Re: PilCon Friday

[O.Hamann]

On 11.11.20 08:07, Alexander Burger wrote:
> third
> Friday this month
>
>Fri 20 Nov 2020 at 16:00 UTC
>
>
> and then
>
>Sat 05 Dec 2020 at  8:00 UTC
>Sat 19 Dec 2020 at 16:00 UTC
>...

fine



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Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

On Sat, Nov 07, 2020 at 06:55:34AM -0600, Erik Gustafson wrote:
> Another vote for Saturdays 8:00 / 16:00 UTC here
> 
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 6:14 AM Davide BERTOLOTTO 
> wrote:
> 
> > Saturdays with the usual schedule sounds good for me

OK, there seems some agreement on Saturdays.

Let's try it!


The *next* PilCon will still be according to the old schedule, thus the third
Friday this month

   Fri 20 Nov 2020 at 16:00 UTC


and then

   Sat 05 Dec 2020 at  8:00 UTC
   Sat 19 Dec 2020 at 16:00 UTC
   ...

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

On Sat, Nov 07, 2020 at 10:30:57PM +0100, pd wrote:
> saturday is not a work day so it's supposed to be better
> to attend but that day have family time attached so it's as hard as working
> day.

That's true. Saturdays are often occupied by other family or routine duties.
As a freelancer, any day is OK for me.


> At the end I think the time heavily depends on location of people attending
> the meeting, which is dynamic enough to set a general date and time, best
> would be a poll in days before the meeting but maybe too hard to manage.

Probably, unless someone writes a (PicoLisp?) tool ;)

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[pd]

About best date and time for PilCon I think keeping two different times,
one in the morning and another in the afternoon is a good compromise for
people from different timezones over the world.

Since I'm european and thus in a european continental timeline, I really
don't care about keep with the actual time or switching to mornings, noon
or evening. The same for day of week because friday is a working day for me
making hard to attend to every meeting but happily I have two chances at
differente hours, saturday is not a work day so it's supposed to be better
to attend but that day have family time attached so it's as hard as working
day.

At the end I think the time heavily depends on location of people attending
the meeting, which is dynamic enough to set a general date and time, best
would be a poll in days before the meeting but maybe too hard to manage. If
people attending is located is hererogenus location will be hard to find a
common time good for all of us.

So, I agree to stay like that or to switch to saturday,  I think it's
important to keep two different time zones to give more chances to attend
(even when I'd prefer same hour at evening ;-)

best regards

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 2:02 PM Erik Gustafson 
wrote:

> Another vote for Saturdays 8:00 / 16:00 UTC here
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 6:14 AM Davide BERTOLOTTO <
> davide.bertolo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Saturdays with the usual schedule sounds good for me
>>
>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Erik Gustafson]

Another vote for Saturdays 8:00 / 16:00 UTC here

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 6:14 AM Davide BERTOLOTTO 
wrote:

> Saturdays with the usual schedule sounds good for me
>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Davide BERTOLOTTO]

Saturdays with the usual schedule sounds good for me

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 09:49 Alexander Burger  wrote:

> Hi Kashyap, Wilhelm,
>
> thanks a lot Wilhelm! I think you protocolled all topics.
>
> And no worries Kashyap, we were all aware that we will repeat some topics
> anyway, whatever comes up.
>
> ☺/ A!ex
>
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>
>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Kashyap, Wilhelm,

thanks a lot Wilhelm! I think you protocolled all topics.

And no worries Kashyap, we were all aware that we will repeat some topics
anyway, whatever comes up.

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

Hi all,

we discussed a little more about schedule at last PilCon.

On Thu, Nov 05, 2020 at 10:53:08PM +, Kevin Ednalino wrote:
> For example, if it's hosted on Saturday at noon
> then it'd be roughly morning for the Americas and evening for Asia.

Really? I would think it is a bit too early (at least for the western part of)
the Americas.


> Month: Week 1 / Week 2
> Nov: Wed/Sat
> Dec: Fri/Sun
> Jan: Wed/Sat

Hmm, one important point is to keep the rules simple.

I think at last PilCon the tendency was toward Saturdays instead of Fridays.
Concerning the time, we should stay with an alternating early and late event.

Should we try it, and keep 8:00 UTC / 16:00 UTC? Or move the time too?

In any case, we agreed that the *next* PilCon will be still according to the
*old* schedule, i.e.

   Fri 20nov20 16:00 UTC

>From December, Saturdays at those times (early on the first Saturday and late 
>on
the third).

If these times are too inconvenient for anyone, please let us know!

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[C K Kashyap]

Thanks for the summary Wilhelm!
Regards,
Kashyap

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 12:33 PM Wilhelm Fitzpatrick  wrote:

> Only topics whose questioners were present were discussed, so we didn't
> talk about the interpreter only approach, holding it as a topic for future
> session.
>
> Alex addressed the "array avoidance" question, explaining the how arrays
> would complicate the core single data type implementation and approach of
> picolisp (that single data type being the cell). Further he talked about
> how most approaches that in other languages fall to arrays by default can
> be handled through picolisp lists, or creating more purpose built data
> structures rather than reaching for an array. Finally he showed how
> picolisp's native code interface can be used to malloc a section of heap
> memory and address it directly to create a direct access array like
> structure if that is absolutely required.
>
> Then the question of how picolisp interacts with Java was discussed, and
> Alex showed examples in the Pilbox, and showed the named pipe mechanism
> used to send commands to the Java side and receive responses back to the
> picolisp world.
>
> Olaf showed off his experimentation of using picolisp to communicate with
> JavaScript running in a browser to dynamically update SVG objects, creating
> animation. Olaf & Alex dug into some of the issues in the original
> experiment, and one source of problems was that the ServerEvent facility
> that Olaf was using only sends a single line at time to the other side.
>
> Olaf's motto for the evening: "when you read the picolisp documentation,
> you have to read every word"
>
> There may have a been a few other small topics that I am failing to
> recollect.
>
> -wilhelm
> On 11/6/20 8:03 AM, C K Kashyap wrote:
>
> As bad an excuse that it may sound, it is the truth - I messed up my alarm
> setting (AM vs PM) :) and missed the meeting.
>
> Could I request someone to please summarize what was discussed?
> particularly about the "interpreter only" approach. If it was not discussed
> then perhaps I can request Alex to write down his thoughts.
>
> Regards,
> Kashyap
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 2:59 PM Kevin Ednalino 
> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I work business hours so Friday mornings I'm generally
>> unavailable (GMT).
>>
>> I think at least one on the weekday in the afternoon/evening and one on
>> the weekend might be the most convenient with the latter more convenient
>> for non-European timezones. For example, if it's hosted on Saturday at noon
>> then it'd be roughly morning for the Americas and evening for Asia.
>>
>> If doing 2x meetings a month, then alternating each month with the
>> weekday/weekend day might maximize availability like if someone is busy
>> during the week and/or busy during the weekend (if busy both times, just
>> have to wait untill the next meeting!):
>>
>> Month: Week 1 / Week 2
>> Nov: Wed/Sat
>> Dec: Fri/Sun
>> Jan: Wed/Sat
>> ...
>>
>> Or even alternate just weekends weekly between Saturday and Sunday.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:42 PM Alexander Burger 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 05, 2020 at 01:23:13PM -0500, r cs wrote:
>>> > Raw video would be welcomed.  The timing of the PilCon can be
>>> challenging
>>> > in some time zones.
>>>
>>> Independent of the recording issue, the current scheduling is not an
>>> absolute
>>> must. I did a proposal initially, and nobody complained, so we stayed
>>> with it.
>>>
>>> Should we consider a change for the future? Perhaps Saturday would be
>>> better
>>> than Friday? And/or some other UTC time(s)? Should we try some democratic
>>> decision process?
>>>
>>> ☺/ A!ex
>>>
>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>>
>>>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Wilhelm Fitzpatrick]

Only topics whose questioners were present were discussed, so we didn't 
talk about the interpreter only approach, holding it as a topic for 
future session.


Alex addressed the "array avoidance" question, explaining the how arrays 
would complicate the core single data type implementation and approach 
of picolisp (that single data type being the cell). Further he talked 
about how most approaches that in other languages fall to arrays by 
default can be handled through picolisp lists, or creating more purpose 
built data structures rather than reaching for an array. Finally he 
showed how picolisp's native code interface can be used to malloc a 
section of heap memory and address it directly to create a direct access 
array like structure if that is absolutely required.


Then the question of how picolisp interacts with Java was discussed, and 
Alex showed examples in the Pilbox, and showed the named pipe mechanism 
used to send commands to the Java side and receive responses back to the 
picolisp world.


Olaf showed off his experimentation of using picolisp to communicate 
with JavaScript running in a browser to dynamically update SVG objects, 
creating animation. Olaf & Alex dug into some of the issues in the 
original experiment, and one source of problems was that the ServerEvent 
facility that Olaf was using only sends a single line at time to the 
other side.


Olaf's motto for the evening: "when you read the picolisp documentation, 
you have to read every word"


There may have a been a few other small topics that I am failing to 
recollect.


-wilhelm

On 11/6/20 8:03 AM, C K Kashyap wrote:
As bad an excuse that it may sound, it is the truth - I messed up my 
alarm setting (AM vs PM) :) and missed the meeting.


Could I request someone to please summarize what was discussed? 
particularly about the "interpreter only" approach. If it was not 
discussed then perhaps I can request Alex to write down his thoughts.


Regards,
Kashyap

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 2:59 PM Kevin Ednalino > wrote:


Personally, I work business hours so Friday mornings I'm generally
unavailable (GMT).

I think at least one on the weekday in the afternoon/evening and
one on the weekend might be the most convenient with the latter
more convenient for non-European timezones. For example, if it's
hosted on Saturday at noon then it'd be roughly morning for the
Americas and evening for Asia.

If doing 2x meetings a month, then alternating each month with the
weekday/weekend day might maximize availability like if someone is
busy during the week and/or busy during the weekend (if busy both
times, just have to wait untill the next meeting!):

Month: Week 1 / Week 2
Nov: Wed/Sat
Dec: Fri/Sun
Jan: Wed/Sat
...

Or even alternate just weekends weekly between Saturday and Sunday.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:42 PM Alexander Burger
mailto:a...@software-lab.de>> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 05, 2020 at 01:23:13PM -0500, r cs wrote:
> Raw video would be welcomed.  The timing of the PilCon can
be challenging
> in some time zones.

Independent of the recording issue, the current scheduling is
not an absolute
must. I did a proposal initially, and nobody complained, so we
stayed with it.

Should we consider a change for the future? Perhaps Saturday
would be better
than Friday? And/or some other UTC time(s)? Should we try some
democratic
decision process?

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[C K Kashyap]

As bad an excuse that it may sound, it is the truth - I messed up my alarm
setting (AM vs PM) :) and missed the meeting.

Could I request someone to please summarize what was discussed?
particularly about the "interpreter only" approach. If it was not discussed
then perhaps I can request Alex to write down his thoughts.

Regards,
Kashyap

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 2:59 PM Kevin Ednalino  wrote:

> Personally, I work business hours so Friday mornings I'm generally
> unavailable (GMT).
>
> I think at least one on the weekday in the afternoon/evening and one on
> the weekend might be the most convenient with the latter more convenient
> for non-European timezones. For example, if it's hosted on Saturday at noon
> then it'd be roughly morning for the Americas and evening for Asia.
>
> If doing 2x meetings a month, then alternating each month with the
> weekday/weekend day might maximize availability like if someone is busy
> during the week and/or busy during the weekend (if busy both times, just
> have to wait untill the next meeting!):
>
> Month: Week 1 / Week 2
> Nov: Wed/Sat
> Dec: Fri/Sun
> Jan: Wed/Sat
> ...
>
> Or even alternate just weekends weekly between Saturday and Sunday.
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:42 PM Alexander Burger 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 05, 2020 at 01:23:13PM -0500, r cs wrote:
>> > Raw video would be welcomed.  The timing of the PilCon can be
>> challenging
>> > in some time zones.
>>
>> Independent of the recording issue, the current scheduling is not an
>> absolute
>> must. I did a proposal initially, and nobody complained, so we stayed
>> with it.
>>
>> Should we consider a change for the future? Perhaps Saturday would be
>> better
>> than Friday? And/or some other UTC time(s)? Should we try some democratic
>> decision process?
>>
>> ☺/ A!ex
>>
>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>
>>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Kevin Ednalino]

Personally, I work business hours so Friday mornings I'm generally
unavailable (GMT).

I think at least one on the weekday in the afternoon/evening and one on the
weekend might be the most convenient with the latter more convenient for
non-European timezones. For example, if it's hosted on Saturday at noon
then it'd be roughly morning for the Americas and evening for Asia.

If doing 2x meetings a month, then alternating each month with the
weekday/weekend day might maximize availability like if someone is busy
during the week and/or busy during the weekend (if busy both times, just
have to wait untill the next meeting!):

Month: Week 1 / Week 2
Nov: Wed/Sat
Dec: Fri/Sun
Jan: Wed/Sat
..

Or even alternate just weekends weekly between Saturday and Sunday.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:42 PM Alexander Burger  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 05, 2020 at 01:23:13PM -0500, r cs wrote:
> > Raw video would be welcomed.  The timing of the PilCon can be challenging
> > in some time zones.
>
> Independent of the recording issue, the current scheduling is not an
> absolute
> must. I did a proposal initially, and nobody complained, so we stayed with
> it.
>
> Should we consider a change for the future? Perhaps Saturday would be
> better
> than Friday? And/or some other UTC time(s)? Should we try some democratic
> decision process?
>
> ☺/ A!ex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Davide BERTOLOTTO]

For me later in the evening after 17-18 CET would be Better.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 19:41 Alexander Burger  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 05, 2020 at 01:23:13PM -0500, r cs wrote:
> > Raw video would be welcomed.  The timing of the PilCon can be challenging
> > in some time zones.
>
> Independent of the recording issue, the current scheduling is not an
> absolute
> must. I did a proposal initially, and nobody complained, so we stayed with
> it.
>
> Should we consider a change for the future? Perhaps Saturday would be
> better
> than Friday? And/or some other UTC time(s)? Should we try some democratic
> decision process?
>
> ☺/ A!ex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

On Thu, Nov 05, 2020 at 01:23:13PM -0500, r cs wrote:
> Raw video would be welcomed.  The timing of the PilCon can be challenging
> in some time zones.

Independent of the recording issue, the current scheduling is not an absolute
must. I did a proposal initially, and nobody complained, so we stayed with it.

Should we consider a change for the future? Perhaps Saturday would be better
than Friday? And/or some other UTC time(s)? Should we try some democratic
decision process?

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[r cs]

Raw video would be welcomed.  The timing of the PilCon can be challenging
in some time zones.

Cheers,
rcs

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 1:09 PM Edgaras Šeputis  wrote:

> Yes, please, find some way to record it. Even if fully unedited and
> unstructured. One can download video from youtube and do quick seeks to
> find stuff.
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 9:14 AM C K Kashyap  wrote:
>
>> While at it, it would be good to touch on the "interpreter only" approach
>> of PicoLisp. It is objectively simpler than an interpreter AND compiler
>> implementation. However, I would love for some expansion on the explanation
>> of "True equivalence of code and data". Also, is there any update to the
>> view on performance in the context of new machines.
>>
>> Would it be possible to record these?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kashyap
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 8:32 AM Alexander Burger 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alex,
>>>
>>> > For me the greatest obstacle in using picolisp is the lack of arrays.
>>> Let's
>>> > talk about what I'm doing wrong and why I don't need them!
>>>
>>> Yes, good idea. This is a valid and common question.
>>>
>>> Maybe, as a warm-up, you could also check "Array Abstinence" at
>>>
>>>https://picolisp.com/wiki/?arrayabstinence
>>>
>>> ☺/ A!ex
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>

-- 
*Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin. *[Irish Gaelic]
(There is no fireside like your own fireside.)

Re: PilCon Friday

[Edgaras Šeputis]

Yes, please, find some way to record it. Even if fully unedited and
unstructured. One can download video from youtube and do quick seeks to
find stuff.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 9:14 AM C K Kashyap  wrote:

> While at it, it would be good to touch on the "interpreter only" approach
> of PicoLisp. It is objectively simpler than an interpreter AND compiler
> implementation. However, I would love for some expansion on the explanation
> of "True equivalence of code and data". Also, is there any update to the
> view on performance in the context of new machines.
>
> Would it be possible to record these?
>
> Regards,
> Kashyap
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 8:32 AM Alexander Burger 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> > For me the greatest obstacle in using picolisp is the lack of arrays.
>> Let's
>> > talk about what I'm doing wrong and why I don't need them!
>>
>> Yes, good idea. This is a valid and common question.
>>
>> Maybe, as a warm-up, you could also check "Array Abstinence" at
>>
>>https://picolisp.com/wiki/?arrayabstinence
>>
>> ☺/ A!ex
>>
>> --
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>>
>

Re: PilCon Friday

[O.Hamann]

On 04.11.20 11:55, Alexander Burger wrote:
>  we'll meet at 8:00 UTC.
Because of the time change, it's already at 9:00 central european time,
right?

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Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Kashyap,

> While at it, it would be good to touch on the "interpreter only" approach
> of PicoLisp. It is objectively simpler than an interpreter AND compiler
> implementation. However, I would love for some expansion on the explanation
> of "True equivalence of code and data". Also, is there any update to the
> view on performance in the context of new machines.

OK, noted. We can discuss this.

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[C K Kashyap]

While at it, it would be good to touch on the "interpreter only" approach
of PicoLisp. It is objectively simpler than an interpreter AND compiler
implementation. However, I would love for some expansion on the explanation
of "True equivalence of code and data". Also, is there any update to the
view on performance in the context of new machines.

Would it be possible to record these?

Regards,
Kashyap

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 8:32 AM Alexander Burger  wrote:

> Hi Alex,
>
> > For me the greatest obstacle in using picolisp is the lack of arrays.
> Let's
> > talk about what I'm doing wrong and why I don't need them!
>
> Yes, good idea. This is a valid and common question.
>
> Maybe, as a warm-up, you could also check "Array Abstinence" at
>
>https://picolisp.com/wiki/?arrayabstinence
>
> ☺/ A!ex
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Alex,

> For me the greatest obstacle in using picolisp is the lack of arrays. Let's
> talk about what I'm doing wrong and why I don't need them!

Yes, good idea. This is a valid and common question.

Maybe, as a warm-up, you could also check "Array Abstinence" at

   https://picolisp.com/wiki/?arrayabstinence

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Shendi]

Hi folks,

For me the greatest obstacle in using picolisp is the lack of arrays. Let's 
talk about what I'm doing wrong and why I don't need them!

Stay safe,

the other Alex

Am 4. November 2020 11:55:44 MEZ schrieb Alexander Burger 
:
>Hi all,
>
>next Friday (Nov 6th) is PilCon again!
>
>   https://meeting.itship.ch/PilCon
>
>As it is the first Friday of the month, we'll meet at 8:00 UTC.
>
>Perhaps we should talk about more basic issues this time?
>Any newcomer's questions should be welcome.
>
>☺/ A!ex
>
>
>-- 
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-- 
Ceci n'est pas un courriel. 

Re: PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Davide,

> practices in error handling (how to catch and throw errors properly)

Good, noted :)

☺/ A!ex

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Re: PilCon Friday

[Davide BERTOLOTTO]

I am not sure if I'll be able to join, but would be good to hear about best
practices in error handling (how to catch and throw errors properly)

Regards,
Davide

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 12:03 Alexander Burger  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> next Friday (Nov 6th) is PilCon again!
>
>https://meeting.itship.ch/PilCon
>
> As it is the first Friday of the month, we'll meet at 8:00 UTC.
>
> Perhaps we should talk about more basic issues this time?
> Any newcomer's questions should be welcome.
>
> ☺/ A!ex
>
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
>

PilCon Friday

[Alexander Burger]

Hi all,

next Friday (Nov 6th) is PilCon again!

   https://meeting.itship.ch/PilCon

As it is the first Friday of the month, we'll meet at 8:00 UTC.

Perhaps we should talk about more basic issues this time?
Any newcomer's questions should be welcome.

☺/ A!ex


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