Re: A message from the Zend Framework CR team

[Jordi Boggiano]

On 02/08/2016 13:45, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote:

To me its important that anyone on this list does not see the -1 from
Jackalope on the expulsion vote is considered an endorsement with
Paul’s discussion style. I have already contacted him before when I
wanted to give him concrete feedback. At this point I have not gotten
the feeling that Paul is acknowledging that there is a problem. I do
think that in the end it will require all sides making a step towards
each other building trust and building at least a base line in
etiquette. At the same time I feel like its on Paul to clearly
communicate that he even cares. I think the “other side” has made it
clear that they would prefer mediation over expulsion and I think
Paul has so far not shown any willingness to adjust his behavior
regardless of offlist or onlist discussions on this topic, so I
understand the frustration that led to expulsion vote. There Paul
imho rather than mend fences favored to fuel the fire once again. If
this was done intentionally or not I cannot tell.


That's pretty much the reason I voted +1. I have never seen Paul 
acknowledge anything, and any attempt to bring it to the table was 
derailed in his typical not quite aggressive but yet effectively pissing 
you off and making you not want to keep discussing anything style.


I don't see the point of debating this any further. A vote to remove 
membership will not effectively ban Paul from the ML but it would at 
least send a signal that this kind of discussion style is not condoned 
and especially it would mean that it doesn't come from a FIG member 
anymore. That's progress IMO.


Voting -1 means nothing moves forward and we keep on tearing each other 
apart until everyone gives up. That saddens me as I believe in the 
potential of the FIG mission, and I have been fighting to keep people 
around in the last few months.


Best,
Jordi

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Re: A message from the Zend Framework CR team

[Lukas Kahwe Smith]

> On 02 Aug 2016, at 13:10, Matteo Beccati  wrote:
> 
> Hi Gary,
> 
> On 01/08/2016 17:50, GeeH wrote:
>> It was agreed as a group, that voting +1 for the replacement of Paul was
>> inherently pointless, as removing Paul as the voting representative is a
>> moot action resulting in no perceptible change to the situation. As
>> Matthew was one of the public complainants, it should be obvious that as
>> a team we still feel that there was a problem with Paul's behaviour. In
>> effect, we disagree with Paul's expulsion as a voting representative,
>> but still feel there is a problematic situation on the mailing list. We
>> also believe that expelling someone should be a last resort when
>> mediation has failed and that while mediation was attempted, it was not
>> done in a meaningful way with clear goals.
> 
> I was planning to write an email to explain the reasons behind my vote, but I 
> couldn't have found better words to express my own feelings about it.

I also agree with this post.

To me its important that anyone on this list does not see the -1 from Jackalope 
on the expulsion vote is considered an endorsement with Paul’s discussion 
style. I have already contacted him before when I wanted to give him concrete 
feedback. At this point I have not gotten the feeling that Paul is 
acknowledging that there is a problem. I do think that in the end it will 
require all sides making a step towards each other building trust and building 
at least a base line in etiquette. At the same time I feel like its on Paul to 
clearly communicate that he even cares. I think the “other side” has made it 
clear that they would prefer mediation over expulsion and I think Paul has so 
far not shown any willingness to adjust his behavior regardless of offlist or 
onlist discussions on this topic, so I understand the frustration that led to 
expulsion vote. There Paul imho rather than mend fences favored to fuel the 
fire once again. If this was done intentionally or not I cannot tell.

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
sm...@pooteeweet.org



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Re: A message from the Zend Framework CR team

[Matteo Beccati]

Hi Gary,

On 01/08/2016 17:50, GeeH wrote:

It was agreed as a group, that voting +1 for the replacement of Paul was
inherently pointless, as removing Paul as the voting representative is a
moot action resulting in no perceptible change to the situation. As
Matthew was one of the public complainants, it should be obvious that as
a team we still feel that there was a problem with Paul's behaviour. In
effect, we disagree with Paul's expulsion as a voting representative,
but still feel there is a problematic situation on the mailing list. We
also believe that expelling someone should be a last resort when
mediation has failed and that while mediation was attempted, it was not
done in a meaningful way with clear goals.


I was planning to write an email to explain the reasons behind my vote, 
but I couldn't have found better words to express my own feelings about it.



Cheers
--
Matteo Beccati

Development & Consulting - http://www.beccati.com/

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