Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
Hi Greg 2011/12/13 Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com: On 12/11/2011 05:29 PM, Torello Querci wrote: I will try to adjust the patch and submit for the next Commit Fest if this is ok for you. I don't think we'll need this, it will take a bit to explain why though. First, thanks for returning this topic to discussion and keeping up with all the controversy around it. You said back in February this was your first post here, and I doubt you expected that 10 months later this would still be active and argued over. The fact that you're still here and everyone knows your name now is itself an accomplishment, many people just give up on their submission ideas under far less negative feedback. Why. I need one feature, can spend some time to try to get it and I try. This is only way to lean that I know. I just took a long look at all three of the submissions in this area we've gotten. The central idea that made yours different was making the database owner the person allowed to cancel things. That hadn't been suggested as a cancellation requisite before that I know of, and this code may wander in that direction one day. It's just a bit too much to accept right now. You seem to need that specific feature for your environment. If that's the case, you might want to develop something that works that way, but handles the concerns raised here. The fact that it's not acceptable for a database owner to cancel a superuser query is the biggest objection, there were some others too. Ultimately it may take a reworking of database permissions to really make this acceptable, which is a larger job than I think you were trying to get involved with. Probably you have right :( Unfortunately, when I look at the new spec we have now, I don't see anything from what you did that we can re-use. It's too specific to the owner-oriented idea. The two other patches that have been submitted both are closer to what we've decided we want now. What I'm going to do here is mark your submission returned with feedback. Again no problem. The only thing that I need (not only me obviusly) is give the permission to one or more users to kill session and query owned by other users. Have a kind of ACL where is specify who can kill and which is the right way. My problem is related to production environment where an application server access the database server and I am the database owner, not the DBA. So I need to kill the application server sessions (again I not the root of application server so I not able to stop and restart it). I hope to explain my scenario if not before. Rather than wait for something new from you, I'm going to review and rework the other two submissions. That I can start on right now. It's taken so long to reach this point that I don't want to wait much longer for another submission here, certainly not until over a month from now when the next CF starts. We need to get the arguments around a new version started earlier than that. Thanks for offering to work on this more, and I hope there's been something about this long wandering discussion that's been helpful to you. As I said, you did at least make a good first impression, and that is worth something when it comes to this group. Thanks Greg. I hope to meet you at Fosdem if you wil go there. Best Regards, Torello -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On 12/11/2011 05:29 PM, Torello Querci wrote: I will try to adjust the patch and submit for the next Commit Fest if this is ok for you. I don't think we'll need this, it will take a bit to explain why though. First, thanks for returning this topic to discussion and keeping up with all the controversy around it. You said back in February this was your first post here, and I doubt you expected that 10 months later this would still be active and argued over. The fact that you're still here and everyone knows your name now is itself an accomplishment, many people just give up on their submission ideas under far less negative feedback. I just took a long look at all three of the submissions in this area we've gotten. The central idea that made yours different was making the database owner the person allowed to cancel things. That hadn't been suggested as a cancellation requisite before that I know of, and this code may wander in that direction one day. It's just a bit too much to accept right now. You seem to need that specific feature for your environment. If that's the case, you might want to develop something that works that way, but handles the concerns raised here. The fact that it's not acceptable for a database owner to cancel a superuser query is the biggest objection, there were some others too. Ultimately it may take a reworking of database permissions to really make this acceptable, which is a larger job than I think you were trying to get involved with. Unfortunately, when I look at the new spec we have now, I don't see anything from what you did that we can re-use. It's too specific to the owner-oriented idea. The two other patches that have been submitted both are closer to what we've decided we want now. What I'm going to do here is mark your submission returned with feedback. Rather than wait for something new from you, I'm going to review and rework the other two submissions. That I can start on right now. It's taken so long to reach this point that I don't want to wait much longer for another submission here, certainly not until over a month from now when the next CF starts. We need to get the arguments around a new version started earlier than that. Thanks for offering to work on this more, and I hope there's been something about this long wandering discussion that's been helpful to you. As I said, you did at least make a good first impression, and that is worth something when it comes to this group. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
2011/12/6 Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net: On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 23:32, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: Noah Misch n...@leadboat.com writes: On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 06:55:51AM -0400, Robert Haas wrote: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira eu...@timbira.com wrote: I see. What about passing this decision to DBA? I mean a GUC can_cancel_session = user, dbowner (default is '' -- only superuser). You can select one or both options. This GUC can only be changed by superuser. Or how about making it a grantable database-level privilege? I think either is overkill. You can implement any policy by interposing a SECURITY DEFINER wrapper around pg_cancel_backend(). I'm with Noah on this. If allowing same-user cancels is enough to solve 95% or 99% of the real-world use cases, let's just do that. There's no very good reason to suppose that a GUC or some more ad-hoc privileges will solve a large enough fraction of the rest of the cases to be worth their maintenance effort. In particular, I think both of the above proposals assume way too much about the DBA's specific administrative requirements. +1. Torello, are you up for updating your patch to do this, for now? If not, I'll be happy to create an updated patch that does just this, but since you got started on it... Sorry for the long delay. I will try to adjust the patch and submit for the next Commit Fest if this is ok for you. -- Magnus Hagander Me: http://www.hagander.net/ Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On 10/02/2011 05:32 PM, Tom Lane wrote: I'm with Noah on this. If allowing same-user cancels is enough to solve 95% or 99% of the real-world use cases, let's just do that. And we're back full circle. This is basically where Josh Kuperschmidt started in early 2010: http://archives.postgresql.org/message-id/4ec1cf761002051455i6e702999y7cf4699b4eb48...@mail.gmail.com Then Torello's patch initially more ambitious patch got pruned down to the same sort of feature set. Next, the day after the November CommitFest started (so it got kind of lost), Edward Muller took a shot at coding exactly this too, which he tells me happened without even knowing the other two were already floating around: http://archives.postgresql.org/message-id/cabm0hdx+xuc3dsncnb2z2mertw3crcc5kjmvh6kwhb7jnix...@mail.gmail.com The picture of what people really want here is pretty clear now, after different people wanted same-user cancels (or more) badly enough to submit a patch adding it, in three cases now. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 23:32, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: Noah Misch n...@leadboat.com writes: On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 06:55:51AM -0400, Robert Haas wrote: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira eu...@timbira.com wrote: I see. What about passing this decision to DBA? I mean a GUC can_cancel_session = user, dbowner (default is '' -- only superuser). You can select one or both options. This GUC can only be changed by superuser. Or how about making it a grantable database-level privilege? I think either is overkill. You can implement any policy by interposing a SECURITY DEFINER wrapper around pg_cancel_backend(). I'm with Noah on this. If allowing same-user cancels is enough to solve 95% or 99% of the real-world use cases, let's just do that. There's no very good reason to suppose that a GUC or some more ad-hoc privileges will solve a large enough fraction of the rest of the cases to be worth their maintenance effort. In particular, I think both of the above proposals assume way too much about the DBA's specific administrative requirements. +1. Torello, are you up for updating your patch to do this, for now? If not, I'll be happy to create an updated patch that does just this, but since you got started on it... -- Magnus Hagander Me: http://www.hagander.net/ Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira eu...@timbira.com wrote: On 01-10-2011 17:44, Daniel Farina wrote: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Tom Lanet...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. In *every* case -- and there are many -- where we've had people express pain, this would have sufficed. I see. What about passing this decision to DBA? I mean a GUC can_cancel_session = user, dbowner (default is '' -- only superuser). You can select one or both options. This GUC can only be changed by superuser. Or how about making it a grantable database-level privilege? -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
I like this idea +1 Il giorno 02/ott/2011 12:56, Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com ha scritto: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira eu...@timbira.com wrote: On 01-10-2011 17:44, Daniel Farina wrote: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Tom Lanet...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. In *every* case -- and there are many -- where we've had people express pain, this would have sufficed. I see. What about passing this decision to DBA? I mean a GUC can_cancel_session = user, dbowner (default is '' -- only superuser). You can select one or both options. This GUC can only be changed by superuser. Or how about making it a grantable database-level privilege? -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 06:55:51AM -0400, Robert Haas wrote: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira eu...@timbira.com wrote: On 01-10-2011 17:44, Daniel Farina wrote: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Tom Lanet...@sss.pgh.pa.us ?wrote: ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. In *every* case -- and there are many -- where we've had people express pain, this would have sufficed. +1 for allowing that unconditionally. I see. What about passing this decision to DBA? I mean a GUC can_cancel_session = user, dbowner (default is '' -- only superuser). You can select one or both options. This GUC can only be changed by superuser. Or how about making it a grantable database-level privilege? I think either is overkill. You can implement any policy by interposing a SECURITY DEFINER wrapper around pg_cancel_backend(). nm -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
Noah Misch n...@leadboat.com writes: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Tom Lanet...@sss.pgh.pa.us ?wrote: ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. In *every* case -- and there are many -- where we've had people express pain, this would have sufficed. +1 for allowing that unconditionally. +1 Or how about making it a grantable database-level privilege? I think either is overkill. You can implement any policy by interposing a SECURITY DEFINER wrapper around pg_cancel_backend(). I still like the idea of grant cancel and grant terminate. For another patch. Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
Noah Misch n...@leadboat.com writes: On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 06:55:51AM -0400, Robert Haas wrote: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira eu...@timbira.com wrote: I see. What about passing this decision to DBA? I mean a GUC can_cancel_session = user, dbowner (default is '' -- only superuser). You can select one or both options. This GUC can only be changed by superuser. Or how about making it a grantable database-level privilege? I think either is overkill. You can implement any policy by interposing a SECURITY DEFINER wrapper around pg_cancel_backend(). I'm with Noah on this. If allowing same-user cancels is enough to solve 95% or 99% of the real-world use cases, let's just do that. There's no very good reason to suppose that a GUC or some more ad-hoc privileges will solve a large enough fraction of the rest of the cases to be worth their maintenance effort. In particular, I think both of the above proposals assume way too much about the DBA's specific administrative requirements. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. In *every* case -- and there are many -- where we've had people express pain, this would have sufficed. Usually the problem is a large index creation gone awry, or an automated backup process blocking a schema change that has taken half the locks it needs, or something like that -- all by the same role that is under control of the folks feeling distress. If this minimal set is uncontroversial, I would like to see that much committed and then spend some time hand-wringing on whether to extend it. If one does want to extend it, I think role inheritance makes the most sense: a child role should be able to cancel its parent role's queries, and not vice-versa. Since one can use SET ROLE in this case anyway to basically act on behalf on that role, I think that, too, should be uncontroversial. -- fdr -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Kääriäinen Anssi anssi.kaariai...@thl.fi wrote: I would be a step in the right direction if the DB owner would see all queries to the DB in pg_stat_activity. All, including that of the superuser? I'd like to pass on that one, please. In general, I feel there is this problem that one cannot hand over a non-superuser but powerful role to someone else, and allowing them to make new roles with strictly less power than what they were granted (the opposite of role inheritance, whereby children have as much or more power). Right now I get the feeling that I'd rather fix that problem in the role system then overloading what it means to be a database owner. If anything, to me being a database owner means the ability to run ALTER DATABASE, and not much else. -- fdr -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
In *every* case -- and there are many -- where we've had people express pain, this would have sufficed. Usually the problem is a large index creation gone awry, or an automated backup process blocking a schema change that has taken half the locks it needs, or something like that -- all by the same role that is under control of the folks feeling distress. If this minimal set is uncontroversial, I would like to see that much committed and then spend some time hand-wringing on whether to extend it. If one does want to extend it, I think role inheritance makes the most sense: a child role should be able to cancel its parent role's queries, and not vice-versa. Since one can use SET ROLE in this case anyway to basically act on behalf on that role, I think that, too, should be uncontroversial. I would be a step in the right direction if the DB owner would see all queries to the DB in pg_stat_activity. - Anssi -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
On 01-10-2011 17:44, Daniel Farina wrote: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Tom Lanet...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. In *every* case -- and there are many -- where we've had people express pain, this would have sufficed. I see. What about passing this decision to DBA? I mean a GUC can_cancel_session = user, dbowner (default is '' -- only superuser). You can select one or both options. This GUC can only be changed by superuser. -- Euler Taveira de Oliveira - Timbira http://www.timbira.com.br/ PostgreSQL: Consultoria, Desenvolvimento, Suporte 24x7 e Treinamento -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
This patch would appear(?) to have languished: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/patch_view?id=541 I'd really like to see it included. In the last comments of the review, there seem to be problems in *terminate* backend, but even just pg_cancel_backend as non-superuser would be just a huge improvement. What are the things blocking non-superuser pg_cancel_backend from being accepted? -- fdr -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
Daniel Farina dan...@heroku.com writes: This patch would appear(?) to have languished: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/patch_view?id=541 I'd really like to see it included. In the last comments of the review, there seem to be problems in *terminate* backend, but even just pg_cancel_backend as non-superuser would be just a huge improvement. What are the things blocking non-superuser pg_cancel_backend from being accepted? I think the reason the patch stalled is that we have not got consensus on how far to extend the conditions under which these operations should be allowed. For instance, in the last comment attached to that commitfest entry, Noah alleges that a non-superuser database owner should be allowed to kill a superuser's session, if it's connected to his database. My reaction to that is somewhere between no and hell no; IMO superusers can mess up non-superusers, never vice versa. If I recall the discussion correctly, there were other points of contention too. I don't think we need more coding right now ... we need somebody to write a spec that everyone can agree to. ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] pg_cancel_backend by non-superuser
2011/10/1 Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us: Daniel Farina dan...@heroku.com writes: This patch would appear(?) to have languished: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/patch_view?id=541 I'd really like to see it included. In the last comments of the review, there seem to be problems in *terminate* backend, but even just pg_cancel_backend as non-superuser would be just a huge improvement. What are the things blocking non-superuser pg_cancel_backend from being accepted? I think the reason the patch stalled is that we have not got consensus on how far to extend the conditions under which these operations should be allowed. For instance, in the last comment attached to that commitfest entry, Noah alleges that a non-superuser database owner should be allowed to kill a superuser's session, if it's connected to his database. My reaction to that is somewhere between no and hell no; IMO superusers can mess up non-superusers, never vice versa. If I recall the discussion correctly, there were other points of contention too. Hi, the original patch allow only for the DB Owner to kill sessions owner by other users. This because in real world I have some production database where I'm not the DBA, but only the DB owner. I think that is not a good idea that a normal users is able to kill session from the same user because, unfortunally, in some real environment there are a lots of application that need to access to the same database and the same user is used. I know that is not a good practise but it is on the field For this reason I suppose that allow only to DB onwer to kill other sessions it is a good compromize between functionality and security, but is my personal opinion ... I don't think we need more coding right now ... we need somebody to write a spec that everyone can agree to. ISTM it would be reasonably non-controversial to allow users to issue pg_cancel_backend against other sessions logged in as the same userID. The question is whether to go further than that, and if so how much. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
