Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
On Jun 1, 2010, at 10:42 PM, Jochen Riekhof wrote: > Hi... > > my first post here, so hello everyone! Welcome! > I started to play with Pharo for a few days now and I am really impressed. > The only thing I really miss from Squeak is the possibility to create > projects (Open... - morphic project - in Squeak)? Is this somehow possible > in Pharo? no :) you cannot anymore. We have not finished to curve it out and you trust us that if we remove it this is for good reasons. Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
Hi Stef... Thank you for the welcome and quick answer! > you cannot anymore. We have not finished to curve it out and you trust us > that if we remove it this is for good reasons. Sure I understand that cleanup is important to get a stable and maintainable platform. When I understand correctly this is one of the main goals of Pharo :-). However, regardless of implementation, the functionality delivered by projects is great. Are you planning something new in place of the old projects? (For example my current main tool for work is Intellij IDEA (Java) and one of it's great features is the possibility to define multiple tasks per project, each with an own set of open files, breakpoints etc. Also you can associate such a task with a version control change-set So you can switch contexts with a click and immediately continue working on a task where you left it). Ciao ...Jochen Am 01.06.2010 um 23:11 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: > > On Jun 1, 2010, at 10:42 PM, Jochen Riekhof wrote: > >> Hi... >> >> my first post here, so hello everyone! > > Welcome! > >> I started to play with Pharo for a few days now and I am really impressed. >> The only thing I really miss from Squeak is the possibility to create >> projects (Open... - morphic project - in Squeak)? Is this somehow possible >> in Pharo? > > no :) > you cannot anymore. We have not finished to curve it out and you trust us > that if we remove it this is for good reasons. > > Stef > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
+1 on missing projects. What is our plan to replace this functionality? Is the objection to the idea of projects in general, or just the Squeak implementation? I found it absolutely priceless to have a world for each task at hand - each set up for a particular logical task, but having access to all the classes in the system. Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2239563.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
On Jun 1, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Jochen Riekhof wrote: > Hi Stef... > > Thank you for the welcome and quick answer! > >> you cannot anymore. We have not finished to curve it out and you trust us >> that if we remove it this is for good reasons. > > Sure I understand that cleanup is important to get a stable and maintainable > platform. When I understand correctly this is one of the main goals of Pharo > :-). let us say it like that but the goals of pharo is really to not just have one smalltalk but reconsider a lot of decisions. So like in house renovation, right we are just removing the old carpets :) The key point at the end is what is the smalltalk inspired system that we want to use in the next 20 years. > However, regardless of implementation, the functionality delivered by > projects is great. Are you planning something new in place of the old > projects? like what because projects had so many facets: saving only one of the changeset and making sure that you lost your code? > (For example my current main tool for work is Intellij IDEA (Java) and one of > it's great features is the possibility to define multiple tasks per project, > each with an own set of open files, breakpoints etc. Also you can associate > such a task with a version control change-set So you can switch contexts > with a click and immediately continue working on a task where you left it). This is a different story :) We would be really interested in a well done IDEA like system. Now we do not have the ressources to do it but if somebody start small and we will be happy to integrate and support it. Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
> +1 on missing projects. to do what? > What is our plan to replace this functionality? which one exactly? > Is the objection to the > idea of projects in general, or just the Squeak implementation? I let you guess :) > I found it absolutely priceless to have a world for each task at hand - each > set up for a particular logical task, but having access to all the classes > in the system. well I spent so many hours trying to work with projects for doing demos and my botinc book that I can tell you that they can really kill you. Do you know for example that when you save a project, only the last changeset is saved with it. Then what happen if in another project you change the exact same method? since changes do not record changes themselves but just the fact that they was a change you can be in funny situation. Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
I have my different "projects" in different images. That works perfectly. Lukas On 2 June 2010 08:46, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> +1 on missing projects. > > to do what? > >> What is our plan to replace this functionality? > which one exactly? > >> Is the objection to the >> idea of projects in general, or just the Squeak implementation? > > I let you guess :) > >> I found it absolutely priceless to have a world for each task at hand - each >> set up for a particular logical task, but having access to all the classes >> in the system. > > well I spent so many hours trying to work with projects for doing demos and > my botinc book that I can tell you that they can really kill you. > > Do you know for example that when you save a project, only the last changeset > is saved > with it. Then what happen if in another project you change the exact same > method? > since changes do not record changes themselves but just the fact that they > was a change > you can be in funny situation. > > Stef > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
I was just going to say the same. I have tons of images. Just duplicate an image and you have a new project. No need for a brittle mechanism inside the image. Cheers, Adrian On Jun 2, 2010, at 08:50 , Lukas Renggli wrote: > I have my different "projects" in different images. That works perfectly. > > Lukas > > On 2 June 2010 08:46, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> +1 on missing projects. >> >> to do what? >> >>> What is our plan to replace this functionality? >> which one exactly? >> >>> Is the objection to the >>> idea of projects in general, or just the Squeak implementation? >> >> I let you guess :) >> >>> I found it absolutely priceless to have a world for each task at hand - each >>> set up for a particular logical task, but having access to all the classes >>> in the system. >> >> well I spent so many hours trying to work with projects for doing demos and >> my botinc book that I can tell you that they can really kill you. >> >> Do you know for example that when you save a project, only the last >> changeset is saved >> with it. Then what happen if in another project you change the exact same >> method? >> since changes do not record changes themselves but just the fact that they >> was a change >> you can be in funny situation. >> >> Stef >> ___ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > to do what? > which one exactly? > The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I am working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if I find a bug in the system that I want to fix - I want to move to another world, fix the bug, and move right back to my client world, with the windows exactly the way I left them. For my use case, saving projects doesn't come into play. Why not remove the save functionality, since that seems to be the objection everyone raises, and keep them as a workspace organization tool - in image only? Lukas Renggli wrote: > > I have my different "projects" in different images. That works perfectly. > For my workflow, this is too heavyweight. In my mind, that's like buying multiple separate computers to run different apps. Even though I am working on multiple tasks at once, they are not *that* different. For example, in my "fix a bug" task above, I want the fix to be in my working image (which is automatic in the projects solution), without having to load into all the other images I'm working on. One of the killer features of Squeak/Pharo to me is that the whole system is available to itself. If I start breaking the image into smaller task-based images, it feels like going back to applications and files - yuck! ;-) Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2240170.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
I guess a project in an image-based system is not always easily defined. What is a project exactly? Is it a morphic application, a seaside/AIDAWeb/Iliad based web app, a new framework, a shared component? Which part of the image needs to be "in the project"? Maybe I am wrong here but with the new package management system everyone can freely load and unload "projects" they want to work with/on from repositories like PharoSource uuuh SqueakSource :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2240239.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
Projects as described might be similar to Dolphin's IdeaSpace. For whatever reason, I never liked them very much, so I am not the best person to comment. What I found most effective was to have filters on browsers so they would show me only subsets of the image and were easily launched from a tool that was always available in my image. That said, I can see why one might would want to have different tools open for different tasks, and be able to easily move between them. I am not sure about the objections to Squeak projects, other than IIRC, they use SmartReferenceStream, which I find to be horrible in various respects. The output is verbose, layout conversions do not anticipate the needs of an end user nor of the developer trying to protect the end user from a walkback, and the conversion methods go in the wrong place (attached to the serializer instead of the class that changed). In a word, YUK!!! Bill From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Sean P. DeNigris [s...@clipperadams.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 9:58 AM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo? Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > to do what? > which one exactly? > The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I am working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if I find a bug in the system that I want to fix - I want to move to another world, fix the bug, and move right back to my client world, with the windows exactly the way I left them. For my use case, saving projects doesn't come into play. Why not remove the save functionality, since that seems to be the objection everyone raises, and keep them as a workspace organization tool - in image only? Lukas Renggli wrote: > > I have my different "projects" in different images. That works perfectly. > For my workflow, this is too heavyweight. In my mind, that's like buying multiple separate computers to run different apps. Even though I am working on multiple tasks at once, they are not *that* different. For example, in my "fix a bug" task above, I want the fix to be in my working image (which is automatic in the projects solution), without having to load into all the other images I'm working on. One of the killer features of Squeak/Pharo to me is that the whole system is available to itself. If I start breaking the image into smaller task-based images, it feels like going back to applications and files - yuck! ;-) Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2240170.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
I think you are missing the OP's point. The goal (unless I am missing something) is to have a way to open say four browsers on specific classes and methods and maybe a workspace or two to work on one particular project/task, and to do the same for other tasks. All of this stuff would remain readily accessible with a high-level "table of contents" that allows on to enter a task, change something, and then switch to another task. My argument against this would be that it seems potentially memory hungry and perhaps sluggish due to all of the potentially invisible tools' updating themselves on various events, but if we ignore it in our images, we won't suffer much. I agree that doing this with separate images is a step backward. Bill From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Geert Claes [geert.wl.cl...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 10:38 AM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo? I guess a project in an image-based system is not always easily defined. What is a project exactly? Is it a morphic application, a seaside/AIDAWeb/Iliad based web app, a new framework, a shared component? Which part of the image needs to be "in the project"? Maybe I am wrong here but with the new package management system everyone can freely load and unload "projects" they want to work with/on from repositories like PharoSource uuuh SqueakSource :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2240239.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
> The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I am > working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one > world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if I... Yep, thank you Sean - this more or less nails it. Squeak projects are what comes closest to what i need to be able to quickly change context. It is perfectly ok to have them just in the image without any possibility for load/save. As for the IDEA comparison I raised, there is a big difference in my work style when switching tasks in IDEA/Java and Smalltalk. My impression is that for one this is because in Smalltalk you "live" inside your objects (image) while in Java you mostly have the edit-compile cycle. Also, traditional Smalltalk Browsers show you just one small piece of code (method) at a time while in file oriented environments you think in Files and scroll to get to a method. So what I do in Smalltalk is placing a couple of Browsers, workspaces and often also instances of the developed objects (!). Switching context means to destroy all this setup, and manually build another one. Switching bask, I have to redo all this for my former setup. (I could imagine that all this is a bit less of an issue in web development but I have too little Smalltalk experience here). > Projects as described might be similar to Dolphin's IdeaSpace. For whatever > reason, I never liked them very much, so I am not the best person to comment. I share with Bill that I never use IdeaSpaces in Dolphin. However, IdeaSpaces are very different from Squeak projects as they just allow you to group browsers and workspaces with tabs which does (IMHO) not match Smalltalk work style for above reasons and I would not need a similar tool in Pharo. To summarize, I would be perfectly happy with a streamlined projects implementation that just gives you different view to dive into without any need to save them outside the present image. Ciao ...Jochen Am 02.06.2010 um 15:58 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris: > > > Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >> to do what? >> which one exactly? >> > > The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I am > working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one > world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if I > find a bug in the system that I want to fix - I want to move to another > world, fix the bug, and move right back to my client world, with the windows > exactly the way I left them. > > For my use case, saving projects doesn't come into play. Why not remove the > save functionality, since that seems to be the objection everyone raises, > and keep them as a workspace organization tool - in image only? > > > Lukas Renggli wrote: >> >> I have my different "projects" in different images. That works perfectly. >> > > For my workflow, this is too heavyweight. In my mind, that's like buying > multiple separate computers to run different apps. Even though I am working > on multiple tasks at once, they are not *that* different. For example, in > my "fix a bug" task above, I want the fix to be in my working image (which > is automatic in the projects solution), without having to load into all the > other images I'm working on. > > One of the killer features of Squeak/Pharo to me is that the whole system is > available to itself. If I start breaking the image into smaller task-based > images, it feels like going back to applications and files - yuck! ;-) > > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2240170.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
> >> Projects as described might be similar to Dolphin's IdeaSpace. For whatever >> reason, I never liked them very much, so I am not the best person to >> comment. > > I share with Bill that I never use IdeaSpaces in Dolphin. However, IdeaSpaces > are very different from Squeak projects as they just allow you to group > browsers and workspaces with tabs which does (IMHO) not match Smalltalk work > style for above reasons and I would not need a similar tool in Pharo. > > To summarize, I would be perfectly happy with a streamlined projects > implementation that just gives you different view to dive into without any > need to save them outside the present image. build a small prototype if you can and you can really influence us :) But we will not load project code in pharo that 100% sure :) > > > Ciao > > ...Jochen > > Am 02.06.2010 um 15:58 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris: > >> >> >> Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>> to do what? >>> which one exactly? >>> >> >> The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I am >> working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one >> world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if I >> find a bug in the system that I want to fix - I want to move to another >> world, fix the bug, and move right back to my client world, with the windows >> exactly the way I left them. >> >> For my use case, saving projects doesn't come into play. Why not remove the >> save functionality, since that seems to be the objection everyone raises, >> and keep them as a workspace organization tool - in image only? >> >> >> Lukas Renggli wrote: >>> >>> I have my different "projects" in different images. That works perfectly. >>> >> >> For my workflow, this is too heavyweight. In my mind, that's like buying >> multiple separate computers to run different apps. Even though I am working >> on multiple tasks at once, they are not *that* different. For example, in >> my "fix a bug" task above, I want the fix to be in my working image (which >> is automatic in the projects solution), without having to load into all the >> other images I'm working on. >> >> One of the killer features of Squeak/Pharo to me is that the whole system is >> available to itself. If I start breaking the image into smaller task-based >> images, it feels like going back to applications and files - yuck! ;-) >> >> Sean >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2240170.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> ___ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
On 6/2/2010 3:30 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: I was just going to say the same. I have tons of images. Just duplicate an image and you have a new project. No need for a brittle mechanism inside the image. Cheers, Adrian Same here, images are projects. I never liked the squeak project mechanism. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
> > 2010/6/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K > I think you are missing the OP's point. The goal (unless I am missing > something) is to have a way to open say four browsers on specific classes > and methods and maybe a workspace or two to work on one particular > project/task, and to do the same for other tasks. > In past I used projects like you. I have many tasks and used separate project for each. I have many morphs opened in different projects (for data diagrams, image processing, animation and others, not only browsers and workspaces). It's really very suitable for development, learning and usage ready appications. I try used separate images for each task. But with this approach I must update any system package in all images I used. I think multiple worlds system will be very attractive for users. Maybe its implementation not difficult. And it will be more powerfull than Dolphin IdeaSpaces and java IDE's analogous. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
+1 Images are projects, I'm agree with that. But having multiple worlds is like having a multiple desktop layout. Why are them in Mac and Linux? Because it's useful. Cheers, Mariano. 2010/6/2 Denis Kudriashov > 2010/6/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K >> >> I think you are missing the OP's point. The goal (unless I am missing >> something) is to have a way to open say four browsers on specific classes >> and methods and maybe a workspace or two to work on one particular >> project/task, and to do the same for other tasks. >> > > In past I used projects like you. I have many tasks and used separate > project for each. I have many morphs opened in different projects (for data > diagrams, image processing, animation and others, not only browsers and > workspaces). It's really very suitable for development, learning and usage > ready appications. > I try used separate images for each task. But with this approach I must > update any system package in all images I used. > > I think multiple worlds system will be very attractive for users. Maybe its > implementation not difficult. And it will be more powerfull than Dolphin > IdeaSpaces and java IDE's analogous. > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
hehe, I never use Spaces in OS X. They don't work for me (often, windows open in the wrong space and hence I quickly mess up and it just gets annoying because I don't find what I am looking for). Instead, I use multiple machines! just kidding ;) cu on Saturday at the sprint, Adrian On Jun 2, 2010, at 21:45 , Mariano Abel Coca wrote: > +1 > > Images are projects, I'm agree with that. But having multiple worlds is like > having a multiple desktop layout. Why are them in Mac and Linux? Because > it's useful. > > Cheers, > > Mariano. > > > 2010/6/2 Denis Kudriashov > >> 2010/6/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K >>> >>> I think you are missing the OP's point. The goal (unless I am missing >>> something) is to have a way to open say four browsers on specific classes >>> and methods and maybe a workspace or two to work on one particular >>> project/task, and to do the same for other tasks. >>> >> >> In past I used projects like you. I have many tasks and used separate >> project for each. I have many morphs opened in different projects (for data >> diagrams, image processing, animation and others, not only browsers and >> workspaces). It's really very suitable for development, learning and usage >> ready appications. >> I try used separate images for each task. But with this approach I must >> update any system package in all images I used. >> >> I think multiple worlds system will be very attractive for users. Maybe its >> implementation not difficult. And it will be more powerfull than Dolphin >> IdeaSpaces and java IDE's analogous. >> ___ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
I have never been able to distinguish my workplace from home. I therefore have just one place, where I both live and work. Instead, I frequently change countries. Just (half) kidding ;-) Cheers, Alexandre On 2 Jun 2010, at 15:54, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > hehe, I never use Spaces in OS X. They don't work for me (often, windows open > in the wrong space and hence I quickly mess up and it just gets annoying > because I don't find what I am looking for). > > Instead, I use multiple machines! > > just kidding ;) > > cu on Saturday at the sprint, > Adrian > > > On Jun 2, 2010, at 21:45 , Mariano Abel Coca wrote: > >> +1 >> >> Images are projects, I'm agree with that. But having multiple worlds is like >> having a multiple desktop layout. Why are them in Mac and Linux? Because >> it's useful. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mariano. >> >> >> 2010/6/2 Denis Kudriashov >> >>> 2010/6/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K I think you are missing the OP's point. The goal (unless I am missing something) is to have a way to open say four browsers on specific classes and methods and maybe a workspace or two to work on one particular project/task, and to do the same for other tasks. >>> >>> In past I used projects like you. I have many tasks and used separate >>> project for each. I have many morphs opened in different projects (for data >>> diagrams, image processing, animation and others, not only browsers and >>> workspaces). It's really very suitable for development, learning and usage >>> ready appications. >>> I try used separate images for each task. But with this approach I must >>> update any system package in all images I used. >>> >>> I think multiple worlds system will be very attractive for users. Maybe its >>> implementation not difficult. And it will be more powerfull than Dolphin >>> IdeaSpaces and java IDE's analogous. >>> ___ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> ___ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
Jochen Riekhof wrote: > >> The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I am >> working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one >> world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if >> I... > > Yep, thank you Sean - this more or less nails it. Squeak projects are what > comes closest to what i need to be able to quickly change context. It is > perfectly ok to have them just in the image without any possibility for > load/save. > > ... > > To summarize, I would be perfectly happy with a streamlined projects > implementation that just gives you different view to dive into without any > need to save them outside the present image. > Seems like most people agree here that the image is your project. Something that "just gives you a different view" within your live image is not really what I would call a project and calling it that only adds to the confusion. It does sound like there is a group (not everyone has the same work habbits) that really likes the concept of virtual desktops within an image; desks, spaces, workspaces Idea's are great and I like Stef's suggestion for someone to make a little prototype to see if/how they can fit in Pharo. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2241296.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
I think we should not reinvent the wheel in Pharo. I mean, Morphic is nice, although I would like to have native windows so that I can use my Mac expose features. But no, I have only one window. Then, I have something similar but implemented in Pharo using Mac + narrows. Then, you can have more than one workspace in the OS, why we need to implement the same in Pharo ? I also have tons of image, and each image (or more than one) for a project. Why don't you use your own OS virtual workspaces and spread you different images over the different workspaces? that's easier than Squeak Projects. And maybe faster and better supported. The ONLY problem is what people said about updating issues in all images. But, : - In Pharo we have a good package management system now (Metacello). If you use it correctly, you can define all your project dependencies (even working in a core or dev image). So you should be able to load your project in any image without any problem. - We release images quite frequently, much more than other dialects/languages. So...usually you don't have to wait too much to get a new image with the fixed issue. - How many times you find an issue that affects all your projects? I don't think this is very common. Usually, when I find a bug or a problem, is not "too" core in the sense that only affects me in a particular place, but not in all my other work. Cheers Mariano On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > > > Jochen Riekhof wrote: > > > >> The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I > am > >> working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one > >> world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if > >> I... > > > > Yep, thank you Sean - this more or less nails it. Squeak projects are > what > > comes closest to what i need to be able to quickly change context. It is > > perfectly ok to have them just in the image without any possibility for > > load/save. > > > > ... > > > > To summarize, I would be perfectly happy with a streamlined projects > > implementation that just gives you different view to dive into without > any > > need to save them outside the present image. > > > > Seems like most people agree here that the image is your project. > Something > that "just gives you a different view" within your live image is not really > what I would call a project and calling it that only adds to the confusion. > > It does sound like there is a group (not everyone has the same work > habbits) > that really likes the concept of virtual desktops within an image; desks, > spaces, workspaces > > Idea's are great and I like Stef's suggestion for someone to make a little > prototype to see if/how they can fit in Pharo. > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2241296.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > I think we should not reinvent the wheel in Pharo. I mean, Morphic is > nice, although I would like to have native windows so that I can use my > Mac expose features. But no, I have only one window. Then, I have > something similar but implemented in Pharo using Mac + narrows. > > Then, you can have more than one workspace in the OS, why we need to > implement the same in Pharo ? > > I also have tons of image, and each image (or more than one) for a > project. Why don't you use your own OS virtual workspaces and spread you > different images over the different workspaces? that's easier than Squeak > Projects. And maybe faster and better supported. > Agree mind you I don't use spaces :) Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > The ONLY problem is what people said about updating issues in all images. > But, : > > - In Pharo we have a good package management system now (Metacello). If > you use it correctly, you can define all your project dependencies (even > working in a core or dev image). So you should be able to load your > project in any image without any problem. > Yep, I already mentioned that in my first reply here -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2241332.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
Thanks for all the great feedback! It's great to discuss because it makes me think about what's really important and why... Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > I think we should not reinvent the wheel in Pharo. I mean, Morphic is > nice, > although I would like to have native windows so that I can use my Mac > expose > features. But no, I have only one window. > I secretly pray for a world where the OS/application paradigm disappears like T-rex in a meteor shower ;-) and I do a lot of cross-platform work (Windows and Mac mostly), so relying on OS features doesn't work for me. Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > Then, I have something similar but > implemented in Pharo using Mac + narrows. > Do you mean the window cycling within Pharo? That's not all that similar! It still has totally (logically) unrelated windows fighting for screen space. There's no way to bring up the *set* of windows related to task A, and then back to B. Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > I also have tons of image, and each image (or more than one) for a > project. > Why don't you use your own OS virtual workspaces and spread you different > images over the different workspaces? that's easier than Squeak Projects. > And maybe faster and better supported. > This seems to come down to vision and work habits. My vision is to use one image for everything, where all my data is available to all other data, and I can explore interesting relationships between (seemingly) unrelated bits. Using many images, to me, is a giant step back toward existing mainstream options. Plus, anything we do in Pharo is infinitely user customizable and fixable - not so with OS features. For example, I have exactly three options for the space-switching shortcut on the Mac - wow, thanks for all the options! Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > - In Pharo we have a good package management system now (Metacello). If > you > use it correctly, you can define all your project dependencies (even > working > in a core or dev image). So you should be able to load your project in any > image without any problem. > Yes, definitely! Metacello is great for sharing and deploying, but again, using one system for everything is one of the key reasons I came to the Squeak/Pharo world - if I wanted everything separate, there is Mac software for each task that probably (due to maturity and market) does each better. Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > - We release images quite frequently, much more than other > dialects/languages. So...usually you don't have to wait too much to get a > new image with the fixed issue. > [gasp] complain and wait until my issue is fixed!!! I can't imagine it ;-) When I find an issue, if I can, I fix it myself and move on with my work. Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > - How many times you find an issue that affects all your projects? I > don't > think this is very common. Usually, when I find a bug or a problem, is not > "too" core in the sense that only affects me in a particular place, but > not > in all my other work. > Often enough with the tools. Two quick examples: * while using SSpec, I've found and fixed various bugs, e.g. in the test runner, which effected all the projects I'm working on simultaneously. I didn't want to stop what I was doing, upload the project, write a Metacello configuration for it, and install it in X other images, and I didn't have to because I only had one image. * while working with the monticello browser, every time I wanted to add a "directory" repository (which I do frequently), I had to start searching from the default directory, even though all my repos are in the same parent folder. So I added a setting for it and kept working. Summary: For me, the separate image approach is a hack to simulate a missing feature, with tradeoffs that don't work for the way I do. Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-I-use-Projects-in-Pharo-tp2239170p2241621.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
On 3 June 2010 10:24, Geert Claes wrote: > > > Jochen Riekhof wrote: >> >>> The only thing I use projects for is to separate the different tasks I am >>> working on at the same time (like spaces on the Mac), so I can have one >>> world where I'm working on a client project, and a whole other world if >>> I... >> >> Yep, thank you Sean - this more or less nails it. Squeak projects are what >> comes closest to what i need to be able to quickly change context. It is >> perfectly ok to have them just in the image without any possibility for >> load/save. >> >> ... >> >> To summarize, I would be perfectly happy with a streamlined projects >> implementation that just gives you different view to dive into without any >> need to save them outside the present image. >> > > Seems like most people agree here that the image is your project. Something > that "just gives you a different view" within your live image is not really > what I would call a project and calling it that only adds to the confusion. > +1 when i first run the squeak image, and found the projects, i thought, that i could write the code and break anything in one project, and then return to another one, and everything will work as if nothing happens. Bummer. As i understood, this is a 'morphic projects' - i.e. the separate morphic world where you could place the morphs and arrange them in any way you like. But the thing is, that in such form its not very userful to me , because in my understanding, the project is something more than just being able to save the position & placement of various morphs on desktop. Using a projects in a fashion like multiple morphic desktops is might be a userful, but then, its naming is too vagure/ambiguous. I think it should be renamed to MorphicProject, because as i noted before, if something having a 'Project' name, then it should provide the way how i could completely separate one project from another one :) Just my 2c. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo?
Lukas, I am glad that it works for you, but it strikes me as a very poor approach. I prefer to have all of my code in one place so that additions and fixes apply to and can be tested with everything of interest to me. That said, I can easily leave w/o Squeak projects, especially given how buggy Stef has found them to be. Bill -Original Message- From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Lukas Renggli Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 1:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Can I use Projects in Pharo? I have my different "projects" in different images. That works perfectly. Lukas On 2 June 2010 08:46, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> +1 on missing projects. > > to do what? > >> What is our plan to replace this functionality? > which one exactly? > >> Is the objection to the >> idea of projects in general, or just the Squeak implementation? > > I let you guess :) > >> I found it absolutely priceless to have a world for each task at hand >> - each set up for a particular logical task, but having access to all >> the classes in the system. > > well I spent so many hours trying to work with projects for doing > demos and my botinc book that I can tell you that they can really kill you. > > Do you know for example that when you save a project, only the last > changeset is saved with it. Then what happen if in another project you change > the exact same method? > since changes do not record changes themselves but just the fact that > they was a change you can be in funny situation. > > Stef > ___ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
