Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
On 02.01.2014, at 14:07, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On 02 Jan 2014, at 11:49, Volkert Barr wrote: > >> >> On 01.01.2014, at 19:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> I understand that community support is needed, and yes i am willing to help. As a first step i can offer my help to test pharo features, help to write test cases, write some example code snippets, open bug reports. But i am not sure what Pharo features or libraries i should put my focus on. Any suggestions where to dig in? >>> >>> Excellent! >>> Thanks. I suggest that you focus on what you like or what you want to learn >>> and do it step by step. >>> Stef >>> >> I would like to understand ui and graphics programming in Pharo. I have >> found different ui related libraries, but not really understand how >> they all relate to each other, what their purposes and what will be "part >> of" future Pharo Versions and what not. >> > This is not that easy. For example, some of these things are not libraries > but just “SystemCategories full of random stuff”. > >> Spec > > Specifying UIs, layer on top of Morphic (but the goal is to be in depended) > >> Glamour > > From Moose > >> UIManager > Random package, not nice. Needs love. > >> Polymorph > Partly new widgets, partly a builder (programmatically) for UIs, partly lots > of overrides for morhic > > —> needs to be moved to Morphic base, Morphic Widgets, overrides need to be > move to the other packages > We need to see if the builder parts are needed considering Spec. > >> FreeType > Fonts > >> Keymapping > Keyboard shorcut support > >> Multilingual > > Lots of random stuff for I18N support. > >> Morphic > > a big mess... > >> Graphics > > Random classes related to Graphics. The Canvas is strangely in Morphic, > though. > needs cleanup and thought. What is basic Graphics? What is Morhic? What is > backward > compatibility? What can be removed? > >> Balloon > Old 2D stuff, incomplete. There is a backend for Athens that uses it, which > is handy for > debugging. In the long run —> remove > >> Athens > New 2D Vector API, with backend for Cairo (and Ballon for debugging) right > now. > This is the future. > >> NBOpenGL > > OpenGL bindings. We want in the long run to render Athens directly with this… > (very long run). :-) Thank you Marcus for your clarification. I first try to dig into Spec, Polymorph and Morphic. BW, Volkert
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
On 02 Jan 2014, at 11:49, Volkert Barr wrote: > > On 01.01.2014, at 19:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >>> I understand that community support is needed, and yes i am willing to >>> help. As a first step i can offer my help to test pharo features, help to >>> write test cases, write some example code snippets, open bug reports. But >>> i am not sure what Pharo features or libraries i should put my focus on. >>> Any suggestions where to dig in? >> >> Excellent! >> Thanks. I suggest that you focus on what you like or what you want to learn >> and do it step by step. >> Stef >> > I would like to understand ui and graphics programming in Pharo. I have found > different ui related libraries, but not really understand how > they all relate to each other, what their purposes and what will be "part > of" future Pharo Versions and what not. > This is not that easy. For example, some of these things are not libraries but just “SystemCategories full of random stuff”. > Spec Specifying UIs, layer on top of Morphic (but the goal is to be in depended) > Glamour From Moose > UIManager Random package, not nice. Needs love. > Polymorph Partly new widgets, partly a builder (programmatically) for UIs, partly lots of overrides for morhic —> needs to be moved to Morphic base, Morphic Widgets, overrides need to be move to the other packages We need to see if the builder parts are needed considering Spec. > FreeType Fonts > Keymapping Keyboard shorcut support > Multilingual Lots of random stuff for I18N support. > Morphic a big mess... > Graphics Random classes related to Graphics. The Canvas is strangely in Morphic, though. needs cleanup and thought. What is basic Graphics? What is Morhic? What is backward compatibility? What can be removed? > Balloon Old 2D stuff, incomplete. There is a backend for Athens that uses it, which is handy for debugging. In the long run —> remove > Athens New 2D Vector API, with backend for Cairo (and Ballon for debugging) right now. This is the future. > NBOpenGL OpenGL bindings. We want in the long run to render Athens directly with this… (very long run).
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
On 02 Jan 2014, at 11:48, Volkert Barr wrote: > > On 01.01.2014, at 19:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >>> I understand that community support is needed, and yes i am willing to >>> help. As a first step i can offer my help to test pharo features, help to >>> write test cases, write some example code snippets, open bug reports. But >>> i am not sure what Pharo features or libraries i should put my focus on. >>> Any suggestions where to dig in? >> >> Excellent! >> Thanks. I suggest that you focus on what you like or what you want to learn >> and do it step by step. >> Stef >> > I would like to understand ui and graphics programming in Pharo. I have found > different ui related libraries, but not really understand how > they all relate to each other, what their purposes and what will be "part > of" future Pharo Versions and what not. > > Spec > Glamour > UIManager > Polymorph > FreeType > Keymapping > Multilingual > Morphic > Graphics > Balloon > Athens > NBOpenGL You are mixing a lot of things that are not related. Spec is a way to build widgets and applications (like in VisualWorks) UiManager is just a way to manage image with or without ui + a facade that one day should disappear. Polymorph is an extension of Morph that we are slowly absorbing into Morph. Multilngual I let you guess but this is about multi language support :) Graphics is the low level system to manage bitmaps and others. NBOpenGL is an API to call openGL Athens is an API read the Pharo vision document to understand what it means. Stef
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
Roassal is about visualizing and interacting with objects. Roassal is frequently used when analyzing data, in particular software related data. Roassal may be used as it is, or one can use one of the available layers at the top of it. For example, GraphET is about drawing charts, curves and so on. Alexandre > Le 02-01-2014 à 7:48, Volkert Barr a écrit : > > > On 01.01.2014, at 19:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >>> I understand that community support is needed, and yes i am willing to >>> help. As a first step i can offer my help to test pharo features, help to >>> write test cases, write some example code snippets, open bug reports. But >>> i am not sure what Pharo features or libraries i should put my focus on. >>> Any suggestions where to dig in? >> >> Excellent! >> Thanks. I suggest that you focus on what you like or what you want to learn >> and do it step by step. >> Stef > I would like to understand ui and graphics programming in Pharo. I have found > different ui related libraries, but not really understand how > they all relate to each other, what their purposes and what will be "part > of" future Pharo Versions and what not. > > Spec > Glamour > UIManager > Polymorph > FreeType > Keymapping > Multilingual > Morphic > Graphics > Balloon > Athens > NBOpenGL > > BW, > Volkert > > > > >
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
On 01.01.2014, at 19:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> I understand that community support is needed, and yes i am willing to help. >> As a first step i can offer my help to test pharo features, help to write >> test cases, write some example code snippets, open bug reports. But i am >> not sure what Pharo features or libraries i should put my focus on. Any >> suggestions where to dig in? > > Excellent! > Thanks. I suggest that you focus on what you like or what you want to learn > and do it step by step. > Stef > I would like to understand ui and graphics programming in Pharo. I have found different ui related libraries, but not really understand how they all relate to each other, what their purposes and what will be "part of" future Pharo Versions and what not. Spec Glamour UIManager Polymorph FreeType Keymapping Multilingual Morphic Graphics Balloon Athens NBOpenGL BW, Volkert
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
> I understand that community support is needed, and yes i am willing to help. > As a first step i can offer my help to test pharo features, help to write > test cases, write some example code snippets, open bug reports. But i am not > sure what Pharo features or libraries i should put my focus on. Any > suggestions where to dig in? Excellent! Thanks. I suggest that you focus on what you like or what you want to learn and do it step by step. Stef
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
> We all appreciate when Pharo is useful. But it is not yet finished (if it > ever will) and you are welcome to help moving it forward as > yet another crazy guy. Step by step it goes ... > > Bye > Torsten I understand that community support is needed, and yes i am willing to help. As a first step i can offer my help to test pharo features, help to write test cases, write some example code snippets, open bug reports. But i am not sure what Pharo features or libraries i should put my focus on. Any suggestions where to dig in? BW, Volkert
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
Thanks we hope that you will help us taking what is good from python (I have a long list of good and bad but the problem is that our community is not large enough yet). Stef On 30 Dec 2013, at 16:03, kilon alios wrote: > " We all appreciate when Pharo is useful. But it is not yet finished (if it > ever will) and you are welcome to help moving it forward as > yet another crazy guy. Step by step it goes ..." > > Fortunately their are plenty of "crazy" people to prove "logical" people > wrong and drive progress forward. > > Here is a nice article about them. > > http://listverse.com/2007/10/28/top-30-failed-technology-predictions/ > > I will also like to thank pharo people for their work. Sorry if I have > replied to this thread before I have a bad memory. > > I started pharo like a "crazy" experiment, I never expected that I would > abandon a well established , supported and popular programming language like > python for pharo. > > The plan was simple to "steal ideas" from pharo and port them to python on > the premise that I would like several things that would be doable by one > person. Then I discovered more and more things I liked that became complete > insane to even imagine that I could port all these things to python. I > certainly did not want to abandon the comfort of python and learn things from > scratch but I was completely hooked with how amazing pharo is. So here I am, > I only hope I do my very small part to push pharo forward, with my project > Ephestos and small bug fixes here and there. Still long way to go to really > understand pharo and its libraries but as you so wisely said step by step I > am moving forward and that can only be a good thing. >
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
On 30 Dec 2013, at 15:23, Torsten Bergmann wrote: >> Thank you for Pharo …. >> >> I am following the development of Pharo since its fork from Squeak, and i am >> really impressed what you crazy guys all have archived the last years. It >> all >> evolved to really nice language, a fantastic nice looking live programming >> environment, cool packages and a growing ecosystems. >> I have so much fun using Pharo. Thank you. > > We all appreciate when Pharo is useful. But it is not yet finished (if it > ever will) and you are welcome to help moving it forward as > yet another crazy guy. Step by step it goes ... > The secret is that even incremental progress is non-linear *if* you mange to build a feedback loop. It is a tiny (insignificant, even) improvement, but it is applied to what is the implementation *and* the tools that are used to do the next improvement. This means that the next tiny improvement will be a little bit larger, leading to the one after that being a little bit more, and so on. Every improvement is tiny judging from the prior state, but if you compare it to 100 iterations back it will look completely impossible from that point of view, as the change seen as a one-step linear change would be extremely (even impossibly) large. As a bonus, as the result was not done with large prior planning but in a continuous process, this way of doing avoids traps of waterfall approaches: one can start to move even with plans unfinished or take the fact into account that everyone learns while doing and what you thought would be so great will always look insignificant once completed. In addition it allows for Bootstrapping, even taking things like financing and manpower into account. Even though the process is not finished (and the goal not reached), it can support its own evolution, as opposed to having to finish everything before e.g. supporting peoples work and life. Marcus
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
" We all appreciate when Pharo is useful. But it is not yet finished (if it ever will) and you are welcome to help moving it forward as yet another crazy guy. Step by step it goes ..." Fortunately their are plenty of "crazy" people to prove "logical" people wrong and drive progress forward. Here is a nice article about them. http://listverse.com/2007/10/28/top-30-failed-technology-predictions/ I will also like to thank pharo people for their work. Sorry if I have replied to this thread before I have a bad memory. I started pharo like a "crazy" experiment, I never expected that I would abandon a well established , supported and popular programming language like python for pharo. The plan was simple to "steal ideas" from pharo and port them to python on the premise that I would like several things that would be doable by one person. Then I discovered more and more things I liked that became complete insane to even imagine that I could port all these things to python. I certainly did not want to abandon the comfort of python and learn things from scratch but I was completely hooked with how amazing pharo is. So here I am, I only hope I do my very small part to push pharo forward, with my project Ephestos and small bug fixes here and there. Still long way to go to really understand pharo and its libraries but as you so wisely said step by step I am moving forward and that can only be a good thing.
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
>Thank you for Pharo …. > >I am following the development of Pharo since its fork from Squeak, and i am >really impressed what you crazy guys all have archived the last years. It all >evolved to really nice language, a fantastic nice looking live programming >environment, cool packages and a growing ecosystems. >I have so much fun using Pharo. Thank you. We all appreciate when Pharo is useful. But it is not yet finished (if it ever will) and you are welcome to help moving it forward as yet another crazy guy. Step by step it goes ... Bye Torsten
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
On 27 Dec 2013, at 11:17, Volkert Barr wrote: > Thank you for Pharo …. > > I am following the development of Pharo since its fork from Squeak, and i am > really impressed what you crazy guys all have archived the last years. It all > evolved to really nice language, a fantastic nice looking live programming > environment, cool packages and a growing ecosystems. I have so much fun > using Pharo. Thank you. > > 2011 i gave me a push to learn Pharo and last year i decided to do a small > research prototype with it. The goal is a tool to analyze and visualize > application landscapes. I have implemented a small repository model for the > different architecture levels, some data analytic rules on top the model, and > some model visualizations. For visualization i use Roassal/Mondrian. For > Data-In/-Export i use simply NeoCSV. Next year i plan to add more data > analytic rules, to add model transformation operations to "simulate" > landscape transformations (projects), and to use 3D visualizations with > Roassal3D (City Metaphor). If all works fine, we see what 2015 brings ... > > Pharo is really a productivity boost for me. If you are able to play around > with the objects in an interactive environment life is getting so much easier. Thanks a lot for this mail :-) Marcus
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
VB>> Thank you for Pharo …. I'd like to add my voice to this. I've been away from Pharo for several months, although I kept reading the lists. The amount of stuff happening since before 2.0 was finalized is just amazing. VB>> - 64 Bit VM and MultiCore Support SD> first we will really integrate all the work of eliot. This too is important to me. I've found multi-arch in debian sid (amd64) to be broken at best, which leaves me with just an old notebook (sid i386) to run Pharo on. Or full-blown i386 virtual machines, which is also far from ideal. Beyond that, considering its history I like to think of Smalltalk as inherently multi-platform, and expect (long-term) Pharo to follow in those steps and be able to run on any system, any arch. (Yes, I'm aware of the limited resources of the team :) ) On a personal level, beyond debian/amd64 I'd love to be able to run it on (debian, openbsd) SPARC64... I'm afraid hacking the VM is beyond me at this point, but I'd like to help.
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
Thank you for your message. Thank you for your enthusiasm. And thank you for sticking with us. About your particular problem domain you could probably benefit from looking more closely into Moose ( http://www.moosetechnology.org/about/contact) which is a broader platform for software and data analysis built on top of Pharo, and Roassal is part of it. Cheers, Doru On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Volkert Barr wrote: > Thank you for Pharo …. > > I am following the development of Pharo since its fork from Squeak, and i > am really impressed what you crazy guys all have archived the last years. > It all evolved to really nice language, a fantastic nice looking live > programming environment, cool packages and a growing ecosystems. I have so > much fun using Pharo. Thank you. > > 2011 i gave me a push to learn Pharo and last year i decided to do a small > research prototype with it. The goal is a tool to analyze and visualize > application landscapes. I have implemented a small repository model for the > different architecture levels, some data analytic rules on top the model, > and some model visualizations. For visualization i use Roassal/Mondrian. > For Data-In/-Export i use simply NeoCSV. Next year i plan to add more data > analytic rules, to add model transformation operations to "simulate" > landscape transformations (projects), and to use 3D visualizations with > Roassal3D (City Metaphor). If all works fine, we see what 2015 brings ... > > Pharo is really a productivity boost for me. If you are able to play > around with the objects in an interactive environment life is getting so > much easier. > > My wishes for Pharo: > > - Some kind of "Pharo Capability Map". It is really hard to understand for > a newbie what Pharo is all supporting, what is planed for the future, what > the library names are, > - Stable Pharo 3.0 > - Roassal3D (Roassal is so col, one of the killer frameworks for > Pharo). > - More User Interface programming examples > - 64 Bit VM and MultiCore Support > > Thank you guys, and best wishes for 2014 > Volkert > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
Thanks! > Thank you for Pharo …. > > I am following the development of Pharo since its fork from Squeak, and i am > really impressed what you crazy guys all have archived the last years. It all > evolved to really nice language, a fantastic nice looking live programming > environment, cool packages and a growing ecosystems. I have so much fun > using Pharo. Thank you. > > 2011 i gave me a push to learn Pharo and last year i decided to do a small > research prototype with it. The goal is a tool to analyze and visualize > application landscapes. I have implemented a small repository model for the > different architecture levels, some data analytic rules on top the model, and > some model visualizations. For visualization i use Roassal/Mondrian. For > Data-In/-Export i use simply NeoCSV. Next year i plan to add more data > analytic rules, to add model transformation operations to "simulate" > landscape transformations (projects), and to use 3D visualizations with > Roassal3D (City Metaphor). If all works fine, we see what 2015 brings ... > > Pharo is really a productivity boost for me. If you are able to play around > with the objects in an interactive environment life is getting so much easier. > > My wishes for Pharo: > > - Some kind of "Pharo Capability Map". It is really hard to understand for a > newbie what Pharo is all supporting, we are working on a catalog but people should publish their project and describe them. But it will come > what is planed for the future, what the library names are, > - Stable Pharo 3.0 It is coming :) > - Roassal3D (Roassal is so col, one of the killer frameworks for Pharo). > - More User Interface programming examples We will start working on a long tutorial for Spec. > - 64 Bit VM and MultiCore Support first we will really integrate all the work of eliot. > > Thank you guys, and best wishes for 2014 you too. > Volkert > >
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
Thank you, Volkert, for these nice words, we really appreciate it. Looking forward to seeing/hearing more from you. Sven BTW, you have a nice signature quote ;-) On 27 Dec 2013, at 11:16, Volkert Barr wrote: > Thank you for Pharo …. > > I am following the development of Pharo since its fork from Squeak, and i am > really impressed what you crazy guys all have archived the last years. It all > evolved to really nice language, a fantastic nice looking live programming > environment, cool packages and a growing ecosystems. I have so much fun > using Pharo. Thank you. > > 2011 i gave me a push to learn Pharo and last year i decided to do a small > research prototype with it. The goal is a tool to analyze and visualize > application landscapes. I have implemented a small repository model for the > different architecture levels, some data analytic rules on top the model, and > some model visualizations. For visualization i use Roassal/Mondrian. For > Data-In/-Export i use simply NeoCSV. Next year i plan to add more data > analytic rules, to add model transformation operations to "simulate" > landscape transformations (projects), and to use 3D visualizations with > Roassal3D (City Metaphor). If all works fine, we see what 2015 brings ... > > Pharo is really a productivity boost for me. If you are able to play around > with the objects in an interactive environment life is getting so much easier. > > My wishes for Pharo: > > - Some kind of "Pharo Capability Map". It is really hard to understand for a > newbie what Pharo is all supporting, what is planed for the future, what the > library names are, > - Stable Pharo 3.0 > - Roassal3D (Roassal is so col, one of the killer frameworks for Pharo). > - More User Interface programming examples > - 64 Bit VM and MultiCore Support > > Thank you guys, and best wishes for 2014 > Volkert > >
Re: [Pharo-dev] Thank you for Pharo
Hi Volkert, > 2011 i gave me a push to learn Pharo and last year i decided to do a small > research prototype with it. The goal is a tool to analyze and visualize > application landscapes. I have implemented a small repository model for the > different architecture levels, some data analytic rules on top the model, and > some model visualizations. For visualization i use Roassal/Mondrian. For > Data-In/-Export i use simply NeoCSV. Next year i plan to add more data > analytic rules, to add model transformation operations to "simulate" > landscape transformations (projects), and to use 3D visualizations with > Roassal3D (City Metaphor). If all works fine, we see what 2015 brings … Do you have any screenshot you would like to share? Work in progress is fine. We will push Roassal 3d very very hard over the coming months. If you have some particular requests, feel free to tell us > Pharo is really a productivity boost for me. If you are able to play around > with the objects in an interactive environment life is getting so much easier. That is very true > - Roassal3D (Roassal is so col, one of the killer frameworks for Pharo). Thanks for your nice words! Best wishes! Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
