Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[r cs]

Alex (and friends):

Thank you for the truly beautiful work that you share with us!

8-)
rcs

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 3:41 PM Alexander Burger  wrote:

> Hi Guido,
>
> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 08:35:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
> > Perhaps you *all* learn, what a JIT compiler really is, in difference
> > to a AOT Ahead of Time Compiler.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation
> >
> > Make ZEROpointZERO sense then to let Picolisp do, what Clang (the C to
> > LLVM IR translator) does.
> >
> > If this is really the case, it promise, i say 'goodbye' from PicoLisp
> > mailing list!!! I promise!
> >
> > Alex?
>
> Sorry, I'd love to, but I have no idea what you are talking about. PicoLisp
> should not generate its code?
>
> — Alex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>


-- 
*Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin. *[Irish Gaelic]
(There is no fireside like your own fireside.)

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Brian Cleary]

It's the end of an error.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 1:13 PM Karol Drożak  wrote:

> Thank God!...
>
> śr., 6 maj 2020, 21:53 użytkownik Wojciech Gac  > napisał:
>
>> That's all folks. ;)
>>
>> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:41 PM Alexander Burger 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Guido,
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 08:35:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>>> > Perhaps you *all* learn, what a JIT compiler really is, in difference
>>> > to a AOT Ahead of Time Compiler.
>>> >
>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation
>>> >
>>> > Make ZEROpointZERO sense then to let Picolisp do, what Clang (the C to
>>> > LLVM IR translator) does.
>>> >
>>> > If this is really the case, it promise, i say 'goodbye' from PicoLisp
>>> > mailing list!!! I promise!
>>> >
>>> > Alex?
>>>
>>> Sorry, I'd love to, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
>>> PicoLisp
>>> should not generate its code?
>>>
>>> — Alex
>>>
>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>>
>>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Karol Drożak]

Thank God!...

śr., 6 maj 2020, 21:53 użytkownik Wojciech Gac 
napisał:

> That's all folks. ;)
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:41 PM Alexander Burger 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Guido,
>>
>> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 08:35:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>> > Perhaps you *all* learn, what a JIT compiler really is, in difference
>> > to a AOT Ahead of Time Compiler.
>> >
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation
>> >
>> > Make ZEROpointZERO sense then to let Picolisp do, what Clang (the C to
>> > LLVM IR translator) does.
>> >
>> > If this is really the case, it promise, i say 'goodbye' from PicoLisp
>> > mailing list!!! I promise!
>> >
>> > Alex?
>>
>> Sorry, I'd love to, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
>> PicoLisp
>> should not generate its code?
>>
>> — Alex
>>
>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>
>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Wojciech Gac]

That's all folks. ;)

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:41 PM Alexander Burger  wrote:

> Hi Guido,
>
> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 08:35:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
> > Perhaps you *all* learn, what a JIT compiler really is, in difference
> > to a AOT Ahead of Time Compiler.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation
> >
> > Make ZEROpointZERO sense then to let Picolisp do, what Clang (the C to
> > LLVM IR translator) does.
> >
> > If this is really the case, it promise, i say 'goodbye' from PicoLisp
> > mailing list!!! I promise!
> >
> > Alex?
>
> Sorry, I'd love to, but I have no idea what you are talking about. PicoLisp
> should not generate its code?
>
> — Alex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Unsubscribe

[Guido Stepken]

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Guido,

On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 08:35:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
> Perhaps you *all* learn, what a JIT compiler really is, in difference
> to a AOT Ahead of Time Compiler.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation
> 
> Make ZEROpointZERO sense then to let Picolisp do, what Clang (the C to
> LLVM IR translator) does.
> 
> If this is really the case, it promise, i say 'goodbye' from PicoLisp
> mailing list!!! I promise!
> 
> Alex?

Sorry, I'd love to, but I have no idea what you are talking about. PicoLisp
should not generate its code?

— Alex

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Wilhelm Fitzpatrick]

On 5/6/20 11:35 AM, Guido Stepken wrote:


If this is really the case, it promise, i say 'goodbye' from PicoLisp
mailing list!!! I promise!

Oh, Guido, please don't make promises you can't keep 🤣

--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Christophe Gragnic]

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 3:11 PM John Duncan  wrote:
>
> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you find a 
> blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the impression he’s 
> hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was probably in Java.

Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your three sentences above.
A few days ago I wanted to answer Guido and tell him what I thought,
but your protocol is much more interesting.
At least I got that from this story.


chri

--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

Perhaps you *all* learn, what a JIT compiler really is, in difference
to a AOT Ahead of Time Compiler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation

Make ZEROpointZERO sense then to let Picolisp do, what Clang (the C to
LLVM IR translator) does.

If this is really the case, it promise, i say 'goodbye' from PicoLisp
mailing list!!! I promise!

Alex?

This then this would be the biggest waste of time of all times.

Am Mi., 6. Mai 2020 um 19:29 Uhr schrieb John Duncan :
>
> Another benefit of llvm is you get their dataflow analysis and optimization
> for free, on the myriad ARM and x64 microarchitectures as optimized as you
> like. That is harder to do in custom abstract assembly, as you’d have to
> maintain a little zoo of targets.
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 13:08  wrote:
>
> > > On 06.05.20 18:42, John Duncan wrote:
> > > Picolisp is interpreted. Even the llvm version is just creating an
> > > interpreter. There is no JIT.
> > Exactly!
> >
> > Guido, you should really stop talking about things you so obviously have
> > no understanding of.
> > There is NO COMPILING when executing program written in PicoLisp. Nowhere

--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Guido Stepken]

It's not me being on the warpath, it US government by sanctioning and
blackmailing every fucking country in the world. See North Stream 2
threats against Germany and Swiss companies, the warrant against Meng
Wanzhou, former Huawei CFO (no proof, nothing), sanctions even against
Venezuela (maybe they have Weapons of Mass Destruction ...who knows?).

They're weaponizing US Dollar for over a decade now, globally
blackmailing foreign banks with fines (hundreds of billion dollars in
total) and now, since January 1st 2020, they have started to weaponize
their US software industry.

Seems, most people yet don't take that very seriously, but everybody
is affected. Each single Open Source programmer, supporter.

But like Kurt Tucholski said: "Incidentally, the person who points out
the dirt is much more dangerous than the person who makes the dirt!"

So far!





Am Mi., 6. Mai 2020 um 19:09 Uhr schrieb Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos
:
>
> Enough is enough. By bringing a very controversial person in the
> discussion (who does not have the chance to participate in it) you are
> making me lose any interest in your arguments.
>
> You are on a mission. I get it. I might even admire it. I am not on
> that mission and have no interest in it until I see implementations of
> your claims. So far you have shown nothing besides theoretical
> knowledge, not a single line of code, have only called people ignorant
> (and they have allowed this out of courtesy), FUD them (I am not
> planning on sending code on Iran, if they manage to download any, good
> for them) and you keep insisting on your path. Which is OK for you to
> follow; just not necessarily for us.
>
> A cheap Hetzner server can be based in two sites in Germany where you
> are protected from US Law. Show us your code there. Not now, sometime.
> Make your picolisp port use whatever runtime you like. Because frankly
> so far, you seem to want others to do the job for you.  This may not
> be your intent, but this is how get understood over here.
>
> Now show us your parentheses.
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 7:44 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
> >
> > Υπάρχουν πάντοτε άνθρωποι που δεν έχουν πρόσβαση. Και δεν ξέρουν καν γιατί 
> > κάνουν αυτό. Ειδικά σε περιόδους μαζικών πολιτικών αλλαγών. Αυτός είναι 
> > επίσης ο λόγος για τον οποίο ο Βαρουφάκης παραιτήθηκε. Αλλά είχε δίκιο με 
> > πολλούς τρόπους.
> >
> > Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos 
> > :
> > > Βρίσκω τον τρόπο που γίνεται η συζήτηση αγενή.
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:48 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Je ne veux pas faire sursauter trop tôt nos collègues lecteurs des 
> > >> États-Unis. Peut-être tu veux attendre quelques semaines de plus jusqu'à 
> > >> ce que des choses importantes soient décidées au niveau de l'UE.
> > >>
> > >> Mais je peux toi assurer que des parties importantes viennent de France.
> > >>
> > >> Ce sera une grande surprise pour eux.
> > >>
> > >> Amuse-toi bien!
> > >>
> > >> > I'm curious, what are those two similar other tools?
> > >> >
> > >> > Best,
> > >> >
> > >> > Eric
> > >> >
> > >> >>> --
> > >> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
> > >> >>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > keep raising the bar
> > >
> > > --
> > > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subjectUnsubscribe
> > >
>
>
>
> --
> keep raising the bar
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subjectUnsubscribe

--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[John Duncan]

Another benefit of llvm is you get their dataflow analysis and optimization
for free, on the myriad ARM and x64 microarchitectures as optimized as you
like. That is harder to do in custom abstract assembly, as you’d have to
maintain a little zoo of targets.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 13:08  wrote:

> > On 06.05.20 18:42, John Duncan wrote:
> > Picolisp is interpreted. Even the llvm version is just creating an
> > interpreter. There is no JIT.
> Exactly!
>
> Guido, you should really stop talking about things you so obviously have
> no understanding of.
> There is NO COMPILING when executing program written in PicoLisp. Nowhere

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos]

Enough is enough. By bringing a very controversial person in the
discussion (who does not have the chance to participate in it) you are
making me lose any interest in your arguments.

You are on a mission. I get it. I might even admire it. I am not on
that mission and have no interest in it until I see implementations of
your claims. So far you have shown nothing besides theoretical
knowledge, not a single line of code, have only called people ignorant
(and they have allowed this out of courtesy), FUD them (I am not
planning on sending code on Iran, if they manage to download any, good
for them) and you keep insisting on your path. Which is OK for you to
follow; just not necessarily for us.

A cheap Hetzner server can be based in two sites in Germany where you
are protected from US Law. Show us your code there. Not now, sometime.
Make your picolisp port use whatever runtime you like. Because frankly
so far, you seem to want others to do the job for you.  This may not
be your intent, but this is how get understood over here.

Now show us your parentheses.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 7:44 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
>
> Υπάρχουν πάντοτε άνθρωποι που δεν έχουν πρόσβαση. Και δεν ξέρουν καν γιατί 
> κάνουν αυτό. Ειδικά σε περιόδους μαζικών πολιτικών αλλαγών. Αυτός είναι 
> επίσης ο λόγος για τον οποίο ο Βαρουφάκης παραιτήθηκε. Αλλά είχε δίκιο με 
> πολλούς τρόπους.
>
> Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos 
> :
> > Βρίσκω τον τρόπο που γίνεται η συζήτηση αγενή.
> >
> > On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:48 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
> >>
> >> Je ne veux pas faire sursauter trop tôt nos collègues lecteurs des 
> >> États-Unis. Peut-être tu veux attendre quelques semaines de plus jusqu'à 
> >> ce que des choses importantes soient décidées au niveau de l'UE.
> >>
> >> Mais je peux toi assurer que des parties importantes viennent de France.
> >>
> >> Ce sera une grande surprise pour eux.
> >>
> >> Amuse-toi bien!
> >>
> >> > I'm curious, what are those two similar other tools?
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> >
> >> > Eric
> >> >
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
> >> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > keep raising the bar
> >
> > --
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subjectUnsubscribe
> >



-- 
keep raising the bar

--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[John Duncan]

La seguridad por la oscuridad?



On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 12:44 Guido Stepken  wrote:

> Υπάρχουν πάντοτε άνθρωποι που δεν έχουν πρόσβαση. Και δεν ξέρουν καν γιατί
> κάνουν αυτό. Ειδικά σε περιόδους μαζικών πολιτικών αλλαγών. Αυτός είναι
> επίσης ο λόγος για τον οποίο ο Βαρουφάκης παραιτήθηκε. Αλλά είχε δίκιο με
> πολλούς τρόπους.
>
> Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos <
> yiorgos.adamopou...@gmail.com>:
> > Βρίσκω τον τρόπο που γίνεται η συζήτηση αγενή.
> >
> > On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:48 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
> >>
> >> Je ne veux pas faire sursauter trop tôt nos collègues lecteurs des
> États-Unis. Peut-être tu veux attendre quelques semaines de plus jusqu'à ce
> que des choses importantes soient décidées au niveau de l'UE.
> >>
> >> Mais je peux toi assurer que des parties importantes viennent de France.
> >>
> >> Ce sera une grande surprise pour eux.
> >>
> >> Amuse-toi bien!
> >>
> >> > I'm curious, what are those two similar other tools?
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> >
> >> > Eric
> >> >
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
> >> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > keep raising the bar
> >
> > --
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subjectUnsubscribe
> >

-- 
John Duncan

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[andreas]

> On 06.05.20 18:42, John Duncan wrote:
> Picolisp is interpreted. Even the llvm version is just creating an
> interpreter. There is no JIT.
Exactly!

Guido, you should really stop talking about things you so obviously have
no understanding of.
There is NO COMPILING when executing program written in PicoLisp. Nowhere.

> Since the AST (Abstract Syntax Tree) in any Lisp is changing all the
> time, the JIT engine *has to* post-jit continuously to keep up the
> full execution speed.
> That's what will give pil21 a real performance boost over over any
> 'static compiled' implementation. 
Wrong. PicoLisp is having Fexpr's (in opposition to Macros), and Fexpr's
can be impossible to compile at all.
pil21 is not about performance, but compatibility. pil21 is expected to
even run a bit slower then the current amd64 ASM implementation.

The core principles of PicoLisp are simplicity and practicality - raw
speed is not the goal, optimizing developer time is.

- beneroth



--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Joh-Tob Schäg]

Ursprüngliche Nachricht  
Von: gstep...@gmail.com
Gesendet: 6. Mai 2020 17:36
An: picolisp@software-lab.de
Antworten: picolisp@software-lab.de
Betreff: Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US 
Export Law?


Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Joh-Tob Schäg :

>Each one perhaps 50 pages long, that need to be adapted for supporting new CPU 
>architecture.


Exactly. 


>> Alex wrote he is tired of having to write meta assembler code for each 
>> platform. I doubt that will be better if has to use someone else's Meta 
>> assembler. Also LuaJIT does not target RISC-V.

> That's true so far. Though there a a couple of billion RISC-V cpus out there 
> now.
And that's what matters to Alex.


> Target LLVM IR means porting it once and being able to target anything which 
> has a translator.

>> And since when doesn't your C version of Picolisp compile on iOS? 
>> Objective-C is a superset of C with parts of Smalltalk.
>
> You seem really ignorant. Are you unaware that pil32/emu/mini have less 
> features than pil64 and are slower too due to overhead/resrictions used by C?

Is slower speed really an issue with pilbox GUI? Certainly not!

> Also the size of LLVM doesn't matter since it is only necessary when 
> compiling the binary. You can likely download binaries Alex built just as you 
> can do.

> "Compiling the binary" is funny  pil21, sitting on top of LLVM JIT engine 
> is post JIT'ing all the time during runtime. That thing is profiling and self 
> optimizing code while running! See HotSpot JIT Engine concepts: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotSpot


BULLSHIT. Atleast as far as i can read the source:
https://github.com/picolisp/pil21/blob/master/src/lib/llvm.l 
It is just dumping human readable LLVM-IR into a file which receives an ajead 
of time compilation pass where it compiles the Picolisp language primitives for 
the interpreter

> Starting interpreted, then stepwise compiling and replacing inner loops with 
> machine code, outer loops, ... ? Starting slow, modern JIT engines are 
> getting faster while running. Google V8 Javascript compiler is also working 
> this way. That's why 'warm up' phase is often mentioned with benchmarks: 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=llvm+warm+up+phase


You are plain wrong. LLVM can be used as AoT compiler too without anything 
being a JIT. In fact the most common use case for LLVM is as an ahead-of-time 
(AOT) compiler for a language.

> This is not different than Dynasm depending on LUA. Picolisp does not touch 
> most LLVM code. It just needs the assembler part of it. Translating LLVM-IR 
> to what ever you want is not that hard if you don't want to use LLVM and you 
> can audit the resulting ASM.


> I am not reviewing or auditing 3 million lines of LLVM in my life. Apart from 
> that, China market falls flat now because of US export sanctions.


Congrats than stay on the old pil64 or emu, audit the LLVM-IR assembler, write 
your own LLVM-IR assembler.


Also stop the "China LLVM" talking point. Export control can't apply to code. 
The PGP case showed that ages ago and even if it does, we Europeans don't have 
to care about American export sanctions. As long as the code makes it to Europe 
it can end in China. 

> Wrong business strategy for Germany to use US toolchains any longer.


If you believe so.PԔ � &j)mX�����zV�u�.n7�

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[John Duncan]

Picolisp is interpreted. Even the llvm version is just creating an
interpreter. There is no JIT.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 12:36 Guido Stepken  wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb :
>
> > Read Wikipedia:
> >
> > LLVM allows code to be compiled statically, as it is under the
> traditional GCC system, or left for late-compiling from the IR to machine
> code via just-in-time compilation (JIT)
>
> Wikipedia might have missed the chapter: "Extreme Laziness - Using Compile
> Callbacks to JIT from ASTs".
>
> Since the AST (Abstract Syntax Tree) in any Lisp is changing all the time,
> the JIT engine *has to* post-jit continuously to keep up the full execution
> speed.
>
> That's what will give pil21 a real performance boost over over any 'static
> compiled' implementation.
>
> Means: PicoLisp will continuously check its own AST for changes (diff) and
> then ASAP recompile what's necessary in the background on a second CPU.
>
> But that also means: pil21 "binary" size will become much larger, since it
> will contain the processor specific ASTtoMachine Code parts.
>
> But, indeed, you can also use LLVM and Clang to compile the C version of
> Picolisp as usual, 'statically'. But that's almost pure nonsense, gives you
> no real advantage over e.g. GCC .
>
> You may also compile PicoLisp C version on ployglot (many programming
> languages in one source) GraalVM (Truffle) and observe, how PicoLisp gets
> faster and faster after a certain warm up time. GraalVM (Truffle) is same
> HotSpot post JIT optimization concept.
>
> Have fun!
>
-- 
John Duncan

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Guido Stepken]

Υπάρχουν πάντοτε άνθρωποι που δεν έχουν πρόσβαση. Και δεν ξέρουν καν γιατί
κάνουν αυτό. Ειδικά σε περιόδους μαζικών πολιτικών αλλαγών. Αυτός είναι
επίσης ο λόγος για τον οποίο ο Βαρουφάκης παραιτήθηκε. Αλλά είχε δίκιο με
πολλούς τρόπους.

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos <
yiorgos.adamopou...@gmail.com>:
> Βρίσκω τον τρόπο που γίνεται η συζήτηση αγενή.
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:48 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
>>
>> Je ne veux pas faire sursauter trop tôt nos collègues lecteurs des
États-Unis. Peut-être tu veux attendre quelques semaines de plus jusqu'à ce
que des choses importantes soient décidées au niveau de l'UE.
>>
>> Mais je peux toi assurer que des parties importantes viennent de France.
>>
>> Ce sera une grande surprise pour eux.
>>
>> Amuse-toi bien!
>>
>> > I'm curious, what are those two similar other tools?
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Eric
>> >
>> >>> --
>> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>> >>>
>
>
>
> --
> keep raising the bar
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subjectUnsubscribe
>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb :

> Read Wikipedia:
>
> LLVM allows code to be compiled statically, as it is under the
traditional GCC system, or left for late-compiling from the IR to machine
code via just-in-time compilation (JIT)

Wikipedia might have missed the chapter: "Extreme Laziness - Using Compile
Callbacks to JIT from ASTs".

Since the AST (Abstract Syntax Tree) in any Lisp is changing all the time,
the JIT engine *has to* post-jit continuously to keep up the full execution
speed.

That's what will give pil21 a real performance boost over over any 'static
compiled' implementation.

Means: PicoLisp will continuously check its own AST for changes (diff) and
then ASAP recompile what's necessary in the background on a second CPU.

But that also means: pil21 "binary" size will become much larger, since it
will contain the processor specific ASTtoMachine Code parts.

But, indeed, you can also use LLVM and Clang to compile the C version of
Picolisp as usual, 'statically'. But that's almost pure nonsense, gives you
no real advantage over e.g. GCC .

You may also compile PicoLisp C version on ployglot (many programming
languages in one source) GraalVM (Truffle) and observe, how PicoLisp gets
faster and faster after a certain warm up time. GraalVM (Truffle) is same
HotSpot post JIT optimization concept.

Have fun!

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[cilz]

Le 06/05/2020 à 17:44, Guido Stepken a écrit :
Je ne veux pas faire sursauter trop tôt nos collègues lecteurs des 
États-Unis. Peut-être tu veux attendre quelques semaines de plus 
jusqu'à ce que des choses importantes soient décidées au niveau de l'UE.


Mais je peux toi assurer que des parties importantes viennent de France.

Ce sera une grande surprise pour eux.


Well, let's wait and see if there is any announcement in the coming 
weeks / months (/ Years)?


Eric



>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de 
?subject=Unsubscribe
>>> 

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos]

Βρίσκω τον τρόπο που γίνεται η συζήτηση αγενή.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:48 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
>
> Je ne veux pas faire sursauter trop tôt nos collègues lecteurs des 
> États-Unis. Peut-être tu veux attendre quelques semaines de plus jusqu'à ce 
> que des choses importantes soient décidées au niveau de l'UE.
>
> Mais je peux toi assurer que des parties importantes viennent de France.
>
> Ce sera une grande surprise pour eux.
>
> Amuse-toi bien!
>
> > I'm curious, what are those two similar other tools?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >>> --
> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
> >>>



-- 
keep raising the bar

--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[andreas]

On 06.05.20 17:29, Guido Stepken wrote:
> > Also the size of LLVM doesn't matter since it is only necessary when
> compiling the binary. You can likely download binaries Alex built just
> as you can do.
>
> "Compiling the binary" is funny  pil21, sitting on top of LLVM JIT
> engine is post JIT'ing all the time during runtime. That thing is
> profiling and self optimizing code while running! See HotSpot JIT
> Engine concepts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotSpot
>
Read Wikipedia:

> LLVM allows code to be compiled statically, as it is under the
> traditional GCC system, or left for late-compiling from the IR to
> machine code via just-in-time compilation
>  (JIT)
pil21 is of course statically compiled, one time, resulting in a binary
you can dissect and analyze.
There is no reason for pil21 to make use of JIT.

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Guido Stepken]

Je ne veux pas faire sursauter trop tôt nos collègues lecteurs des
États-Unis. Peut-être tu veux attendre quelques semaines de plus jusqu'à ce
que des choses importantes soient décidées au niveau de l'UE.

Mais je peux toi assurer que des parties importantes viennent de France.

Ce sera une grande surprise pour eux.

Amuse-toi bien!

> I'm curious, what are those two similar other tools?
>
> Best,
>
> Eric
>
>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Joh-Tob Schäg :
>
>> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
portability?
> Do you see any portablity problems:
> https://luajit.org/luajit.html
> iOS obviously *is* supported. Tons of games are using LuaJIT on all kinds
of platforms. Of course, always with DYNASM as JIT IR below.
>
> LUAJIT still requires cpu specific headers as you can see here:
https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/blob/v2.1/src/lj_asm_x86.h

Certainly! But there are many of them for plenty of different CPUs:

https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/blob/v2.1/src/lj_asm_mips.h
https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/blob/v2.1/src/lj_asm_ppc.h
https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/blob/v2.1/src/lj_asm_arm64.h

Each one perhaps 50 pages long, that need to be adapted for supporting new
CPU architecture.

>
> Alex wrote he is tired of having to write meta assembler code for each
platform. I doubt that will be better if has to use someone else's Meta
assembler. Also LuaJIT does not target RISC-V.

That's true so far. Though there a a couple of billion RISC-V cpus out
there now.


> Target LLVM IR means porting it once and being able to target anything
which has a translator.

>> And since when doesn't your C version of Picolisp compile on iOS?
Objective-C is a superset of C with parts of Smalltalk.
>
> You seem really ignorant. Are you unaware that pil32/emu/mini have less
features than pil64 and are slower too due to overhead/resrictions used by
C?

Is slower speed really an issue with pilbox GUI? Certainly not!

> Also the size of LLVM doesn't matter since it is only necessary when
compiling the binary. You can likely download binaries Alex built just as
you can do.

"Compiling the binary" is funny  pil21, sitting on top of LLVM JIT
engine is post JIT'ing all the time during runtime. That thing is profiling
and self optimizing code while running! See HotSpot JIT Engine concepts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotSpot

Starting interpreted, then stepwise compiling and replacing inner loops
with machine code, outer loops, ... ? Starting slow, modern JIT engines are
getting faster while running. Google V8 Javascript compiler is also working
this way. That's why 'warm up' phase is often mentioned with benchmarks:
https://www.google.com/search?q=llvm+warm+up+phase

> This is not different than Dynasm depending on LUA. Picolisp does not
touch most LLVM code. It just needs the assembler part of it. Translating
LLVM-IR to what ever you want is not that hard if you don't want to use
LLVM and you can audit the resulting ASM.

I am not reviewing or auditing 3 million lines of LLVM in my life. Apart
from that, China market falls flat now because of US export sanctions.

Reminder: China is double the size of Europe+USA together. Of course, our
Chinese friends are is looking for alternatives from outside the US.

Wrong business strategy for Germany to use US toolchains any longer.

Best regards, Guido Stepken

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[cilz]

Le 06/05/2020 à 16:38, Guido Stepken a écrit :
> May be you can devise a tiny example to help us (at least the very 
noob like me) figure out what you're meaning with this awesome 
statement "Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason 
about database contents!"


It's all perfectly written down in Alex' documention on pilog:

https://software-lab.de/doc/select.html

Perhaps you should read the *whole documentation* about PicoLisp first.

Done, tkx.
Getting the *whole mindset* of PicoLisp is not easy, because Alex 
weaved into each other, what normaly is sold and mentally recognized 
as separate products: A Programming Language, a Prolog AI, a BTree 
Database Server, a Graph Database, a modern Web Framework ...

T, this really sets PicoLisp apart!


That's, what makes it so highly efficient to program with. 

+1
I've seen only two (complete, covering everything) simlilar other 
tools in my life, that is such efficient to program with.



I'm curious, what are those two similar other tools?

Best,

Eric



>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de 
?subject=Unsubscribe
>> 

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

Certainly Fennel only a proof of concept. But it's easy to understand, you
can add lists and other things within just a few lines by using Lua
primitives, which are Lisp like.

Same with Common Lisp and Scheme. When you read through Common Lisp
language definition, it's a huge book, language definition of Scheme,
consequently based on S-expressions, is just a few pages long.

What brings me to topic of COMPLEXITY. PicoLisp IMHO is feature complete,
is no more complex, than a human can understand and absorb within a couple
of weeks to become a highly efficient and fast problem solver.

And from security point of view, PicoLisp is small enough to get completely
security reviewed by a team with just a few weeks. Today, we have automated
tools doing that in a couple of hours or minutes: See e.g. gcc -fanalyzer
function. A godsend! ;-)

Have fun!



Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Edgaras Šeputis :
> I'll note that fennel seems like severely sub par lisp, not even really
supporting lists... Though there are others, lumen and urn for luaJIT. Not
sure why you keep mentioning fennel, while it seems most popular somehow,
but it is also most clojure like and with seemingly boneheaded list
handling.
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 3:51 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
>>
>> Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Alexander Burger :
>> > On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>> >> Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
comparison
>> >> to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>> >
>> > Useless.
>>
>> Ah, really?
>>
>> > Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
portability?
>>
>> Do you see any portablity problems:
>>
>> https://luajit.org/luajit.html
>>
>> iOS obviously *is* supported. Tons of games are using LuaJIT on all
kinds of platforms. Of course, always with DYNASM as JIT IR below.
>>
>> > I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures.
In fact
>> > *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>> >
>> > And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>>
>> You could have had yesterday. There already is a Lisp on DYNASM, but -
written in Lua: https://fennel-lang.org/
>>
>> Easy to follow that example to get the DYNASM IR right.
>>
>> > Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on
POSIX for
>> > server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me
as
>> > chewing gum for my cat.
>>
>> You simply do never listen. Webassembly programs *do* run server side:
>>
>>
https://wwwinfoworld.com/article/3411496/wasmer-takes-webassembly-server-side.html
>>
>> Sorry Alex, but sometimes you are your own labyrith not seeing the exit.
>>
>> And since when doesn't your C version of Picolisp compile on iOS?
Objective-C is a superset of C with parts of Smalltalk.
>>
>> Have fun!
>>
>> > — Alex
>> >
>> > --
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>> >

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

My friend! The political wind has massively changed from US side. We cannot
go on doing business like 5 months and 6 days ago.

You brains simply haven't noticed yet ...

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Alfonso Villén :
> Hello Guido,
>
>> Alex, go on using LLVM. See you in Guantanamo. (Remember: Meng Wanzhou >
was caught in Canada with US warrant).
>>
>> Unbelievable ignorance
>
> I don't understand what makes you think that Alex is an ignorant.
>
> First of all, I want to thank Alex as John already did. I don't know Alex
and I'm only a hobby programmer (with limited experience in several
languages), but from his work and from the experience and savoir-faire that
that work emits, I can see that he made (and is still making) wise
decisions.
>
> Picolisp is useful for me, but for Alex, it's a way of life. So if he has
choosen LLVM, he must have good reasons for this. Not a random or ignorant
choice.
>
> If you think another way to develop pil21 will be better and Picolisp
really means that much to you, then please, be constructive and help. You
have experience with DynASM, Web Assembly or whatever? You know Picolisp so
deeply that you can build it from scratch using other toolchains? Then show
how *you* would do it, give directions, show some code and offer your
collaboration. Unless you go that way, all you say is blah blah and you're
saying it in a quite unrespectful and selfish manner, by the way. For now,
I'll trust Alex more than I trust you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alfonso
>
> On 6/5/20 15:35, Guido Stepken wrote:
>
> I don't discourage him. I present facts. LLVM contains plenty of AI code,
especially for generating code for NVIDIA chips.
>
> Since January 1st there are export restrictions for AI code to China now.
>
>
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-artificial-intelligence/u-s-government-limits-exports-of-artificial-intelligence-software-idUSKBN1Z21PT
>
> Means: No use of LLVM within China any longer. No use of pil21 with LLVM
JIT in China. Same for many other countries.
>
> Whole world now is rethinking use of US software stacks in general.
>
> Again: "Keep away from US Software Stacks!!!"
>
> Alex, go on using LLVM. See you in Guantanamo. (Remember: Meng Wanzhou
was caught in Canada with US warrant).
>
> Unbelievable ignorance
>
> Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb George-Phillip Orais <
oraisgeorgephil...@gmail.com>:
>> Hi Guido,
>> Thank you for sharing your insights here, I have fun reading them.
>> But please respect Alex decision in using LLVM for pil21, its his choice
and its his programming language, so please stop discouraging him.
>>
>> BR,
>> Geo
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:12 PM John Duncan 
wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Alex,
>>> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you
find a blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the
impression he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was
probably in Java.
>>> Take care!
>>> John
>>> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 07:59 Alexander Burger 
wrote:

 On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
 > Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
comparison
 > to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.

 Useless.

 Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
portability?
 I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures.
In fact
 *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.

 And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.

 Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on
POSIX for
 server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me
as
 chewing gum for my cat.

 — Alex

 --
 UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Duncan

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Guido Stepken]

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb cilz :
>
> Le 06/05/2020 à 15:19, Guido Stepken a écrit :
>
> Sorry, no tutorial handy ... i only have the full code, which i don't
want to publish ...
>
> Too bad!
>
> May be you can devise a tiny example to help us (at least the very noob
like me) figure out what you're meaning with this awesome statement
"Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database
contents!"

It's all perfectly written down in Alex' documention on pilog:

https://software-lab.de/doc/select.html

Perhaps you should read the *whole documentation* about PicoLisp first.

And then do, what the famous German Philospher Arthur Schopenhauer once
said in "The World as Will and Representation":

"Read my books and then, at the end, start again reading from the
beginning".

He was right. After having read through his book, only getting parts of it
into my mind, i discovered plenty of things, i simply couldn't see or had
overseen, when reading it the first time.

Getting the *whole mindset* of PicoLisp is not easy, because Alex weaved
into each other, what normaly is sold and mentally recognized as separate
products: A Programming Language, a Prolog AI, a BTree Database Server, a
Graph Database, a modern Web Framework ...

That's, what makes it so highly efficient to program with. I've seen only
two (complete, covering everything) simlilar other tools in my life, that
is such efficient to program with.

Have fun!

> Hence, am I right if I consider PicoLisp as the root for building a
"deductive database system"?
>
> But Prolog, same as *pilog* is a declarative language, very easy to
learn. What makes pilog unique is, that you can mix it with Lisp.
>
> It's a relatively simple combinatorial problem, that can be divided into
two (well, four) separate problems:
>
> 1st: Find the right, matching boxes to fulfill your 'special' customer's
demands.
>
> 2nd: With the rest of fruits you let pilog reason about, what 'standard
packages' can be rebuilt from that.
>
> 3rd. Delete boxes from problem #1 from your inventory (PicoLisp)
>
> 4th. Add rebuilt boxes to inventory. There might be some fruits left
over. (PicoLisp)
>
> Now your homework! ;-)
>
> yes!
>
> Of course, you can implement it with pure Lisp, too! ;-)
>
> Have fun!
>
>
> Best,
>
> Eric
>
>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Joh-Tob Schäg]

> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is 
> portability?
Do you see any portablity problems:
https://luajit.org/luajit.html
iOS obviously *is* supported. Tons of games are using LuaJIT on all kinds of 
platforms. Of course, always with DYNASM as JIT IR below.

LUAJIT still requires cpu specific headers as you can see here: 
https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/blob/v2.1/src/lj_asm_x86.h

Alex wrote he is tired of having to write meta assembler code for each 
platform. I doubt that will be better if has to use someone else's Meta 
assembler. Also LuaJIT does not target RISC-V.

Target LLVM IR means porting it once and being able to target anything which 
has a translator.


> And since when doesn't your C version of Picolisp compile on iOS? Objective-C 
> is a superset of C with parts of Smalltalk.

You seem really ignorant. Are you unaware that pil32/emu/mini have less 
features than pil64 and are slower too due to overhead/resrictions used by C?

Also the size of LLVM doesn't matter since it is only necessary when compiling 
the binary. You can likely download binaries Alex built just as you can do.
This is not different than Dynasm depending on LUA. Picolisp does not touch 
most LLVM code. It just needs the assembler part of it. Translating LLVM-IR to 
what ever you want is not that hard if you don't want to use LLVM and you can 
audit the resulting ASM.

TL;DR: Shut up until you can show the code. This also applies to your "I did 
some cool distributed pilog thing" if you write some cool software but can't 
share it, don't talk about it on the mailing list.




Ursprüngliche Nachricht  
Von: gstep...@gmail.com
Gesendet: 6. Mai 2020 14:51
An: picolisp@software-lab.de
Antworten: picolisp@software-lab.de
Betreff: Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US 
Export Law?


Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Alexander Burger :
> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>> Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in comparison
>> to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>
> Useless.

Ah, really?

> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is 
> portability?

Do you see any portablity problems:

https://luajit.org/luajit.html

iOS obviously *is* supported. Tons of games are using LuaJIT on all kinds of 
platforms. Of course, always with DYNASM as JIT IR below.

> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures. In fact
> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>
> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.

You could have had yesterday. There already is a Lisp on DYNASM, but - written 
in Lua: https://fennel-lang.org/

Easy to follow that example to get the DYNASM IR right.

> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX for
> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
> chewing gum for my cat.

You simply do never listen. Webassembly programs *do* run server side:

https://www.infoworld.com/article/3411496/wasmer-takes-webassembly-server-side.html

Sorry Alex, but sometimes you are your own labyrith not seeing the exit.

And since when doesn't your C version of Picolisp compile on iOS? Objective-C 
is a superset of C with parts of Smalltalk.

Have fun!

> — Alex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Edgaras Šeputis]

I'll note that fennel seems like severely sub par lisp, not even really
supporting lists... Though there are others, lumen and urn for luaJIT. Not
sure why you keep mentioning fennel, while it seems most popular somehow,
but it is also most clojure like and with seemingly boneheaded list
handling.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 3:51 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Alexander Burger :
> > On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
> >> Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
> comparison
> >> to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
> >
> > Useless.
>
> Ah, really?
>
> > Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
> portability?
>
> Do you see any portablity problems:
>
> https://luajit.org/luajit.html
>
> iOS obviously *is* supported. Tons of games are using LuaJIT on all kinds
> of platforms. Of course, always with DYNASM as JIT IR below.
>
> > I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures.
> In fact
> > *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
> >
> > And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>
> You could have had yesterday. There already is a Lisp on DYNASM, but -
> written in Lua: https://fennel-lang.org/
>
> Easy to follow that example to get the DYNASM IR right.
>
> > Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX
> for
> > server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
> > chewing gum for my cat.
>
> You simply do never listen. Webassembly programs *do* run server side:
>
>
> https://www.infoworld.com/article/3411496/wasmer-takes-webassembly-server-side.html
>
> Sorry Alex, but sometimes you are your own labyrith not seeing the exit.
>
> And since when doesn't your C version of Picolisp compile on iOS?
> Objective-C is a superset of C with parts of Smalltalk.
>
> Have fun!
>
> > — Alex
> >
> > --
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
> >

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Alfonso Villén]

Hello Guido,

> Alex, go on using LLVM. See you in Guantanamo. (Remember: Meng 
Wanzhou > was caught in Canada with US warrant).

>
> Unbelievable ignorance

I don't understand what makes you think that Alex is an ignorant.

First of all, I want to thank Alex as John already did. I don't know 
Alex and I'm only a hobby programmer (with limited experience in several 
languages), but from his work and from the experience and savoir-faire 
that that work emits, I can see that he made (and is still making) wise 
decisions.


Picolisp is useful for me, but for Alex, it's a way of life. So if he 
has choosen LLVM, he must have good reasons for this. Not a random or 
ignorant choice.


If you think another way to develop pil21 will be better and Picolisp 
really means that much to you, then please, be constructive and help. 
You have experience with DynASM, Web Assembly or whatever? You know 
Picolisp so deeply that you can build it from scratch using other 
toolchains? Then show how *you* would do it, give directions, show some 
code and offer your collaboration. Unless you go that way, all you say 
is blah blah and you're saying it in a quite unrespectful and selfish 
manner, by the way. For now, I'll trust Alex more than I trust you.


Regards,

Alfonso

On 6/5/20 15:35, Guido Stepken wrote:
I don't discourage him. I present facts. LLVM contains plenty of AI 
code, especially for generating code for NVIDIA chips.


Since January 1st there are export restrictions for AI code to China now.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-artificial-intelligence/u-s-government-limits-exports-of-artificial-intelligence-software-idUSKBN1Z21PT

Means: No use of LLVM within China any longer. No use of pil21 with 
LLVM JIT in China. Same for many other countries.


Whole world now is rethinking use of US software stacks in general.

Again: "Keep away from US Software Stacks!!!"

Alex, go on using LLVM. See you in Guantanamo. (Remember: Meng Wanzhou 
was caught in Canada with US warrant).


Unbelievable ignorance

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb George-Phillip Orais 
mailto:orais.georgephil...@gmail.com>>:

> Hi Guido,
> Thank you for sharing your insights here, I have fun reading them.
> But please respect Alex decision in using LLVM for pil21, its his 
choice and its his programming language, so please stop discouraging him.

>
> BR,
> Geo
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:12 PM John Duncan > wrote:

>>
>> Hey Alex,
>> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you 
find a blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the 
impression he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that 
was probably in Java.

>> Take care!
>> John
>> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 07:59 Alexander Burger > wrote:

>>>
>>> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>>> > Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in 
comparison

>>> > to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>>>
>>> Useless.
>>>
>>> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is 
portability?
>>> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V 
architectures. In fact

>>> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>>>
>>> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>>>
>>> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on 
POSIX for
>>> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful 
for me as

>>> chewing gum for my cat.
>>>
>>> — Alex
>>>
>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de 
?subject=Unsubscribe

>>
>> --
>> John Duncan 

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

You're absolutely right. After having learned 24 languages in my life now,
i exclusively work with highly sophisticated code generators.

Much higher developed, that just the https://jasonelle.com/ example i
mentioned before. Purely functional, of course. But sometimes i return to C
and inline Assembler (Intel, ARM, Sparc (in my student times), RISC-V)

Java? Never, ever in my life i would touch such crap.

Lisp, I program since AutoCAD 2.6 and Autolisp, a Common Lisp.

You know, why i am a 'blowhard'. Because i can!

Have fun!

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb John Duncan :
> Hey Alex,
> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you find
a blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the impression
he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was probably in
Java.
> Take care!
> John
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 07:59 Alexander Burger  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>> > Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
comparison
>> > to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>>
>> Useless.
>>
>> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
portability?
>> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures.
In fact
>> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>>
>> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>>
>> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX
for
>> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
>> chewing gum for my cat.
>>
>> — Alex
>>
>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
> --
> John Duncan

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

PilBox, yes. Also one of your brilliant ideas ...

Something similar already exists since a couple of years ...
https://jasonette.com/, renamed to https://jasonelle.com/

Some Google guys picked up the idea and made FLUTTER: One code, two
binaries for Android and iOS. Dart Programming Language. Btw.: Works on
Linux Desktop too. Windows haven't tried, not available at the moment.

Also interesting: Draftbit built a highly sophisticated Cloud App Builder
around Flutter. http://draftbit.com

So, your brilliant ideas have become pretty widespread.

Have fun!

Best, Guido

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[cilz]

Le 06/05/2020 à 15:19, Guido Stepken a écrit :
Sorry, no tutorial handy ... i only have the full code, which i don't 
want to publish ...



Too bad!

May be you can devise a tiny example to help us (at least the very noob 
like me) figure out what you're meaning with this awesome statement 
"Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about 
database contents!"


Hence, am I right if I consider PicoLisp as the root for building a 
"deductive database system"?


But Prolog, same as *pilog* is a declarative language, very easy to 
learn. What makes pilog unique is, that you can mix it with Lisp.


It's a relatively simple combinatorial problem, that can be divided 
into two (well, four) separate problems:


1st: Find the right, matching boxes to fulfill your 'special' 
customer's demands.


2nd: With the rest of fruits you let pilog reason about, what 
'standard packages' can be rebuilt from that.


3rd. Delete boxes from problem #1 from your inventory (PicoLisp)

4th. Add rebuilt boxes to inventory. There might be some fruits left 
over. (PicoLisp)


Now your homework! ;-)


yes!

Of course, you can implement it with pure Lisp, too! ;-)

Have fun!



Best,

Eric


> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de 
?subject=Unsubscribe
> 

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Yiorgos [George] Adamopoulos]

Also, I see no problem in, for example, Guido trying to prove the
point by making a PicoLisp clone in the runtime of his choice :) IIRC,
we already have the Ersatz (Java) port of picolisp.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 4:23 PM George-Phillip Orais
 wrote:
>
> Hi Guido,
>
> Thank you for sharing your insights here, I have fun reading them.
>
> But please respect Alex decision in using LLVM for pil21, its his choice and 
> its his programming language, so please stop discouraging him.
>
>
> BR,
> Geo
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:12 PM John Duncan  wrote:
>>
>> Hey Alex,
>>
>> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you find a 
>> blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the impression 
>> he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was probably in 
>> Java.
>>
>> Take care!
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 07:59 Alexander Burger  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>>> > Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in comparison
>>> > to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>>>
>>> Useless.
>>>
>>> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is 
>>> portability?
>>> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures. In 
>>> fact
>>> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>>>
>>> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>>>
>>> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX for
>>> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
>>> chewing gum for my cat.
>>>
>>> — Alex
>>>
>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>
>> --
>> John Duncan



-- 
keep raising the bar

--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

I don't discourage him. I present facts. LLVM contains plenty of AI code,
especially for generating code for NVIDIA chips.

Since January 1st there are export restrictions for AI code to China now.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-artificial-intelligence/u-s-government-limits-exports-of-artificial-intelligence-software-idUSKBN1Z21PT

Means: No use of LLVM within China any longer. No use of pil21 with LLVM
JIT in China. Same for many other countries.

Whole world now is rethinking use of US software stacks in general.

Again: "Keep away from US Software Stacks!!!"

Alex, go on using LLVM. See you in Guantanamo. (Remember: Meng Wanzhou was
caught in Canada with US warrant).

Unbelievable ignorance

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb George-Phillip Orais <
orais.georgephil...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Guido,
> Thank you for sharing your insights here, I have fun reading them.
> But please respect Alex decision in using LLVM for pil21, its his choice
and its his programming language, so please stop discouraging him.
>
> BR,
> Geo
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:12 PM John Duncan  wrote:
>>
>> Hey Alex,
>> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you find
a blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the impression
he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was probably in
Java.
>> Take care!
>> John
>> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 07:59 Alexander Burger 
wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>>> > Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
comparison
>>> > to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>>>
>>> Useless.
>>>
>>> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
portability?
>>> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures.
In fact
>>> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>>>
>>> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>>>
>>> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on
POSIX for
>>> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me
as
>>> chewing gum for my cat.
>>>
>>> — Alex
>>>
>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>
>> --
>> John Duncan

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Guido Stepken]

Sorry, no tutorial handy ... i only have the full code, which i don't want
to publish ...

But Prolog, same as *pilog* is a declarative language, very easy to learn.
What makes pilog unique is, that you can mix it with Lisp.

It's a relatively simple combinatorial problem, that can be divided into
two (well, four) separate problems:

1st: Find the right, matching boxes to fulfill your 'special' customer's
demands.

2nd: With the rest of fruits you let pilog reason about, what 'standard
packages' can be rebuilt from that.

3rd. Delete boxes from problem #1 from your inventory (PicoLisp)

4th. Add rebuilt boxes to inventory. There might be some fruits left over.
(PicoLisp)

Now your homework! ;-)

Of course, you can implement it with pure Lisp, too! ;-)

Have fun!

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb cilz :
> Hi Guido,
>
> I would love to see some (toy?) code example about this if you have
some...
>
> Thanks in advance, best,
>
> Eric
>
> Le 06/05/2020 à 09:27, Guido Stepken a écrit :
>>
>> You all might have heard about 'pilog' a Prolog like AI system within
Picolisp, where you can define rules, describe a situation and ask for
solutions. What can you do with that?
>>
>> Typically, items come bundled in all kinds of packages, repair packages,
addons, ...
>>
>> E.g. We have 30 (all slighly different) meal packages in stock with each
(banana, apple, pear), (cherry, strayberry, apple), (strawberry, banana,
orange) ...
>>
>> All packages having a serial number, only available as complete package,
'all or nothing' - rule.
>>
>> Business, so far, went well. But now we have good customer, ordering 3
packages: (2x banana, 1 apple), (3 x strawberry), (1 orange,2 apples).
>>
>> Now comes the question: What is the minimum number of precustomized
packages i do have to destroy and unlist from the database and how can i
repackage the rest to fit the scheme of custom packages, (re-)adding some
'new' packages (while reusing using old boxes)?
>>
>> No problem for PicoLisp Pilog. You don't even have to program that.
Simply give PicoLisp the rules, and let Pilog reason about it
>>
>> And you even don't have to download all inventory into a Picolisp to
find the perfect solution: ***Picolip Prolog is sitting in the
database!!!***
>>
>> I did implement that for a couple of hundred 'service points' for a huge
manufacturer. Using Picolisp's built-in distributed database cluster. Now
Pilog even can reason across several locations and their local inventory,
saving them *incredible amounts* of money.
>>
>> Of course, they had to learn howto rewrite their rules that change from
day to day. Sometimes there is 'norule' day, e.g. when there is no personel
available to repackage boxes. Pilog then recognizes that and does not
reason across whole cluster database any longer.
>>
>> Picolisp is unbeatable in logistics, far ahead of *any* competitor, for
*any* money. At ZERO cost!!! This little thing is a *genius strike*!
>>
>> Have fun!
>>
>> Best regards, Guido Stepken
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[George-Phillip Orais]

Hi Guido,

Thank you for sharing your insights here, I have fun reading them.

But please respect Alex decision in using LLVM for pil21, its his choice
and its his programming language, so please stop discouraging him.


BR,
Geo




On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:12 PM John Duncan  wrote:

> Hey Alex,
>
> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you find a
> blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the impression
> he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was probably in
> Java.
>
> Take care!
>
> John
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 07:59 Alexander Burger  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>> > Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
>> comparison
>> > to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>>
>> Useless.
>>
>> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
>> portability?
>> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures. In
>> fact
>> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>>
>> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>>
>> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX
>> for
>> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
>> chewing gum for my cat.
>>
>> — Alex
>>
>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>
> --
> John Duncan
>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Alexander Burger]

Hi John,

> Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you find a
> blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the impression
> he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was probably in
> Java.

Thanks a lot John! :)

☺/ A!ex

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[John Duncan]

Hey Alex,

Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your work. I hope you find a
blowhard like Guido amusing and not too irritating. I get the impression
he’s hardly written a line of code in his life, and that was probably in
Java.

Take care!

John

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 07:59 Alexander Burger  wrote:

> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
> > Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
> comparison
> > to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>
> Useless.
>
> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
> portability?
> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures. In
> fact
> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>
> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.
>
> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX
> for
> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
> chewing gum for my cat.
>
> — Alex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
-- 
John Duncan

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Alexander Burger :
> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>> Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in
comparison
>> to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.
>
> Useless.

Ah, really?

> Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is
portability?

Do you see any portablity problems:

https://luajit.org/luajit.html

iOS obviously *is* supported. Tons of games are using LuaJIT on all kinds
of platforms. Of course, always with DYNASM as JIT IR below.

> I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures. In
fact
> *all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.
>
> And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.

You could have had yesterday. There already is a Lisp on DYNASM, but -
written in Lua: https://fennel-lang.org/

Easy to follow that example to get the DYNASM IR right.

> Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX
for
> server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
> chewing gum for my cat.

You simply do never listen. Webassembly programs *do* run server side:

https://www.infoworld.com/article/3411496/wasmer-takes-webassembly-server-side.html

Sorry Alex, but sometimes you are your own labyrith not seeing the exit.

And since when doesn't your C version of Picolisp compile on iOS?
Objective-C is a superset of C with parts of Smalltalk.

Have fun!

> — Alex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: divmod?

[Karol Drożak]

:)
https://youtu.be/mbdXeRBbgDM


pon., 4 maj 2020, 00:25 użytkownik Alexander Shendi (Web.DE) <
alexander.she...@web.de> napisał:

> Isn't Christian Schafmeister the guy attempting to make a Common Lisp
> frontend to the dreaded LLVM infrastructure?
>
> SCNR 😇
>
> Am 3. Mai 2020 23:17:49 MESZ schrieb Guido Stepken :
>>
>> Plain wrong. Christian Schafmeister will teach you the use of Lisp in
>> high(est) end number crunching:
>>
>> https://youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
>>
>> He's the Super Brain behind all the compute stuff of that famous Genomic
>> Reasearch Institute in NY (proteine folding ... Corona) ... ;-)
>>
>> In fact, he's using the AI Lisp language to compose all those mighty
>> C/C++ libraries to new libraries. Means: His Lisp AI is (re-)writing
>> software.
>>
>> I fear, you're a decade behind of what's 'state of the art' in
>> programming! Lisp, until today, is a highly important language. It also
>> optimizes machine code within GCC, generating highest efficient machine
>> code for any CPU in the world  - see MELT, a Lisp dialect:
>>
>> http://www.starynkevitchnet/Basile/gcc-melt/
>> 
>>
>> Binding GSL (GNU Scientific Library) and magic OpenBLAS (searching
>> through huge graph structures in zero time) to PicoLisp is piece of cake

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Alexander Burger]

On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 12:51:33PM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
> Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in comparison
> to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.

Useless.

Sigh! How often have I told here that the main purpose of pil21 is portability?
I need it to build PilBox on iOS, and to support RISC-V architectures. In fact
*all* 64-bit architectures, as I got tired of porting pil64.

And I need it NOW!! Not *perhaps* in ten years.

Also, please shut up with WebAssembly. I need something running on POSIX for
server side applications. Something in the browser is as useful for me as
chewing gum for my cat.

— Alex

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[cilz]

Hi Guido,

I would love to see some (toy?) code example about this if you have some...

Thanks in advance, best,

Eric

Le 06/05/2020 à 09:27, Guido Stepken a écrit :
You all might have heard about 'pilog' a Prolog like AI system within 
Picolisp, where you can define rules, describe a situation and ask for 
solutions. What can you do with that?


Typically, items come bundled in all kinds of packages, repair 
packages, addons, ...


E.g. We have 30 (all slighly different) meal packages in stock with 
each (banana, apple, pear), (cherry, strayberry, apple), (strawberry, 
banana, orange) ...


All packages having a serial number, only available as complete 
package, 'all or nothing' - rule.


Business, so far, went well. But now we have good customer, ordering 3 
packages: (2x banana, 1 apple), (3 x strawberry), (1 orange,2 apples).


Now comes the question: What is the minimum number of precustomized 
packages i do have to destroy and unlist from the database and how can 
i repackage the rest to fit the scheme of custom packages, (re-)adding 
some 'new' packages (while reusing using old boxes)?


No problem for PicoLisp Pilog. You don't even have to program that. 
Simply give PicoLisp the rules, and let Pilog reason about it


And you even don't have to download all inventory into a Picolisp to 
find the perfect solution: ***Picolip Prolog is sitting in the 
database!!!***


I did implement that for a couple of hundred 'service points' for a 
huge manufacturer. Using Picolisp's built-in distributed database 
cluster. Now Pilog even can reason across several locations and their 
local inventory, saving them *incredible amounts* of money.


Of course, they had to learn howto rewrite their rules that change 
from day to day. Sometimes there is 'norule' day, e.g. when there is 
no personel available to repackage boxes. Pilog then recognizes that 
and does not reason across whole cluster database any longer.


Picolisp is unbeatable in logistics, far ahead of *any* competitor, 
for *any* money. At ZERO cost!!! This little thing is a *genius strike*!


Have fun!

Best regards, Guido Stepken





--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

Hi Alex!

Yes! -10 for using LLVM, that falls under US export restrictions (ECRA). AI
software is no longer allowed to export to e.g. China, since January 1st.

So if you have compiled-in a single line of LLVM code into pil21, you're in
real trouble now, because of pilog, which is certainly a kind of AI.

Use Mike's DYNASM JIT Engine. Better, faster, smaller (tiny, in comparison
to LLVM), more portable. He's from Munich.

Have fun!

Best regards, Guido

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb Alexander Burger :
> On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 09:55:08AM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
>> Lisp, as functional language, should
>> better be implemented in a functional language
>
> Point for pil21 :)
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
>

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Alexander Burger]

On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 09:55:08AM +0200, Guido Stepken wrote:
> Lisp, as functional language, should
> better be implemented in a functional language

Point for pil21 :)

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Do free Open Source Foundation's Software Stacks fall under US Export Law?

[Guido Stepken]

There are plenty of free implementations of Lisp language in Pascal, Modula
2/3, Oberon out there.

E.g. https://github.com/bobappleyard/pascal-lisp/blob/master/README

But all that makes no real sense. Lisp, as functional language, should
better be implemented in a functional language, such as Haskell or OCaml:

https://bernsteinbear.com/blog/lisp/00_fundamentals/

At the moment, we are working on a Linux (POSIX) Clone in OCaml
(European!!!). That has started with MirageOS, http://mirage.io
(European!!!)

All i can say is, that by moving everything to OCaml (as Operating System
and Cloud Application Server), (overall) memory footprint now is reduced by
a factor of 25 and speed went up factor 10. Network latencey went
tremendously down, thanks to a TCP/IP Stack implementation in OCaml.

Worth mentioning: Microsoft's F# is a 98% OCaml Clone. Ridiculous!

Picolisp runs on MirageOS ... Funny thing that is: Linux (UNIX) now is just
a (OCaml written) library. When compiling PicoLisp from C sources, you have
to #include that library. So, PicoLisp now directly is sitting on top of a
Hypervisor, an "EXO Kernel". Much faster than on Linux.

Hardware requirements, 800 servers with conventional "US Software Stacks"
(mostly Linux) have come down to 17. That was an eye-opener for me.

Have fun!

Best regards, Guido Stepken

Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb George-Phillip Orais <
orais.georgephil...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Guido,
> Want to hear your thoughts about, what if PicoLisp is implemented in
Pascal or Modula or Oberon? Will it be cool or not?
>
> BR,
> Geo
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 2:46 PM Guido Stepken  wrote:
>>
>> In international law, signing such a contract, as Anaconda Eula is
called "self binding". Those ideas in law go back to John Locke, Francis
Bacon, Thomas Hobbes.
>>
>> British and American law differ between binding contracts and common
law. But in those countries, signing such a contract binds you to their
legal system. Something, what over a long period was disputed about in the
European Union and that finally led to Brexit.
>>
>> http://www.contractsandagreements.co.uk/legally-binding-contracts.html
>>
>> Means: Sign that and you're going to Guantanamo, if you sent a copy of
Anaconda Python Packages to Iran. You get an international warrant. See
Assange, Australian. See Meng Wanzhou, Chinese.
>>
>> But all US export control laws can be overridden by the US president, by
US trade department, US Department of Justice, any time they want.
>>
>> https://www.eff.org/cases/bernstein-v-us-dept-justice
>>
>> Means, you can never know, if something is legal under US (and British)
law when using US "legally owned" (e.g. by Apache Foundation, Linux
Foundation, LLVM foundation) Open Source software ... or not, even if it's
under a "free license". And even if you haven't signed the Anaconda EULA.
Just by using free packages (e.g. with Python pip installer) that are
listed in Anaconda, gets you into conflict with US DoJ.
>>
>> But too many programmers proudly handed over their software to famous US
foundations without knowing, that - from now on - their code falls under US
law, US export restictions.
>>
>> Again i only can repeat: "Keep away from US Software Stacks!"
>>
>> Best regards, Guido Stepken
>>
>> Am Mittwoch, 6. Mai 2020 schrieb :
>> > Hi Guido
>> >
>> > Anaconda is a well known, free Software Installer for Python and R
packages, mostly used under Windows, right?
>> >
>> > And you think, that "free software" packages cannot be restricted by
US ministry of trade or U.S. president, such as happened in Huawei Google
case, right? Plain wrong:
>> >
>> > Quote from:
https://docs.anaconda.com/anaconda-repository/2.23/admin/eula/
>> >
>> > Are you sure you are not just mixing up "Enterprise Edition" and the
FOSS variant ("Individual Edition") ?
>> > To me it looks like the FOSS Anaconda is BSD-licensed, which comes
without any additional EULA or other strings attached.
>> > The EULA you link to belongs obviously to the proprietary product (the
classic "open-core" software business model).
>> >
>> > Additionally I like to add that throwing picolisp database together
with "distributed databases like datomic" into the same category is
misleading, this is hardly the same bucket. PicoLisp database can certainly
be used to build distributed systems, including a datomic-like DBMS, but
picolisp database is certainly not a "plug & play" distributed database
system in the current mainstream sense. There distributed DBMS essentially
means individual servers are abstracted away for the programmer, be it 3 or
3000 servers doesn't make a difference for the programmer using the DBMS -
of course this abstracting on top of networking (which is unreliable) comes
with constraints (e.g. usually no ACID) and a ton of potential issues (some
better, some often not so much mitigated by common distributed DBMS
software). This doesn't apply to PicoLisp database, which offers strict
ACID transactions and gives strong consistency guarantees ev

Picolisp is the only language in the world, that can reason about database contents!

[Guido Stepken]

You all might have heard about 'pilog' a Prolog like AI system within
Picolisp, where you can define rules, describe a situation and ask for
solutions. What can you do with that?

Typically, items come bundled in all kinds of packages, repair packages,
addons, ...

E.g. We have 30 (all slighly different) meal packages in stock with each
(banana, apple, pear), (cherry, strayberry, apple), (strawberry, banana,
orange) ...

All packages having a serial number, only available as complete package,
'all or nothing' - rule.

Business, so far, went well. But now we have good customer, ordering 3
packages: (2x banana, 1 apple), (3 x strawberry), (1 orange,2 apples).

Now comes the question: What is the minimum number of precustomized
packages i do have to destroy and unlist from the database and how can i
repackage the rest to fit the scheme of custom packages, (re-)adding some
'new' packages (while reusing using old boxes)?

No problem for PicoLisp Pilog. You don't even have to program that. Simply
give PicoLisp the rules, and let Pilog reason about it.

And you even don't have to download all inventory into a Picolisp to find
the perfect solution: ***Picolip Prolog is sitting in the database!!!***

I did implement that for a couple of hundred 'service points' for a huge
manufacturer. Using Picolisp's built-in distributed database cluster. Now
Pilog even can reason across several locations and their local inventory,
saving them *incredible amounts* of money.

Of course, they had to learn howto rewrite their rules that change from day
to day. Sometimes there is 'norule' day, e.g. when there is no personel
available to repackage boxes. Pilog then recognizes that and does not
reason across whole cluster database any longer.

Picolisp is unbeatable in logistics, far ahead of *any* competitor, for
*any* money. At ZERO cost!!! This little thing is a *genius strike*!

Have fun!

Best regards, Guido Stepken