Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 01:14:34PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: On 2 May 2002, Hannu Krosing wrote: ... BTW, I think PostgreSQL does _not_ need any mission statement. Nope, it doesn't ... never did before, don't know why it does suddenly ... do any other open source projects have one? Its kinda fun to see what ppl banter around, but I can't see it being useful to adopt any single one, considering I can't see *everyone* agreeing with it ... Quick - get out the Dilbert! Patick ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Le Vendredi 3 Mai 2002 04:46, mlw a écrit : Corporate bullshit or not, it is a fact of life and a custom that we open source people need to accept. We write the best shit, we do the best work. We are more professional and dedicated than most professionals. Our quality is usually much better than proprietary our counterparts. Unfortunately business types do not understand us. If we are unable to reach the people who would decide to use our stuff, then it is our fault for failure. Therefore we need a moto. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Le Vendredi 3 Mai 2002 02:22, Thomas Lockhart a écrit : PostgreSQL is and will be the most advanced open-source database available anywhere. *** The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software world wide. Ultimately, PostgreSQL database is a gift to Humanity serving freedom, knowledge and equal access to information, and as such belongs to every Human. *** PostgreSQL is transcendantal, which means it goes beyond the original concept of its creators. People began working on it for various reasons (for professional needs, because of open-source code, to have fun) ... and ultimately it becomes a gift to Humanity. My feeling is that the PostgreSQL community is making history without even noticing it. You are all heroes my friends... Cheers, Jean-Michel POURE ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Scott Marlowe wrote: On 2 May 2002, Hannu Krosing wrote: The Politically Correct mission statement follows: The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining a good but not the best, mostly reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software and other worthy causes world wide and to not hurting anyones feelings in doing so. We are also committed to not cheating our SOs, not charging too much for our services nor eating too much and to recommending products of our commercial competitors before ours in order to help them fullfil their obligations to their stockholders. As a practicing polyamorist, I find the part about not cheating on our SOs highly offensive. :-) not cheating our SOs, !not cheating on our SOs ... you add an 'on' there that wasn't actually there :) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:45:45PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:14:03PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:41:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: A mission statement is like a tie. who on the list wears ties? How many people who make IT decisions wear ties? too many. I'm sorry I started this thread. when i hear mission statement and quality circle and internal customer, i cringe. if the corporate management doesn't want to buy into the Open Source concept, fuck 'em. trench warfare snippage Let's see... open source philosophy applied *into* corporate-speak should be doable 1. If you have an itch, scratch it. 2. If you want to know what's going on, use the source, luke! 3. More eyeballs = less bugs. 4. Software should be free (insert debates on speech, beer, use, licence XYZ vs. ABC, etc., I'm not going to bother). Hm...firing up my geekspeak-corporate BS translator. :-) How about: PostgreSQL creates a dynamic environment to ensure that all customers can effectly create highly customized solutions specific to their needs. We share and collaborate on both problems and solutions by making all information about our products available. By using this open and exciting environment, we increase the amount of successful software releases using advanced concepts of peer review and peer enhancement. We ensure our ongoing enhancement and improvement through our community, because our customers are also our creators. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go wash my mouth out with soap. -Ronabop ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Le Jeudi 2 Mai 2002 01:59, David Terrell a écrit : Provide a really good database and have fun doing it PostgreSQL Community is commited to providing Humanity with the best multi-purpose, reliable, open-source and free database system. How about We can store your data ? Just a late night thought... dali ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Is this an indication of a need for [EMAIL PROTECTED]? :) I like: We'll store your data; if we think it'll be an interesting enough diversion for us. -- Nigel Andrews On Thu, 2 May 2002, mlw wrote: Jean-Michel POURE wrote: Le Jeudi 2 Mai 2002 01:59, David Terrell a écrit : Provide a really good database and have fun doing it PostgreSQL Community is commited to providing Humanity with the best multi-purpose, reliable, open-source and free database system. The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software world wide. Who's that? Anyone disagree? ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Jean-Michel POURE wrote: Le Jeudi 2 Mai 2002 01:59, David Terrell a écrit : Provide a really good database and have fun doing it PostgreSQL Community is commited to providing Humanity with the best multi-purpose, reliable, open-source and free database system. The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software world wide. Who's that? Anyone disagree? ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:15:15AM -0400, mlw wrote: Jean-Michel POURE wrote: Le Jeudi 2 Mai 2002 01:59, David Terrell a écrit : Provide a really good database and have fun doing it PostgreSQL Community is commited to providing Humanity with the best multi-purpose, reliable, open-source and free database system. The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software world wide. Who's that? Anyone disagree? why does it have to be THE BEST ? that is insulting to the other projects like MySQL which while competitors are also a valid and useful benchmark for features, performance and keeping the postgresql community on its collective toes. postgresql is not THE BEST in all applications, so calling it that is inviting derision and pointless arguments. i'd go with: The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining a very reliable, open-source, multi-purpose, standards-based database, and encouraging participation in open-source usage and development world wide. -- [ Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 416 410-5633 ] [ I want to live forever, or die trying.] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:15:15AM -0400, mlw wrote: Jean-Michel POURE wrote: Le Jeudi 2 Mai 2002 01:59, David Terrell a écrit : Provide a really good database and have fun doing it PostgreSQL Community is commited to providing Humanity with the best multi-purpose, reliable, open-source and free database system. The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software world wide. Who's that? Anyone disagree? why does it have to be THE BEST ? that is insulting to the other projects like MySQL which while competitors are also a valid and useful benchmark for features, performance and keeping the postgresql community on its collective toes. This is interesting, a mission statement isn't necessarily about what is but about what we want to do, what it is that we intend to do, i.e. our mission. It is vital that a mission statement contain the superlatives. Mediocrity has no place here. I don't know about you, but I want PostgreSQL to be the best, be THE most reliable. Omitting best or most from the statement means that we should all just give up now, because PostgreSQL is pretty damn good already. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:43:04AM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: why does it have to be THE BEST ? that is insulting to the other projects like MySQL which while competitors are also a valid and useful benchmark for features, performance and keeping the postgresql community on its collective toes. This is interesting, a mission statement isn't necessarily about what is but about what we want to do, what it is that we intend to do, i.e. our mission. It is vital that a mission statement contain the superlatives. Mediocrity has no place here. I don't know about you, but I want PostgreSQL to be the best, be THE most reliable. Omitting best or most from the statement means that we should all just give up now, because PostgreSQL is pretty damn good already. i think a mission statement full of boastfulness is just a sound bite, and will be dismissed as such. if you want the mission statement to have an impact, then it needs to be acceptable not only to those who fully embrace it, but also acceptable to those who will respect the project from a distance. otherwise its not a mission statement, its akin to a corporate cheer. ( i'm picturing Steve Balmer's superlative exhaltations to the converted http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html ) -- [ Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 416 410-5633 ] [ I want to live forever, or die trying.] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 01:43:39PM +0100, Nigel J. Andrews wrote: I like: We'll store your data; if we think it'll be an interesting enough diversion for us. gets my vote. 8^) -- [ Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 416 410-5633 ] [ I want to live forever, or die trying.] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
I don't know about you, but I want PostgreSQL to be the best, be THE most reliable. Omitting best or most from the statement means that we should all just give up now, because PostgreSQL is pretty damn good already. i think a mission statement full of boastfulness is just a sound bite, and will be dismissed as such. Theres no reason Postgresql can't be the best in a good majority if not all of the fields. Yeah, a few things are needed to accomplish this -- but theres no reason it can't happen. Anyway, most companies do something like 'Postgresql will become the choice database'. That is, majority market share. That said, they're dumb. They need to be changed once you meet the goal. A good mission statement should last the lifetime of the company / department / project. WalMart actually has one of the better ones, where their mission is to beat last years sales by x%. 3M will innovate. HP would not release a product unless it offered the market something new or better (they don't [ didn't for years anyway ] clone others stuff and undercut them in price). Perhaps Postgresql should have the mission of handling twice the amount of data this year than last. That is, all collective installations will maintain more stuff. Difficult to measure, but would ensure we create / maintain the features required by big and small databases. Currently those features appear to be relational design, reliability, etc. Should the data storage requirements change, Postgresql would have to follow in order to maintain it's mission statement which is a good thing. Goals should change, (being most reliable, or ANSI compliant) but purpose should be consistent. That said, skip the whole thing. I don't think we need something to rally behind as it's kinda self explanatory why you'd donate time or money to the project. It needs to meet your needs first, which averaged out between all of the developers will meet those of most others. DBs work that way, desktops often don't ;) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Nigel J. Andrews wrote: Is this an indication of a need for [EMAIL PROTECTED]? :) already exists as pgsql-advocacy :) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free(dom) and open source software world wide. I hope you don't mind writing free(dom) with the idea of fighting patent abuses. Cheers, Jean-Michel ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thursday 02 May 2002 08:56 am, Jim Mercer wrote: i think a mission statement full of boastfulness is just a sound bite, and will be dismissed as such. if you want the mission statement to have an impact, then it needs to be acceptable not only to those who fully embrace it, but also acceptable to those who will respect the project from a distance. otherwise its not a mission statement, its akin to a corporate cheer. ( i'm picturing Steve Balmer's superlative exhaltations to the converted http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html ) In the corporate world a mission statement is often the 'sound bite' and a 'corporate cheer'. I personally think To have fun making and improving the most extensible, robust, ACID-compliant Free database system on the planet wraps up at least why I think we're all here. s/Free/Open Source/g if you'd rather not invoke a stallmanism. Or even s/Free/BSD-licensed/g if you want to really state the obvious. :-) If other projects' members are insulted by that, then they're just too sensitive. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, 2 May 2002, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:15:15AM -0400, mlw wrote: Jean-Michel POURE wrote: Le Jeudi 2 Mai 2002 01:59, David Terrell a écrit : Provide a really good database and have fun doing it PostgreSQL Community is commited to providing Humanity with the best multi-purpose, reliable, open-source and free database system. The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software world wide. Who's that? Anyone disagree? why does it have to be THE BEST ? that is insulting to the other projects like MySQL which while competitors are also a valid and useful benchmark for features, performance and keeping the postgresql community on its collective toes. This is interesting, a mission statement isn't necessarily about what is but about what we want to do, what it is that we intend to do, i.e. our mission. It is vital that a mission statement contain the superlatives. Mediocrity has no place here. I don't know about you, but I want PostgreSQL to be the best, be THE most reliable. Omitting best or most from the statement means that we should all just give up now, because PostgreSQL is pretty damn good already. altho in most contexts, I would agree with Jim as to the use of 'The Best', for any mission statement to say anything other then that, IMHO, shows a lack of commitment ... I agree with mlw on this one, the mission statement is what we are *striving* for ... where we eventually want to get to ... if we aren't The Best, then there is someone better then us that we have to work that much harder to become better then ... I personally like mlw's wording ... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Jean-Michel POURE wrote: The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining the best, most reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free(dom) and open source software world wide. I hope you don't mind writing free(dom) with the idea of fighting patent abuses. No, the mission statement is about what the postgresql group, as a whole, is all about. I know it seems silly to have such a thing, but really, the more I read on this discussion, the more it seems like it is a useful call to arms for developers and users alike. Now, I do not wish to have a manifesto, but a short and sweet this is who we are, and this is what we do could be a positive thing. P.S. I think every software engineer worth anything should fight software patents. If Donald Knuth didn't patent his algorithms, practically none of us deserve patents. I mean seriously, most of the software patents are trivial and obvious. Knuth did something, most of us only build on his work. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On 2 May 2002, Jason Earl wrote: Scott Marlowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, 1 May 2002, David Terrell wrote: On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 02:24:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? If so, where could I find it? If not, does anyone see a need? Provide a really good database and have fun doing it Motto: The best damned database money can't buy I don't think that any of the PostgreSQL developers would want, in any way shape or form, to suggest that you can't pay money for PostgreSQL. Nor are they likely to limit themselves to competing with free (libre/gratis) databases. True, but my point wasn't that you could pay for it, but that it couldn't be bought like so many other things (think politicians, OEMs, judges, etc...) But I was pretty much just foolin' around. :-) So how about: Postgresql: Open Source, Open Standards, Open Development, Open Minds ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On 2 May 2002, Hannu Krosing wrote: On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 14:37, Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:15:15AM -0400, mlw wrote: Who's that? Anyone disagree? why does it have to be THE BEST ? that is insulting to the other projects like MySQL which while competitors are also a valid and useful benchmark for features, performance and keeping the postgresql community on its collective toes. postgresql is not THE BEST in all applications, so calling it that is inviting derision and pointless arguments. The Politically Correct mission statement follows: The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining a good but not the best, mostly reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards Okay, so there now has to be someone always better then us, since we don't want to be the best? *confused look* BTW, I think PostgreSQL does _not_ need any mission statement. Nope, it doesn't ... never did before, don't know why it does suddenly ... do any other open source projects have one? Its kinda fun to see what ppl banter around, but I can't see it being useful to adopt any single one, considering I can't see *everyone* agreeing with it ... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
[ please try not to take this too seriously ] On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 01:11:41PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: altho in most contexts, I would agree with Jim as to the use of 'The Best', for any mission statement to say anything other then that, IMHO, shows a lack of commitment ... I agree with mlw on this one, the mission statement is what we are *striving* for ... where we eventually want to get to ... if we aren't The Best, then there is someone better then us that we have to work that much harder to become better then ... that's right, we have to work harder to STOMP OUT ALL COMPETITION! in fact, we should stop giving free access to the source, as our competitors might use the code to make their product better than ours. if we aren't THE BEST, then all those stock options are worthless! we could increase our chances of being the best by infiltrating the CVS tree of MySQL and the other projects stealing our thunder and injecting bugs into their code. i mean, if we want to be THE BEST, why should we stop at mere rhetoric? to be THE BEST, you need to dominate, good quality design and code are not the complete recipe for being THE BEST. THE BEST implies that no-one else compares, and we can completely demoralize the competition, thereby eliminating the competition. in all seriousness, i think that this attitude of being THE BEST goes against the philosophy of Open Source. if your source is open and available for modification/improvement/localization, then there will always be a chance for someone to run with it and make improvements. what is THE BEST Unix-based system? Linux? Debian? RedHat? FreeBSD? NetBSD? OpenBSD? Solaris? Minix? Qnix? if any of them claimed to be THE BEST Unix, we'd all laugh. none of them are THE BEST, but all of them strive to be as good as they can make them, and all of them borrow from each other in order to make their version better in the eyes of their audience. -- [ Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 416 410-5633 ] [ I want to live forever, or die trying.] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Marc G. Fournier wrote: BTW, I think PostgreSQL does _not_ need any mission statement. Nope, it doesn't ... never did before, don't know why it does suddenly ... do any other open source projects have one? Its kinda fun to see what ppl banter around, but I can't see it being useful to adopt any single one, considering I can't see *everyone* agreeing with it ... We as developers do not need mission statements, per se' but it is often useful as something to point to. I am writing a business plan for my company and I was looking for PostgreSQL's mission statement. Of course I did not see one. It is very interesting seeing what people are coming up with. IMHO, if we can come up with a strong, positive statement, it would help MBA trained CIOs and CTOs choose PostgreSQL. To them, it will show a professional minded development group, it will be recognizable to them. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Wed, 1 May 2002, David Terrell wrote: On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 02:24:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? If so, where could I find it? If not, does anyone see a need? Provide a really good database and have fun doing it Motto: The best damned database money can't buy :-) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
mlw wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: BTW, I think PostgreSQL does _not_ need any mission statement. Nope, it doesn't ... never did before, don't know why it does suddenly ... do any other open source projects have one? Its kinda fun to see what ppl banter around, but I can't see it being useful to adopt any single one, considering I can't see *everyone* agreeing with it ... We as developers do not need mission statements, per se' but it is often useful as something to point to. Yupp. As PostgreSQL developers we are simply committed to make commit what others need to commit to PostgreSQL. If we ever define something like a mission statement, it should be named The 10 commitments anyway, no? Jan -- #==# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #== [EMAIL PROTECTED] # ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On 2 May 2002, Hannu Krosing wrote: The Politically Correct mission statement follows: The PostgreSQL community is committed to creating and maintaining a good but not the best, mostly reliable, open-source multi-purpose standards based database, and with it, promote free and open source software and other worthy causes world wide and to not hurting anyones feelings in doing so. We are also committed to not cheating our SOs, not charging too much for our services nor eating too much and to recommending products of our commercial competitors before ours in order to help them fullfil their obligations to their stockholders. As a practicing polyamorist, I find the part about not cheating on our SOs highly offensive. :-) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
We as developers do not need mission statements, per se' but it is often useful as something to point to. It's comforting and useful to point to; in addition, developers work on something because of personal itches (to coin a phrase) that happen to broadly overlap with the group IMHO, if we can come up with a strong, positive statement, it would help MBA trained CIOs and CTOs choose PostgreSQL. To them, it will show a professional minded development group, it will be recognizable to them. I think this is an excellent point, especially since I'd say that one of the implicit goals of the PG project is for the database to be *used* ;) - and the corporate world in some form or another represents probably the largest user base. This reasoning is a bit dicey b/c playing PR games really isn't fun after the initial rush, and I don't think anyone really wants catering to the corporate world to be first and foremost in their minds. To this end, if a mission statement is adopted, it should probably be a very dynamic document that remains capable of both engaging CIOs/CTOs and intriguing developers as the vision and the landscape change. A mission statement that is agonized over (and takes time away from development), finally adopted, and then allowed to become obsolete does PG no good. Should you guys hold a vote to see who wants a mission statement (and who wants to write one or compile all the suggestions here into a nice form) and then work from there? I'm not exactly familiar with the procedures here. thanks for listening to my rambling, Michael Locasto ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Scott Marlowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, 1 May 2002, David Terrell wrote: On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 02:24:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? If so, where could I find it? If not, does anyone see a need? Provide a really good database and have fun doing it Motto: The best damned database money can't buy I don't think that any of the PostgreSQL developers would want, in any way shape or form, to suggest that you can't pay money for PostgreSQL. Nor are they likely to limit themselves to competing with free (libre/gratis) databases. Some of them might even object to the use of the word damn :). Jason ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 04:25, mlw wrote: IMHO, if we can come up with a strong, positive statement, it would help MBA trained CIOs and CTOs choose PostgreSQL. To them, it will show a professional minded development group, it will be recognizable to them. I am not so sure about that - In my experience the things that those guys use to decide on products are : 1) reference sites 2) official support (and they like to pay for a product 'cause they are used to doing it...but lets not go there...) Personally I find the lack of business-speak things (like mission statements) refeshing, and I see it as part of the values that differentiate open source / community based products from commercial ones. just my NZ4c (=US2c) Mark ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Mission Statement: To KICK Gluteus Maximus! ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Mark kirkwood wrote: On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 04:25, mlw wrote: IMHO, if we can come up with a strong, positive statement, it would help MBA trained CIOs and CTOs choose PostgreSQL. To them, it will show a professional minded development group, it will be recognizable to them. I am not so sure about that - In my experience the things that those guys use to decide on products are : 1) reference sites 2) official support (and they like to pay for a product 'cause they are used to doing it...but lets not go there...) Personally I find the lack of business-speak things (like mission statements) refeshing, and I see it as part of the values that differentiate open source / community based products from commercial ones. A mission statement is like a tie. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:41:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: A mission statement is like a tie. straw vote! who on the list wears ties? -- [ Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 416 410-5633 ] [ I want to live forever, or die trying.] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Lol This gets my vote ;-) Dali -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dann Corbit Sent: Friday, 3 May 2002 14:33 To: PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement? Mission Statement: To KICK Gluteus Maximus! ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:41:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: A mission statement is like a tie. straw vote! who on the list wears ties? How many people who make IT decisions wear ties? ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:14:03PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:41:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: A mission statement is like a tie. straw vote! who on the list wears ties? How many people who make IT decisions wear ties? too many. -- [ Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 416 410-5633 ] [ I want to live forever, or die trying.] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:14:03PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:41:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: A mission statement is like a tie. straw vote! who on the list wears ties? How many people who make IT decisions wear ties? too many. I'm sorry I started this thread. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:45:45PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:14:03PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:41:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: A mission statement is like a tie. who on the list wears ties? How many people who make IT decisions wear ties? too many. I'm sorry I started this thread. don't be sorry. i'm not big on wearing the corporate suit, be it physically, or figuratively. that's my opinion, and i'm stating it. your opinion differs, and that's fine. i've had to do the corporate mission statement dance, as well as a bunch of other hokey crap that didn't matter squat to the bottom line due to the fact that the execs read some magazine article or attended some Tony Robbins -esque motivational session. when i hear mission statement and quality circle and internal customer, i cringe. if the corporate management doesn't want to buy into the Open Source concept, fuck 'em. i've had a number of installations where due to management panic to get something working, it was implemented using Open Source. Only to have a perfectly good system replaced with real software when management finds out 6 months later that it is using Open Source. i have had successes in getting Open Source into corporate environments, but only after battling mega-politics with CIO/CFO and MSCE IT managers who only want to see Microsoft or Sun Solaris solutions. we did a project using FreeBSD and Samba to replace a number of highly unstable NT file/print servers. recently, some consultants (friends of the managing partners) said that it was a bad idea to use Public Domain software that was full of bugs and highly insecure. when we pointed out that the servers hadn't rebooted in 160 days, and that they were protected by both RFC1918 addressing and a firewall, the consultants backed off a bit. then they returned spouting the same full of bugs and highly insecure crap. now management is going to have them re-implement the network using the latest NT stuff. this is a long winded way of saying that my feeling is the type of MBA CFO/CIO that is impressed by a mission statement, is probably not going to buy into technology that isn't listed on NASDAQ. so, what's the harm in having one? probably not much, but to me it smells of corporate bullshit. -- [ Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 416 410-5633 ] [ I want to live forever, or die trying.] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:45:45PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:14:03PM -0400, mlw wrote: Jim Mercer wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:41:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: A mission statement is like a tie. who on the list wears ties? How many people who make IT decisions wear ties? too many. I'm sorry I started this thread. don't be sorry. i'm not big on wearing the corporate suit, be it physically, or figuratively. Trust me, nor am I. I haven't warn a suit professionally since the '80s. that's my opinion, and i'm stating it. your opinion differs, and that's fine. Don't be so sure. i've had to do the corporate mission statement dance, as well as a bunch of other hokey crap that didn't matter squat to the bottom line due to the fact that the execs read some magazine article or attended some Tony Robbins -esque motivational session. Yes I know. Been there done that. when i hear mission statement and quality circle and internal customer, i cringe. Ditto. if the corporate management doesn't want to buy into the Open Source concept, fuck 'em. He is where we differ. There is merit in displaying an amount of understanding of the corporate personality. I am not a corporate type, but I understand that there are people that are, and to promote PostgreSQL, we need to reach them. It is not selling out to use chopsticks at a chinese dinner, it is following custom. A mission statement is similar. These people are brainwashed to look at the mission statement. Having one for them to look at is not a bad idea. i've had a number of installations where due to management panic to get something working, it was implemented using Open Source. Only to have a perfectly good system replaced with real software when management finds out 6 months later that it is using Open Source. Presenting a corporate aware culture will help them. i have had successes in getting Open Source into corporate environments, but only after battling mega-politics with CIO/CFO and MSCE IT managers who only want to see Microsoft or Sun Solaris solutions. Been there done that. we did a project using FreeBSD and Samba to replace a number of highly unstable NT file/print servers. Again, been there, done that. recently, some consultants (friends of the managing partners) said that it was a bad idea to use Public Domain software that was full of bugs and highly insecure. Pure FUD, of course. when we pointed out that the servers hadn't rebooted in 160 days, and that they were protected by both RFC1918 addressing and a firewall, the consultants backed off a bit. Most consultants (not me :-) are idiots. then they returned spouting the same full of bugs and highly insecure crap. They are uninformed, or worse, believe what Microsoft says. now management is going to have them re-implement the network using the latest NT stuff. Fight it! Is there any evidence that will help you? this is a long winded way of saying that my feeling is the type of MBA CFO/CIO that is impressed by a mission statement, is probably not going to buy into technology that isn't listed on NASDAQ. That is where the fight lies!! We have to make believers out of them! We have superior technology, we have superior quality. Microsoft and Oracle have billions of dollars in marketing, all we have is ourselves. so, what's the harm in having one? probably not much, but to me it smells of corporate bullshit. Corporate bullshit or not, it is a fact of life and a custom that we open source people need to accept. We write the best shit, we do the best work. We are more professional and dedicated than most professionals. Our quality is usually much better than proprietary our counterparts. Unfortunately business types do not understand us. If we are unable to reach the people who would decide to use our stuff, then it is our fault for failure. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
mlw [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? Nope. Given the wide variety of views among the developer community, I think we'd have a tough time agreeing on a mission statement, unless it was so generic as to be meaningless ... regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
mlw [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? Nope. Given the wide variety of views among the developer community, I think we'd have a tough time agreeing on a mission statement, unless it was so generic as to be meaningless ... Well, I think one of the things that has been agreed on that _isn't_ that generic is: We use a Berkeley style license, and prefer it that way. :-) -- (concatenate 'string cbbrowne @ntlug.org) http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/rdbms.html To err is human, to moo bovine. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 02:24:30PM -0400, mlw wrote: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? If so, where could I find it? If not, does anyone see a need? Provide a really good database and have fun doing it -- David Terrell | War is peace, Prime Minister, Nebcorp | freedom is slavery, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ignorance is strength http://wwn.nebcorp.com/ | Dishes are clean. - Chris Fester ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mlw [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? Nope. Given the wide variety of views among the developer community, I think we'd have a tough time agreeing on a mission statement, unless it was so generic as to be meaningless ... Well, I think one of the things that has been agreed on that _isn't_ that generic is: We use a Berkeley style license, and prefer it that way. Does that now count as a mission? Whow, didn't know that I am on a mission! What in our mission is mission critical? What are our defined mission goals? Jan :-) :-) -- (concatenate 'string cbbrowne @ntlug.org) http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/rdbms.html To err is human, to moo bovine. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org -- #==# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #== [EMAIL PROTECTED] # ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL mission statement?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mlw [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just out of curiosity, does PostgreSQL have a mission statement? Nope. Given the wide variety of views among the developer community, I think we'd have a tough time agreeing on a mission statement, unless it was so generic as to be meaningless ... Well, I think one of the things that has been agreed on that _isn't_ that generic is: We use a Berkeley style license, and prefer it that way. No! no! no! Don't even kid like that. EVERY time that debate is even mentioned, it goes on for days. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
