Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Here's a shot at a more radical revision, to try to address concerns raised over my failure in the previous (very minimal) suggested patch to address PostgreSQL behavior close to where the spec's behavior is described, and my dragging in of language directly from the spec in a confusing context. I'd appreciate any corrections or suggestions before I massage it into sgml. Also, I don't know if I should leave it with the one example or whether there should be more. I could leave in the old example, although the popular example of reversing updates (one transaction updates all card rows to 'face-up' where they are 'face-down' and vice versa) seems easier to understand. One or both of these? Other suggestions? Also, I tried using SELECT FOR SHARE and SELECT FOR HOLD as the complete solution or instead of one of the table locks, but was able to generate anomalies in all such cases. If someone has a less extreme technique for blocking the anomalies in the receipt example (even when the SELECT of the deposit date for a receipt is in a separate statement earlier in the transaction), please let me know, so that I can include it. If time permits I might take a stab at expanding the section on data consistency checks at the application level; however, that seems less urgent than correcting the obsolescent discussions of the SQL standard and describing some of the anomalies not covered by a discussion of consistency checks. Thanks, -Kevin 13.2. Transaction Isolation The SQL standard defines four levels of transaction isolation in terms of three phenomena that must be prevented between concurrent transactions, with additional constraints on Serializable transactions. These undesirable phenomena are: dirty read A transaction reads data written by a concurrent uncommitted transaction. nonrepeatable read A transaction re-reads data it has previously read and finds that data has been modified by another transaction (that committed since the initial read). phantom read A transaction re-executes a query returning a set of rows that satisfy a search condition and finds that the set of rows satisfying the condition has changed due to another recently-committed transaction. The four transaction isolation levels and the corresponding behaviors are described in Table 13-1. Table 13-1. SQL Transaction Isolation Levels table here The standard also requires that serializable transactions behave as though they were run one at a time, even though their execution may actually overlap. Since the phenomena described above relate to the visibility of the effects of concurrent transactions, and each serializable transaction must behave as though it were run in its entirety either before or after every other transaction, none of the above phenomena can occur within a serializable transaction. In practice there is another popular transaction isolation level, not mentioned in the standard, generally known as Snapshot isolation level. A transaction executed at this transaction isolation level sees a consistent view of the data; changes made by other transactions are not visible to it. Because of this, none of the phenomena described above are possible. Additionally, when concurrent transactions running at this level attempt to modify the same data, the update conflict causes causes transaction rollback to prevent many forms of update anomalies. Still, data may be viewed or stored in a state which is not consistent with any serial execution of transactions run at this level, so although it is more strict than required for Repeatable Read, it does not meet the standard's definition of the Serializable transaction isolation level. In PostgreSQL you can request any of the four standard transaction isolation levels, but internally there are only two distinct isolation levels, which correspond to the levels Read Committed and Snapshot. When you select the level Read Uncommitted you really get Read Committed, and when you select Repeatable Read or Serializable you really get Snapshot. Since the standard does not provide for the Snapshot isolation level, PostgreSQL reports it as Serializable. The behavior of the available isolation levels is detailed in the following subsections. To set the transaction isolation level of a transaction, use the command SET TRANSACTION. or specify the desired transaction isolation level on a BEGIN TRANSACTION or START TRANSACTION statement. 13.2.1. Read Committed Isolation Level unchanged 13.2.2. Snapshot Isolation Level The Snapshot level (reported as Serializable) provides the strictest transaction isolation available in PostgreSQL. This level approximates serial transaction execution, as if transactions had been executed one after another, serially, rather than concurrently. However, applications using this level must be prepared to retry transactions due to serialization failures. When a transaction is on the this level, a SELECT query sees
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
I wrote: Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: Kevin Grittner wrote: is a natural consequence of the fact --- There is nothing natural about any of this. Why is it a consequence and how? How could you possibly get any of those phenomena if there are no concurrent transactions? I see what you mean now, but you could write out that logic in more detail. Those weren't my words; I was quoting the SQL spec. Last night I was reviewing my proposed patch from this thread, to try to address other expressed concerns, and noticed that I had used this language from the SQL spec in the patch. I see your point now. Without the same context as the spec, and when intended for a different audience, this language probably isn't the best. It now also occurs to me that the spec is a copyrighted work, and it probably isn't appropriate to copy a chunk that big into PostgreSQL docs. I'll write something in my own words to replace this. Thanks for the input, and sorry for misunderstanding. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Kevin Grittner wrote: is a natural consequence of the fact --- There is nothing natural about any of this. Why is it a consequence and how? How could you possibly get any of those phenomena if there are no concurrent transactions? I see what you mean now, but you could write out that logic in more detail. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: Kevin Grittner wrote: is a natural consequence of the fact --- There is nothing natural about any of this. Why is it a consequence and how? How could you possibly get any of those phenomena if there are no concurrent transactions? I see what you mean now, but you could write out that logic in more detail. Those weren't my words; I was quoting the SQL spec. It came about half a page after they had defined serializable transactions by saying that they must produce the same effect as if they had been run (in some order) one at a time. The spec then defined phenomena that can occur during the execution of concurrent SQL-transactions and gave a table of which phenomena could occur at which transaction isolation level. Immediately after the table was the note about natural consequence. Since these phenomena are defined in terms of the visibility of the effects of concurrent transactions, and serializable transactions must have the same effect as if they were run one at a time, a natural consequence is that none of the effects can occur. What gaps in the logic to you see? -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Paul Schlie sch...@comcast.net wrote: Sorry if I'm restating the obvious, however I don't understand the confusion, as it seems the standard's definition isn't mysterious; it simply requires that the resulting state from the concurrent execution of transactions (and implicitly any subset) designated to occur at the isolation level SERIALIZABLE be equivalent to SOME LITERALLY SERIAL execution of said transactions. I think that some of the confusion may result from changes in the standard. As far as I can recall, the language requiring that the SERIALIZABLE transaction isolation level be truly serializable was not in early versions of the standard, and it may be that there is some reluctance to concede that a shift in the standard has rendered PostgreSQL out of compliance on this point. As I see it, the discussion on this thread is around recognition of the requirements of the current standard within the PostgreSQL documentation. There is a related thread on which I'm attempting to come up with documentation to assist those familiar with true serializable behavior who are attempting to recognize application coding patterns where the differences between that and snapshot isolation are material, with tips on how to handle these differences. There seems to be some question whether the patterns in which anomalies occur are common enough to merit comment. If you could reference any concise and accessible work on these anomalies and practical workarounds in application code, it would be much appreciated. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov wrote: Paul Schlie sch...@comcast.net wrote: Sorry if I'm restating the obvious, however I don't understand the confusion, as it seems the standard's definition isn't mysterious; it simply requires that the resulting state from the concurrent execution of transactions (and implicitly any subset) designated to occur at the isolation level SERIALIZABLE be equivalent to SOME LITERALLY SERIAL execution of said transactions. I think that some of the confusion may result from changes in the standard. As far as I can recall, the language requiring that the SERIALIZABLE transaction isolation level be truly serializable was not in early versions of the standard, and it may be that there is some reluctance to concede that a shift in the standard has rendered PostgreSQL out of compliance on this point. As I see it, the discussion on this thread is around recognition of the requirements of the current standard within the PostgreSQL documentation. There is a related thread on which I'm attempting to come up with documentation to assist those familiar with true serializable behavior who are attempting to recognize application coding patterns where the differences between that and snapshot isolation are material, with tips on how to handle these differences. There seems to be some question whether the patterns in which anomalies occur are common enough to merit comment. If you could reference any concise and accessible work on these anomalies and practical workarounds in application code, it would be much appreciated. Personally; although compliance may reduce the execution performance of such so designated transactions, it will correspondingly warrant correct results, and should be the goal rather than documenting non-conformance; as those who wish to embed more direct control over transaction evaluation into their specification to enable their improved concurrent execution efficiency by utilizing more relaxed evaluation semantics, remain free to do without penalty. (Simple examples of the risk of non-compliance already seem sufficiently identified in your example and first reference cited). Merely documenting that transactions designated to be evaluated at the isolation level SERIALIZABLE may not yield expected results, as currently identified, seems sufficient in the short term; and as/if enough interest develops otherwise, so may an effort to warrant compliance; I suspect. (as that known to most often be fine, can't be relied upon in practice) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Paul Schlie sch...@comcast.net wrote: Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov wrote: There is a related thread on which I'm attempting to come up with documentation to assist those familiar with true serializable behavior who are attempting to recognize application coding patterns where the differences between that and snapshot isolation are material, with tips on how to handle these differences. There seems to be some question whether the patterns in which anomalies occur are common enough to merit comment. If you could reference any concise and accessible work on these anomalies and practical workarounds in application code, it would be much appreciated. Personally; although compliance may reduce the execution performance of such so designated transactions, it will correspondingly warrant correct results, and should be the goal rather than documenting non-conformance; as those who wish to embed more direct control over transaction evaluation into their specification to enable their improved concurrent execution efficiency by utilizing more relaxed evaluation semantics, remain free to do without penalty. (Simple examples of the risk of non-compliance already seem sufficiently identified in your example and first reference cited). Merely documenting that transactions designated to be evaluated at the isolation level SERIALIZABLE may not yield expected results, as currently identified, seems sufficient in the short term; and as/if enough interest develops otherwise, so may an effort to warrant compliance; I suspect. (as that known to most often be fine, can't be relied upon in practice) Thank you for your perspective. I'm not sure that I totally followed you, so let me restate to see if it sounds right to you. You are suggesting that minimal discussion of the problem, the initial example I provided, and more discussion of how to ensure correct semantics would be what is needed? Filling in more detail if interest is expressed by users? If so, the draft of a partial replacement for the partial replacement of text in Serializable Isolation versus True Serializability may be close to what you're suggesting -- if additional guidance on when to use what additional locks is provided. I'll paste below my signature for comment. It's a little rough yet, but looking to see if I'm on the right track. The first paragraph is a slightly modified form of a suggestion from Robert Haas in: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-12/msg01732.php -Kevin PostgreSQL's MVCC framework, snapshot isolation, and limited automatic row-level locking permit a greater degree of concurrency than some other databases; however, even when the transaction isolation level is set to serializable, serialization anomalies can occur in some situations. When it is important to prevent these anomalies, explicit row-level or table-level locking can be used at the expense of reduced concurrency. Since PostgreSQL protects a serializable transaction against changes in the view of the data, and uses locks to prevent modification of data which is being modified by a concurrent transaction, the anomalies can only occur when a transaction reads data which is modified by a concurrent transaction, and uses that as the basis of database modifications which are read by a concurrent transaction. Data consistency checks at the application level have a problem with this in general, and are addressed in section 13.4. Some examples of other types of anomalies follow, with suggestions on how to use explicit locking to prevent the anomalies where needed. Consider a system which involves recording receipts, each of which must go into a daily deposit. There is a control table with one row containing the current deposit date for receipts. Each transaction which is inserting a receipt selects the deposit date from the control table within its transaction, and uses it for the receipt's deposit date. Somewhere mid-afternoon the control table's date is updated, all subsequent receipts should fall into the new day, and a report is run listing the receipts for the day and giving the deposit total. If all transactions involved were truly serializable, any SELECT of receipts for a date prior to the deposit date of the control table would see the complete, final set of receipts. Under the PostgreSQL implementation, unless explicit locking is used, although data eventually gets to that state there can be a window of time during which a SELECT can return an incomplete list of receipts for a date which appears to be closed, even if all transactions for modifying and viewing data are SERIALIZABLE. This window of time runs from the commit of the transaction which updated the control table until the commit of any pending transactions which are inserting receipts and which obtained a snapshot before the update of the control table. To prevent this anomaly, a lock can be taken out on the receipt
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: A language lawyer might also point out that the note that contains the explicitness isn't actually part of the formal standard. The only thing that the standard formally defines are the excluded phenomena. Previously quoted, from the standard: The execution of concurrent SQL-transactions at isolation level SERIALIZABLE is guaranteed to be serializable. A serializable execution is defined to be an execution of the operations of concurrently executing SQL-transactions that produces the same effect as some serial execution of those same SQL-transactions. A serial execution is one in which each SQL-transaction executes to completion before the next SQL-transaction begins. More to the point, think about how a user might want to think about these issues. The standard also requires that serializable transactions behave as though [...] --- User: The standard requires it, but is it also implemented? (Apparently not, but that is explained somewhere else.) That's something I thought about, but failed to find a good way to incorporate at that point, and I thought the discussion in the following sections covered it. Perhaps a reference to those following sections at the point of definition? is a natural consequence of the fact --- There is nothing natural about any of this. Why is it a consequence and how? How could you possibly get any of those phenomena if there are no concurrent transactions? -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Sorry if I'm restating the obvious, however I don't understand the confusion, as it seems the standard's definition isn't mysterious; it simply requires that the resulting state from the concurrent execution of transactions (and implicitly any subset) designated to occur at the isolation level SERIALIZABLE be equivalent to SOME LITERALLY SERIAL execution of said transactions. Thereby although of course transactions literally executed serially comply; they need not be executed literally serially, as long as some mechanism is used to warrant that the state resulting from the completion of every such transaction in some sequence be equivalent to the literally serial execution of the transactions in the same sequence. Thereby even if only a subset of such concurrently executed transactions may be complete at some point in time, any potentially remaining such transactions may be restarted for whatever reason and remain compliant (as the resulting state from the concurrent execution of such transactions will be equivalent to some literal serial execution of said transactions upon the completion of each so executed transaction; correspondingly any implementation which can not warrant the same, is simply non-compliant). Thereby although no pre-specified completion order exists per-se, the order of completion of transactions implicitly determine if incomplete transactions may need to be restarted if dependant on a preceding completed transaction's resulting mutated state (or alternatively allowed to proceed if previously blocked on said potentially mutated state). Thereby although a collection of such concurrently executed transactions my have mutual interdependencies, each subsequent complete transaction in effect break dependency deadlocks as may otherwise logically exist; and thereby may affect optimal logical execution order of remaining such transactions potentially concurrently; and be warranted to never deadlock. I believe IMHO. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Wednesday 31 December 2008 02:33:26 Kevin Grittner wrote: I'm still working on section Serializable Isolation versus True Serializability, but here are all the changes I can see which precede it. Has the review of the SQL specs convinced everyone that this much is appropriate? I don't agree with these changes. You make it sound like serializability is an additional condition on the serializable isolation level on top of the no-phantom-reads condition. I think that is not true, both mathematically and from the wording of the SQL standard. It is an equivalent condition or a consequence, depending on how you view it. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Tuesday 30 December 2008 19:28:01 Kevin Grittner wrote: Here we go. I've labeled the transactions consistently with new thread I started trying to characterize the full scope of issues and workarounds. OK, I believe it now. :-) The missing predicate locking is again at fault here. Because this ... -- connection 1 (start of T0) start transaction isolation level serializable; insert into receipt values (3, (select deposit_date from ctl where k = 'receipt'), 4.00); ... would lock ctl where k = 'receipt' ... -- connection 2 (T1) start transaction isolation level serializable; update ctl set deposit_date = date '2008-12-23' where k = 'receipt'; commit transaction; ... and then this would have to wait ... -- connection 2 (TN version 2) start transaction isolation level serializable; insert into receipt_totals select r.deposit_date, c.deposit_date, sum(amount) from ctl c join receipt r on ( r.deposit_date c.deposit_date and not exists ( select * from receipt r2 where r2.deposit_date c.deposit_date and r2.deposit_date r.deposit_date ) ) group by r.deposit_date, c.deposit_date; commit transaction; ... and this could never be executed before T0 commits. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes: On Wednesday 31 December 2008 02:33:26 Kevin Grittner wrote: I'm still working on section Serializable Isolation versus True Serializability, but here are all the changes I can see which precede it. Has the review of the SQL specs convinced everyone that this much is appropriate? I don't agree with these changes. You make it sound like serializability is an additional condition on the serializable isolation level on top of the no-phantom-reads condition. I think that is not true, both mathematically and from the wording of the SQL standard. It is an equivalent condition or a consequence, depending on how you view it. The standard explicitly says that the no-phantom-reads condition is a consequence of the serializability constraint. Did you miss that whole discussion this past week? -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com Ask me about EnterpriseDB's PostGIS support! -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Sunday 04 January 2009 00:53:51 Gregory Stark wrote: Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes: On Wednesday 31 December 2008 02:33:26 Kevin Grittner wrote: I'm still working on section Serializable Isolation versus True Serializability, but here are all the changes I can see which precede it. Has the review of the SQL specs convinced everyone that this much is appropriate? I don't agree with these changes. You make it sound like serializability is an additional condition on the serializable isolation level on top of the no-phantom-reads condition. I think that is not true, both mathematically and from the wording of the SQL standard. It is an equivalent condition or a consequence, depending on how you view it. The standard explicitly says that the no-phantom-reads condition is a consequence of the serializability constraint. Did you miss that whole discussion this past week? The SQL standard says it in about three different ways, and textbooks might define it an three more ways. That still doesn't negate my concern with the way his patch phrases the issue. A language lawyer might also point out that the note that contains the explicitness isn't actually part of the formal standard. The only thing that the standard formally defines are the excluded phenomena. More to the point, think about how a user might want to think about these issues. The standard also requires that serializable transactions behave as though [...] --- User: The standard requires it, but is it also implemented? (Apparently not, but that is explained somewhere else.) is a natural consequence of the fact --- There is nothing natural about any of this. Why is it a consequence and how? -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Greg Stark wrote: And I don't see why you discard visibility as unimportant. All the transaction isolations are defined in terms of the results if the transactions. Those results include both the database state and the data returned by the queries. Otherwise phantom read is a meaningless concept. Basically, if he wants to make a rigid argument that some scenario violates the serializability promise, then it is necessary to prove: (1) There is no serial schedule for the set of transactions that achieves the same outcome. (This proof is probably hard to work out, as many there is no proofs are.) - or - (2) A phantom read situation occurs. His original argument uses terms like window where something is visible (to whom?), which can probably be transformed into a proof for (2), but is not convincing (to me) by itself. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote:
Greg Stark wrote:
And I don't see why you discard visibility as unimportant. All
the transaction isolations are defined in terms of the results if
the transactions. Those results include both the database state and
the data returned by the queries. Otherwise phantom read is a
meaningless concept.
Basically, if he wants to make a rigid argument that some scenario
violates the serializability promise, then it is necessary to prove:
(1) There is no serial schedule for the set of transactions that
achieves the same outcome.
- or -
(2) A phantom read situation occurs.
Agreed, except that (2) is a subset of (1), so (1) alone is
sufficient. (How can a read not be repeatable if there are no
concurrent transactions?)
I feel that I did provide a proof that the transactions couldn't
represent any serial execution in my original email. This seems to be
disputed with the argument that a SELECT from a database is not
required to provide coherent data that represents some point in the
serializable stream of transactions. I disagree, but as I pointed out
previously, it is trivial to capture the results of any such query
into a table and thereby persist the problem within the database.
Here we go. I've labeled the transactions consistently with new
thread I started trying to characterize the full scope of issues and
workarounds.
-- setup
drop if exists ctl, receipt, receipt_totals;
create table ctl (k text not null primary key, deposit_date date not
null);
insert into ctl values ('receipt', date '2008-12-22');
create table receipt (receipt_no int not null primary key,
deposit_date date not null, amount numeric(13,2));
insert into receipt values (1, (select deposit_date from ctl where k =
'receipt'), 1.00);
insert into receipt values (2, (select deposit_date from ctl where k =
'receipt'), 2.00);
create table receipt_totals (deposit_date date not null primary key,
next_date date not null, deposit_total numeric(13,2) not null);
-- connection 1 (start of T0)
start transaction isolation level serializable;
insert into receipt values (3, (select deposit_date from ctl where k =
'receipt'), 4.00);
-- connection 2 (T1)
start transaction isolation level serializable;
update ctl set deposit_date = date '2008-12-23' where k = 'receipt';
commit transaction;
-- connection 2 (TN version 1)
start transaction isolation level serializable;
select * from ctl;
-- (deposit_date shows as 2008-12-23)
select * from receipt where deposit_date = date '2008-12-22';
-- (Only receipts 1 and 2 show for 2008-12-22.)
commit transaction;
-- connection 2 (TN version 2)
start transaction isolation level serializable;
insert into receipt_totals
select r.deposit_date, c.deposit_date, sum(amount)
from ctl c join receipt r
on ( r.deposit_date c.deposit_date
and not exists
(
select * from receipt r2
where r2.deposit_date c.deposit_date
and r2.deposit_date r.deposit_date
)
)
group by r.deposit_date, c.deposit_date;
commit transaction;
-- connection 1 (end of T0)
commit transaction;
After all this is done, a select from receipt_totals shows:
deposit_date | next_date | deposit_total
--++---
2008-12-22 | 2008-12-23 | 3.00
(1 row)
Here goes the proof, although I'm not going to be overly formal in the
language.
(1) If these transactions were serialized, T0 must come before T1,
because T0 uses the ctl.deposit_date before it is updated by T1.
(2) If these transactions were serialized, T1 must come before TN
(either version), because the TN transactions see the ctl.deposit_date
set by T1.
(3) If these transactions were serialized, the TN transactions must
come before T0, since they don't see the row inserted by T0.
(4) Since serialization requires that T0 T1 TN T0 (comparing
time sequence) the transactions cannot be considered serialized.
-Kevin
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Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: If you have a concrete suggestion (= patch) for the documentation, I'm all ears. I'm still working on section Serializable Isolation versus True Serializability, but here are all the changes I can see which precede it. Has the review of the SQL specs convinced everyone that this much is appropriate? It also seems like the Data Consistency Checks at the Application Level section could use a little more detail. Since referential integrity checks are so well understood, and don't work reliably under snapshot serialization without explicit locks, perhaps that could be added? -Kevin serializable-doc1.diff Description: Binary data -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Tuesday 23 December 2008 16:51:03 Kevin Grittner wrote: If you look at the serializable queries in the original post for this thread, it's not hard to see that this standard is not met. The insert of receipt 3 appears to happen before the update of the control record, since it has the old deposit date. The transaction which selects from both tables sees the update to the control record, so it must come after that. Yet it doesn't see the results of the first transaction. There is no sequence of serial execution which is consistent with the behavior. I am not sure yet whether or not your complaint is valid, but your arguments are not very rigid. Serializability is not defined in terms of what is visible, but what the state of the database is. If you can order the transactions without overlap so that the state of the database is the same as in your original schedule, the schedule is serializable. It is not of concern what was visible in between. You may, however, be able to transform that argument to proving that a phantom read is possible, which is how the SQL standard ultimately defines serializability. Also note that discussing what is visible necessarily implies the existence of another transaction that does the reading, and that transaction does not appear to be defined in your arguments. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: On Tuesday 23 December 2008 16:51:03 Kevin Grittner wrote: If you look at the serializable queries in the original post for this thread, it's not hard to see that this standard is not met. The insert of receipt 3 appears to happen before the update of the control record, since it has the old deposit date. The transaction which selects from both tables sees the update to the control record, so it must come after that. Yet it doesn't see the results of the first transaction. There is no sequence of serial execution which is consistent with the behavior. I am not sure yet whether or not your complaint is valid, but your arguments are not very rigid. Serializability is not defined in terms of what is visible, but what the state of the database is. I don't read the standard that way. I'll repeat the relevant part of the standard: The execution of concurrent SQL-transactions at isolation level SERIALIZABLE is guaranteed to be serializable. A serializable execution is defined to be an execution of the operations of concurrently executing SQL-transactions that produces the same effect as some serial execution of those same SQL-transactions. A serial execution is one in which each SQL-transaction executes to completion before the next SQL-transaction begins. There is no end-to-end sequence in which the transactions listed in my original email can be run that will produce the same effect that you get within PostgreSQL, at least if you consider the results of a SELECT statement to be significant. (I do.) If you can order the transactions without overlap so that the state of the database is the same as in your original schedule, the schedule is serializable. It is not of concern what was visible in between. On what do you base that assertion? You may, however, be able to transform that argument to proving that a phantom read is possible, which is how the SQL standard ultimately defines serializability. No it isn't. The above quoted text is. Also note that discussing what is visible necessarily implies the existence of another transaction that does the reading, and that transaction does not appear to be defined in your arguments. It was this one, in my original post: start transaction isolation level serializable ; select * from ctl; -- (deposit_date shows as 2008-12-23) select * from receipt; -- (Only receipts 1 and 2 show for 2008-12-22.) commit; -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: Serializability is not defined in terms of what is visible, but what the state of the database is. A belated thought on this: It would be easy enough to add a daily_receipt_total table to the example to capture the result of the query, instead of assuming that it merely prints on the daily bank deposit report. That would certainly meet your test of ending with an invalid database state after all the transactions commit. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Sorry for top posting -- damn phone. The standard defines all the *other* transaction isolations in terms of phantom reads, dirty reads, and, uh one other phenomenon. But it defines serializability literally, as the transactions having the same effect as ift they were run serially. It explicitly says the fact that phantom reads can't occur in serializable is only a consequence of tfe definition. And I don't see why you discard visibility as unimportant. All the transaction isolations are defined in terms of the results if the transactions. Those results include both the database state and the data returned by the queries. Otherwise phantom read is a meaningless concept. -- Greg On 29 Dec 2008, at 07:20, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: On Tuesday 23 December 2008 16:51:03 Kevin Grittner wrote: If you look at the serializable queries in the original post for this thread, it's not hard to see that this standard is not met. The insert of receipt 3 appears to happen before the update of the control record, since it has the old deposit date. The transaction which selects from both tables sees the update to the control record, so it must come after that. Yet it doesn't see the results of the first transaction. There is no sequence of serial execution which is consistent with the behavior. I am not sure yet whether or not your complaint is valid, but your arguments are not very rigid. Serializability is not defined in terms of what is visible, but what the state of the database is. If you can order the transactions without overlap so that the state of the database is the same as in your original schedule, the schedule is serializable. It is not of concern what was visible in between. You may, however, be able to transform that argument to proving that a phantom read is possible, which is how the SQL standard ultimately defines serializability. Also note that discussing what is visible necessarily implies the existence of another transaction that does the reading, and that transaction does not appear to be defined in your arguments. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Emmanuel Cecchet m...@frogthinker.org wrote: There was an interesting comment by Oracle folks: Oracle does not provide serializability but only snapshot isolation, and still users prefer to 'downgrade' to read committed for better performance. The Oracle guys experience seemed to indicate that there was no need for serializability (well, that's also less work for them ;-)) in their customer base. Although I note that, while this work was done in 2006 at the University of Sidney, Mr. Cahill is now an employee of Oracle Corporation The interesting thing about this technique is that it works without the kind of blocking which is the bane of other implementation techniques. Reads don't block writes or vice versa. In my receipt example, the fact that there is a transitory state where the view of the data would not be consistent would cause no problems unless someone actually tried to view the data within that (probably very small) window of time. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Emmanuel Cecchet m...@frogthinker.org 12/22/08 11:42 PM If you want to know how to build SERIALIZABLE with a database that provides SI (Snapshot Isolation), read http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1376616.137669 The link didn't seem to work for me, but I think I found the article you meant: Serializable Isolation for Snapshot Databases by Michael J. Cahill, et al An interesting work. If nothing else, it will help flesh out the documentation of anomalies. If the PostgreSQL community ever does want to better approach true serializable behavior, this should provide a good theoretical basis. Thanks very much for the cite. I still don't get why people would use SERIALIZABLE since there is no efficient implementation of it. Read the last paragraph of the secion 1 (Introduction) of the article you just cited. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Hi Kevin, The link didn't seem to work for me, but I think I found the article you meant: Serializable Isolation for Snapshot Databases by Michael J. Cahill, et al An interesting work. If nothing else, it will help flesh out the documentation of anomalies. If the PostgreSQL community ever does want to better approach true serializable behavior, this should provide a good theoretical basis. Sorry for the broken link. Yes this is the paper. Note that the paper was not necessarily enthusiastically received by the community when presented at the conference. While this is an interesting academic paper, it's practicality left a majority of the audience perplex. There was an interesting comment by Oracle folks: Oracle does not provide serializability but only snapshot isolation, and still users prefer to 'downgrade' to read committed for better performance. The Oracle guys experience seemed to indicate that there was no need for serializability (well, that's also less work for them ;-)) in their customer base. Having both a foot in academia and in industry, I understand the intellectual interest for serializability on the academic side, but I still have not seen a single use case in industry where this was a requirement (but my db experience is probably narrow). Have nice serializable holidays ;-) manu -- Emmanuel Cecchet FTO @ Frog Thinker Open Source Development Consulting -- Web: http://www.frogthinker.org email: m...@frogthinker.org Skype: emmanuel_cecchet -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Robert Haas wrote: ... serializable transaction ... If we were to construct a database that had one giant lock for the entire database so that only a single query could execute at one time, transactions would be serializable (because they'd in fact be serialized). However, performance would suck. I wonder if this giant-lock-for-isolation-level-serializable is a mode postgres should support. ISTM it would meet the letter of the spec, and at least some of the people using transaction isolation level serializable are doing so precisely because they *want* the database to deal with all possible serialization issues, and accepting performance penalties. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Dec 24, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Ron Mayer rm...@cheapcomplexdevices.com wrote: Robert Haas wrote: ... serializable transaction ... If we were to construct a database that had one giant lock for the entire database so that only a single query could execute at one time, transactions would be serializable (because they'd in fact be serialized). However, performance would suck. I wonder if this giant-lock-for-isolation-level-serializable is a mode postgres should support. ISTM it would meet the letter of the spec, and at least some of the people using transaction isolation level serializable are doing so precisely because they *want* the database to deal with all possible serialization issues, and accepting performance penalties. No. :-) Cheers, ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov writes: At this point, SERIALIZABLE transactions appear to have worked, with receipt 3 happening before the update of deposit_date; however, there was a window of time when the update to deposit_date was visible and receipt 3 was not. This absolutely can't happen in a standard-compliant implementation. I think you mean you'd like to believe that can't happen in a standard-compliant implementation. The execution of concurrent SQL-transactions at isolation level SERIALIZABLE is guaranteed to be serializable. A serializable execution is defined to be an execution of the operations of concurrently executing SQL-transactions that produces the same effect as some serial execution of those same SQL-transactions. A serial execution is one in which each SQL-transaction executes to completion before the next SQL-transaction begins. If you look at the serializable queries in the original post for this thread, it's not hard to see that this standard is not met. The insert of receipt 3 appears to happen before the update of the control record, since it has the old deposit date. The transaction which selects from both tables sees the update to the control record, so it must come after that. Yet it doesn't see the results of the first transaction. There is no sequence of serial execution which is consistent with the behavior. Perhaps you are suggesting that it's not possible in a practical sense for a DBMS to meet this standard? See below. It doesn't include any of the specific behaviors that are forbidden by the spec, though, so I'm less than convinced. Following the diagram of specific behaviors allowed at each level is good evidence that these phenomena don't *define* serializable: NOTE 53 * The exclusion of these phenomena for SQL-transactions executing at isolation level SERIALIZABLE is a consequence of the requirement that such transactions be serializable. An appropriate way to prevent the problem is probably for the transaction that changes the deposit_date to take out a write-excluding lock on the receipts table before it does so. Well, a serializable transaction operating to standard would probably take out a write-excluding lock on the control table row when it is read. This would block the update to the control table until completion of any pending receipts on the old date. The blocked update would then take out a read-excluding lock before updating the row, which would then block receipt transactions looking to check the date. As soon as the update to the control table is committed, you can see the new date, and you can have confidence that the old date's receipts will all show on a SELECT. Again, I'm not suggesting that we change the behavior of PostgreSQL to match this, but that we document the difference so that those looking to switch to PostgreSQL from databases which provide true serializable transactions know that they have to explicitly lock rows to maintain a coherent view of the data. In the queries shown in the original post, the INSERT of the receipts could read the deposit date FOR SHARE to provide the equivalent functionality, although they would have to be rejiggered a bit, since that isn't allowed in subqueries. This isn't some hypothetical maybe some day some product might implement this, but it'll never catch on sort of thing -- Microsoft and Sybase SQL Server had this from version 1. I used it from 1990 until the conversion to PostgreSQL over the last couple years. Serializable transactions worked as advertised. Was there more blocking than PostgreSQL? Yes. Were there more deadlocks than PostgreSQL? Yes. Did it impact performance? Well, PostgreSQL is faster by enough that users commented that the applications seemed snappier when we switched the database underneath them from Sybase to PostgreSQL. I'm going on second-hand information here, but I'm told that IBM DB2 has used similar techniques to provide true serializable transactions for even longer. I'm somewhat mystified at the reaction this topic gets here. :-/ -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Kevin Grittner wrote: This isn't some hypothetical maybe some day some product might implement this, but it'll never catch on sort of thing -- Microsoft and Sybase SQL Server had this from version 1. I used it from 1990 until the conversion to PostgreSQL over the last couple years. Have you ever used serializable transactions with Sybase? The locking is actually based on memory-pages and you end-up with deadlocks if you don't pad your data structures to prevent false sharing. Oracle also provides SI like Postgres and I don't think they are doing that bad. I'm going on second-hand information here, but I'm told that IBM DB2 has used similar techniques to provide true serializable transactions for even longer. I'm somewhat mystified at the reaction this topic gets here. :- I am somewhat mystified by the interest some people still have in serializable transactions. Why don't users program the application to deal with a lower isolation (actually I think they do)? But I am probably missing the point which was to fix the doc? Emmanuel -- Emmanuel Cecchet FTO @ Frog Thinker Open Source Development Consulting -- Web: http://www.frogthinker.org email: m...@frogthinker.org Skype: emmanuel_cecchet -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Emmanuel Cecchet m...@frogthinker.org 12/23/08 8:59 AM Kevin Grittner wrote: This isn't some hypothetical maybe some day some product might implement this, but it'll never catch on sort of thing -- Microsoft and Sybase SQL Server had this from version 1. I used it from 1990 until the conversion to PostgreSQL over the last couple years. Have you ever used serializable transactions with Sybase? Every day for over 15 years. The locking is actually based on memory-pages and you end-up with deadlocks if you don't pad your data structures to prevent false sharing. We only padded one table, which we were using to assign sequence numbers. Eventually they did come out with support for row level locking, which could be chosen on a table by table basis, which eliminated the need for the padding columns. We didn't go to row-level locking for all tables because the performance hit was significant -- worse than the blocking. Blocking was occasionally an issue. Deadlocks were initially a problem, but they can be handled automatically with resubmit, which we eventually covered gracefully, and they weren't an issue for us after that. Oracle also provides SI like Postgres and I don't think they are doing that bad. I don't quire understand. Could you clarify? I'm going on second-hand information here, but I'm told that IBM DB2 has used similar techniques to provide true serializable transactions for even longer. I'm somewhat mystified at the reaction this topic gets here. :- I am somewhat mystified by the interest some people still have in serializable transactions. Why don't users program the application to deal with a lower isolation (actually I think they do)? There really are good reasons. I'm not up to going through that now, but if there is genuine interest in the topic perhaps I can follow up later. But I am probably missing the point which was to fix the doc? Thank you! -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Kevin Grittner wrote: Emmanuel Cecchet m...@frogthinker.org 12/23/08 8:59 AM I am somewhat mystified by the interest some people still have in serializable transactions. Why don't users program the application to deal with a lower isolation (actually I think they do)? There really are good reasons. I'm not up to going through that now, but if there is genuine interest in the topic perhaps I can follow up later. Well, the reason why people rely on isolation provided by database in general is to make it easier to develop applications. One less thing to worry about. That's why people use RDBMS, transactions, etc. to begin with. But I am probably missing the point which was to fix the doc? Thank you! If you have a concrete suggestion (= patch) for the documentation, I'm all ears. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com 12/23/08 9:47 AM Kevin Grittner wrote: Emmanuel Cecchet m...@frogthinker.org 12/23/08 8:59 AM Why don't users program the application to deal with a lower isolation (actually I think they do)? There really are good reasons. I'm not up to going through that now, but if there is genuine interest in the topic perhaps I can follow up later. Well, the reason why people rely on isolation provided by database in general is to make it easier to develop applications. One less thing to worry about. That's why people use RDBMS, transactions, etc. to begin with. This is the heart of it. The argument is getting made that you don't need serializable transactions because you can duplicate the concurrency control with a combination of read_committed transactions and explicit lock requests. I could also duplicate the functionality of a DBMS with a bunch of disk files and custom, hard-coded access logic, but I sure wouldn't want to do so. If you have a concrete suggestion (= patch) for the documentation, I'm all ears. Well, I figured I should try to get a consensus here before submitting a patch. Last time I tried submitting a simple patch to remove the line about the PostgreSQL community not knowing about any other databases which use predicate locking, I got shot down hard. Does the phantom receipt example from the original post seem like a reasonable thing to include in the doc patch? Does someone have a more comprehensive summary of where the issues are than I've been able to generate so far? The patch should also include information on workarounds. I'd be inclined to frame them in terms of how to duplicate the behavior of serializable transactions on other databases from which the reader might be converting, which would start with using SELECT FOR SHARE for any SELECT within a serializable transaction. That doesn't cover everything, because, unlike Sybase, et al, it doesn't block conflicting INSERTs. I'm not sure I have a firm conceptual grasp on when and how that renders the SELECT FOR SHARE technique incomplete, but I could try to think it through. If someone already has comprehensive guidelines on that, it would save time and might improve the quality of the docs. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov writes: Emmanuel Cecchet m...@frogthinker.org 12/23/08 8:59 AM Have you ever used serializable transactions with Sybase? Every day for over 15 years. Afaict doing a few google searches Sybase doesn't do predicate locking either. It would very much surprise me if they did since they've always had the most primitive locking infrastructure of the three major databases. Locking records or pages isn't going to provide true standards-compliant serializable transactions in the way you're describing. Predicate locking means being able to lock records which don't actually exist yet. Ie, locking all records WHERE COLUMN=0 even if there are no such records. This has to block any other transaction from inserting such a record or updating another record to set COLUMN to 0. Oracle also provides SI like Postgres and I don't think they are doing that bad. I don't quire understand. Could you clarify? The point is Oracle doesn't provide this kind of true serializable isolation and people still find it useful. In fact Sybase and DB2 also don't provide true serializable transactions -- nobody does. It's a fantasy. There really are good reasons. I'm not up to going through that now, but if there is genuine interest in the topic perhaps I can follow up later. I suppose I'm curious whether you're mistaken and your app isn't safe on Sybase because it's depending on truly serializable transactions and Sybase isn't doing that, or if you have examples of transactions which Sybase provides proper serialized semantics for but Postgres doesn't. But I am probably missing the point which was to fix the doc? But missing the point and having pointless arguments is so much more fun than documentation writing :) -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com Ask me about EnterpriseDB's RemoteDBA services! -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Gregory Stark st...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov writes: Emmanuel Cecchet m...@frogthinker.org 12/23/08 8:59 AM Have you ever used serializable transactions with Sybase? Every day for over 15 years. Afaict doing a few google searches Sybase doesn't do predicate locking either. It would very much surprise me if they did since they've always had the most primitive locking infrastructure of the three major databases. Locking records or pages isn't going to provide true standards-compliant serializable transactions in the way you're describing. Predicate locking means being able to lock records which don't actually exist yet. Ie, locking all records WHERE COLUMN=0 even if there are no such records. This has to block any other transaction from inserting such a record or updating another record to set COLUMN to 0. The page locking provides this because every index page or data page the serializable transaction looks at is locked against updates until the end of the transaction. If it can see all the COLUMN=0 rows through an index, the index locks protect the transaction. If a table scan is required, the entire table is locked against all modifications. (That's right, it is not unusual to have entire tables locked against any modification until the end of a database transaction.) Oracle also provides SI like Postgres and I don't think they are doing that bad. I don't quire understand. Could you clarify? The point is Oracle doesn't provide this kind of true serializable isolation and people still find it useful. Sure, and I find PostgreSQL useful. I'm not proposing to change it. In fact Sybase and DB2 also don't provide true serializable transactions -- nobody does. It's a fantasy. They do. They have for over 15 years. If people will read it, I'll try to find the a web page where they give all the details of the strategy. There really are good reasons. I'm not up to going through that now, but if there is genuine interest in the topic perhaps I can follow up later. I suppose I'm curious whether you're mistaken and your app isn't safe on Sybase because it's depending on truly serializable transactions and Sybase isn't doing that, or if you have examples of transactions which Sybase provides proper serialized semantics for but Postgres doesn't. All the examples provided in this thread would be handled by Sybase with proper serializable semantics. When I proposed changing the docs to omit the reference to our lack of knowledge about other database products, there was a full example of code that didn't serialize according to the mathematical definition. I cut and pasted into Sybase and provided the results -- a deadlock. Can you provide any example or logical explanation of where the technique I outline above (locking against modification for every index and data page read during the transaction until the end of the transaction) would NOT provide true serializable behavior? (Keep in mind that that's the broad stroke overview -- the full details include various lock escalation techniques, etc.) But I am probably missing the point which was to fix the doc? But missing the point and having pointless arguments is so much more fun than documentation writing :) Frankly, I prefer other sports. :-( -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Reading the spec it does seem our initial statement The SQL standard defines four levels of transaction isolation in terms of three phenomena that must be prevented between concurrent transactions is not accurate. The spec defines the first three modes in terms of P1,P2,P3 but serializable is defined, as Kevin describes, as literally serializable. It is included in the table but with the note: NOTE 71 — The exclusion of these phenomena for SQL-transactions executing at isolation level SERIALIZABLE is a consequence of the requirement that such transactions be serializable. So it's clear that that's not the definition. Excluding P1,P2,P3 is necessary but not sufficient to meet the spec's definition of Serializable. Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov writes: Gregory Stark st...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Afaict doing a few google searches Sybase doesn't do predicate locking either. The page locking provides this because every index page or data page the serializable transaction looks at is locked against updates until the end of the transaction. If it can see all the COLUMN=0 rows through an index, the index locks protect the transaction. If a table scan is required, the entire table is locked against all modifications. (That's right, it is not unusual to have entire tables locked against any modification until the end of a database transaction.) Ah, so they don't actually use the term predicate locking which is why my google-fu was inadequate. I'm not sure if this is technically predicate locking or not. It sounds like it locks a whole lot more than just the predicate. All the examples provided in this thread would be handled by Sybase with proper serializable semantics. When I proposed changing the docs to omit the reference to our lack of knowledge about other database products, there was a full example of code that didn't serialize according to the mathematical definition. I cut and pasted into Sybase and provided the results -- a deadlock. Can you provide any example or logical explanation of where the technique I outline above (locking against modification for every index and data page read during the transaction until the end of the transaction) would NOT provide true serializable behavior? (Keep in mind that that's the broad stroke overview -- the full details include various lock escalation techniques, etc.) I imagine they preemptively escalate to locking the table if you're going to do a sequential scan? Otherwise an inserter might insert on a page you haven't read yet (and therefore haven't locked yet)? -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com Ask me about EnterpriseDB's RemoteDBA services! -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008, Kevin Grittner wrote: The page locking provides this because every index page or data page the serializable transaction looks at is locked against updates until the end of the transaction. If it can see all the COLUMN=0 rows through an index, the index locks protect the transaction. If a table scan is required, the entire table is locked against all modifications. (That's right, it is not unusual to have entire tables locked against any modification until the end of a database transaction.) Well, predicate locking for serializable also should only lock the appropriate conditions. Getting a deadlock between two serializable transactions for conditions that can be serialized would seemingly also be disallowed by the definition of serializable since there would exist no serial ordering of the transactions that has that effect. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Gregory Stark st...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov writes: Gregory Stark st...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Afaict doing a few google searches Sybase doesn't do predicate locking either. The page locking provides this because every index page or data page the serializable transaction looks at is locked against updates until the end of the transaction. If it can see all the COLUMN=0 rows through an index, the index locks protect the transaction. If a table scan is required, the entire table is locked against all modifications. (That's right, it is not unusual to have entire tables locked against any modification until the end of a database transaction.) Ah, so they don't actually use the term predicate locking which is why my google-fu was inadequate. I'm not sure if this is technically predicate locking or not. It sounds like it locks a whole lot more than just the predicate. Well, I'm not sure whether it is or not; it's a matter of definition. If predicate locking is required for true serializable transactions, and this provides true serializable transactions, it must be, eh? Also, an argument could be made that if it locks every page which must be viewed for execution based on the search predicates, it is doing predicate locking -- if only indirectly. All the examples provided in this thread would be handled by Sybase with proper serializable semantics. When I proposed changing the docs to omit the reference to our lack of knowledge about other database products, there was a full example of code that didn't serialize according to the mathematical definition. I cut and pasted into Sybase and provided the results -- a deadlock. Can you provide any example or logical explanation of where the technique I outline above (locking against modification for every index and data page read during the transaction until the end of the transaction) would NOT provide true serializable behavior? (Keep in mind that that's the broad stroke overview -- the full details include various lock escalation techniques, etc.) I imagine they preemptively escalate to locking the table if you're going to do a sequential scan? Otherwise an inserter might insert on a page you haven't read yet (and therefore haven't locked yet)? I believe they do go straight to the table lock for a table scan, but it isn't necessary for full semantics that the transaction lock all pages in advance. For most purposes the serializable transaction can proceed to lock pages as it gets to them. It will block or deadlock if a conflict arises. The transaction may serialize behind a transaction which started later and read some page it hadn't gotten to yet, but that doesn't violate the spec or cause any anomalies. The key phrase in the spec here is produces the same effect as *some* serial execution [emphasis added]. It will escalate from page locks to a table lock if a (configurable) number or percentage of a table's pages get locked. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Stephan Szabo ssz...@megazone.bigpanda.com wrote: On Tue, 23 Dec 2008, Kevin Grittner wrote: The page locking provides this because every index page or data page the serializable transaction looks at is locked against updates until the end of the transaction. If it can see all the COLUMN=0 rows through an index, the index locks protect the transaction. If a table scan is required, the entire table is locked against all modifications. (That's right, it is not unusual to have entire tables locked against any modification until the end of a database transaction.) Well, predicate locking for serializable also should only lock the appropriate conditions. Getting a deadlock between two serializable transactions for conditions that can be serialized would seemingly also be disallowed by the definition of serializable since there would exist no serial ordering of the transactions that has that effect. Clever. If a DBMS is capable of reporting that it was unable to serialize a transaction in a situation where there is a logical possibility that a different implementation might have succeeded, it hasn't implemented true serializable transactions? That strikes me as being on a level with Codd's assertion that any database which takes two different statements which can be proven to be logically identical and runs one with a different plan than the other should not be called relational. (i.e., possibly true from a technical perspective, but hardly useful in the real world.) Perhaps it would be best to accept this as proof that there is no current DBMS implementing true serializable transactions and move on to the issue of documenting real difference between PostgreSQL other products which come closer to compliance, so that real people converting from those products don't suffer real production problems. As I see it, that's what matters. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Tue, 2008-12-23 at 00:42 -0500, Emmanuel Cecchet wrote: I still don't get why people would use SERIALIZABLE since there is no efficient implementation of it. If they need true serializable transactions, and don't care about efficiency. Regards, Jeff Davis -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
The page locking provides this because every index page or data page the serializable transaction looks at is locked against updates until the end of the transaction. If it can see all the COLUMN=0 rows through an index, the index locks protect the transaction. If a table scan is required, the entire table is locked against all modifications. (That's right, it is not unusual to have entire tables locked against any modification until the end of a database transaction.) You've mentioned a couple of times that you're surprised by the reaction of the community to your proposed documentation changes. I have (a more muted version of) the same reaction as several previous posters, and I think in the context of this paragraph I can explain why. If we were to construct a database that had one giant lock for the entire database so that only a single query could execute at one time, transactions would be serializable (because they'd in fact be serialized). However, performance would suck. Therefore, database developers and researchers have spent the last twenty (or more?) years trying to come up with ways to allow multiple transactions to execute in parallel while maintaining the appearance of serialization. They've done this by introducing lower level locks: table-level, page-level, row-level. For most users, the artifacts that have been introduced by these fine-grained locks are outweighed by the performance benefits of greater concurrency - but, as you point out, not necessarily always. I don't think I can overstate the extent to which fine-grained locking is viewed as a good thing. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the locking behavior that you're relying on in Sybase is one which some group of Sybase developers (if there still are any) are busily laboring to eliminate. I think you can see this reflected in Greg Stark's comment as well: It would very much surprise me if they did since they've always had the most primitive locking infrastructure of the three major databases. With respect to predicate locking, what you're describing is NOT predicate locking. It's coarse-grained locking that largely or completely obviates the need for predicate locking by greatly reducing concurrency. Now, from the point of view of the application developer who needs very strong serializability guarantees but doesn't care about concurrency, that's six of one, half a dozen of the other, but to me that's the opposite of the typical situation. Maybe our documentation could say something along the lines of PostgreSQL's MVCC framework and row-level locking permit a greater degree of concurrency than some other databases. Even when the transaction isolation level is set to serializable, serialization anomalies can occur in the following situations. When it is important to prevent these anomalies, explicit row-level or table-level locking can be used at the expense of reduced concurrency. ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Tue, 2008-12-23 at 10:10 -0600, Kevin Grittner wrote: Well, I figured I should try to get a consensus here before submitting a patch. Last time I tried submitting a simple patch to remove the line about the PostgreSQL community not knowing about any other databases which use predicate locking, I got shot down hard. The docs got changed though. I think the current docs make too much of a deal about how hard it is to do predicate locking in databases. Most RDBMS use predicate locking via indexes, ie the locking happens in the index. One might also argue that it is potentially more efficient design, as TPC-C shows, though such cases of application scalability are rare in the extreme and the utility of MVCC is by far the best general approach in terms of ease of use and performance. The example in the docs is not a realistic example, so your new one is useful. I would want you to update it though to show how use of row level locks can be used to enforce correct behaviour when required, so provide a problem and its solution. It will b useful for people moving from systems like Sybase that use locking often fall foul of the *lack* of locking in MVCC and write programs that won't work correctly as a result. -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.com PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: For most users, the artifacts that have been introduced by these fine-grained locks are outweighed by the performance benefits of greater concurrency - but, as you point out, not necessarily always. That's what I don't understand. I never did point that out. I never suggested it. I never requested a change to the software. I just suggested that we document the artifacts. Ah, well; thanks for the feedback. With respect to predicate locking, what you're describing is NOT predicate locking. I never would have considered it to be such except for some people insisting that a true serializable implementation is impossible without predicate locking. Either that assertion is false or this is a form of predicate locking, crude as it might be. Maybe our documentation could say something along the lines of PostgreSQL's MVCC framework and row-level locking permit a greater degree of concurrency than some other databases. Even when the transaction isolation level is set to serializable, serialization anomalies can occur in the following situations. When it is important to prevent these anomalies, explicit row-level or table-level locking can be used at the expense of reduced concurrency. That's responsive to my concern and nicely worded. Thanks. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Simon Riggs si...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: On Tue, 2008-12-23 at 10:10 -0600, Kevin Grittner wrote: I think the current docs make too much of a deal about how hard it is to do predicate locking in databases. Most RDBMS use predicate locking via indexes, ie the locking happens in the index. One might also argue that it is potentially more efficient design, as TPC-C shows, though such cases of application scalability are rare in the extreme and the utility of MVCC is by far the best general approach in terms of ease of use and performance. The example in the docs is not a realistic example, so your new one is useful. The one currently in the docs is the simplest case I can see of an anomaly which leaves the database in the wrong state after all the commits go through. I think it should probably be kept for that reason. The out-of-sequence appearance of changes before all commits happen seems much more likely to bite people, though. Agreed? I would want you to update it though to show how use of row level locks can be used to enforce correct behaviour when required, so provide a problem and its solution. It will b useful for people moving from systems like Sybase that use locking often fall foul of the *lack* of locking in MVCC and write programs that won't work correctly as a result. Understood and agreed. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Jeff Davis wrote: On Tue, 2008-12-23 at 00:42 -0500, Emmanuel Cecchet wrote: I still don't get why people would use SERIALIZABLE since there is no efficient implementation of it. If they need true serializable transactions, and don't care about efficiency. Is there such people who really understand the thing and don't complain about the performance? ;-) Happy holidays, Emmanuel -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:00:53AM -0600, Kevin Grittner wrote: As I've understood limitations of the PostgreSQL implementation of SERIALIZABLE transactions, at least the only example given in the documentation, revolve around a rather unlikely situation: Given concurrent transactions T1 and T2 and non-overlapping sets of data A and B, T1 reads data including A and uses the data to modify B while T2 reads data including B and uses that data to modify A, where the modifications performed by either would affect the modifications made by the other, if they were visible. In so far as the modifications are just INSERTs (no UPDATEs or DELETEs), yes. This case is covered in the documentation. Imagine, as an example, a system which involves recording receipts, each of which must go into a daily deposit. There is a control table with one row containing the current deposit date for receipts. Somewhere mid-afternoon that date is updated, all subsequent receipts fall into the new day, and a report is run listing the receipts for the day and giving the deposit total. This is a variation of the above and has the same proper solution: predicate locking. However, in this case the records in question are already present so you can workaround it easily. First do a SELECT FOR UPDATE on all the records you want to update. This will serialize all parallel transactions to either before or after you. Then do your update. This absolutely can't happen in a standard-compliant implementation. At a minimum, this window where visible data lacks coherency should be noted in the documentation. I don't know if there's any way to fix this without killing performance. Predicate locking is nasty and we don't try. I'm not sure if anybody else does. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout klep...@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ Please line up in a tree and maintain the heap invariant while boarding. Thank you for flying nlogn airlines. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Martijn van Oosterhout klep...@svana.org wrote: On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:00:53AM -0600, Kevin Grittner wrote: As I've understood limitations of the PostgreSQL implementation of SERIALIZABLE transactions, at least the only example given in the documentation, revolve around a rather unlikely situation: Given concurrent transactions T1 and T2 and non-overlapping sets of data A and B, T1 reads data including A and uses the data to modify B while T2 reads data including B and uses that data to modify A, where the modifications performed by either would affect the modifications made by the other, if they were visible. In so far as the modifications are just INSERTs (no UPDATEs or DELETEs), yes. This case is covered in the documentation. Let's not understate the scope of the issue. UPDATEs and DELETEs count, too. For example: -- connection 1 cir= create table mytab (class int not null, value int not null); CREATE TABLE cir= copy mytab from stdin; Enter data to be copied followed by a newline. End with a backslash and a period on a line by itself. 110 120 2100 2200 \. cir= start transaction isolation level serializable; START TRANSACTION cir= update mytab set value = (select sum(value) from mytab where class = 2) where class = 1 and value = 10; UPDATE 1 -- connection 2 cir= start transaction isolation level serializable; START TRANSACTION cir= update mytab set value = (select sum(value) from mytab where class = 1) where class = 2 and value = 100; UPDATE 1 cir= commit transaction; COMMIT -- connection 1 cir= commit transaction; COMMIT cir= select * from mytab; class | value ---+--- 1 |20 2 | 200 1 | 300 2 |30 (4 rows) Imagine, as an example, a system which involves recording receipts, each of which must go into a daily deposit. There is a control table with one row containing the current deposit date for receipts. Somewhere mid-afternoon that date is updated, all subsequent receipts fall into the new day, and a report is run listing the receipts for the day and giving the deposit total. This is a variation of the above and has the same proper solution: predicate locking. However, in this case the records in question are already present so you can workaround it easily. First do a SELECT FOR UPDATE on all the records you want to update. This will serialize all parallel transactions to either before or after you. Then do your update. My point isn't that there aren't workarounds, it is that people might reasonably assume that SERIALIZABLE transactions provide sufficient concurrency control for this, since the only example we give of a problem is a rather contrived update anomaly. The fact that even in cases where the data settles into good form at commit leave windows where race conditions could cause occasional bad results without extra explicit locking is not obvious. This absolutely can't happen in a standard-compliant implementation. At a minimum, this window where visible data lacks coherency should be noted in the documentation. I don't know if there's any way to fix this without killing performance. Predicate locking is nasty and we don't try. I'm not sure if anybody else does. I know for a fact that Sybase ASE does. I've heard from reasonably reliable sources that DB2 does. I know that Microsoft SQL Server did for some time after the split from the Sybase code base, but I'm not sure they've continued that; in fact there was a reference to concurrency issues in wikipedia which implied that they no longer do. The implementation is not pretty -- they do it by locking accessed pages and insertion points, and in some cases entire tables. It is so ugly that at one point in discussing similar issues Tom said that it couldn't really qualify as predicate locking, but in the face of the fact that they have covered all the bases to provide true serializable transactions, and that theory says that only predicate locking can do that, he conceded that it was predicate locking -- but really ugly and in a form he would never support. Anyway, I didn't argue that we should provide truly serializable transactions, just that we should provide a less contrived example of where the PostgreSQL implementation can show anomalies, so that people don't get burned through a false sense of security. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Kevin Grittner kevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov writes: At this point, SERIALIZABLE transactions appear to have worked, with receipt 3 happening before the update of deposit_date; however, there was a window of time when the update to deposit_date was visible and receipt 3 was not. This absolutely can't happen in a standard-compliant implementation. I think you mean you'd like to believe that can't happen in a standard-compliant implementation. It doesn't include any of the specific behaviors that are forbidden by the spec, though, so I'm less than convinced. An appropriate way to prevent the problem is probably for the transaction that changes the deposit_date to take out a write-excluding lock on the receipts table before it does so. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] incoherent view of serializable transactions
Kevin,
If you want to know how to build SERIALIZABLE with a database that
provides SI (Snapshot Isolation), read
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1376616.137669
Note that in practice, READ COMMITTED is the most largely used isolation
level and its limitations are relatively well understood by the average
programmer that can program his application accordingly. I still don't
get why people would use SERIALIZABLE since there is no efficient
implementation of it.
My 2 cents.
Emmanuel
Kevin Grittner wrote:
As I've understood limitations of the PostgreSQL implementation of
SERIALIZABLE transactions, at least the only example given in the
documentation, revolve around a rather unlikely situation:
Given concurrent transactions T1 and T2 and non-overlapping sets of
data A and B, T1 reads data including A and uses the data to modify B
while T2 reads data including B and uses that data to modify A, where
the modifications performed by either would affect the modifications
made by the other, if they were visible.
For reasons I'll omit here, that scenario didn't worry me for my
current uses of PostgreSQL.
I've found another form of deviation from the standard SERIALIZABLE
behavior, though, which does worry me. Although the above appears to be
the only situation where the end result after everything commits is
inconsistent with standard SERIALIZABLE behavior, the PostgreSQL
implementation allows transactions to view the data in states which
would never be possible during the application of the transactions in
series in the order they will appear to have been applied after the
commit.
Imagine, as an example, a system which involves recording receipts,
each of which must go into a daily deposit. There is a control table
with one row containing the current deposit date for receipts.
Somewhere mid-afternoon that date is updated, all subsequent receipts
fall into the new day, and a report is run listing the receipts for the
day and giving the deposit total.
Under a standard-compliant implementation of SERIALIZABLE, this is
straightforward: a transaction which is inserting a receipt selects the
deposit date to use in its transaction, and any SELECT of receipts for a
date prior to the current deposit date will see the accurate, final
data. Under the PostgreSQL implementation, although data eventually
gets to a coherent state, there can be a window of time where a SELECT
can return an incomplete list of receipts for a date which appears to be
closed, even if all transactions for modifying and viewing data are
SERIALIZABLE.
-- setup
create table ctl (k text not null primary key, deposit_date date not
null);
insert into ctl values ('receipt', date '2008-12-22');
create table receipt (receipt_no int not null primary key, deposit_date
date not null, amount numeric(13,2));
insert into receipt values (1, (select deposit_date from ctl where k =
'receipt'), 1.00);
insert into receipt values (2, (select deposit_date from ctl where k =
'receipt'), 2.00);
-- connection 1
start transaction isolation level serializable ;
insert into receipt values (3, (select deposit_date from ctl where k =
'receipt'), 4.00);
-- connection 2
start transaction isolation level serializable ;
update ctl set deposit_date = date '2008-12-23' where k = 'receipt';
commit transaction;
start transaction isolation level serializable ;
select * from ctl;
-- (deposit_date shows as 2008-12-23)
select * from receipt;
-- (Only receipts 1 and 2 show for 2008-12-22.)
commit;
-- connection 1
commit transaction;
-- connection 2
start transaction isolation level serializable ;
select * from receipt;
-- (All receipts for the 2008-12-22 deposit date now show.)
commit transaction;
At this point, SERIALIZABLE transactions appear to have worked, with
receipt 3 happening before the update of deposit_date; however, there
was a window of time when the update to deposit_date was visible and
receipt 3 was not.
This absolutely can't happen in a standard-compliant implementation.
At a minimum, this window where visible data lacks coherency should be
noted in the documentation. I don't know if there's any way to fix
this without killing performance.
-Kevin
--
Emmanuel Cecchet
FTO @ Frog Thinker
Open Source Development Consulting
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email: m...@frogthinker.org
Skype: emmanuel_cecchet
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