried about the LOAD case.) yeah requiring a prefix would make it completely pointless The last go-round on this was just a couple months ago: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-bugs/2009-11/msg00241.php although I guess that was aimed at a slightly different idea, namely making show databases etc actually *work*. This one at least has a level of complication that's more in keeping with the possible gain. well providing a hint that one should use different command will only lead to the path uhm why not make it work as well - and we also need to recongnized that our replacements for some of those commands are not really equivalent in most cases. The previous discussion started from the idea that only DESCRIBE, SHOW DATABASES/TABLES, and USE were worth worrying about. If we were to agree that we'd go that far and no farther, the potential conflict with SQL syntax would be pretty limited. I have little enough experience with mysql to not want to opine too much on how useful that would be, but it does seem like those are commands I use right away anytime I am using mysql. well those are the most common ones I guess for the current version of the mysql commandline client - but what about future versions or the fact that we only have partial replacements for some of those that people are really asking for? Stefan -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
David Christensen wrote:
+ if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(use))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\c database);
+ }
[snip]
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(load data infile))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\copy);
+ }
Quite apart from any considerations covered by other people, these two
at least could be positively misleading ... the psql commands are not
exact equivalents of the MySQL commands, AIUI.
cheers
andrew
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Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote: Tom Lane wrote: Jeff Davis pg...@j-davis.com writes: That being said, I don't have much of an opinion, so if you see a problem, then we can forget it. After all, we would need some kind of a prefix anyway to avoid conflicting with actual SQL... maybe \m? And that defeats a lot of the purpose. Yeah, requiring a prefix would make it completely pointless I think. The submitted patch tries to avoid that by only matching syntax that's invalid in Postgres, but that certainly limits how far we can go with it. (And like you, I'm a bit worried about the LOAD case.) yeah requiring a prefix would make it completely pointless Agreed. The last go-round on this was just a couple months ago: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-bugs/2009-11/msg00241.php although I guess that was aimed at a slightly different idea, namely making show databases etc actually *work*. This one at least has a level of complication that's more in keeping with the possible gain. well providing a hint that one should use different command will only lead to the path uhm why not make it work as well - and we also need to recongnized that our replacements for some of those commands are not really equivalent in most cases. I think if you set this line ahead of time, you don't have to worry about the detractors; this is equivalent to vim outputting Type :quitEnter to exit Vim when you type emacs' quit sequence. The intent is to show the correct way or to provide a helpful reminder to people new to psql, not to make it work the same. The previous discussion started from the idea that only DESCRIBE, SHOW DATABASES/TABLES, and USE were worth worrying about. If we were to agree that we'd go that far and no farther, the potential conflict with SQL syntax would be pretty limited. I have little enough experience with mysql to not want to opine too much on how useful that would be, but it does seem like those are commands I use right away anytime I am using mysql. well those are the most common ones I guess for the current version of the mysql commandline client - but what about future versions or the fact that we only have partial replacements for some of those that people are really asking for? I think it captures the intent of the people using the tool, and that it adds a small net benefit in usability for those people. Deciding to support this small subset does not obligate you to expand the scope in the future. (Hey ma, this slope ain't slippery!) Regards, David -- David Christensen End Point Corporation da...@endpoint.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
David Christensen wrote:
+ if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(use))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\c database);
+ }
[snip]
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(load data
infile))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\copy);
+ }
Quite apart from any considerations covered by other people, these
two at least could be positively misleading ... the psql commands
are not exact equivalents of the MySQL commands, AIUI.
The \copy could definitely be considered a stretch; I know \c supports
more options than the equivalent USE, but isn't it a proper superset
of functionality?
Regards,
David
--
David Christensen
End Point Corporation
da...@endpoint.com
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Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 19, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote: well providing a hint that one should use different command will only lead to the path uhm why not make it work as well I don't think so. People know it's a different database. They'd be thrilled just to get the hint. I think it's a great idea (notwithstanding the caveats mentioned up-thread). Best, David -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
David Christensen wrote: Quite apart from any considerations covered by other people, these two at least could be positively misleading ... the psql commands are not exact equivalents of the MySQL commands, AIUI. The \copy could definitely be considered a stretch; I know \c supports more options than the equivalent USE, but isn't it a proper superset of functionality? Not really. use sets the default db in MySQL (and other DBs like Sybase and MSSQL). But you don't really connect to a particular database, unlike Postgres - you connect to the server. And you can directly query other databases than the default, again unlike Postgres where you can only directly query the database you're connected to. In fact, use is part of MySQL's SQL dialect, and can be used from any client, not just part of the metacommands of their commandline client. See http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/use.html cheers andrew -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
David Christensen da...@endpoint.com writes: On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote: well those are the most common ones I guess for the current version of the mysql commandline client - but what about future versions or the fact that we only have partial replacements for some of those that people are really asking for? I think it captures the intent of the people using the tool, and that it adds a small net benefit in usability for those people. Deciding to support this small subset does not obligate you to expand the scope in the future. (Hey ma, this slope ain't slippery!) I thought Magnus had a really good point: covering these four cases will probably be enough to teach newbies to look at psql's backslash commands. And once they absorb that, we're over a big hump. Also, TTBOMK these commands have been in mysql for many years. I don't think that commands that might get introduced in future versions would have anywhere near the same degree of wired-into-the-fingertips uptake to them. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
David Christensen da...@endpoint.com writes: On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Andrew Dunstan wrote: Quite apart from any considerations covered by other people, these two at least could be positively misleading ... the psql commands are not exact equivalents of the MySQL commands, AIUI. The \copy could definitely be considered a stretch; I know \c supports more options than the equivalent USE, but isn't it a proper superset of functionality? No, in fact I was going to bring up exactly that point, but Andrew beat me to it. You can make a good case that mysql databases are more nearly a match to PG schemas than to PG databases. So arguably instead of use foo a mysql convert would prefer set search_path = foo. This would have been a serious headache if we'd accepted the earlier plan of trying to implement equivalent functionality. In this patch, it could probably be accommodated by having the help message read something like Perhaps you want \c database or set search_path = schema. Or we could punt and leave this one out of the set that have help messages. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 11:25 -0800, Jeff Davis wrote: I like that idea. There may be a lot of MySQL people that want to use the next postgresql release, and this would make it easier. I disagree. If they want to use PostgreSQL, they should learn our syntax. How can you make sure that this will be enough for them? What if they want more? I have administrated lots of MySQL server until I started working for Command Prompt (I still take a look at one once a month, for a government related thing). +#define MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(o) \ What if some other people will come up with the idea of adding similar functionality for their favorite database? The only exception will be Informix IMHO, because of historical reasons. So, -1 from me for adding such a support for MySQL's cli commands. -- Devrim GÜNDÜZ, RHCE Command Prompt - http://www.CommandPrompt.com devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr http://www.gunduz.org Twitter: http://twitter.com/devrimgunduz signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Tom Lane wrote: David Christensen da...@endpoint.com writes: On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote: well those are the most common ones I guess for the current version of the mysql commandline client - but what about future versions or the fact that we only have partial replacements for some of those that people are really asking for? I think it captures the intent of the people using the tool, and that it adds a small net benefit in usability for those people. Deciding to support this small subset does not obligate you to expand the scope in the future. (Hey ma, this slope ain't slippery!) I thought Magnus had a really good point: covering these four cases will probably be enough to teach newbies to look at psql's backslash commands. And once they absorb that, we're over a big hump. Okay, so I can revise the code to cover those four cases specifically (or three, depending); is there any specific feedback as to the output/ formatting of the messages themselves? Currently, a session will look like the following: machack:machack:5485=# show tables; See: \d or \? for general help with psql commands machack:machack:5485=# Said formatting looks like it could use some improvement, open to suggestions, but something on a single line seems more useful. Also, TTBOMK these commands have been in mysql for many years. I don't think that commands that might get introduced in future versions would have anywhere near the same degree of wired-into-the-fingertips uptake to them. They were in there since when I last used mysql on a regular basis, so going on 10 years now. i.e., pretty safe, and pretty engrained in muscle-memory. Regards, David -- David Christensen End Point Corporation da...@endpoint.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Devrim GÜNDÜZ wrote: On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 11:25 -0800, Jeff Davis wrote: I like that idea. There may be a lot of MySQL people that want to use the next postgresql release, and this would make it easier. I disagree. If they want to use PostgreSQL, they should learn our syntax. How can you make sure that this will be enough for them? What if they want more? This is intended to be a gentle nudge in the right direction, not a replacement for their regular syntax. This does not perform the command in question, just points them to the right one, along with a general reminder that all kinds of good help is available via \?. I have administrated lots of MySQL server until I started working for Command Prompt (I still take a look at one once a month, for a government related thing). +#define MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(o) \ What if some other people will come up with the idea of adding similar functionality for their favorite database? The only exception will be Informix IMHO, because of historical reasons. I'm not sure what you're saying here WRT Informix; if there is substantial desire and a large enough group that would find such newbie hints useful, I'd say we could generalize this more, but I don't think this patch obligates one to any such future proposals. So, -1 from me for adding such a support for MySQL's cli commands. -- Devrim GÜNDÜZ, RHCE Command Prompt - http://www.CommandPrompt.com devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr http://www.gunduz.org Twitter: http://twitter.com/devrimgunduz Regards, David -- David Christensen End Point Corporation da...@endpoint.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Jan 19, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Tom Lane wrote: I thought Magnus had a really good point: covering these four cases will probably be enough to teach newbies to look at psql's backslash commands. And once they absorb that, we're over a big hump. +1 On Jan 19, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Devrim GÜNDÜZ wrote: I disagree. If they want to use PostgreSQL, they should learn our syntax. How can you make sure that this will be enough for them? What if they want more? Why would they want more? It's not MySQL, and they know that. If we give them some very minor helpful hints for the most common things they try to do, it would be a huge benefit to them. I know I've badly wanted the opposite when I've had to use MySQL, but I don't expect MySQL to implement \c for me. What if some other people will come up with the idea of adding similar functionality for their favorite database? The only exception will be Informix IMHO, because of historical reasons. I think it'd be helpful for other databases, too. Oracle comes to mind: What commands are finger-trained in Oracle DBAs? Best, David -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:14 PM, David E. Wheeler da...@kineticode.com wrote: Why would they want more? It's not MySQL, and they know that. If we give them some very minor helpful hints for the most common things they try to do, it would be a huge benefit to them. I know I've badly wanted the opposite when I've had to use MySQL, but I don't expect MySQL to implement \c for me. +1. I think this is a well-thought out proposal. I like Tom's suggestion upthread for how to handle \c. Although the deadline for patches for 8.5 has supposedly already passed ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:14 PM, David E. Wheeler da...@kineticode.com wrote:
On Jan 19, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
I thought Magnus had a really good point: covering these four cases will
probably be enough to teach newbies to look at psql's backslash
commands. And once they absorb that, we're over a big hump.
+1
On Jan 19, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Devrim GÜNDÜZ wrote:
I disagree. If they want to use PostgreSQL, they should learn our
syntax. How can you make sure that this will be enough for them? What if
they want more?
Why would they want more? It's not MySQL, and they know that. If we give them
some very minor helpful hints for the most common things they try to do, it
would be a huge benefit to them. I know I've badly wanted the opposite when
I've had to use MySQL, but I don't expect MySQL to implement \c for me.
What if some other people will come up with the idea of adding similar
functionality for their favorite database? The only exception will be
Informix IMHO, because of historical reasons.
I think it'd be helpful for other databases, too. Oracle comes to mind: What
commands are finger-trained in Oracle DBAs?
Best,
David
As a MySQL DBA the commands I think are most useful are:
show databases (please punt this, most MySQL dba's that I have worked
with will need to consider the difference between a db and a schema)
use database (please punt)
LOAD DATA INFILE(please punt, they should look at the manual as COPY
is... well, more limited)
show tables
desc(ribe) table
show processlist
I suggest adding:
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(show processlist))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(SELECT * from
pg_stat_activity);
+ }
+ else if (MYSQL_HELP_CHECK(desc))
+ {
+ MYSQL_HELP_OUTPUT(\\d tablename);
+ }
--
Rob Wultsch
wult...@gmail.com
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Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes: Although the deadline for patches for 8.5 has supposedly already passed I guess it already got more review than some of the commit fest items already… Regards, -- dim -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
On 20/01/2010 6:31 AM, Rob Wultsch wrote: As a MySQL DBA the commands I think are most useful are: show databases (please punt this, most MySQL dba's that I have worked with will need to consider the difference between a db and a schema) use database (please punt) So perhaps for SHOW DATABASES the help should suggest: \l - list databases; or \dn - list schema ? -- Craig Ringer -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] MySQL-ism help patch for psql
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 Why would they want more? It's not MySQL, and they know that. If we give them some very minor helpful hints for the most common things they try to do, it would be a huge benefit to them. +1 What if some other people will come up with the idea of adding similar functionality for their favorite database? The only exception will be Informix IMHO, because of historical reasons. I think it'd be helpful for other databases, too. Oracle comes to mind: What commands are finger-trained in Oracle DBAs? Ha! Best laugh I've had all week. The finger training consists of double click the mouse, navigate the GUI to find your table For command line, you have monstrosities such as select * from ALL_ALL_TABLES and select * from TABS - unless they've implemented some sort of shortcuts since the last time I used Oracle. Which seems very unlikely, as they obviously have no love for sqlplus (Oracle's command line client), which has been stuck technologically in place for decades (hello, readline?) - -- Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 201001192155 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iEYEAREDAAYFAktWcMkACgkQvJuQZxSWSsgAoQCgw/9e+viAs6RyGCeuSze42oqx Ym4An2Q9FSpXYkX1ZC507Y/NwUb3ODmG =fnUL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
