Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
Profiling a Spotter open ? Thierry 2015-11-12 14:25 GMT+01:00 Torsten Bergmann : > kilon wrote: > >I am on a 100kb/s connection and never had an issue with Spotter, are we > >sure here that is just slow connections or maybe something else ? > > Tried on a slow mobile line now again as well without any problem. > I get the same impression that we talk about something else that slows > it down. > > As one can also see in the first minutes of my video: spotter opens right > away: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-dTp6i_P3s > > This was also done on a machine with a slow connection. The catalog > stuff just appears "deferred" when the info was retrieved but > the spotter tool opens right away and classes and others could be used > as usual. > > Still it would not make sense to retrieve it anytime you open > spotter - thats why I think a cache would be suitable so we > do it just one time per image session. > > Thanks > T. > >
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
On 12-11-15 14:08, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: I am on a 100kb/s connection and never had an issue with Spotter, are we sure here that is just slow connections or maybe something else ? There are two aspects to slow connections: bandwidth and delay. Low bandwidth is probably less of an issue as the amount of data transfered is small (110 KB of json). You need at least a round-trip for the TCP connect and another one for the get request. Stephan
[Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
kilon wrote: >I am on a 100kb/s connection and never had an issue with Spotter, are we >sure here that is just slow connections or maybe something else ? Tried on a slow mobile line now again as well without any problem. I get the same impression that we talk about something else that slows it down. As one can also see in the first minutes of my video: spotter opens right away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-dTp6i_P3s This was also done on a machine with a slow connection. The catalog stuff just appears "deferred" when the info was retrieved but the spotter tool opens right away and classes and others could be used as usual. Still it would not make sense to retrieve it anytime you open spotter - thats why I think a cache would be suitable so we do it just one time per image session. Thanks T.
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
I am on a 100kb/s connection and never had an issue with Spotter, are we sure here that is just slow connections or maybe something else ? On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:06 PM Torsten Bergmann wrote: > >People are saying that they do not want to have the Catalog Projects > displayed by default > > Why do you generalize that people wants to have them "not displayed"? > > It's for people with a slow connection and they lament about the slowdown > - not the > functionality. For this group it feels slow when opening Spotter - > especially when > the JSON rertrieved anytime you open it. > > As I said in the worst case one could put: > > CatalogSettings displayCatalogProjectsInSpotter: false. > > into the startup script or change in settings browser if one works on a > really > slow connection. This is already in latest Pharo image of today. > > >Another option is to provide an intermediary object. For example, how > would it be if we would dive in the Catalog Browser object from the Menu > >category and be able to search for projects? > > A possible solution yes - but I dislike that it would again hide the > available projects in yet another > navigation downpath/sidepath of spotter that one must know and type in > advance. > > Wasn't the idea of Spotter to "just type" without having to know too much > context? > > > I think a cache for the catalog projects for the spotter search (that is > invalidated at image startup) > could solve the problem: > > When Spotter opens the FIRST time the projects are retrieved, > nonetheless all the other items > are already displayed. So the catalog projects appear lazy when > retrieved (as it is now). > > For any following search the quick cache projects can be used without > slowdowns. The server side > of Catalog only updates each 24 hours anyway - so the contents is > usually valid for the image session. > > If there are still people left who (due to a real slow connection) find > this initial one-time retrieval > annoying then they can disable it as described above. > > Nonetheless we get really offtopic from the original subject of this > thread... > > Thanks > T. > >
[Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
>People are saying that they do not want to have the Catalog Projects displayed >by default Why do you generalize that people wants to have them "not displayed"? It's for people with a slow connection and they lament about the slowdown - not the functionality. For this group it feels slow when opening Spotter - especially when the JSON rertrieved anytime you open it. As I said in the worst case one could put: CatalogSettings displayCatalogProjectsInSpotter: false. into the startup script or change in settings browser if one works on a really slow connection. This is already in latest Pharo image of today. >Another option is to provide an intermediary object. For example, how would it >be if we would dive in the Catalog Browser object from the Menu >category and >be able to search for projects? A possible solution yes - but I dislike that it would again hide the available projects in yet another navigation downpath/sidepath of spotter that one must know and type in advance. Wasn't the idea of Spotter to "just type" without having to know too much context? I think a cache for the catalog projects for the spotter search (that is invalidated at image startup) could solve the problem: When Spotter opens the FIRST time the projects are retrieved, nonetheless all the other items are already displayed. So the catalog projects appear lazy when retrieved (as it is now). For any following search the quick cache projects can be used without slowdowns. The server side of Catalog only updates each 24 hours anyway - so the contents is usually valid for the image session. If there are still people left who (due to a real slow connection) find this initial one-time retrieval annoying then they can disable it as described above. Nonetheless we get really offtopic from the original subject of this thread... Thanks T.
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
Hi Torsten, People are saying that they do not want to have the Catalog Projects displayed by default (before you type anything). This makes the opening of Spotter slower. Another option is to provide an intermediary object. For example, how would it be if we would dive in the Catalog Browser object from the Menu category and be able to search for projects? Cheers, Doru > On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > >>> Also the extension for CatalogBrowser does an HTTP request every time one >>> opens spotter. I am for changing this, or >>> at least for not displaying the CatalogBrowser by default until one starts >>> searching. >> >> Wo…. That is why opening Spotter on the other side of the World is so >> slow… >> Yes please, remove this. Really. It does not bring much. > > On the other side of the world (where network is faster) one can just open > spotter, enter > a name or name fragment of a project/framework like "Roassal" hit enter and > load it without > much hazzle. > > I now added an option/setting so you can disable the spotter integration if > required. See attachement. > > Will be in with the next iteration of catalog browser. > > Thanks > T. -- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them."
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
> One thing that slows down spotter is the fact that we display now all entries > from the world menu, which we should change. > Also the extension for CatalogBrowser does an HTTP request every time one > opens spotter. I am for changing this, or > at least for not displaying the CatalogBrowser by default until one starts > searching. Wo…. That is why opening Spotter on the other side of the World is so slow… Yes please, remove this. Really. It does not bring much. Alexandre
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
Hi, It was chosen a while ago that the Global shortcuts are checked first, before the local ones. The local ones propagate from bottom to top. The idea here was to guarantee global behavior, such as Shift+Enter for popping out things like Spotter. I was not happy about that, but that was the choice. Now, I think that the global keymap mechanism should be used sparingly, and I think that using it for Cmd+o is a bit too much. Cheers, Doru > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Henrik Johansen > wrote: > > Ehm, or maybe fix event dispatch so it works properly? > It should always end up testing for event handling By the leaf morph at the > given event position and work its way up if unhandled, not check top-down > like the change to dispatchEvent:with: has ended up doing... > > Cheers, > Henry > >> On 11 Nov 2015, at 11:46 , Tudor Girba wrote: >> >> I actually think we should disable those shortcuts. >> >> The reason is that they “pollute" the global shortcut space: for example, >> you can now not use Cmd+o for any custom action in your own window, and that >> is less than ideal. >> >> The alternative is to use Spotter to spawn windows. The interesting thing >> there is that you do not need shortcuts for every specific windows because >> you can use regular search. For example, opening Playground is: Shift+Enter, >> p, Enter >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >>> On Nov 11, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> 2015-11-11 10:45 GMT+01:00 Peter Uhnák : >>> Hi, >>> >>> currently to open a Playground via shortcut one has to type +o+w, >>> that's because it used to open Workspace. >>> However since it now opens Playground the shortcut is no longer appropriate. >>> >>> So can we change it to +o+p? >>> (This shortcut is currently occupied by Monticello Browser, but that can be >>> movd to +o+m which is free.) >>> >>> cmd+o+m would be >>> ctrl+o ctrl+m on windows, but ctrl+m does not work yet on windows. >>> >>> >>> You could argue that people are used to this shortcut, however that will >>> not be true for newcommers, who will just see it as random naming (which it >>> currently is). >>> >>> Peter >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go." >> >> >> >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com "To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
> > Hi, > > I am totally against it because it's too much time to open it with the > spotter. A shortcut need to be a shortcut. If I need to open it via the > Spotter, I will use the mouse because it's the same time. > One more reason, when the image become too big sometime, the Spotter > need some time to initialize. On one of my latest image the spotter > needed ~3-4sec to open and initialize. > Just regarding the slowdown, if the image has no private data could you maybe share it? If you cannot can I send you some logging statements to see what takes so long. Normally there shouldn't be such a big slowdown. One thing that slows down spotter is the fact that we display now all entries from the world menu, which we should change. Also the extension for CatalogBrowser does an HTTP request every time one opens spotter. I am for changing this, or at least for not displaying the CatalogBrowser by default until one starts searching. Cheers, Andrei > > There is a lot of things that we cannot do easily only with the > keyboard, this is bad. So please, do not remove what works for now. > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > > http://www.synectique.eu > > 165 Avenue Bretagne > Lille 59000 France > >
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
Le 11/11/2015 11:46, Tudor Girba a écrit : > I actually think we should disable those shortcuts. > > The reason is that they “pollute" the global shortcut space: for example, you > can now not use Cmd+o for any custom action in your own window, and that is > less than ideal. > > The alternative is to use Spotter to spawn windows. The interesting thing > there is that you do not need shortcuts for every specific windows because > you can use regular search. For example, opening Playground is: Shift+Enter, > p, Enter > > Cheers, > Doru > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go." > > Hi, I am totally against it because it's too much time to open it with the spotter. A shortcut need to be a shortcut. If I need to open it via the Spotter, I will use the mouse because it's the same time. One more reason, when the image become too big sometime, the Spotter need some time to initialize. On one of my latest image the spotter needed ~3-4sec to open and initialize. There is a lot of things that we cannot do easily only with the keyboard, this is bad. So please, do not remove what works for now. -- Cyril Ferlicot http://www.synectique.eu 165 Avenue Bretagne Lille 59000 France signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > I actually think we should disable those shortcuts. > > The reason is that they “pollute" the global shortcut space: Well they are global shortcuts, so that's to be expected. > for example, you can now not use Cmd+o for any custom action in your own > window, and that is less than ideal. > as far as I know events bubble up, so morphs can intercept them (which will break the global shortcut, but if the programmer sees it as appropriate...) > > The alternative is to use Spotter to spawn windows. The interesting thing > there is that you do not need shortcuts for every specific windows because > you can use regular search. For example, opening Playground is: > Shift+Enter, p, Enter > This takes significantly more time, and on top of that doesn't actually work, because the first group is History and not Menu... so this would open PetitParser browser for me. I don't see a problem in having global shortcuts for the most important tools, if the current key combinations are problem, then we should come up with different combinations. Peter
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
Ehm, or maybe fix event dispatch so it works properly? It should always end up testing for event handling By the leaf morph at the given event position and work its way up if unhandled, not check top-down like the change to dispatchEvent:with: has ended up doing... Cheers, Henry > On 11 Nov 2015, at 11:46 , Tudor Girba wrote: > > I actually think we should disable those shortcuts. > > The reason is that they “pollute" the global shortcut space: for example, you > can now not use Cmd+o for any custom action in your own window, and that is > less than ideal. > > The alternative is to use Spotter to spawn windows. The interesting thing > there is that you do not need shortcuts for every specific windows because > you can use regular search. For example, opening Playground is: Shift+Enter, > p, Enter > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> On Nov 11, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote: >> >> >> >> 2015-11-11 10:45 GMT+01:00 Peter Uhnák : >> Hi, >> >> currently to open a Playground via shortcut one has to type +o+w, >> that's because it used to open Workspace. >> However since it now opens Playground the shortcut is no longer appropriate. >> >> So can we change it to +o+p? >> (This shortcut is currently occupied by Monticello Browser, but that can be >> movd to +o+m which is free.) >> >> cmd+o+m would be >> ctrl+o ctrl+m on windows, but ctrl+m does not work yet on windows. >> >> >> You could argue that people are used to this shortcut, however that will not >> be true for newcommers, who will just see it as random naming (which it >> currently is). >> >> Peter >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go." > > > > signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
I actually think we should disable those shortcuts. The reason is that they “pollute" the global shortcut space: for example, you can now not use Cmd+o for any custom action in your own window, and that is less than ideal. The alternative is to use Spotter to spawn windows. The interesting thing there is that you do not need shortcuts for every specific windows because you can use regular search. For example, opening Playground is: Shift+Enter, p, Enter Cheers, Doru > On Nov 11, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote: > > > > 2015-11-11 10:45 GMT+01:00 Peter Uhnák : > Hi, > > currently to open a Playground via shortcut one has to type +o+w, that's > because it used to open Workspace. > However since it now opens Playground the shortcut is no longer appropriate. > > So can we change it to +o+p? > (This shortcut is currently occupied by Monticello Browser, but that can be > movd to +o+m which is free.) > > cmd+o+m would be > ctrl+o ctrl+m on windows, but ctrl+m does not work yet on windows. > > > You could argue that people are used to this shortcut, however that will not > be true for newcommers, who will just see it as random naming (which it > currently is). > > Peter > -- www.tudorgirba.com "We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go."
Re: [Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
2015-11-11 10:45 GMT+01:00 Peter Uhnák : > Hi, > > currently to open a Playground via shortcut one has to type +o+w, > that's because it used to open Workspace. > However since it now opens Playground the shortcut is no longer > appropriate. > > So can we change it to +o+p? > (This shortcut is currently occupied by Monticello Browser, but that can > be movd to +o+m which is free.) > cmd+o+m would be ctrl+o ctrl+m on windows, but ctrl+m does not work yet on windows. > > You could argue that people are used to this shortcut, however that will > not be true for newcommers, who will just see it as random naming (which it > currently is). > > Peter >
[Pharo-users] Changing playground and monticello shortcuts
Hi, currently to open a Playground via shortcut one has to type +o+w, that's because it used to open Workspace. However since it now opens Playground the shortcut is no longer appropriate. So can we change it to +o+p? (This shortcut is currently occupied by Monticello Browser, but that can be movd to +o+m which is free.) You could argue that people are used to this shortcut, however that will not be true for newcommers, who will just see it as random naming (which it currently is). Peter
