[Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[horrido]

Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under Windows. So
I had to see for myself.

I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp), downloaded
and installed Pharo Launcher.

That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three refused
to open (presumably, they just crash).

Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Travis Ayres]

The launcher is broken for me as well.

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 8:40 PM, horrido  wrote:

> Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under Windows.
> So
> I had to see for myself.
>
> I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp), downloaded
> and installed Pharo Launcher.
>
> That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
> broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three refused
> to open (presumably, they just crash).
>
> Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Hernán Morales Durand]

It is broken. I always use the ZeroConf CLI through wget or curl.

Cheers,

Hernan
El dom., 17 jun. 2018 a las 0:40, horrido
() escribió:
>
> Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under Windows. So
> I had to see for myself.
>
> I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp), downloaded
> and installed Pharo Launcher.
>
> That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
> broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three refused
> to open (presumably, they just crash).
>
> Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[PBKResearch]

I tried downloading the standalone version of Pharo 6.1 in a fresh folder, and 
everything seems fine.

I then tried the Pharo Launcher, which I have never used before. I installed 
the template for Pharo 6.1 (stable) and tried to launch it. The launcher window 
closed, and nothing happened. The Task Manager confirms that it is not running 
invisibly in the background. So for me the launcher is not working, though the 
standalone version is fine.

I am using Windows 10 with all recent updates, on a 4GB machine with Intel Core 
i3 processor.

Hope this helps

Peter Kenny

-Original Message-
From: Pharo-users  On Behalf Of Hernán 
Morales Durand
Sent: 17 June 2018 05:50
To: Any question about pharo is welcome 
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

It is broken. I always use the ZeroConf CLI through wget or curl.

Cheers,

Hernan
El dom., 17 jun. 2018 a las 0:40, horrido
() escribió:
>
> Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under 
> Windows. So I had to see for myself.
>
> I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp), 
> downloaded and installed Pharo Launcher.
>
> That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly 
> broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three 
> refused to open (presumably, they just crash).
>
> Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Richard Sargent]

Try running the launcher as administrator.
It may not help, but I recall this was a problem not long ago.

On June 17, 2018 9:08:50 AM PDT, PBKResearch  wrote:
>I tried downloading the standalone version of Pharo 6.1 in a fresh
>folder, and everything seems fine.
>
>I then tried the Pharo Launcher, which I have never used before. I
>installed the template for Pharo 6.1 (stable) and tried to launch it.
>The launcher window closed, and nothing happened. The Task Manager
>confirms that it is not running invisibly in the background. So for me
>the launcher is not working, though the standalone version is fine.
>
>I am using Windows 10 with all recent updates, on a 4GB machine with
>Intel Core i3 processor.
>
>Hope this helps
>
>Peter Kenny
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Pharo-users  On Behalf Of
>Hernán Morales Durand
>Sent: 17 June 2018 05:50
>To: Any question about pharo is welcome 
>Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?
>
>It is broken. I always use the ZeroConf CLI through wget or curl.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Hernan
>El dom., 17 jun. 2018 a las 0:40, horrido
>() escribió:
>>
>> Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under 
>> Windows. So I had to see for myself.
>>
>> I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp), 
>> downloaded and installed Pharo Launcher.
>>
>> That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
>
>> broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three 
>> refused to open (presumably, they just crash).
>>
>> Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[PBKResearch]

Tried ‘Run as administrator’ – same result. Also tried to uninstall launcher, 
both by double-clicking ‘uninstall.exe’ and via Windows settings menu. Nothing 
happens. It really is broken.

 

Peter Kenny

 

From: Richard Sargent  
Sent: 17 June 2018 17:42
To: Any question about pharo is welcome ; 
PBKResearch ; 'Any question about pharo is welcome' 

Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

 

Try running the launcher as administrator.
It may not help, but I recall this was a problem not long ago.

On June 17, 2018 9:08:50 AM PDT, PBKResearch mailto:pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote:

I tried downloading the standalone version of Pharo 6.1 in a fresh folder, and 
everything seems fine.

I then tried the Pharo Launcher, which I have never used before. I installed 
the template for Pharo 6.1 (stable) and tried to launch it. The launcher window 
closed, and nothing happened. The Task Manager confirms that it is not running 
invisibly in the background. So for me the launcher is not working, though the 
standalone version is fine.

I am using Windows 10 with all recent updates, on a 4GB machine with Intel Core 
i3 processor.

Hope this helps

Peter Kenny

-Original Message-
From: Pharo-users mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org> > On Behalf Of Hernán Morales 
Durand
Sent: 17 June 2018 05:50
To: Any question about pharo is welcome mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> >
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

It is broken. I always use the ZeroConf CLI through wget or curl.

Cheers,

Hernan
El dom., 17 jun. 2018 a las 0:40, horrido
(mailto:horrido.hobb...@gmail.com> >) escribió:


 Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under 
 Windows. So I had to see for myself.

 I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp), 
 downloaded and installed Pharo Launcher.

 That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly 
 broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three 
 refused to open (presumably, they just crash).

 Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?



 --
 Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Petr Fischer]

I have a challenge for you: try to uninstall it :)

Look at this thread for Win10 workarounds:
https://twitter.com/smalltalkdev/status/978973863332798464

If you do not like workarounds, stay with standalone downloads (or zeroconf for 
Linux).

pf

> Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under Windows. So
> I had to see for myself.
> 
> I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp), downloaded
> and installed Pharo Launcher.
> 
> That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
> broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three refused
> to open (presumably, they just crash).
> 
> Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[p...@highoctane.be]

The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
edge is the wrong one in files.
The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
improving.

That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.

so, steal the installer from here:
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher

This is the one you want:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/

For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.

Phil



On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 7:17 PM Petr Fischer  wrote:

> I have a challenge for you: try to uninstall it :)
>
> Look at this thread for Win10 workarounds:
> https://twitter.com/smalltalkdev/status/978973863332798464
>
> If you do not like workarounds, stay with standalone downloads (or
> zeroconf for Linux).
>
> pf
>
> > Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under
> Windows. So
> > I had to see for myself.
> >
> > I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp),
> downloaded
> > and installed Pharo Launcher.
> >
> > That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
> > broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three
> refused
> > to open (presumably, they just crash).
> >
> > Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> >
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Travis Ayres]

I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.

On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM, p...@highoctane.be 
wrote:

> The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
> edge is the wrong one in files.
> The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
> improving.
>
> That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.
>
> so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
> jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher
>
> This is the one you want:
>
> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/
>
> For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
> into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 7:17 PM Petr Fischer  wrote:
>
>> I have a challenge for you: try to uninstall it :)
>>
>> Look at this thread for Win10 workarounds:
>> https://twitter.com/smalltalkdev/status/978973863332798464
>>
>> If you do not like workarounds, stay with standalone downloads (or
>> zeroconf for Linux).
>>
>> pf
>>
>> > Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under
>> Windows. So
>> > I had to see for myself.
>> >
>> > I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp),
>> downloaded
>> > and installed Pharo Launcher.
>> >
>> > That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
>> > broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three
>> refused
>> > to open (presumably, they just crash).
>> >
>> > Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>> >
>>
>>
>>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[p...@highoctane.be]

Install for the msi on the CI.

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/

On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 7:02 PM PBKResearch  wrote:

> Tried ‘Run as administrator’ – same result. Also tried to uninstall
> launcher, both by double-clicking ‘uninstall.exe’ and via Windows settings
> menu. Nothing happens. It really is broken.
>
>
>
> Peter Kenny
>
>
>
> *From:* Richard Sargent 
> *Sent:* 17 June 2018 17:42
> *To:* Any question about pharo is welcome ;
> PBKResearch ; 'Any question about pharo is
> welcome' 
> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?
>
>
>
> Try running the launcher as administrator.
> It may not help, but I recall this was a problem not long ago.
>
> On June 17, 2018 9:08:50 AM PDT, PBKResearch 
> wrote:
>
> I tried downloading the standalone version of Pharo 6.1 in a fresh folder, 
> and everything seems fine.
>
> I then tried the Pharo Launcher, which I have never used before. I installed 
> the template for Pharo 6.1 (stable) and tried to launch it. The launcher 
> window closed, and nothing happened. The Task Manager confirms that it is not 
> running invisibly in the background. So for me the launcher is not working, 
> though the standalone version is fine.
>
> I am using Windows 10 with all recent updates, on a 4GB machine with Intel 
> Core i3 processor.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Peter Kenny
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Pharo-users  On Behalf Of Hernán 
> Morales Durand
> Sent: 17 June 2018 05:50
> To: Any question about pharo is welcome 
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?
>
> It is broken. I always use the ZeroConf CLI through wget or curl.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hernan
> El dom., 17 jun. 2018 a las 0:40, horrido
> () escribió:
>
>
>  Someone told me that they had difficulties installing Pharo under
>  Windows. So I had to see for myself.
>
>  I booted my Mac mini into Windows 7 Ultimate (using Boot Camp),
>  downloaded and installed Pharo Launcher.
>
>  That person was indeed correct. The Windows version of Pharo is badly
>  broken. I created images for Pharo 5.0, 6.1, and 7.0, and all three
>  refused to open (presumably, they just crash).
>
>  Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong?
>
>
>
>  --
>  Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[horrido]

This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
(undocumented or hard to find).

I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
Pharo's reputation.

The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.


Travis Ayres wrote
> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.
> 
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM, 

> phil@

>  <

> phil@

> >
> wrote:
> 
>> The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
>> edge is the wrong one in files.
>> The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
>> improving.
>>
>> That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.
>>
>> so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
>> jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher
>>
>> This is the one you want:
>>
>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/
>>
>> For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
>> into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.
>>
>> Phil





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Herbert Vojčík]

horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:

This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
(undocumented or hard to find).

I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
Pharo's reputation.

The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.


Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong 
decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to 
working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.


Herby


Travis Ayres wrote

I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.

On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM,



phil@



  <



phil@



>
wrote:


The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
edge is the wrong one in files.
The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
improving.

That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.

so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher

This is the one you want:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/

For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.

Phil






--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Tim Mackinnon]

> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision

That’s a bit provocative - I think the launcher is pretty good, and helps 
ensure people get correct versions of things as well as feel more comfortable 
checking out newer Pharo’s (like 7) or other projects. I’ll admit I've blown 
hot and cold on it over the last few years - but I’ve come back to it, as it is 
a nice tool - we just need to rally around and fix it on Windows - and ideally 
ensure its got some tests to show if its broken.

Possibly we could make the download page a bit clearer? But that’s a simple Bug 
report.

I actually admire the drive to push things on - and now is the time to rally 
around together as we’ve had a lot of changes that need stabilising so that 
exciting things like documenter can hit main stream as well.

Tim 

> On 18 Jun 2018, at 14:39, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
>> (undocumented or hard to find).
>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
>> Pharo's reputation.
>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
> 
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision 
> to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working 
> installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
> 
> Herby
> 
>> Travis Ayres wrote
>>> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
>>> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM,
>>> phil@
>>>  <
>>> phil@
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
 edge is the wrong one in files.
 The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
 improving.
 
 That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.
 
 so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
 jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher
 
 This is the one you want:
 
 https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/
 
 For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
 into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.
 
 Phil
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
>> (undocumented or hard to find).
>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
>> Pharo's reputation.
>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
> 
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision 
> to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working 
> installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.

The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially developers who 
can fix Windows problems.

The 'first contact for people who don't know Pharo' on Windows is really hard 
for an IDE.

And although I am not daily using the Launcher myself, I too believe it is a 
really good tool for many users. It just needs fixing and maintenance, like 
everything out there that wants to be successful in our ever changing world.

> Herby
> 
>> Travis Ayres wrote
>>> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
>>> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM,
>>> phil@
>>>  <
>>> phil@
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
 edge is the wrong one in files.
 The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
 improving.
 
 That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.
 
 so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
 jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher
 
 This is the one you want:
 
 https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/
 
 For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
 into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.
 
 Phil
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Esteban Lorenzano]

> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
>> (undocumented or hard to find).
>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
>> Pharo's reputation.
>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
> 
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision 
> to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working 
> installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.

First, it was MY decision.
I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now. 
Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But 
pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there and a 
new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at the result 
will be good. 
I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better 
version arrived, but I’ve been told that will happen this week, so I will wait.

Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important.

Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude and 
unnecessary. 

Esteban

> 
> Herby
> 
>> Travis Ayres wrote
>>> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
>>> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM,
>>> phil@
>>>  <
>>> phil@
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
 edge is the wrong one in files.
 The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
 improving.
 
 That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.
 
 so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
 jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher
 
 This is the one you want:
 
 https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/
 
 For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
 into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.
 
 Phil
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[horrido]

Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?

I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
has about 2%.


Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <

> herby@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
>>> (undocumented or hard to find).
>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
>>> about
>>> Pharo's reputation.
>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>> 
>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to
>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
> 
> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially developers
> who can fix Windows problems.





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

Most are using macOS (which can be considered more or less homogeneous since 
most mac users do update to recent versions at no cost).

Many people are using Linux too, both with UI and for servers. But since there 
are lots of Linux distributions, supporting a large portion of them is lots of 
work. I would say it is fair to say Ubuntu is the leading platform here.

It feels as if there are less Windows users in our community, and the Windows 
world is more fragmented over different versions.

People really underestimate how hard it is to support all these platforms with 
all their quirks. And of course, every individual user complains loudly when it 
is not working for them.

> On 18 Jun 2018, at 16:16, horrido  wrote:
> 
> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?
> 
> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
> has about 2%.
> 
> 
> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <
> 
>> herby@
> 
>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
 This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
 (undocumented or hard to find).
 I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
 newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
 about
 Pharo's reputation.
 The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>>> 
>>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
>>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to
>>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>> 
>> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially developers
>> who can fix Windows problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Herbert Vojčík]

Esteban Lorenzano wrote on 18. 6. 2018 16:04:




On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:



horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:

This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
(undocumented or hard to find).
I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
Pharo's reputation.
The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.


Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision to 
push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working installers 
/ zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.


First, it was MY decision.


My apologies to blaming Steph.


I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now.
Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But 
pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there and a 
new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at the result 
will be good.
I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better 
version arrived, but I’ve been told that will happen this week, so I will wait.

Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important.

Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude and 
unnecessary.


I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows 
launcher was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the 
default download option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind 
of talk helps to get rid of it until working (or make it finally 
actually work), it is anything but unnecessary.


Herby


Esteban



Herby


Travis Ayres wrote

I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.

On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM,
phil@
  <
phil@
>
wrote:


The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
edge is the wrong one in files.
The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
improving.

That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.

so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher

This is the one you want:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/

For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.

Phil

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Ben Coman]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:39, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:

>
>
> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>
>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
>> (undocumented or hard to find).
>>
>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
>> Pharo's reputation.
>>
>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>>
>
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to
> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>
> Herby


I've been using PharoLauncher for years jumping between Linux & Windows,
and it has worked great.
Its not PharoLauncher itself, but limitations of the NSIS installer that
was used and how that interacted poorly with some environments e.g. admin
versus non-admin accounts.

The meta-problem is that PharoLauncher worked great for its few users who
had compatible environments,
but problems remained submerged because it lacked exposure to broad enough
environments to unearth such problems.
A chicken/egg scenario was limiting broader use of PharoLauncher, and it
would continue to languish
with biting the bullet to get more users - and more reports.  The challenge
is providing enough resource priority
to deal with issues quickly so not to annoy users too much.

I'm very glad PharoLauncher is being promoted as it is,  however it may be
worth considering that
it is for "managing multiple images" and very-new users probably aren't
immediately concerned with that.
Very-new users are concerned with getting something up as quick and easy as
possible,
and PharoLauncher does add a few extra steps.  Maybe the top of the
downloads page could
have the zip downloads tagged something like "Taste Test Install"  and also
include a copy of PBE in those zips.

cheers -ben



>
>
> Travis Ayres wrote
>>
>>> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
>>> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM,
>>>
>>
>> phil@
>>>
>>
>>   <
>>>
>>
>> phil@
>>>
>>
>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
 edge is the wrong one in files.
 The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
 improving.

 That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.

 so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
 jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher

 This is the one you want:

 https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/

 For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings,
 get
 into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.

 Phil

>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[James Foster]

> On Jun 18, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:
> 
> Esteban Lorenzano wrote on 18. 6. 2018 16:04:
>> please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude and 
>> unnecessary.
> 
> I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher was 
> not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download 
> option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get 
> rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything 
> but unnecessary.

“Sometimes" it seems necessary to be rude. If an insult is the only thing that 
works, "it is anything but unnecessary."

While one can make a case that arrogant, rude behavior is occasionally 
“necessary," you haven’t made it here. To do so you first need to show (1) not 
just that the problem existed but was reported a long time ago, (2) that other 
more gentle attempts to push the issue were unsuccessful, (3) that the benefit 
of the fix outweighs the cost of the damage you are doing to the community, and 
(4) that you are uniquely qualified to make that judgment. You have not 
satisfied any of those requirements. 

Is this the way you treat your family? Are you managing a software team using 
this approach? Or do you limit this sort of behavior to on-line communities?

James Foster

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido :
> 
> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?
> 
> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
> has about 2%.
> 
Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure if 
you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. For 
squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. 

Norbert 
> 
> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <
> 
>> herby@
> 
>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
 This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
 (undocumented or hard to find).
 I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
 newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
 about
 Pharo's reputation.
 The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>>> 
>>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
>>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to
>>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>> 
>> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially developers
>> who can fix Windows problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[horrido]

Developers are users, and many users are developers.

What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers
represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these
developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo,
Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows.

Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and
Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers
under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical?


NorbertHartl wrote
>> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >:
>> 
>> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?
>> 
>> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
>> has about 2%.
>> 
> Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure
> if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share.
> For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. 
> 
> Norbert 
>> 
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
 On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <
>> 
>>> herby@
>> 
>>> > wrote:
 
 
 
 horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
> (undocumented or hard to find).
> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care
> that
> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
> about
> Pharo's reputation.
> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
 
 Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
 decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert
 to
 working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>>> 
>>> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially
>>> developers
>>> who can fix Windows problems.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Tudor Girba]

Hi Herbert,

I too invite you to reconsider your language. Please stick to arguments. This 
is a public forum and its communication hygiene depends on everyone’s behavior.

Now, tackling your point: in this specific case, even your argument is 
incorrect. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Pharo 7 is a development 
version and this is expected to have glitches from time to time. While this is 
inconvenient, pushing new things is the only way to obtain the necessary 
feedback. If you prefer stability, you are welcome to work with 6.1.

Cheers,
Tudor



> On Jun 18, 2018, at 4:47 PM, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Esteban Lorenzano wrote on 18. 6. 2018 16:04:
>>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
 This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
 (undocumented or hard to find).
 I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that
 newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about
 Pharo's reputation.
 The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>>> 
>>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision 
>>> to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working 
>>> installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>> First, it was MY decision.
> 
> My apologies to blaming Steph.
> 
>> I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now.
>> Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But 
>> pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there and 
>> a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at the 
>> result will be good.
>> I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better 
>> version arrived, but I’ve been told that will happen this week, so I will 
>> wait.
>> Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important.
>> Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude 
>> and unnecessary.
> 
> I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher was 
> not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download 
> option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get 
> rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything 
> but unnecessary.
> 
> Herby
> 
>> Esteban
>>> 
>>> Herby
>>> 
 Travis Ayres wrote
> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken"
> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance.
> 
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM,
> phil@
>  <
> phil@
> >
> wrote:
> 
>> The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding
>> edge is the wrong one in files.
>> The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really
>> improving.
>> 
>> That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works.
>> 
>> so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-
>> jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher
>> 
>> This is the one you want:
>> 
>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/
>> 
>> For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get
>> into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages.
>> 
>> Phil
 --
 Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Beauty is where we see it."

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 18.06.2018 um 19:19 schrieb horrido :
> 
> Developers are users, and many users are developers.
> 
Ah, I’m not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the market 
share you were referring to is users that are not developers.

> What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers
> represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these
> developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo,
> Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows.
> 
> Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and
> Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers
> under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical?
> 
Ok, let’s try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows why 
is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean that 
either there aren’t many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy) to 
improve stuff in pharo. And don’t tell me you count the windows developers that 
are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that is not working 
properly.

Norbert
> 
> NorbertHartl wrote
>>> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido <
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> >:
>>> 
>>> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?
>>> 
>>> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
>>> has about 2%.
>>> 
>> Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure
>> if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share.
>> For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. 
>> 
>> Norbert 
>>> 
>>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <
>>> 
 herby@
>>> 
 > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
>> (undocumented or hard to find).
>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care
>> that
>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
>> about
>> Pharo's reputation.
>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
> 
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert
> to
> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
 
 The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially
 developers
 who can fix Windows problems.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[p...@highoctane.be]

I  am developing on Windows  and using the launcher.

Also on Linux and macOS.

In a corp environment, Windows rules.

So make it work there if you want any traction.

The laucher now works nicely on Windows.

But the files are not the right ones on the download page.

So fixing that will go a long way.

I have been back on using more mainstream tech and well, stuff works as
advertised.

We are lagging behind on a couple fronts that's what I see.


Phil



On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 20:04 Norbert Hartl  wrote:

>
>
> Am 18.06.2018 um 19:19 schrieb horrido :
>
> Developers are users, and many users are developers.
>
> Ah, I’m not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the
> market share you were referring to is users that are not developers.
>
> What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers
> represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these
> developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo,
> Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows.
>
> Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and
> Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers
> under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical?
>
> Ok, let’s try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows
> why is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean
> that either there aren’t many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy)
> to improve stuff in pharo. And don’t tell me you count the windows
> developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that
> is not working properly.
>
> Norbert
>
>
> NorbertHartl wrote
>
> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido <
>
>
> horrido.hobbies@
>
>
> >:
>
>
> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?
>
> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
> has about 2%.
>
> Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure
> if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share.
> For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform.
>
>
> Norbert
>
>
> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>
> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <
>
>
> herby@
>
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>
> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>
> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
> (undocumented or hard to find).
> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care
> that
> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
> about
> Pharo's reputation.
> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>
>
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert
> to
> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>
>
> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially
> developers
> who can fix Windows problems.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Travis Ayres]

"And don’t tell me you count the windows developers that are driven away
from a user program like PharoLauncher that is not working properly."

Why not?

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:05 AM Norbert Hartl  wrote:

>
>
> Am 18.06.2018 um 19:19 schrieb horrido :
>
> Developers are users, and many users are developers.
>
> Ah, I’m not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the
> market share you were referring to is users that are not developers.
>
> What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers
> represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these
> developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo,
> Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows.
>
> Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and
> Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers
> under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical?
>
> Ok, let’s try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows
> why is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean
> that either there aren’t many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy)
> to improve stuff in pharo. And don’t tell me you count the windows
> developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that
> is not working properly.
>
> Norbert
>
>
> NorbertHartl wrote
>
> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido <
>
>
> horrido.hobbies@
>
>
> >:
>
>
> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?
>
> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
> has about 2%.
>
> Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure
> if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share.
> For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform.
>
>
> Norbert
>
>
> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>
> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <
>
>
> herby@
>
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>
> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>
> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
> (undocumented or hard to find).
> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care
> that
> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
> about
> Pharo's reputation.
> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>
>
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert
> to
> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>
>
> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially
> developers
> who can fix Windows problems.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

On 18/06/18 09:47, Herbert Vojčík wrote:
>>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
>>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him
>>> revert to working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the
>>> bottleneck atm.
>>
>> First, it was MY decision.
>
> My apologies to blaming Steph.
>
>> I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now.
>> Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course
>> not. But pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some
>> bugs there and a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on
>> windows) and at the result will be good.
>> I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a
>> better version arrived, but I’ve been told that will happen this
>> week, so I will wait.
>>
>> Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important.
>>
>> Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is
>> rude and unnecessary.
>
> I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows
> launcher was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the
> default download option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this
> kind of talk helps to get rid of it until working (or make it finally
> actually work), it is anything but unnecessary.

I don't see how this "Macho Programmer Culture" mixing genitalia size
with community behavior and admin choices is necessary. But I see why,
for sure, non-(white)-males feel so unwelcome in developers communities
when some members feels such "necessity" of addressing others with such
language and when pointed to that, just reinforce their choices.

Best,

Offray

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Travis Ayres]

What does not talking like an asshole have to do with being white and male?

...seriously?

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:31 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
offray.l...@mutabit.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 18/06/18 09:47, Herbert Vojčík wrote:
>
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to
> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
>
>
> First, it was MY decision.
>
>
> My apologies to blaming Steph.
>
> I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now.
> Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But
> pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there and
> a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at the
> result will be good.
> I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better
> version arrived, but I’ve been told that will happen this week, so I will
> wait.
>
> Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important.
>
> Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude
> and unnecessary.
>
>
> I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher
> was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download
> option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get
> rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything
> but unnecessary.
>
>
> I don't see how this "Macho Programmer Culture" mixing genitalia size with
> community behavior and admin choices is necessary. But I see why, for sure,
> non-(white)-males feel so unwelcome in developers communities when some
> members feels such "necessity" of addressing others with such language and
> when pointed to that, just reinforce their choices.
>
> Best,
>
> Offray
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Tim Mackinnon]

Guys - let’s STOP this and focus on getting the download page changed. A knife 
fight within our midst is not going to help us make things better.

I’m sure Steph would prefer actions to fix code over in-fighting. The best way 
to make amends would be a nice code fix for the community.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Jun 2018, at 19:39, Travis Ayres  wrote:
> 
> What does not talking like an asshole have to do with being white and male?
> 
> ...seriously?
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:31 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 18/06/18 09:47, Herbert Vojčík wrote:
> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong 
> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to 
> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. 
 
 First, it was MY decision. 
>>> 
>>> My apologies to blaming Steph. 
>>> 
 I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now. 
 Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But 
 pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there 
 and a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at 
 the result will be good. 
 I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better 
 version arrived, but I’ve been told that will happen this week, so I will 
 wait. 
 
 Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important. 
 
 Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude 
 and unnecessary. 
>>> 
>>> I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher 
>>> was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download 
>>> option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get 
>>> rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything 
>>> but unnecessary. 
>> 
>> I don't see how this "Macho Programmer Culture" mixing genitalia size with 
>> community behavior and admin choices is necessary. But I see why, for sure, 
>> non-(white)-males feel so unwelcome in developers communities when some 
>> members feels such "necessity" of addressing others with such language and 
>> when pointed to that, just reinforce their choices.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Offray

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Esteban Lorenzano]

yes, we have bad support for windows. Period.
we try to improve in that, but is hard and takes time… there are lots of small 
details that needs to be taken care in all fronts (from VM to UI, traversing 
all layers)… but we will get there, one step at a time. And with the help of 
those in the community with more proximity to the real problem.

Esteban

> On 18 Jun 2018, at 20:13, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
> 
> I  am developing on Windows  and using the launcher.
> 
> Also on Linux and macOS.
> 
> In a corp environment, Windows rules.
> 
> So make it work there if you want any traction.
> 
> The laucher now works nicely on Windows.
> 
> But the files are not the right ones on the download page.
> 
> So fixing that will go a long way.
> 
> I have been back on using more mainstream tech and well, stuff works as 
> advertised.
> 
> We are lagging behind on a couple fronts that's what I see.
> 
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 20:04 Norbert Hartl  > wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 18.06.2018 um 19:19 schrieb horrido > >:
>> 
>> Developers are users, and many users are developers.
>> 
> Ah, I’m not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the market 
> share you were referring to is users that are not developers.
> 
>> What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers
>> represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these
>> developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo,
>> Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows.
>> 
>> Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and
>> Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers
>> under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical?
>> 
> Ok, let’s try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows why 
> is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean that 
> either there aren’t many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy) to 
> improve stuff in pharo. And don’t tell me you count the windows developers 
> that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that is not 
> working properly.
> 
> Norbert
>> 
>> NorbertHartl wrote
 Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido <
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>> >:
 
 Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using?
 
 I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux
 has about 2%.
 
>>> Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure
>>> if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share.
>>> For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. 
>>> 
>>> Norbert 
 
 Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <
 
> herby@
 
> > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04:
>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds
>>> (undocumented or hard to find).
>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care
>>> that
>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care
>>> about
>>> Pharo's reputation.
>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye.
>> 
>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong
>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert
>> to
>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm.
> 
> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially
> developers
> who can fix Windows problems.
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html 
 
 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html 
>> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Nothing, that's precisely my point! So we don't need to talk about balls
size, with the implicit gender assumptions about courage and the "Macho
Programmer" way of argumentation, that is toxic in *other* communities
for minorities (non white, non cisgender, non male) which usually
repeals them for participation.

So, yes, lets focus on a better installing Pharo experience on Windows.

Cheers,

Offray


On 18/06/18 13:39, Travis Ayres wrote:
> What does not talking like an asshole have to do with being white and
> male?
>
> ...seriously?
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:31 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
> mailto:offray.l...@mutabit.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 18/06/18 09:47, Herbert Vojčík wrote:
 Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously
 wrong decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and
 make him revert to working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT
 there's the bottleneck atm.
>>>
>>> First, it was MY decision.
>>
>> My apologies to blaming Steph.
>>
>>> I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since
>>> year now.
>>> Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of
>>> course not. But pushing it also in windows has already forced us
>>> to fix some bugs there and a new version of the launcher (and a
>>> better Pharo on windows) and at the result will be good.
>>> I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download
>>> until a better version arrived, but I’ve been told that will
>>> happen this week, so I will wait.
>>>
>>> Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is
>>> important.
>>>
>>> Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the
>>> future. Is rude and unnecessary.
>>
>> I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows
>> launcher was not working for so long but it is still pushed as
>> the default download option, because "higher goals" I presume. If
>> this kind of talk helps to get rid of it until working (or make
>> it finally actually work), it is anything but unnecessary.
>
> I don't see how this "Macho Programmer Culture" mixing genitalia
> size with community behavior and admin choices is necessary. But I
> see why, for sure, non-(white)-males feel so unwelcome in
> developers communities when some members feels such "necessity" of
> addressing others with such language and when pointed to that,
> just reinforce their choices.
>
> Best,
>
> Offray
>