Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Hi Doru, Le 6 oct. 2014 à 23:33, Tudor Girba a écrit : Hi Christophe, We will start with adding the possibility of closing the last pane. It is unlikely that we will add closing of random panes in the inspector because the main purpose of those panes is to preserve the navigation path. For preserving inspectors on independent objects, we need another solution. I believe for this case, we could simply use a kind of a clipboard for objects that can be inspected at a later time. It may be an idea. I was just thinking on another possibility: if you want to keep the navigation history, just get a way to quickly identify valuable tabs and be able to navigate quickly between them. Maybe something like the star/unstar feature of GitHub. Anyway, the important thing to remember is that there is a need for a way to keep some objects that we would to inspect later, whatever the implementation is. Regards, Christophe. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Hello, Le 4 oct. 2014 à 11:51, Tudor Girba a écrit : Pharo needs a centralised way to manage tabs and windows, its a system heavily wait that is wrong solely based on GUIs. So this is not a GT issue, its more a Pharo issue. The problem with GT because is such a detailed tool it exposes this Pharo weakness a lot more than other tools. The GTInspector problem will be solved by adding the possibility for each last tab to close. Please, add these feature for all tabs (maybe not for the first one but it does not matter). I often need to hide/close intermediates tabs that are just there because they were needed for the navigation. At the end, I just want to keep inspectors on objects I want to look at. Regards, Christophe. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Hi Christophe, We will start with adding the possibility of closing the last pane. It is unlikely that we will add closing of random panes in the inspector because the main purpose of those panes is to preserve the navigation path. For preserving inspectors on independent objects, we need another solution. I believe for this case, we could simply use a kind of a clipboard for objects that can be inspected at a later time. Cheers, Doru On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Christophe Demarey christophe.dema...@inria.fr wrote: Hello, Le 4 oct. 2014 à 11:51, Tudor Girba a écrit : Pharo needs a centralised way to manage tabs and windows, its a system heavily wait that is wrong solely based on GUIs. So this is not a GT issue, its more a Pharo issue. The problem with GT because is such a detailed tool it exposes this Pharo weakness a lot more than other tools. The GTInspector problem will be solved by adding the possibility for each last tab to close. Please, add these feature for all tabs (maybe not for the first one but it does not matter). I often need to hide/close intermediates tabs that are just there because they were needed for the navigation. At the end, I just want to keep inspectors on objects I want to look at. Regards, Christophe. -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
On 06 Oct 2014, at 23:33, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: For preserving inspectors on independent objects, we need another solution. I believe for this case, we could simply use a kind of a clipboard for objects that can be inspected at a later time. Yes, I often use an ObjectClipboard global variable to do that manually...
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
kmo wrote: I've raised two issues on the GT playground: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14158/Navigation-buttons-icons-at-bottom-of-GT-playground-are-meaningless-unintuitive https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14157/Navigation-buttons-at-bottom-of-GT-playground-are-almost-invisible-in-default-theme When I first tried the playground I never even noticed the dots at the bottom of the window - they do not show up well in the default theme. - (they seem OK in the dark theme screenshots I've seen). Also, I think little dots are not intuitive. It would be better if you had video controller buttons or perhaps little outlined squares with page numbers in them. Dots on their own mean nothing. Perhaps when a new pane is added, its dot can flash a couple of times, to form a cognitive cause--effect link between dots and panes. Maybe this should only occur when going from 1 pane (which shows no dots) to 2 panes (which adds the bottom bar with dots). -ben
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Indeed. But just having a good contrast solves the problem quite well, I believe, because it is gets more easily noticeable. Cheers, Doru On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Ben Coman b...@openinworld.com wrote: kmo wrote: I've raised two issues on the GT playground: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14158/Navigation- buttons-icons-at-bottom-of-GT-playground-are-meaningless-unintuitive https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14157/Navigation- buttons-at-bottom-of-GT-playground-are-almost-invisible-in-default-theme When I first tried the playground I never even noticed the dots at the bottom of the window - they do not show up well in the default theme. - (they seem OK in the dark theme screenshots I've seen). Also, I think little dots are not intuitive. It would be better if you had video controller buttons or perhaps little outlined squares with page numbers in them. Dots on their own mean nothing. Perhaps when a new pane is added, its dot can flash a couple of times, to form a cognitive cause--effect link between dots and panes. Maybe this should only occur when going from 1 pane (which shows no dots) to 2 panes (which adds the bottom bar with dots). -ben -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
By video controls I meant /first, previous, next, last /buttons - but that's not a good idea now I think about it. I still think page numbers might be better than dots. But, as you say, I managed to use the dots so they can't be that bad, Still, I think the dots would look more obviously like navigation controls if they were embedded in a small sunken or raised panel. But perhaps as you suggest with more contrast in colour even that might not be necessary. I'm a bit more concerned about how easy it is to end up with lots of panes that are identical. For example, in the screenshots of smallInteger(42) in this thread. Every pane reads the same. Isn't that confusing? No doubt I'll get used to it, though. I don't like the idea of flashing the controls by the way - that seems very artificial to me. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/gt-issues-tp4782476p4782808.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Hi Phil, Sorry for the late reply. I cannot reproduce the stepping problem. Do you have a specific case? Run to here exists. It is a contextual action that depends on the cursor position. Hence, it is mapped in the context menu. Cheers, Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 11:07 PM, p...@highoctane.be p...@highoctane.be wrote: I'd say that it is not intuitive at first but the abilities of the GT inspector are really making up for any inconvenience. As for the GT debugger, I've been running in a couple of problems, namely that stepping when restarting hasn't been working properly after a couple times. Also, I miss the run to here option that was in the debuggers before. It looks like gone. Why? It is a common option in all languages. Phil On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Hi, Thanks for the feedback. Of course, they are not used anywhere else at this point just because the inspector is the first tool that was integrated into Pharo :). You say they are meaningless, but in fact you seem to have no problem with what they are and how they work. And you found it out by yourself. I agree that it is a different interface than anything else out there, but that is not a negative thing. Actually, we also tried other variations, but this was the one we stuck with, and most people seem to not have a problem with it. What do you mean by video controller buttons? And, you are right in that the contrast is not proper in the Pharo theme. This will change. In the meantime, here is how they look like in the WhitespaceTheme [image: Inline image 1] Is this better? Cheers, Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 1:15 PM, kmo vox...@gmail.com wrote: Well, one man's intuitive is another man's completely obscure. In the pharo context, the dots are a completely new navigation widget - used nowhere else - and their function is unclear. I think part of the problem is that the dots do not appear on any kind of obvious toolbar - they are more or less just dots on the bottom of the window. There is no visual cue that they have any function at all. They could be mere decoration. Just my two cents. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/gt-issues-tp4782476p4782557.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
If I understand correctly, you would want a way to close panes. Correct? Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano esteba...@gmail.com wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Hi, From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) - possibility of save/open - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up - possibility to change the title of the Playground - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) (did I miss any?) - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. Please, please, please ;-) +1 Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:20, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: If I understand correctly, you would want a way to close panes. Correct? Yes, I want to be able to go from the right window back to the left window: Sven Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano esteba...@gmail.com wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Hi, From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) - possibility of save/open - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up - possibility to change the title of the Playground - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) (did I miss any?) - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. Please, please, please ;-) +1 Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
yes managing tabs is essential I think for everyone. This is why I also asked for window groups. Personally I dont care exactly how you implement these, the goal , like Sven said, its all about controlling the amount of information that is show and the amount that is hidden but yet it can be easily unhidden. If the goal is achieved I think that would be a big bonus anyway even if the implementation is not ideal. Pharo needs a centralised way to manage tabs and windows, its a system heavily wait that is wrong solely based on GUIs. So this is not a GT issue, its more a Pharo issue. The problem with GT because is such a detailed tool it exposes this Pharo weakness a lot more than other tools. Other features missing are the refactoring tools of workspace, implementor of, senders of, references of, find etc. By the way dark theme works ok with GT tools as far I can see. Which is a big thumbs up from me. Also a feature I would ask is since you guys have been succesful into integration pillar into GT tools , why not offer documentation for GT tools as part of the GT tools ? Maybe not a detailed one if you dont have the time just a nice cheat sheat with shortcuts and how to use basic features. On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: If I understand correctly, you would want a way to close panes. Correct? Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano esteba...@gmail.com wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Hi, From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) - possibility of save/open - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up - possibility to change the title of the Playground - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) (did I miss any?) - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. Please, please, please ;-) +1 Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Ok. This is already on the roadmap, but opening an issue would not hurt :). Cheers, Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:20, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: If I understand correctly, you would want a way to close panes. Correct? Yes, I want to be able to go from the right window back to the left window: Sven Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano esteba...@gmail.com wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Hi, From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) - possibility of save/open - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up - possibility to change the title of the Playground - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) (did I miss any?) - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. Please, please, please ;-) +1 Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:36, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Ok. This is already on the roadmap, but opening an issue would not hurt :). Bitte: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14156/Add-a-way-to-get-GTPlayground-and-GTInspector-back-in-their-original-state-using-1-column Cheers, Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:20, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: If I understand correctly, you would want a way to close panes. Correct? Yes, I want to be able to go from the right window back to the left window: Screen Shot 2014-10-04 at 09.24.20.png Sven Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano esteba...@gmail.com wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Hi, From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) - possibility of save/open - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up - possibility to change the title of the Playground - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) (did I miss any?) - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. Please, please, please ;-) +1 Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
I've raised two issues on the GT playground: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14158/Navigation-buttons-icons-at-bottom-of-GT-playground-are-meaningless-unintuitive https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14157/Navigation-buttons-at-bottom-of-GT-playground-are-almost-invisible-in-default-theme When I first tried the playground I never even noticed the dots at the bottom of the window - they do not show up well in the default theme. - (they seem OK in the dark theme screenshots I've seen). Also, I think little dots are not intuitive. It would be better if you had video controller buttons or perhaps little outlined squares with page numbers in them. Dots on their own mean nothing. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/gt-issues-tp4782476p4782538.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Hi, On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:32 AM, kilon alios kilon.al...@gmail.com wrote: yes managing tabs is essential I think for everyone. This is why I also asked for window groups. The issue that Sven raised is not about windows, but about the panes in the inspector. Personally I dont care exactly how you implement these, the goal , like Sven said, its all about controlling the amount of information that is show and the amount that is hidden but yet it can be easily unhidden. If the goal is achieved I think that would be a big bonus anyway even if the implementation is not ideal. Pharo needs a centralised way to manage tabs and windows, its a system heavily wait that is wrong solely based on GUIs. So this is not a GT issue, its more a Pharo issue. The problem with GT because is such a detailed tool it exposes this Pharo weakness a lot more than other tools. The GTInspector problem will be solved by adding the possibility for each last tab to close. Other features missing are the refactoring tools of workspace, implementor of, senders of, references of, find etc. Refactoring are indeed not present, but the rest are there only via shortcuts. The menu entries will come as well. By the way dark theme works ok with GT tools as far I can see. Which is a big thumbs up from me. The icons do not work because the black is hardcoded. We need to change that. Also a feature I would ask is since you guys have been succesful into integration pillar into GT tools , why not offer documentation for GT tools as part of the GT tools ? Maybe not a detailed one if you dont have the time just a nice cheat sheat with shortcuts and how to use basic features. That will likely come as well in some way. Only the way is not yet decided. I would be happy if someone would like to experiment with integrating the Help system with Pillar. Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: If I understand correctly, you would want a way to close panes. Correct? Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano esteba...@gmail.com wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote: Hi, From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) - possibility of save/open - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up - possibility to change the title of the Playground - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) (did I miss any?) - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. Please, please, please ;-) +1 Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow -- www.tudorgirba.com Every thing has its own flow
Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues
Well, one man's intuitive is another man's completely obscure. In the pharo context, the dots are a completely new navigation widget - used nowhere else - and their function is unclear. I think part of the problem is that the dots do not appear on any kind of obvious toolbar - they are more or less just dots on the bottom of the window. There is no visual cue that they have any function at all. They could be mere decoration. Just my two cents. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/gt-issues-tp4782476p4782557.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
