D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[David Edmundson]

davidedmundson resigned from this revision.
davidedmundson added a comment.


  My opinion on top-down "lets shuffle things" remains the same.
  
  However, I am happy to approve iterative changes. I can see how this is a 
prerequisite to renaming "Workspace Theme" which seems to make sense, given 
it's not under the group workspace, and we're sending mixed messages.
  
  I don't object to this particular patch.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Björn Feber]

GB_2 added a comment.


  Should we really wait until those are merged and not have the new layout in 
Plasma 5.16? Merging these will take quite some time and I don't see how it 
would make a difference layout-wise.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Björn Feber]

GB_2 added a comment.


  Ping

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Björn Feber]

GB_2 added a comment.


  Ping

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Björn Feber]

GB_2 added a comment.


  In D18419#446564 , @davidedmundson 
wrote:
  
  > From my last comment
  >
  > >>   Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style 
and GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  >
  >
  >
  > > This is by /far/ the most important step to do before shuffling top 
levels about. Otherwise you don't know what we're shuffling.
  
  
  But we know what will be merged and it won't make a difference for this 
layout: T8871 
  
  - KDE & Qt Applications + GNOME & GTK Applications
  - Emoticons + Icons

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[David Edmundson]

davidedmundson added a comment.


  From my last comment
  
  >>   Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style and 
GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  
  
  
  > This is by /far/ the most important step to do before shuffling top levels 
about. Otherwise you don't know what we're shuffling.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  In D18419#446142 , @GB_2 wrote:
  
  > In D18419#400163 , 
@davidedmundson wrote:
  >
  > > > Improve text on existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  > >
  > > After this.
  > >
  > > > Re-arrange weird layouts for existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the 
HIG
  > >
  > > After this.
  > >
  > > > Port all QWidgets KCMs to QML
  > >
  > > I don't especially care, though it's often the most effective way to do 
the previous step. It's an effort to compromise. If I had wanted to block this 
forever, I would be insisting on this.
  > >
  > > > Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style and 
GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  > >
  > > This is by /far/ the most important step to do before shuffling top 
levels about. Otherwise you don't know what we're shuffling.
  >
  >
  > All Appearance KCMs are polished and conform the HIG now.
  >  We have a plan here: T8871 
  >  I think we should go ahead with this now.
  
  
  @davidedmundson do you approve?

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Björn Feber]

GB_2 added a comment.


  In D18419#400163 , @davidedmundson 
wrote:
  
  > > Improve text on existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  >
  > After this.
  >
  > > Re-arrange weird layouts for existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  >
  > After this.
  >
  > > Port all QWidgets KCMs to QML
  >
  > I don't especially care, though it's often the most effective way to do the 
previous step. It's an effort to compromise. If I had wanted to block this 
forever, I would be insisting on this.
  >
  > > Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style and 
GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  >
  > This is by /far/ the most important step to do before shuffling top levels 
about. Otherwise you don't know what we're shuffling.
  
  
  All Appearance KCMs are polished and conform the HIG now.
  We have a plan here: T8871 
  I think we should go ahead with this now.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Björn Feber]

GB_2 added a comment.


  I think we should really move the LnF KCM to the top level now since it 
affects everything. Doing that is safe IMO.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[David Edmundson]

davidedmundson added a comment.


  > Improve text on existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  
  After this.
  
  > Re-arrange weird layouts for existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  
  After this.
  
  > Port all QWidgets KCMs to QML
  
  I don't especially care, though it's often the most effective way to do the 
previous step. It's an effort to compromise. If I had wanted to block this 
forever, I would be insisting on this.
  
  > Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style and 
GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  
  This is by /far/ the most important step to do before shuffling top levels 
about. Otherwise you don't know what we're shuffling.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  In D18419#400112 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > That's good to hear! I'm glad we're on the same page. Let's make sure our 
plans in T8871: Systematic KCM reorganisation 
 reflect the consensus of a diverse set of 
opinions so we don't wind up needing to re-do it in the future.
  
  
  Great! :D

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  That's good to hear! I'm glad we're on the same page. Let's make sure our 
plans in T8871: Systematic KCM reorganisation 
 reflect the consensus of a diverse set of 
opinions so we don't wind up needing to re-do it in the future.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  In D18419#399881 , @abetts wrote:
  
  > In D18419#397699 , @ngraham 
wrote:
  >
  > > I'm trying to get a sense of when we should do this.
  > >
  > > 1. Improve text on existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  > > 2. Re-arrange weird layouts for existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the 
HIG
  > > 3. Port all QWidgets KCMs to QML
  > > 4. Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style 
and GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  > >
  > >   Between which items should this re-org be located?
  >
  >
  > I my mind, it would be #5 since we know that through the porting and 
improvements we make to the kcms, we end up making them look vastly different, 
in some cases. This makes it so that a KCM doesn't really belong to the same 
category anymore. We also discovered that we have a few KCMs with just a couple 
of options that would make them move to a new category. That would change the 
organization again.
  
  
  You're debating me on something I am not suggesting. I am not saying "stop 
reorganization, do it only just once". I am saying, let's take a piecemeal 
approach, little by little (which is our only option, really) and let users be 
eased into a new organization. I hope that's clear. What I am also saying is 
that it is best to take this reorganization piecemeal approach right now and 
come to a conclusion with it. One that can last for years. In essence, take the 
step by step reorg now. However, once we complete that work, we should hold off 
from reorganizations afterwards.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  Thanks @abetts, I appreciate the support, but I feel like it should not be 
for the reason that "the wave is to reorganize right now". This has nothing to 
to with popularity or momentum; it's because the reasons previously given for 
waiting wait are not valid. We cannot spare our users from churn and 
incremental changes that break muscle memory and invalidate documentation 
because we lack the resources and long release cycles necessary to do the one 
thing that would avoid that: making all changes in the span of a single 
release. Because we don't have that option, we are *already * doing those 
things every time we port KCMs one-at-a-time, change strings, even improve 
icons! Waiting for the re-org on the grounds that we want to avoid burdening 
our users with constant change things does not make sense because we are 
already doing this with every release. In fact, there is no option not to; our 
fast release cycles and limited resources make it impossible.
  
  I do agree that it's important to make the minimum number of changes to avoid 
jerking users around and keep the churn as low as possible. However that's not 
an argument for waiting years and years to do this (or anything), it's an 
argument for ensuring that we make high-quality, well-considered changes that 
do not need to be reverted later. I encourage anybody who's nervous about this 
to participate in T8871: Systematic KCM reorganisation 
, which is where we're coming up with the 
plan. The more people who participate in that process, more the conclusion will 
reflect a consensus view that avoids controversy and and the impulse to 
redesign--which are after all signs and symptoms that the original design was 
not good enough.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  In D18419#397699 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > I'm trying to get a sense of when we should do this.
  >
  > 1. Improve text on existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  > 2. Re-arrange weird layouts for existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  > 3. Port all QWidgets KCMs to QML
  > 4. Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style and 
GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  >
  >   Between which items should this re-org be located?
  
  
  I my mind, it would be #5 since we know that through the porting and 
improvements we make to the kcms, we end up making them look vastly different, 
in some cases. This makes it so that a KCM doesn't really belong to the same 
category anymore. We also discovered that we have a few KCMs with just a couple 
of options that would make them move to a new category. That would change the 
organization again.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Björn Feber]

GB_2 added a comment.


  Ping?

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  I'm trying to get a sense of when we should do this.
  
  1. Improve text on existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  2. Re-arrange weird layouts for existing QWidgets KCMs to conform to the HIG
  3. Port all QWidgets KCMs to QML
  4. Merge various KCMs together (e.g. Icons and Emoticons, Widget Style and 
GNOME Applications Style (GTK))
  
  Between which items should this re-org be located?

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[David Edmundson]

davidedmundson added a comment.


  To clarify one thing, I didn't say "porting". The original task was to go 
through all of them unifying them, rethinking design and following Fabian's new 
HIG as well as making sure all options are in the right place, etc.. I 
personally don't particularly care too much which tech is used.
  
  From that POV there are waay more changes this release, especially Björn's 
work with the title casing.
  
  It seems like it'll require enormous amounts of work because enormous amounts 
of work are the only thing that will deliver anything with any substance.
  
  > I don't see what harm it does to implement the parts of this re-organization
  
  It breaks existing user habits as well as breaking every 
manual/documentation/help post on the internet.
  Obviously that has to happen occasionally, but it's not a move to be done 
lightly.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  I am not opposed to a reorg as long as it doesn't touch the KCMs, but be 
aware that you "might" have to reorg again as we port KCMs. So, do you prefer 
to do it, potentially twice, or just once?

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  That's true, and we discussed this a lot in the VDG channel. The problem is 
that such a condition will in practice result in delaying this re-ogranization 
practically indefinitely.
  
  https://phabricator.kde.org/tag/plasma_kcm_redesign/ lists 42 KCMs that 
require porting (44 if you count the ones with "kinda done" in the title). 
That's an enormous amount of work. The 5.15 Plasma release contains one ported 
KCM. Say that we focus all of our resources on this and port five KCMs per 
plasma release, that's still delaying this for nine Plasma releases, or over 
three years. ...By which time, Qt 6 will have been released and probably a good 
chunk of our efforts will be on porting to Qt 6 rather than porting KCMs. The 
re-org will just never get done.
  
  I don't see what harm it does to implement the parts of this re-organization 
that don't require merging KCMs. Once all the KCMs are ported, we can do those 
merges at that time, right? For example probably Emoticons will be collapsed 
into Icons, GTK Application Style will be collapsed into Widget style, and so 
on. In practice I don't see how those kinds of merges would be harmed by doing 
this re-organization for Plasma 5.16.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout

[David Edmundson]

davidedmundson requested changes to this revision.
davidedmundson added a comment.
This revision now requires changes to proceed.


  We have all agreed before that we will not do any top-down shuffling until 
all the work updating KCMs bottom-up has been completed. It's documented in 
that linked thread. That ground-up work has not finished.

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D18419: Adjust some KCMs to implement new Appearance section layout [1/3]

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham created this revision.
ngraham added reviewers: VDG, Plasma.
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ngraham requested review of this revision.

REVISION SUMMARY
  This is patch one out of three in support of the new Appearance section 
layout decided upon on in T8871: Systematic KCM reorganisation 
.
  
  In this patch, the ordering of some KCMs is changed, a few are moved out of 
the Workspace Theme category, and some names and comments are changed.

TEST PLAN
  F6558679: New appearance section 

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AFFECTED FILES
  kcms/cursortheme/kcm_cursortheme.desktop
  kcms/desktoptheme/kcm_desktoptheme.desktop
  kcms/ksplash/kcm_splashscreen.desktop
  kcms/lookandfeel/kcm_lookandfeel.desktop

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