Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
At 4:30 PM +0100 10/8/10, Nathan Rixham wrote: tedd wrote: Now, back to the question at hand -- what price would you sell a line of your code for? Interesting case and question Tedd! Quite sure we all realise the answer is not black and white but various shades of grey, and I wouldn't fancy doing this for real - however, given the assumption that it was technically solid code average, and assuming it was a functional approach (as in there wasn't chunks of domain schema classes with nothing but getters and setters around / boiler plate junk), then: 35-40 cents per line The approach I've taken to working it out is to try and average out lines of code produced per 8 hour working day, allowing time for research, decision making, minor code reduction and refactoring, then adding a small offset for any time spend on documentation which would show further understanding and confidence in the code + make it more usable. Whitespace and a coding styles which produce more lines but the same amount of code not included. I've also made a small adjustment for the 'several years ago' all though I'm assuming this to be early 2000s and not the 1970s ;) Anywhere near? ps: tedd, please cc me in to the final answer as I won't have time to check the list for a while, and I'm quite interested in this one - kudos to you if you managed to do it and get both parties happy with the result though! Best, Nathan Nathan et al: I rechecked my notes and this case took place circa 1996-7. The case was settled out of court. The final agreement (partly negotiated by me) was $1.00 per line. The programmer had generated around 25,000 lines of code and the new client agreed that the programmer could keep $25,000 of the up-front money. It seemed like a clean and easy to understand arrangement. Since that time, I have often looked to my own code to see how that figure holds up. In my most recent work, I was paid around $0.50 per line of code. Keep in mind that this is for finished and working code and *not* all the code I wrote to investigate/test/solve the various problems. My typical method of problem solving is to write small stand-alone solutions and then move them to the larger project. It is the code in the larger project that's considered in the cost determination. So for me, about $0.50 per line of code seems to hold up for projects that exceed 100 hours. For projects that are less, the cost per line increases. For example, I had one project where I wrote three lines of code and was paid $200. However, it took me several hours to figure out what to do and where to put the line. In any event, this is where one statement per line (including braces) pays off. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
tedd wrote: At 4:30 PM +0100 10/8/10, Nathan Rixham wrote: tedd wrote: Now, back to the question at hand -- what price would you sell a line of your code for? Interesting case and question Tedd! Quite sure we all realise the answer is not black and white but various shades of grey, and I wouldn't fancy doing this for real - however, given the assumption that it was technically solid code average, and assuming it was a functional approach (as in there wasn't chunks of domain schema classes with nothing but getters and setters around / boiler plate junk), then: 35-40 cents per line The approach I've taken to working it out is to try and average out lines of code produced per 8 hour working day, allowing time for research, decision making, minor code reduction and refactoring, then adding a small offset for any time spend on documentation which would show further understanding and confidence in the code + make it more usable. Whitespace and a coding styles which produce more lines but the same amount of code not included. I've also made a small adjustment for the 'several years ago' all though I'm assuming this to be early 2000s and not the 1970s ;) Anywhere near? ps: tedd, please cc me in to the final answer as I won't have time to check the list for a while, and I'm quite interested in this one - kudos to you if you managed to do it and get both parties happy with the result though! Best, Nathan Nathan et al: I rechecked my notes and this case took place circa 1996-7. The case was settled out of court. The final agreement (partly negotiated by me) was $1.00 per line. The programmer had generated around 25,000 lines of code and the new client agreed that the programmer could keep $25,000 of the up-front money. It seemed like a clean and easy to understand arrangement. I'm actually glad to here of that outcome - in many ways I'd gone with bottom price for general web development, whereas I stated it would be £1 per line for my own code - that said I'd be reluctant to take a per line pricing model ;) Good question Tedd, I enjoyed this one - particularly as it made one consider the various elements that go in to producing code other than just lines produced. Cheers, Nathan Since that time, I have often looked to my own code to see how that figure holds up. In my most recent work, I was paid around $0.50 per line of code. Keep in mind that this is for finished and working code and *not* all the code I wrote to investigate/test/solve the various problems. My typical method of problem solving is to write small stand-alone solutions and then move them to the larger project. It is the code in the larger project that's considered in the cost determination. So for me, about $0.50 per line of code seems to hold up for projects that exceed 100 hours. For projects that are less, the cost per line increases. For example, I had one project where I wrote three lines of code and was paid $200. However, it took me several hours to figure out what to do and where to put the line. In any event, this is where one statement per line (including braces) pays off. Cheers, tedd -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
tedd wrote: Now, back to the question at hand -- what price would you sell a line of your code for? Interesting case and question Tedd! Quite sure we all realise the answer is not black and white but various shades of grey, and I wouldn't fancy doing this for real - however, given the assumption that it was technically solid code average, and assuming it was a functional approach (as in there wasn't chunks of domain schema classes with nothing but getters and setters around / boiler plate junk), then: 35-40 cents per line The approach I've taken to working it out is to try and average out lines of code produced per 8 hour working day, allowing time for research, decision making, minor code reduction and refactoring, then adding a small offset for any time spend on documentation which would show further understanding and confidence in the code + make it more usable. Whitespace and a coding styles which produce more lines but the same amount of code not included. I've also made a small adjustment for the 'several years ago' all though I'm assuming this to be early 2000s and not the 1970s ;) Anywhere near? ps: tedd, please cc me in to the final answer as I won't have time to check the list for a while, and I'm quite interested in this one - kudos to you if you managed to do it and get both parties happy with the result though! Best, Nathan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
Nathan Rixham wrote: tedd wrote: Now, back to the question at hand -- what price would you sell a line of your code for? Just realised I responded to the wrong question - the answer was how I'd approach the original question What do you think he was paid? For myself, I wouldn't place a price on a single line of code, you can have one for free :) if you want me to do 25,000 lines of code then it'll be circa £1 GBP per line, seeing as you aren't considering any of the other factors. Unless it's open source as I cc-zero all my open source / community stuff. Interesting case and question Tedd! Quite sure we all realise the answer is not black and white but various shades of grey, and I wouldn't fancy doing this for real - however, given the assumption that it was technically solid code average, and assuming it was a functional approach (as in there wasn't chunks of domain schema classes with nothing but getters and setters around / boiler plate junk), then: 35-40 cents per line The approach I've taken to working it out is to try and average out lines of code produced per 8 hour working day, allowing time for research, decision making, minor code reduction and refactoring, then adding a small offset for any time spend on documentation which would show further understanding and confidence in the code + make it more usable. Whitespace and a coding styles which produce more lines but the same amount of code not included. I've also made a small adjustment for the 'several years ago' all though I'm assuming this to be early 2000s and not the 1970s ;) Anywhere near? ps: tedd, please cc me in to the final answer as I won't have time to check the list for a while, and I'm quite interested in this one - kudos to you if you managed to do it and get both parties happy with the result though! Best, Nathan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:20 PM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi gang: Several years ago I was involved in a court case where a programmers work was being evaluated to establish a dollar amount for the work done. The case was a dispute where the client wanted money back from a programmer for a discontinued project. The programmer simply wanted to be paid for the work he had done. This wasn't a case where anyone had done anything wrong, but rather a circumstance where two parties were trying to figure out who was due what. You see, the original client had been taken over by another company who put a halt to the project the programmer was working on. The new company claimed that because the project wasn't finished, then the programmer should pay back all the money he was paid up-front to start the project. However, while the project had not been finished, the programmer had indeed worked on the project for several months. The programmer stated he wanted to paid his hourly rate. But the new client stated that the up-front money paid had been based upon a bid and not an hourly rate. So, they were at odds as to what to do. The solution in this case was to place a dollar amount on the actual lines of code the programmer wrote. In other words, they took all of programmers code and actually counted the lines of code he wrote and then agreed to a specific dollar amount to each line. In this case, the programmer had written over 25,000 lines of code. What do you think he was paid? And with all of that said, what dollar amount would you place on your line of code? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php I bet it wasn't much., $.10 (ten cents) per line? -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
On 10-10-07 01:20 PM, tedd wrote: Hi gang: Several years ago I was involved in a court case where a programmers work was being evaluated to establish a dollar amount for the work done. The case was a dispute where the client wanted money back from a programmer for a discontinued project. The programmer simply wanted to be paid for the work he had done. This wasn't a case where anyone had done anything wrong, but rather a circumstance where two parties were trying to figure out who was due what. You see, the original client had been taken over by another company who put a halt to the project the programmer was working on. The new company claimed that because the project wasn't finished, then the programmer should pay back all the money he was paid up-front to start the project. However, while the project had not been finished, the programmer had indeed worked on the project for several months. The programmer stated he wanted to paid his hourly rate. But the new client stated that the up-front money paid had been based upon a bid and not an hourly rate. So, they were at odds as to what to do. The solution in this case was to place a dollar amount on the actual lines of code the programmer wrote. In other words, they took all of programmers code and actually counted the lines of code he wrote and then agreed to a specific dollar amount to each line. In this case, the programmer had written over 25,000 lines of code. What do you think he was paid? And with all of that said, what dollar amount would you place on your line of code? This is a poor system for evaluation. Some lines are worth MUCH, MUCH more than others. Cheers, Rob. -- E-Mail Disclaimer: Information contained in this message and any attached documents is considered confidential and legally protected. This message is intended solely for the addressee(s). Disclosure, copying, and distribution are prohibited unless authorized. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
I'm not sure this is even worth answering. The question isn't how many lines of code were written but percentage of the project completed. If he estimated 8 months, worked for 4 months, and was 50% done, he should get half his estimate. Hourly rates wouldn't come into it unless the client thought it would be cheaper to simply pay him for his time rather then the bid. Subject the following to my poor legal knowledge: I would also guess that if he was under contract with a company to provide a product for a set dollar amount then wouldn't the company be forced to complete it's half so to speak? Regards, -Josh Joshua Kehn | josh.k...@gmail.com http://joshuakehn.com On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:20 PM, tedd wrote: Hi gang: Several years ago I was involved in a court case where a programmers work was being evaluated to establish a dollar amount for the work done. The case was a dispute where the client wanted money back from a programmer for a discontinued project. The programmer simply wanted to be paid for the work he had done. This wasn't a case where anyone had done anything wrong, but rather a circumstance where two parties were trying to figure out who was due what. You see, the original client had been taken over by another company who put a halt to the project the programmer was working on. The new company claimed that because the project wasn't finished, then the programmer should pay back all the money he was paid up-front to start the project. However, while the project had not been finished, the programmer had indeed worked on the project for several months. The programmer stated he wanted to paid his hourly rate. But the new client stated that the up-front money paid had been based upon a bid and not an hourly rate. So, they were at odds as to what to do. The solution in this case was to place a dollar amount on the actual lines of code the programmer wrote. In other words, they took all of programmers code and actually counted the lines of code he wrote and then agreed to a specific dollar amount to each line. In this case, the programmer had written over 25,000 lines of code. What do you think he was paid? And with all of that said, what dollar amount would you place on your line of code? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 13:20, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi gang: Hi, Tedd! What's it like over there in Australia, where it's already Friday? ;-P -- /Daniel P. Brown Dedicated Servers, Cloud and Cloud Hybrid Solutions, VPS, Hosting (866-) 725-4321 http://www.parasane.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
At 1:30 PM -0400 10/7/10, Daniel P. Brown wrote: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 13:20, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi gang: Hi, Tedd! What's it like over there in Australia, where it's already Friday? ;-P -- /Daniel P. Brown LOL I'm sorry -- I seldom know what day it is. I honestly thought it was Friday. So much for me knowing what's going on, huh? That's one of the dangers of working for yourself, you seldom realize what day today is. When I used to visit the mall (I don't now), some days I would say Gee, it's really crowded today and my wife would answer Certainly, it's Saturday. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
Surely it would have been a bit more sensible to work out the time the programmer had spent on the project and then calculate it as a percentage of the total time that programmer would spend on it to complete it (which might not be the whole duration of the project) Also, counting code lines seems unfair. I know it used to be this way, but its a bit like paying firemen based on the number of fires they put out; don't be surprised if arson figures go up! I would guess though that this fellow likely had to pay some of that initial outlay of cash back though, and would further assume the total price attributed to each line was no more than 3 or 4 cents (damb English androids don't have the cent character) Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk - Reply message - From: tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 18:20 Subject: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line) To: php-general@lists.php.net Hi gang: Several years ago I was involved in a court case where a programmers work was being evaluated to establish a dollar amount for the work done. The case was a dispute where the client wanted money back from a programmer for a discontinued project. The programmer simply wanted to be paid for the work he had done. This wasn't a case where anyone had done anything wrong, but rather a circumstance where two parties were trying to figure out who was due what. You see, the original client had been taken over by another company who put a halt to the project the programmer was working on. The new company claimed that because the project wasn't finished, then the programmer should pay back all the money he was paid up-front to start the project. However, while the project had not been finished, the programmer had indeed worked on the project for several months. The programmer stated he wanted to paid his hourly rate. But the new client stated that the up-front money paid had been based upon a bid and not an hourly rate. So, they were at odds as to what to do. The solution in this case was to place a dollar amount on the actual lines of code the programmer wrote. In other words, they took all of programmers code and actually counted the lines of code he wrote and then agreed to a specific dollar amount to each line. In this case, the programmer had written over 25,000 lines of code. What do you think he was paid? And with all of that said, what dollar amount would you place on your line of code? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
In the case payment does come down to lines of code written I'm already covered.
if( count 5)
{
/* Bracing Style
}
Regards,
-Josh
Joshua Kehn | josh.k...@gmail.com
http://joshuakehn.com
On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:50 PM, a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote:
Surely it would have been a bit more sensible to work out the time the
programmer had spent on the project and then calculate it as a percentage of
the total time that programmer would spend on it to complete it (which might
not be the whole duration of the project)
Also, counting code lines seems unfair. I know it used to be this way, but
its a bit like paying firemen based on the number of fires they put out;
don't be surprised if arson figures go up!
I would guess though that this fellow likely had to pay some of that initial
outlay of cash back though, and would further assume the total price
attributed to each line was no more than 3 or 4 cents (damb English androids
don't have the cent character)
Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
- Reply message -
From: tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 18:20
Subject: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
To: php-general@lists.php.net
Hi gang:
Several years ago I was involved in a court case where a programmers
work was being evaluated to establish a dollar amount for the work
done.
The case was a dispute where the client wanted money back from a
programmer for a discontinued project. The programmer simply wanted
to be paid for the work he had done. This wasn't a case where anyone
had done anything wrong, but rather a circumstance where two parties
were trying to figure out who was due what.
You see, the original client had been taken over by another company
who put a halt to the project the programmer was working on. The new
company claimed that because the project wasn't finished, then the
programmer should pay back all the money he was paid up-front to
start the project. However, while the project had not been finished,
the programmer had indeed worked on the project for several months.
The programmer stated he wanted to paid his hourly rate. But the new
client stated that the up-front money paid had been based upon a bid
and not an hourly rate. So, they were at odds as to what to do.
The solution in this case was to place a dollar amount on the actual
lines of code the programmer wrote. In other words, they took all
of programmers code and actually counted the lines of code he wrote
and then agreed to a specific dollar amount to each line. In this
case, the programmer had written over 25,000 lines of code. What do
you think he was paid?
And with all of that said, what dollar amount would you place on your
line of code?
Cheers,
tedd
--
---
http://sperling.com/
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Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 14:04, Joshua Kehn josh.k...@gmail.com wrote:
In the case payment does come down to lines of code written I'm already
covered.
if( count 5)
{
/* Bracing Style
}
PHP Notice: Use of undefined constant count - assumed 'count' on line 1
PHP Warning: Unterminated comment starting line 3 on line 3
PHP Parse error: syntax error, unexpected $end on line 4
--
/Daniel P. Brown
Dedicated Servers, Cloud and Cloud Hybrid Solutions, VPS, Hosting
(866-) 725-4321
http://www.parasane.net/
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Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
I guess that's what I get for spending the last four weeks developing with
JavaScript and Node.js.
Regards,
-Josh
Joshua Kehn | josh.k...@gmail.com
http://joshuakehn.com
On Oct 7, 2010, at 2:09 PM, Daniel P. Brown wrote:
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 14:04, Joshua Kehn josh.k...@gmail.com wrote:
In the case payment does come down to lines of code written I'm already
covered.
if( count 5)
{
/* Bracing Style
}
PHP Notice: Use of undefined constant count - assumed 'count' on line 1
PHP Warning: Unterminated comment starting line 3 on line 3
PHP Parse error: syntax error, unexpected $end on line 4
--
/Daniel P. Brown
Dedicated Servers, Cloud and Cloud Hybrid Solutions, VPS, Hosting
(866-) 725-4321
http://www.parasane.net/
--
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Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
On 10-10-07 02:04 PM, Joshua Kehn wrote:
In the case payment does come down to lines of code written I'm already covered.
if( count 5)
{
/* Bracing Style
}
I hope your $count var is being incremented properly under this model:
?php
function increment( $count )
{
$count = 0;
if( $count == 0 )
{
$count = 1;
}
else
if( $count == 1 )
{
$count = 2;
}
else
if( $count == 2 )
{
$count = 3;
}
else
if( $count == 3 )
{
$count = 4;
}
else
if( $count == 4 )
{
$count = 5;
}
else
{
throw new Exception( 'Increment out of bounds' );
}
}
?
Just think how much money could be made if you need to support large
datasets!!! CHAA-CHING!
Cheers,
Rob.
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Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
At 6:50 PM +0100 10/7/10, a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: Surely it would have been a bit more sensible to work out the time the programmer had spent on the project and then calculate it as a percentage of the total time that programmer would spend on it to complete it (which might not be the whole duration of the project) Also, counting code lines seems unfair. I know it used to be this way, but its a bit like paying firemen based on the number of fires they put out; don't be surprised if arson figures go up! I would guess though that this fellow likely had to pay some of that initial outlay of cash back though, and would further assume the total price attributed to each line was no more than 3 or 4 cents (damb English androids don't have the cent character) Thanks, Ash As I said, this was a case that I worked on several years ago (20+). I was not the programmer, but rather a consultant for an attorney. The programmer wanted to have his payment based upon the hours he put it, but the client wanted proof of the programmers effort. Both were understandable positions. Considering that the programmers effort did not work, and there were no time clocks showing the actual hours the programmer worked, the solution centered on an evaluation of the end-product. That evaluation reduced to the amount of code written, which boiled down to lines of code. Granted, as Rob said, some lines are worth more than others, but overall a case was made to pay a certain amount per line. Now, back to the question at hand -- what price would you sell a line of your code for? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
$100 a line. If you want more then one line let's meet and go over the project. I might give a significant discount. Regards, -Josh Joshua Kehn | josh.k...@gmail.com http://joshuakehn.com On Oct 7, 2010, at 4:51 PM, tedd wrote: At 6:50 PM +0100 10/7/10, a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: Surely it would have been a bit more sensible to work out the time the programmer had spent on the project and then calculate it as a percentage of the total time that programmer would spend on it to complete it (which might not be the whole duration of the project) Also, counting code lines seems unfair. I know it used to be this way, but its a bit like paying firemen based on the number of fires they put out; don't be surprised if arson figures go up! I would guess though that this fellow likely had to pay some of that initial outlay of cash back though, and would further assume the total price attributed to each line was no more than 3 or 4 cents (damb English androids don't have the cent character) Thanks, Ash As I said, this was a case that I worked on several years ago (20+). I was not the programmer, but rather a consultant for an attorney. The programmer wanted to have his payment based upon the hours he put it, but the client wanted proof of the programmers effort. Both were understandable positions. Considering that the programmers effort did not work, and there were no time clocks showing the actual hours the programmer worked, the solution centered on an evaluation of the end-product. That evaluation reduced to the amount of code written, which boiled down to lines of code. Granted, as Rob said, some lines are worth more than others, but overall a case was made to pay a certain amount per line. Now, back to the question at hand -- what price would you sell a line of your code for? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] tedd's Friday Post ($ per line)
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:51 PM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: At 6:50 PM +0100 10/7/10, a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: Surely it would have been a bit more sensible to work out the time the programmer had spent on the project and then calculate it as a percentage of the total time that programmer would spend on it to complete it (which might not be the whole duration of the project) Also, counting code lines seems unfair. I know it used to be this way, but its a bit like paying firemen based on the number of fires they put out; don't be surprised if arson figures go up! I would guess though that this fellow likely had to pay some of that initial outlay of cash back though, and would further assume the total price attributed to each line was no more than 3 or 4 cents (damb English androids don't have the cent character) Thanks, Ash As I said, this was a case that I worked on several years ago (20+). I was not the programmer, but rather a consultant for an attorney. The programmer wanted to have his payment based upon the hours he put it, but the client wanted proof of the programmers effort. Both were understandable positions. Considering that the programmers effort did not work, and there were no time clocks showing the actual hours the programmer worked, the solution centered on an evaluation of the end-product. That evaluation reduced to the amount of code written, which boiled down to lines of code. Granted, as Rob said, some lines are worth more than others, but overall a case was made to pay a certain amount per line. Now, back to the question at hand -- what price would you sell a line of your code for? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Dr Evil Laugh One Beelyon Dollars -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
