Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[stepharo]

the code should be in the image :)

Le 7/10/15 18:31, Werner Kassens a écrit :

Hi Peter,
the difference between the paper i mentioned (JASE-completion) and 
ASE2008-completion (both accessible) is, i think, that in the first 
one also the  class-level code completion of ocompletion is explained. 
(i think that part was later added to ocompletion or so)

werner

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Werner Kassens]

On 10/10/2015 09:50 AM, stepharo wrote:

the code should be in the image :)


Hi Stephane,
of course. but sometimes i only discover some nice pharo code by reading 
a paper. i discovered ocompletion in the image only after having read 
that paper mentioned by Peter, and - thinking "yes, that should work" - 
after trying out ocompletion i noticed that it is indeed better than the 
default setting .

werner

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Marcus Denker]

> On 06 Oct 2015, at 21:20, Peter Uhnák  wrote:
> 
> > (did you know, that there is a shortcut to jump from one message send 
> > argument to another (not related to completion, but very helpful). Sadly 
> > this is gone or I couldn't find it in rubrics shortcut handling).
> 
> maybe this is related to Settings > Code Browsing > AST navigation? (I've 
> never actually tried to use this.)
> 

We never used it as we could not use a good key-combination (ctr-arrow keys) 
due to the VM…

Now I think it is not in the new editor.

We should revisit that: I still like the idea to do navigation by AST structure 
instead of text.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Werner Kassens]

just fwiw, i looked at http://www.squeaksource.com/OCompletion/ and 
there was a paper about ocompletion mentioned, but the access to this 
paper was forbidden - at least for me. but at 
http://users.dcc.uchile.cl/~rrobbes/p/JASE-completion.pdf there is a 
paper about ocompletion by the same author that explains ocompletion and 
with that paper ocompletion is easily understandable.

werner

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Peter Uhnák]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Werner Kassens  wrote:

> just fwiw, i looked at http://www.squeaksource.com/OCompletion/ and there
> was a paper about ocompletion mentioned, but the access to this paper was
> forbidden - at least for me. but at
> http://users.dcc.uchile.cl/~rrobbes/p/JASE-completion.pdf there is a
> paper about ocompletion by the same author that explains ocompletion and
> with that paper ocompletion is easily understandable.
> werner
>
>
This is different paper, I've posted accessible link earlier:

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:

>
> I'm currently going through
> http://users.dcc.uchile.cl/~rrobbes/p/ASE2008-completion.pdf and
> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10515-010-0064-x (dunno if
> there's non-paywalled link) to get better idea of how it works... and I
> can already see why there's limited progress :)
>

But your link provides access to the other (paywalled) paper. :)

Peter

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Werner Kassens]

thanks Peter
werner

On 10/07/2015 05:28 PM, Peter Uhnák wrote:

This is different paper, I've posted accessible link earlier:

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Peter Uhnák > wrote:


I'm currently going through
http://users.dcc.uchile.cl/~rrobbes/p/ASE2008-completion.pdf and
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10515-010-0064-x (dunno if
there's non-paywalled link) to get better idea of how it works...
and I can already see why there's limited progress :)


But your link provides access to the other (paywalled) paper. :)

Peter

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Werner Kassens]

Hi Peter,
the difference between the paper i mentioned (JASE-completion) and 
ASE2008-completion (both accessible) is, i think, that in the first one 
also the  class-level code completion of ocompletion is explained. (i 
think that part was later added to ocompletion or so)

werner

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Peter Uhnák]

> (did you know, that there is a shortcut to jump from one message send
argument to another (not related to completion, but very helpful). Sadly
this is gone or I couldn't find it in rubrics shortcut handling).

maybe this is related to Settings > Code Browsing > AST navigation? (I've
never actually tried to use this.)

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 8:00 PM, stepharo  wrote:

> About an alternative way to do code completion:
>
> This is the paper: http://macbeth.cs.ucdavis.edu/cacheca.pdf
> this is the code repository: https://github.com/christinef/CACHECA
> and this is the tool in action:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3INk0N3JNtc
>
> This was the student I was in contact with.
>
> Stef
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[stepharo]

In fact NOC is the code of romain robbes (we took the best version that 
he described in his phd)

Now the code needs some love.

Stef

Le 6/10/15 15:53, Nicolai Hess a écrit :



2015-10-06 15:28 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano >:




On 06 Oct 2015, at 15:23, Nicolai Hess > wrote:



2015-10-06 13:46 GMT+02:00 Henrik Johansen
>:



On 06 Oct 2015, at 1:33 , Nicolai Hess > wrote:



2015-10-06 11:57 GMT+02:00 Werner Kassens
>:

On 10/06/2015 09:09 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:

 > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I
will start typing
Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of
answers...

I think this is difficult, even though this classes
are big and you
don't use most of the methods,


Hi Nicolai,
imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer
wins, if the user mostly uses the first few proposals.
perhaps one could program several different heuristics,
that decide, what the user wants. depending on the user
choices, the weights for these heuristics get updated
accordingly and then the choices get sorted with those
weights. this way the code-completion could adapt to the
way each user works?



Yes this would be nice, but it is not an easy task.

werner




I thought we already had something like that...
http://www.squeaksource.com/OCompletion/


I can not load it in a recen pharo image.
Is it used in recent versions of squeak?


OCompletion is already in the image (since Pharo 2.0).
if you check your settings, under "Code Completion”, Controller…
it should say NOCController.


Funny, I always thought the NOC-Classes are some kind of "Old" 
NEC-Classes.


Is a lot better than older NECController, but still far from good
enough.


Some more information on this? What is missing.


Esteban





Cheers,
Henry

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Nicolai Hess]

Am 04.10.2015 23:53 schrieb "Peter Uhnák" :
>
> This is both rant and list of questions/notes/observations...
>
> ...but first of all:
> do Smalltalkers not like code completion? Because the one in Pharo is
really poor and not only that nobody is doing anything about it, but also
nobody is complaining; this leads me to believe that you either
>
> a) don't have the manpower (this is true pretty much always, so no
complaints here)
> b) don't care about this that much (since you lived without it for 45
years)
>
> at least from the lack of complaining to me it seems that b) is more
likely scenario...
>
> But since I do use it, I get annoyed by it quite a bit, especially since
I regularly work in IDEs where this thousand times better.


Can you Name one, for a dynamic OO -  language?
(Maybe we can borrow some ideas).


>
> Now I would like to get things moving a bit (or bury it and forget it),
so I have couple of questions and would appreciate if someone could provide
some feedback.
>
> 1. Methods of core/top classes should be deprioritized
>
> Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...

I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you don't
use most of the methods,

are you sure we dont use some of the methods  *often*.  Morphic,
ComposeableModel or many collection classes, for example.

>
> so let's start typing...
>
>
>
>
>
> Very often I have to type almost full word to see what I want.

This is doesn't happen often to me. It is far from perfect but most of the
time I only type a small part and find the correct completion.


> Shouldn't the completion follow the inheritance chain? So first it shows
me matches from the class itself (especially since it actually knows the
type) and only after then it's parents and so on?

Currently, it only collects all selectors into  a set and sorts by matching
and length.

We could add the class info and sort by inheritance distance.

This needs some change how sorting is implemented, for now,it is typeless
and may need some double dispatching.


>
> 3. Or maybe even show the (closest) class that implements it.
> So the last two items would have somewhere (beginning or the end) written
'(Object)' and the first two '(yourself)' (or the class's name).

This needs some additional work too, now the menu text  is the actual
completion content. But it

shouldn't be that difficult and some code looks like it was intended to
work that way.

>
>
> 2. The window has fixed size, so if I have longer method (as in picture
above) I don't see it all.
>
> 3. Is middle-of-the word really that often used? See
moseInterengEntity above. It feels to me that it just creates a lot of
false positives (I have this problem also with inspector btw, so I often
have to prefix it with >># or if I see it already lot of ,
which is annoying)

I often search for "Dictionary" or "Morph" and expect results even if the
typed word is not at the beginning, quite often.


>
>
>
> 4. We write tests, however how often have you manually created an
instance of a test class by hand? I think they should be either filtered or
deprioritized as they create visual clutter. This is probably also true for
many other classes such as ConfigurationOf/Manifest/... Nobody instantiates
them by hand.

Be careful will statements like "nobody "

I do a lot of reviews for pharo issues, and this involves working in
workspace and instantiating classes  (Yes, Tests, Refactoring, LintRules)
most people don't use them this way but by the tools (SUnit, CriticBrowser)

But I do.



>
> 5. How often do you send #abs to a dictionary?

seldom, never? but how could a completion framework detect that?


>
>
> 6. If I have already written part of the selector it's impossible to
"continue" and add an extra parameter. This is because it doesn't know if I
am code completing for dict, or #key.
> Maybe different shortcuts?  to code complete on #key, and
 to code complete on the previous one...

good idea!

(did you know, that there is a shortcut to jump from one message send
argument to another (not related to completion, but very helpful). Sadly
this is gone or I couldn't find

it in rubrics shortcut handling).

> or maybe cycle through them because this can be nested (the currently
code completed item would have to be highlighted somehow).
>
>
> 7. So if I don't want to see the above I have to type it manually; which
is fine for #at:put: but not for longer words.. (just to find out ten
seconds later that I have a stupid typo there).
>
> 8. The code completion doesn't show parameter names. This is very helpful
because it often reveals what it actually accepts. Now I have to actually
look into the code of the method.

Yes, I tried to change that for issue "10219

Completion: enter on accept awkwardness", but again, the completion only
knows 

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Stephan Eggermont]

On 04-10-15 23:53, Peter Uhnák wrote:

3. Is middle-of-the word really that often used? See
moseInterengEntity above. It feels to me that it just creates a lot of
false positives (I have this problem also with inspector btw, so I often
have to prefix it with >># or if I see it already lot of ,
which is annoying)


One of the things we can do is detect prefixes. If all classes in a 
package start with the same two letters...


Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Well I tried to understand how NECompletion works , after a month of
reading and rereading code still could not figure out how it works. I
understood the basics, but the details were so difficult to really track
down. Its very spagetified, a usual pharo issue, and of course
undocumented. I decided to move to things that I could be more productive
with. This is an area that requires the touch of a Pharo expert.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 10:21 PM Peter Uhnák  wrote:

> > (did you know, that there is a shortcut to jump from one message send
> argument to another (not related to completion, but very helpful). Sadly
> this is gone or I couldn't find it in rubrics shortcut handling).
>
> maybe this is related to Settings > Code Browsing > AST navigation? (I've
> never actually tried to use this.)
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 8:00 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>
>> About an alternative way to do code completion:
>>
>> This is the paper: http://macbeth.cs.ucdavis.edu/cacheca.pdf
>> this is the code repository: https://github.com/christinef/CACHECA
>> and this is the tool in action:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3INk0N3JNtc
>>
>> This was the student I was in contact with.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Yuriy Tymchuk]

> On 06 Oct 2015, at 09:09, Nicolai Hess  wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 04.10.2015 23:53 schrieb "Peter Uhnák"  >:
> >
> > This is both rant and list of questions/notes/observations...
> >
> > ...but first of all:
> > do Smalltalkers not like code completion? Because the one in Pharo is 
> > really poor and not only that nobody is doing anything about it, but also 
> > nobody is complaining; this leads me to believe that you either
> >
> > a) don't have the manpower (this is true pretty much always, so no 
> > complaints here)
> > b) don't care about this that much (since you lived without it for 45 years)
> >
> > at least from the lack of complaining to me it seems that b) is more likely 
> > scenario...
> >
> > But since I do use it, I get annoyed by it quite a bit, especially since I 
> > regularly work in IDEs where this thousand times better.
> 
> 
> Can you Name one, for a dynamic OO -  language?
> (Maybe we can borrow some ideas).
> 
> 

Ruby?

I think that RubyMine has to do something with code completion.

Uko

> 
> >
> > Now I would like to get things moving a bit (or bury it and forget it), so 
> > I have couple of questions and would appreciate if someone could provide 
> > some feedback.
> >
> > 1. Methods of core/top classes should be deprioritized
> >
> > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing 
> > Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...
> 
> I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you don't use 
> most of the methods, 
> 
> are you sure we dont use some of the methods  *often*.  Morphic, 
> ComposeableModel or many collection classes, for example.
> 
> >
> > so let's start typing...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Very often I have to type almost full word to see what I want.
> 
> This is doesn't happen often to me. It is far from perfect but most of the 
> time I only type a small part and find the correct completion.
> 
> 
> > Shouldn't the completion follow the inheritance chain? So first it shows me 
> > matches from the class itself (especially since it actually knows the type) 
> > and only after then it's parents and so on?
> 
> Currently, it only collects all selectors into  a set and sorts by matching 
> and length. 
> 
> We could add the class info and sort by inheritance distance.
> 
> This needs some change how sorting is implemented, for now,it is typeless and 
> may need some double dispatching.
> 
> 
> >
> > 3. Or maybe even show the (closest) class that implements it.
> > So the last two items would have somewhere (beginning or the end) written 
> > '(Object)' and the first two '(yourself)' (or the class's name).
> 
> This needs some additional work too, now the menu text  is the actual 
> completion content. But it
> 
> shouldn't be that difficult and some code looks like it was intended to work 
> that way.
> 
> >
> >
> > 2. The window has fixed size, so if I have longer method (as in picture 
> > above) I don't see it all.
> >
> > 3. Is middle-of-the word really that often used? See 
> > moseInterengEntity above. It feels to me that it just creates a lot of 
> > false positives (I have this problem also with inspector btw, so I often 
> > have to prefix it with >># or if I see it already lot of , 
> > which is annoying)
> 
> I often search for "Dictionary" or "Morph" and expect results even if the 
> typed word is not at the beginning, quite often.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > 4. We write tests, however how often have you manually created an instance 
> > of a test class by hand? I think they should be either filtered or 
> > deprioritized as they create visual clutter. This is probably also true for 
> > many other classes such as ConfigurationOf/Manifest/... Nobody instantiates 
> > them by hand.
> 
> Be careful will statements like "nobody "
> 
> I do a lot of reviews for pharo issues, and this involves working in 
> workspace and instantiating classes  (Yes, Tests, Refactoring, LintRules) 
> most people don't use them this way but by the tools (SUnit, CriticBrowser)
> 
> But I do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > 5. How often do you send #abs to a dictionary? 
> 
> seldom, never? but how could a completion framework detect that?
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > 6. If I have already written part of the selector it's impossible to 
> > "continue" and add an extra parameter. This is because it doesn't know if I 
> > am code completing for dict, or #key.
> > Maybe different shortcuts?  to code complete on #key, and  
> > to code complete on the previous one... 
> 
> good idea!
> 
> (did you know, that there is a shortcut to jump from one message send 
> argument to another (not related to completion, but very helpful). Sadly this 
> is gone or I couldn't find
> 
> it in rubrics shortcut handling).
> 
> > or maybe cycle through them because this can be nested (the currently code 
> > completed item would have to be highlighted somehow).
> >
> >
> > 7. So if I don't want 

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[stepharo]

About an alternative way to do code completion:

This is the paper: http://macbeth.cs.ucdavis.edu/cacheca.pdf
this is the code repository: https://github.com/christinef/CACHECA
and this is the tool in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3INk0N3JNtc

This was the student I was in contact with.

Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Werner Kassens]

On 10/06/2015 09:09 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:

 > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...

I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you
don't use most of the methods,



Hi Nicolai,
imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer wins, if the 
user mostly uses the first few proposals. perhaps one could program 
several different heuristics, that decide, what the user wants. 
depending on the user choices, the weights for these heuristics get 
updated accordingly and then the choices get sorted with those weights. 
this way the code-completion could adapt to the way each user works?

werner

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Nicolai Hess]

2015-10-06 10:31 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk :

>
> On 06 Oct 2015, at 09:09, Nicolai Hess  wrote:
>
>
> Am 04.10.2015 23:53 schrieb "Peter Uhnák" :
> >
> > This is both rant and list of questions/notes/observations...
> >
> > ...but first of all:
> > do Smalltalkers not like code completion? Because the one in Pharo is
> really poor and not only that nobody is doing anything about it, but also
> nobody is complaining; this leads me to believe that you either
> >
> > a) don't have the manpower (this is true pretty much always, so no
> complaints here)
> > b) don't care about this that much (since you lived without it for 45
> years)
> >
> > at least from the lack of complaining to me it seems that b) is more
> likely scenario...
> >
> > But since I do use it, I get annoyed by it quite a bit, especially since
> I regularly work in IDEs where this thousand times better.
>
>
> Can you Name one, for a dynamic OO -  language?
> (Maybe we can borrow some ideas).
>
>
> Ruby?
>
> I think that RubyMine has to do something with code completion.
>

Wow, that looks great, do you work with it?


>
> Uko
>
>
> >
> > Now I would like to get things moving a bit (or bury it and forget it),
> so I have couple of questions and would appreciate if someone could provide
> some feedback.
> >
> > 1. Methods of core/top classes should be deprioritized
> >
> > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
> Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...
>
> I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you don't
> use most of the methods,
>
> are you sure we dont use some of the methods  *often*.  Morphic,
> ComposeableModel or many collection classes, for example.
>
> >
> > so let's start typing...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Very often I have to type almost full word to see what I want.
>
> This is doesn't happen often to me. It is far from perfect but most of the
> time I only type a small part and find the correct completion.
>
>
> > Shouldn't the completion follow the inheritance chain? So first it shows
> me matches from the class itself (especially since it actually knows the
> type) and only after then it's parents and so on?
>
> Currently, it only collects all selectors into  a set and sorts by
> matching and length.
>
> We could add the class info and sort by inheritance distance.
>
> This needs some change how sorting is implemented, for now,it is typeless
> and may need some double dispatching.
>
>
> >
> > 3. Or maybe even show the (closest) class that implements it.
> > So the last two items would have somewhere (beginning or the end)
> written '(Object)' and the first two '(yourself)' (or the class's name).
>
> This needs some additional work too, now the menu text  is the actual
> completion content. But it
>
> shouldn't be that difficult and some code looks like it was intended to
> work that way.
>
> >
> >
> > 2. The window has fixed size, so if I have longer method (as in picture
> above) I don't see it all.
> >
> > 3. Is middle-of-the word really that often used? See
> moseInterengEntity above. It feels to me that it just creates a lot of
> false positives (I have this problem also with inspector btw, so I often
> have to prefix it with >># or if I see it already lot of ,
> which is annoying)
>
> I often search for "Dictionary" or "Morph" and expect results even if the
> typed word is not at the beginning, quite often.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > 4. We write tests, however how often have you manually created an
> instance of a test class by hand? I think they should be either filtered or
> deprioritized as they create visual clutter. This is probably also true for
> many other classes such as ConfigurationOf/Manifest/... Nobody instantiates
> them by hand.
>
> Be careful will statements like "nobody "
>
> I do a lot of reviews for pharo issues, and this involves working in
> workspace and instantiating classes  (Yes, Tests, Refactoring, LintRules)
> most people don't use them this way but by the tools (SUnit, CriticBrowser)
>
> But I do.
>
>
>
> >
> > 5. How often do you send #abs to a dictionary?
>
> seldom, never? but how could a completion framework detect that?
>
>
> >
> >
> > 6. If I have already written part of the selector it's impossible to
> "continue" and add an extra parameter. This is because it doesn't know if I
> am code completing for dict, or #key.
> > Maybe different shortcuts?  to code complete on #key, and
>  to code complete on the previous one...
>
> good idea!
>
> (did you know, that there is a shortcut to jump from one message send
> argument to another (not related to completion, but very helpful). Sadly
> this is gone or I couldn't find
>
> it in rubrics shortcut handling).
>
> > or maybe cycle through them because this can be nested (the currently
> code completed item would have to be highlighted somehow).
> >
> >
> > 7. So if I don't want to see the above I have to type it 

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Nicolai Hess]

2015-10-06 13:46 GMT+02:00 Henrik Johansen :

>
> On 06 Oct 2015, at 1:33 , Nicolai Hess  wrote:
>
>
>
> 2015-10-06 11:57 GMT+02:00 Werner Kassens :
>
>> On 10/06/2015 09:09 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:
>>
>>>  > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
>>> Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...
>>>
>>> I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you
>>> don't use most of the methods,
>>>
>>>
>> Hi Nicolai,
>> imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer wins, if the user
>> mostly uses the first few proposals. perhaps one could program several
>> different heuristics, that decide, what the user wants. depending on the
>> user choices, the weights for these heuristics get updated accordingly and
>> then the choices get sorted with those weights. this way the
>> code-completion could adapt to the way each user works?
>>
>
>
> Yes this would be nice, but it is not an easy task.
>
>
>> werner
>>
>>
>
> I thought we already had something like that...
> http://www.squeaksource.com/OCompletion/
>

I can not load it in a recen pharo image.
Is it used in recent versions of squeak?



>
> Cheers,
> Henry
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Henrik Johansen]

> On 06 Oct 2015, at 1:33 , Nicolai Hess  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 2015-10-06 11:57 GMT+02:00 Werner Kassens  >:
> On 10/06/2015 09:09 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:
>  > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
> Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...
> 
> I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you
> don't use most of the methods,
> 
> 
> Hi Nicolai,
> imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer wins, if the user 
> mostly uses the first few proposals. perhaps one could program several 
> different heuristics, that decide, what the user wants. depending on the user 
> choices, the weights for these heuristics get updated accordingly and then 
> the choices get sorted with those weights. this way the code-completion could 
> adapt to the way each user works?
> 
> 
> Yes this would be nice, but it is not an easy task.
> 
> werner
> 
> 

I thought we already had something like that...
http://www.squeaksource.com/OCompletion/

Cheers,
Henry


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Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Nicolai Hess]

2015-10-06 15:28 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano :

>
> On 06 Oct 2015, at 15:23, Nicolai Hess  wrote:
>
>
>
> 2015-10-06 13:46 GMT+02:00 Henrik Johansen :
>
>>
>> On 06 Oct 2015, at 1:33 , Nicolai Hess  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-10-06 11:57 GMT+02:00 Werner Kassens :
>>
>>> On 10/06/2015 09:09 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:
>>>
  > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
 Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...

 I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you
 don't use most of the methods,


>>> Hi Nicolai,
>>> imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer wins, if the
>>> user mostly uses the first few proposals. perhaps one could program several
>>> different heuristics, that decide, what the user wants. depending on the
>>> user choices, the weights for these heuristics get updated accordingly and
>>> then the choices get sorted with those weights. this way the
>>> code-completion could adapt to the way each user works?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes this would be nice, but it is not an easy task.
>>
>>
>>> werner
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I thought we already had something like that...
>> http://www.squeaksource.com/OCompletion/
>>
>
> I can not load it in a recen pharo image.
> Is it used in recent versions of squeak?
>
>
> OCompletion is already in the image (since Pharo 2.0).
> if you check your settings, under "Code Completion”, Controller… it should
> say NOCController.
>

Funny, I always thought the NOC-Classes are some kind of "Old" NEC-Classes.


> Is a lot better than older NECController, but still far from good enough.
>

Some more information on this? What is missing.



>
> Esteban
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Henry
>>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Nicolai Hess]

2015-10-06 11:57 GMT+02:00 Werner Kassens :

> On 10/06/2015 09:09 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:
>
>>  > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
>> Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...
>>
>> I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you
>> don't use most of the methods,
>>
>>
> Hi Nicolai,
> imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer wins, if the user
> mostly uses the first few proposals. perhaps one could program several
> different heuristics, that decide, what the user wants. depending on the
> user choices, the weights for these heuristics get updated accordingly and
> then the choices get sorted with those weights. this way the
> code-completion could adapt to the way each user works?
>


Yes this would be nice, but it is not an easy task.


> werner
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[stepharo]

Part of the Phd of Romain Robbes was about comparing completion 
algorithms. And NOC/NEC are part of the results

but it needs a real pass.

Stef


Hi Nicolai,
imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer wins, if the 
user mostly uses the first few proposals. perhaps one could program 
several different heuristics, that decide, what the user wants. 
depending on the user choices, the weights for these heuristics get 
updated accordingly and then the choices get sorted with those 
weights. this way the code-completion could adapt to the way each user 
works?

werner

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Esteban Lorenzano]

> On 06 Oct 2015, at 15:53, Nicolai Hess  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 2015-10-06 15:28 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano  >:
> 
>> On 06 Oct 2015, at 15:23, Nicolai Hess > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2015-10-06 13:46 GMT+02:00 Henrik Johansen > >:
>> 
>>> On 06 Oct 2015, at 1:33 , Nicolai Hess >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2015-10-06 11:57 GMT+02:00 Werner Kassens >> >:
>>> On 10/06/2015 09:09 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:
>>>  > Since Object has almost 500 methods whatever I will start typing
>>> Object/TClass/TBehavior/... will have a list of answers...
>>> 
>>> I think this is difficult, even though this classes are big and you
>>> don't use most of the methods,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Nicolai,
>>> imagine that code-completion is a game and the computer wins, if the user 
>>> mostly uses the first few proposals. perhaps one could program several 
>>> different heuristics, that decide, what the user wants. depending on the 
>>> user choices, the weights for these heuristics get updated accordingly and 
>>> then the choices get sorted with those weights. this way the 
>>> code-completion could adapt to the way each user works?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes this would be nice, but it is not an easy task.
>>>  
>>> werner
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> I thought we already had something like that...
>> http://www.squeaksource.com/OCompletion/ 
>> 
>> 
>> I can not load it in a recen pharo image. 
>> Is it used in recent versions of squeak?
> 
> OCompletion is already in the image (since Pharo 2.0). 
> if you check your settings, under "Code Completion”, Controller… it should 
> say NOCController. 
> 
> Funny, I always thought the NOC-Classes are some kind of "Old" NEC-Classes.
>  
> Is a lot better than older NECController, but still far from good enough.
> 
> Some more information on this? What is missing.

ECompletion was just a list of matching classes/selectors
OCompletion added some candy like showing first last typed entries (with some 
other heuristic). AFAIR It was scanning changes file to do it so Camilo changed 
it to do something more “image based” (and fast), but we never got happy with 
the results. 
IMO older version was a bit better (but do not be mistaken: it was just “a bit” 
better… we changed it because Marcus hated it, and I think he still does :P) 

So there you have… we need a real completion tool, I agree…  :)

Esteban

> 
>  
> 
> Esteban
> 
> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Henry

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Stephan Eggermont]

On 04/10/15 23:53, Peter Uhnák wrote:

This is both rant and list of questions/notes/observations...

...but first of all:
do Smalltalkers not like code completion? Because the one in Pharo is
really poor and not only that nobody is doing anything about it, *but
also nobody is complaining*; this leads me to believe that you either

a) don't have the manpower (this is true pretty much always, so no
complaints here)


Definitely.
The issue tracker has lots of interesting completion related issues, 
like https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/13124/NECContext-needs-plugin-design


Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Better Code Completion

[Marcus Denker]

> On 04 Oct 2015, at 23:53, Peter Uhnák  wrote:
> 
> This is both rant and list of questions/notes/observations...
> 
> ...but first of all:
> do Smalltalkers not like code completion? Because the one in Pharo is really 
> poor and not only that nobody is doing anything about it, but also nobody is 
> complaining; this leads me to believe that you either
> 
> a) don't have the manpower (this is true pretty much always, so no complaints 
> here)
true. 

> b) don't care about this that much (since you lived without it for 45 years)
> 
> at least from the lack of complaining to me it seems that b) is more likely 
> scenario...
> 
I think people know that complaining does not help… 

It would be nice to improve this (an 1000 other things, too ;-)

Marcus