Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Kevin Krammer]

On Wednesday, 2015-12-23, 17:08:42, Mark Gaiser wrote:

> just the noto fonts, that is apparently not the case  As it currently
> stands, installing the font package breaks (read cripples it, it's still
> readable) chrome rendering on archlinux. Archlinux itself is not at fault
> here, they do exactly what one expects, the noto package from the official
> site gets installed as is.

If installing the font package causes the breakage and uninstalling fixes it, 
then clearly the font package is the problem, no?

Cheers,
Kevin

-- 
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring


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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Johan Ouwerkerk]

>
> So the noto fonts are not to blame, just the noto package is.
> That does match with what i said and a couple of people said in here, i just
> didn't expect it to end up this way.
> - I've said: "just having the fonts installed cripples chrome"
> - Some in here: "The fonts are fine and the best choice there is"
>
> I'm quite happy i know that now. This means that i can fiddle with
> fontconfig settings and just blacklist those that are installed by the noto
> package, but are not the noto fonts.
> And that means i can drop my fork!
>
> KDE - plasma - should most certainly clarify what it means by noto and
> inform distribution packagers of that. You seemingly expect that noto is
> just the noto fonts, that is apparently not the case  As it currently
> stands, installing the font package breaks (read cripples it, it's still
> readable) chrome rendering on archlinux. Archlinux itself is not at fault
> here, they do exactly what one expects, the noto package from the official
> site gets installed as is. Period. The package just installs fonts that mess
> things up (Arimo, Cousine, and Timos) that need to be blacklisted and aren't
> by default.
>

From the perspective of the upstream: KDE doesn't really care what
fonts you have installed. KDE just needs something sane to integrate
visually with their design, hence choice for Noto as default.

At that point it becomes the case that as far as KDE is concerned
there's (by default) a dependency on "something which will provide you
the Noto fonts". How exactly those are packaged up is really the
distribution's problem/business to sort out. For example on Debian the
KDE packages pull in fonts-noto-hinted by default which contains just
Noto files.

Moreover it is not KDE's responsiblity to set a packaging policy for
these fonts as they are an upstream. It would be rather like KDE
deciding how X libs ought to be packaged up. (Where in the case of
Debian there's about 3 'X' packages in total and a minimal X server
can be installed without /usr/bin/X being provided by default).

So it's really down to "how much work/effort is the distro willing to
invest towards proper packaging and integration". In the case of Arch
it's not as much as Debian because the user is expected to sort things
out/configure the system themselves, and a correspondingly greater
effort is spent in maintaining their excellent wiki instead.
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Philipp A.  wrote:

> Sebastian Kügler  schrieb am Di., 22. Dez. 2015 um
> 17:13 Uhr:
>
>> Avoiding top-posting makes your emails a bit easier to read.  I took the
>> liberty to rearrange.
>>
>
> if i have only one paragraph to reply to i can’t be bothered to click the
> “full editor” button
>
> KDE doesn't ship nor install the fonts that bother you, we can't do
>> anything
>> about it.
>>
>
> sure, i just wanted to get your input on how to solve it.
>
> and maybe you could clarify what fonts KDE depends on. in my
> understanding, that’s not “the contents of the noto-fonts repo”, but instead
>
>- all fonts in that repo of the “Noto” font family
>- the Noto CJK fonts (or not?)
>- Noto Emoji
>
> maybe you could specify that somewhere?
>
> best, philipp
>
So the noto fonts are not to blame, just the noto package is.
That does match with what i said and a couple of people said in here, i
just didn't expect it to end up this way.
- I've said: "just having the fonts installed cripples chrome"
- Some in here: "The fonts are fine and the best choice there is"

I'm quite happy i know that now. This means that i can fiddle with
fontconfig settings and just blacklist those that are installed by the noto
package, but are not the noto fonts.
And that means i can drop my fork!

KDE - plasma - should most certainly clarify what it means by noto and
inform distribution packagers of that. You seemingly expect that noto is
just the noto fonts, that is apparently not the case  As it currently
stands, installing the font package breaks (read cripples it, it's still
readable) chrome rendering on archlinux. Archlinux itself is not at fault
here, they do exactly what one expects, the noto package from the official
site gets installed as is. Period. The package just installs fonts that
mess things up (Arimo, Cousine, and Timos) that need to be blacklisted and
aren't by default.
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Philipp A.]

Sebastian Kügler  schrieb am Di., 22. Dez. 2015 um 17:13 Uhr:

> Avoiding top-posting makes your emails a bit easier to read.  I took the
> liberty to rearrange.
>

if i have only one paragraph to reply to i can’t be bothered to click the
“full editor” button

KDE doesn't ship nor install the fonts that bother you, we can't do anything
> about it.
>

sure, i just wanted to get your input on how to solve it.

and maybe you could clarify what fonts KDE depends on. in my understanding,
that’s not “the contents of the noto-fonts repo”, but instead

   - all fonts in that repo of the “Noto” font family
   - the Noto CJK fonts (or not?)
   - Noto Emoji

maybe you could specify that somewhere?

best, philipp
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Sebastian Kügler]

Avoiding top-posting makes your emails a bit easier to read.  I took the 
liberty to rearrange.

> Sebastian Kügler  schrieb am Di., 22. Dez. 2015 um 15:32 Uhr:
> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 14:03:19 Philipp A. wrote:
> > all of those individually are perfectly resonable decisions, so without it
> > being anyone’s fault, i’m forced to fiddle with my fontconfig to blacklist
> > the three metric alias fonts if i don’t want to see it.
> 
> That sounds like you want to talk to your packagers?

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 15:15:26 Philipp A. wrote:
> i did that, but they saw no problem. (i linked to the arch bug report in my
> previous mail)
> 
> as you can see in the two linked bug report, i think the two correct places
> in which is could be fixed is the repo and the packaging. i’ll get back to
> the packagers when i have an answer in the repo bug which is some variant
> of “lolno”

KDE doesn't ship nor install the fonts that bother you, we can't do anything 
about it.
-- 
sebas

Sebastian Kügler|http://vizZzion.org| http://kde.org

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Philipp A.]

i did that, but they saw no problem. (i linked to the arch bug report in my
previous mail)

as you can see in the two linked bug report, i think the two correct places
in which is could be fixed is the repo and the packaging. i’ll get back to
the packagers when i have an answer in the repo bug which is some variant
of “lolno”

Sebastian Kügler  schrieb am Di., 22. Dez. 2015 um 15:32 Uhr:

> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 14:03:19 Philipp A. wrote:
> > all of those individually are perfectly resonable decisions, so without
> it
> > being anyone’s fault, i’m forced to fiddle with my fontconfig to
> blacklist
> > the three metric alias fonts if i don’t want to see it.
>
> That sounds like you want to talk to your packagers?
> --
> sebas
>
> Sebastian Kügler|http://vizZzion.org| http://kde.org
>
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 14:03:19 Philipp A. wrote:
> all of those individually are perfectly resonable decisions, so without it
> being anyone’s fault, i’m forced to fiddle with my fontconfig to blacklist
> the three metric alias fonts if i don’t want to see it.

That sounds like you want to talk to your packagers?
-- 
sebas

Sebastian Kügler|http://vizZzion.org| http://kde.org

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Philipp A.]

there is one part of this issue that bugs me as well, but it’s rather an
unfortunate coincidence than anything else:

   - KDE requires Noto as a baseline default font. that’s fine as nobody
   forces me to use it.
   - the freetype project ships a metric-aliases config that defines a
   number of aliases for common fonts such as arial and helvetica, among them
   Arimo, Cousine, and Timos as aliases for some microsoft fonts i don’t like.
   that’s fine because i don’t have to install the alias fonts.
   - google have a noto-fonts repo containing Noto fonts and Arimo,
   Cousine, and Timos .
   that’s … weird, but they can of course do what they want in their repo.
   - arch directly packages that repo’s content as noto-fonts without
   excluding the three non-noto fonts
   , which is fine because that’s
   what the repo and font distribution package is called
   - the frameworkintegration package depends on “noto-fonts”, which is
   fine because it’s the only Noto fonts package availabe for arch.

all of those individually are perfectly resonable decisions, so without it
being anyone’s fault, i’m forced to fiddle with my fontconfig to blacklist
the three metric alias fonts if i don’t want to see it.

:(

Takahiro HASHIMOTO  schrieb am Di., 22. Dez. 2015 um
13:53 Uhr:

> Hi,
>
> I feel like the same as Aleix.
> For me, as a part of CJK lang and fonts users, changing font settings is
> one of the  highest priority work when I install fresh Plasma emvironment (
> and when removing .config/* :P ) even though Noto is set to default.
>
> I think the Plasma dev and design team take a choice which is acceptable
> for users widely as default. I think the proposal would be welcomed which
> makes fonts handling better than Noto for widely user's benefit, not
> personal like/dislikeness.
>
> Takahiro
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Takahiro HASHIMOTO]

Hi,

I feel like the same as Aleix.
For me, as a part of CJK lang and fonts users, changing font settings is
one of the  highest priority work when I install fresh Plasma emvironment (
and when removing .config/* :P ) even though Noto is set to default.

I think the Plasma dev and design team take a choice which is acceptable
for users widely as default. I think the proposal would be welcomed which
makes fonts handling better than Noto for widely user's benefit, not
personal like/dislikeness.

Takahiro
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Jens Reuterberg]

Hello,
concerning fonts - the choice of fonts is always a tricky call. Aside from an 
exact, and more feature complete version of Oxygen which sadly doesn't exist, 
Noto is the perfect choice for us.

It's a very well made standardized font and the only other contender was the 
Firefox Fira IIRC and that had other issues (as in being to visually tied to 
Firefox and Mozilla where as Noto was not visibly connected to Google).

As for the technical bits I can't reply because that is sadly not my forté, as 
for the visuals I am sorry that you experience these problems and as someone 
who doesn't experience them and can't duplicate them there is a large issue 
here from a visual design bug standard.
But from a design perspective the work done on the Noto Font is top class 
meassured by any metric available and it also provides a good testing ground 
for the font as that font is present in a very very large chunk of places.
You claim that it is unusable on larger screens except smaller form factors 
like mobiles can easily be argued by the very same reasoning why we picked a 
well liked, well made and standard sans font like Noto in the first place. It 
exists on many many machines. 

I realize this isn't the answer but as you are well aware we give every single 
option possible from our POV to the end user via distros to change the font, 
to edit it out. The size is negligent by modern standards, the choice 
available and the choice of Noto as a standard font is a well founded one 
without any clear alternatives that cover as many different symbols and 
alphabetical variants as that. 
We haven't forced anything down anyones throat.

Now many of the more technically adept people have fairly replied, repeating 
the fact that from a technical standpoint no one is forcing you to use 
anything. But that again is their debate with you, not mine.
Since no better alternatives are presented (if you know a font that is seeing 
more active upkeep, with as good a spread or better and with more suitability 
as a standard font - this is your time to speak up), the choice of Noto was a 
necessity and one made carefully with plenty of deliberation, then I consider 
this from a VDG standpoint, a closed subject. 

On Friday, December 18, 2015 12:42:50 AM Mark Gaiser wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Kai Uwe Broulik 
> 
> wrote:
> > ‎Hi,
> > 
> > > It is a very hard forced dependency on that font.
> > 
> > I'll send you a bigger hard drive for Christmas as you constantly complain
> > about a few megs of dependencies without any runtime overhead. I'm glad
> > that we enforce some rules on fonts in Plasma 5 as in the 4.x times it was
> > usually just embarrassing.
> 
> I consider that to be one of the biggest issues in plasma.
> 
> > > and i'm not going to make bug reports about that.
> > 
> > So don't expect anybody to fix your issues.
> 
> If i report font issues, nobody is looking at them anyway. See [1] for
> oxygen.
> Besides, this is a google font so i would have to report it against their
> bug tracker (github in this case i guess?). But what if the thing i want to
> report is not a bug at all? To mee, it just looks that way because it has
> too much line spacing. But the font just seems to be that way so the font
> itself is probably not the problem here. Just using it as desktop font is
> the problem and _that_ is where plasma comes in.
> 
> > > It is the google font (noto) with the google browser (chromium) that
> > 
> > mainly screws things up completely.
> > 
> > So what?
> 
> If THAT combination isn't tested by google, then perhaps that combination
> is not meant to used at all.
> 
> > > Either case should be sufficient reason to not use it in Plasma 5.
> > 
> > To be honest, I still use Oxygen as I couldn't be bothered to change my
> > settings. Anyway ‎line height looks okay'ish - if you really display that
> > much continuous text anywhere that this matters, except an editor or help,
> > you probably did something wrong.
> 
> Please join the discussion when you know what you're talking about.
> It was visible on every web page. Even on gmail itself.
> 
> I'm not going to send you a screenshot. Just install the font and run
> chromium. At first you will instantly notice the fonts looking weirdly
> different with more space around them. Then you start noticing layout
> breakage. Then you start wondering: "hmm, what screwed my system up this
> time".. two days later you will figure out it's a font installed by plasma.
> 
> > Cheers,
> > Kai Uwe
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > Plasma-devel@kde.org
> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
> 
> [1] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=332059

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Sebastian Kügler  wrote:

> Let me step in here.
>
> On Friday, December 18, 2015 00:42:50 Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > If i report font issues, nobody is looking at them anyway. See [1] for
> > oxygen.
>
> Mark,
>
> That's a hurtful accusation, and it's not the first time you stray way out
> of
> line in this thread.  Before you learn to do better than that, you have no
> place on this list.
>
> This is the time where you should take a long walk, think about how to work
> with other developers in a respectful way and perhaps re-read the manifesto
> critically and compare it to your actual behaviour.
>
> I, and a few others are fed up with the behaviour you are exposing. Please
> consider yourself not welcome until that has changed significantly and
> you've
> learnt to contribute something to Plasma in a meaningful way, along with
> established standards how we interact.
>
>
That's not harmful, just a fact.

I've:
- been constructive
- pointed out exactly where the issue is and what is wrong
- showed screenshots pointing it out even more clearly (since some people
apparently just don't get it)
- searched for dozens of solutions
- etc...

It is an issue, but doesn't seem to be recognized by the plasma team
(besides Marco).
That is harmful!

I'm very pesky when it comes to visual details. I can't stand things that
are inconsistent or slightly off. If i have this issue on two installations
(one not even using Plasma, just installed frameworkintegration to prove my
case) then a lot more people will run into this as well. It should be
something you - specially you with the font based scaling - care about and
would like to resolve.

Wasn't there a paper cut project? Going the last mile? Making plasma just
that more polished that it really feels like a well developed and pleasure
to use desktop environment?

It certainly was on it's way to do just that (this is a compliment!). I saw
improvements and things really are getting better all the time, see another
compliment.

As for re-reading the code of conduct or manifesto. I have better things to
do.
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Sebastian Kügler]

Let me step in here.

On Friday, December 18, 2015 00:42:50 Mark Gaiser wrote:
> If i report font issues, nobody is looking at them anyway. See [1] for
> oxygen.

Mark, 

That's a hurtful accusation, and it's not the first time you stray way out of 
line in this thread.  Before you learn to do better than that, you have no 
place on this list.

This is the time where you should take a long walk, think about how to work 
with other developers in a respectful way and perhaps re-read the manifesto 
critically and compare it to your actual behaviour.

I, and a few others are fed up with the behaviour you are exposing. Please 
consider yourself not welcome until that has changed significantly and you've 
learnt to contribute something to Plasma in a meaningful way, along with 
established standards how we interact.
-- 
sebas

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Marco Martin]

On Friday 18 December 2015, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > 
> > Something is wrong. I see it and the font is causing it. Removing the
> > font
> 
> removes the issue. Installing the font (just having it!) gives me the
> issue.
 
Let's separe the issues...
of all the thread (honestly, often with tones that did really hurt to read) 
that's actually the one actual technical issue that should be investigated and 
solved.

This looks like a real bug (no idea if at KDE, Qt, Fontconfig or distribution 
level)

I find the rest of this conversation very subjective and at points, childish. 
I know that is easy to be carried away for stuff that one really cares about, 
but please, keep it at a civil level of discussion.
Thanks for understanding

-- 
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Kai Uwe Broulik 
wrote:

> > You can quite clearly see that the noto package adds a lot of extra
> spacing. If that wasn't bad enough, it's also slightly offset from the
> top.
>
> ‎Fwiw, font rendering in your tab bar looks shitty in both screen shots.
> Chrome rendering weird is a common problem everywhere, just google it. Do
> you also have issues in some *applications* rather than a random website?
>
>
The tab bar is the least of my worries.

I have it in every website, not just quickgit.
I think I've seen minor issues in other applications as well, but they
don't bother me. Chrome really does bother me.

Before you even make the suggestion of switching browsers, i tried! There
is no browser on linux that works better then Chrome does (in my opinion).
Firefox comes closest, but has issues of it's own.
All the browsers based on Qt (WebEngine) and Plasma are "a nice attempt",
but very far from being usable for everyday usage.
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Kai Uwe Broulik]

  > You can quite clearly see that the noto package adds a lot of extra spacing. If that wasn't bad enough, it's also slightly offset from the top.‎Fwiw, font rendering in your tab bar looks shitty in both screen shots. Chrome rendering weird is a common problem everywhere, just google it. Do you also have issues in some *applications* rather than a random website?
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Martin Graesslin 
wrote:

> On Friday, December 18, 2015 9:26:20 AM CET Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > I'm out of options here! I don't like forking (as I said before) but I
> just
> > see no other way to solve this in a somewhat stable manner for me. Let me
> > add this yet again since it seems to be overlooked over and over. Just
> > having the font installed (not configured) gives me these issues.
>
> Why do you need to fork to change the config option? That's what I don't
> get.
> It's not even a dependency in frameworkintegration, it's just an
> information
> that this is recommended.
>
> Change your local font settings to whatever you like. There is no need to
> fork
> a source code package for that.
>
>
Apparently the issue i'm having is not something you folks observe.
So here are screenshots. Mind you, I've deliberately taken those under
openbox with no KDE_SESSION environment variables set. It's a clean openbox
session under a clean user.

And to make it even more fun, this is under a vmware session, not my
regular desktop. So i definitely isn't "just my desktop" with this issue.
It's much broader then that.

With Noto package installed (NO settings changed anywhere, just the package
installed):
http://i.imgur.com/mWYkN7N.png

Without Noto package:
http://i.imgur.com/FyRnRGx.png

You can quite clearly see that the noto package adds a lot of extra spacing.
If that wasn't bad enough, it's also slightly offset from the top. Meaning
the font is not exactly in the middle of the area where it should be, but
slightly lower then the middle.

That is what i see and what i can't stand!
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Martin Graesslin]

On Friday, December 18, 2015 9:26:20 AM CET Mark Gaiser wrote:
> I'm out of options here! I don't like forking (as I said before) but I just
> see no other way to solve this in a somewhat stable manner for me. Let me
> add this yet again since it seems to be overlooked over and over. Just
> having the font installed (not configured) gives me these issues.

Why do you need to fork to change the config option? That's what I don't get. 
It's not even a dependency in frameworkintegration, it's just an information 
that this is recommended.

Change your local font settings to whatever you like. There is no need to fork 
a source code package for that.

Cheers
Martin


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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Luca Beltrame]

In data venerdì 18 dicembre 2015 09:26:20 CET, Mark Gaiser ha scritto:

> It is most definitely not my system configuration anymore, Martin. The only
> thing I can do to rule out everything on my system is reinstalling it
> completely. I won't do that just for a font!

This screams "systemwide font settings" to me, i.e. the various fontconfig font 
substitution options. 
I had no issue of the sort when openSUSE switched default font.

P.S.: Let's all take a look at the Code of Conduct and calm down. No one wants 
another "remaining time on battery" debacle, right? :P

-- 
Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team
KDE Science supporter
GPG key ID: A29D259B

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

Op 18 dec. 2015 2:48 a.m. schreef "Martin Klapetek" <
martin.klape...@gmail.com>:
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Mark Gaiser  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Frameworkintegration is hereby forked [1].
>>
>> I will keep this one in sync with frameworkintegration as it is on the
kde servers, but obviously without those fonts.
>> Once Noto starts to work normally the fork can die.
>>
>> I do this because i do not want one more desktop breakage that is caused
by fonts installed by that package, and this seems to be the easiest way to
accomplish that.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, i don't like to fork anything and have never done so
before.
>> But i have a real issue that i want to get solved. Solving it "upstream"
doesn't seem likely, so forking it is the only way.
>> The other way was how i did it before, remove the fonts when i notice
that they had been installed again, but that can slip through and cause
days of irritation.
>> Now i just make my own archlinux packages and blacklist the default
frameworkintegration, that should do the job for me.
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/markg85/frameworkintegration
>
>
> Man...I'm honestly just stunned at how childish this is.
>
> If you perhaps for a second try to acknowledge that you might
> have a local system issue instead of covering your ears and
> kicking&screaming, we're happy to help you figure it out. In the
> meantime, good luck with your demonstrative endeavor I guess.
>
> PS: I was able to change my system font in under 8 seconds
> using system settings. Seriously, what's the deal even...

.. Let me repeat myself again. Maybe that way you can somewhat see why I
did this.

I tried reverting all possible font settings (and I did). Removing the
global and local font configuration files and reinstalling the package that
provide it. That did not work.

I tried the above + a brand new clean user (with no previous config), that
did not work.

I tried reverting packages (mainly chrome and freetype since it had some
big changes recently). That did not work. Everything stayed roughly the
same. I say roughly because reverting the freetype library did change it
slightly, but that's because the new freetype release includes quite big
changes.

I tried irc, discuss it there to see if the issue was known and how I could
solve it. Didn't help.

I searched for bug reports against chrome (since it mainly occurs there for
me). I did found some, but they could hardly be related since it was years
old. I only had it for days and I tent to stay very updated.

I tried asking the arch devs to adjust the frameworkintegration package to
not install the font packages. They say if its a bug that needs to be fixed
upstream, not worked around. I agree with that, but that doesn't resolve my
issue.

It is most definitely not my system configuration anymore, Martin. The only
thing I can do to rule out everything on my system is reinstalling it
completely. I won't do that just for a font!

I'm out of options here! I don't like forking (as I said before) but I just
see no other way to solve this in a somewhat stable manner for me. Let me
add this yet again since it seems to be overlooked over and over. Just
having the font installed (not configured) gives me these issues.
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Martin Klapetek]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Mark Gaiser  wrote:

>
> Frameworkintegration is hereby forked [1].
>
> I will keep this one in sync with frameworkintegration as it is on the kde
> servers, but obviously without those fonts.
> Once Noto starts to work normally the fork can die.
>
> I do this because i do not want one more desktop breakage that is caused
> by fonts installed by that package, and this seems to be the easiest way to
> accomplish that.
>
> Don't get me wrong, i don't like to fork anything and have never done so
> before.
> But i have a real issue that i want to get solved. Solving it "upstream"
> doesn't seem likely, so forking it is the only way.
> The other way was how i did it before, remove the fonts when i notice that
> they had been installed again, but that can slip through and cause days of
> irritation.
> Now i just make my own archlinux packages and blacklist the default
> frameworkintegration, that should do the job for me.
>
> [1] https://github.com/markg85/frameworkintegration
>

Man...I'm honestly just stunned at how childish this is.

If you perhaps for a second try to acknowledge that you might
have a local system issue instead of covering your ears and
kicking&screaming, we're happy to help you figure it out. In the
meantime, good luck with your demonstrative endeavor I guess.

PS: I was able to change my system font in under 8 seconds
using system settings. Seriously, what's the deal even...

Cheers
-- 
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Eike Hein]

On 12/18/2015 01:47 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> Frameworkintegration is hereby forked [1].

Yeah, and your fork's wrong. The feature_summary() call you
removed prints info among the packages marked as required; there's
no Noto package, and so it's not marked as required. The message()
call after is unrelated and purely informative.

But I know you don't like dealing in implementation details.


Cheers,
Eike
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Aleix Pol]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 9:51 PM, Mark Gaiser  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've (somewhat mildly) already stated that i do not like the oxygen fonts at
> all! Just having those installed always screws up "something" on my system.
>
> So what i used to do was simply removing the oxygen fonts once an update had
> the nerves to install it again. Which would be the frameworkintegration
> package since it requires those fonts.
>
> However, recently frameworkintegration began to depend on the Noto fonts.
> That single change made me search for about 2 days for possible reasons why
> my chrome fonts where messed up [1]. Now that i know that it's
> frameworkintegration, i really do blame you folks for depending on that!
> Really, why depend on that font! And i don't care for reasons like "we can't
> satisfy everyone". I can see no valid reason for Plasma - or rather breeze -
> (that installs frameworkintegration) to depend on any font. What is wrong
> with the fonts that the system has? Let the user decide, really! don't force
> a font upon them, i'm serious about that!
>
> Fonts are a very delicate piece of software and are being used _everywhere_
> not just plasma. A choice of you folks to force a font upon the user will
> influence how other applications look. That is not up to you to decide. You
> cannot test all applications and see the impact the font might have so just
> don't even go there and stay away from fonts! You can recommend a font,
> that's fine.
>
> But in all seriousness, how can you even consider the noto font? Have you
> even seen it on the site? It has massive spacing between lines [2]. It's
> just not fit for everyday desktop usage in my opinion. Most definitely not
> on non retina displays. It "might" be better suited for small high
> resolution displays (phones, retina tablets, 4k displays in ~24 inch).
>
> I urge you, please reconsider the required font madness in
> frameworkintegration!
>
> Best regards,
> Mark
>
> [1] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1587249
> [2] https://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-lgc

I don't get it. Can't you just change your fonts on System Settings?

I'm flabbergasted.

Aleix
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Eike Hein]

On 12/18/2015 01:34 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> Ohh just stop it!
> You're going into technical implementation details of a specification
> (SVG in this case).

Nope, I didn't. I'm saying this particular SVG (authored as such
by someone) doesn't match the result you get when you throw the
font data and CSS/Qt line height defaults together.

And no, I won't "stop it". This is a -devel list. We talk
engineering here.


> That's it, end of discussion.

I've shown you screenshots of Chrome and Qt compared to that SVG.

Let's vet this against a completely different font stack to make
sure what you're seeing on my shots is expected or not.

So here's Windows 10:

http://i.imgur.com/HeK4GbB.png

Comparing my Linux shots to the Windows shot I'll leave to you.

And yeah, EOD indeed.


Cheers,
Sike

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Eike Hein  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/18/2015 12:31 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > You will hear me when my workflow is severely interrupted and when i
> > find the cause of it.
>
> plasma-devel@kde.org is not mark-gaisers-workf...@kde.org.
>
> Bug reports go to bugs.kde.org. User support happens on the
> user list and in the KDE Forums.
>
>
>
> > Sorry, but that is just a bogus argument for the sake of arguing.
> > It's very obvious and expected that a sample of a specific font is meant
> > to represent how the font looks when installed.
>
> Ah c'mon. Take a look at the glyph data with FontForge and then get
> out a ruler and check the SVG again. I don't have time to prove to
> you the SVG isn't equivalent to Qt and CSS line height defaults.
>
> Here's Google Chrome overlaid over the SVG though, re default
> intra-glyph and intra-line spacing:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/FlnxgGp.png
>
> http://i.imgur.com/6d0sBup.png
>
> Did you even check this stuff or is it OK if it's my time ...?
>
>
>
> > And there i see too much spacing between the lines.
>
> I don't, and I know this stuff pretty well.
>
>
> > There it's somewhat fine, but that isn't the default! And that can't be
> > influenced as user of the font.
>
> It's the default.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Eike
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>

Frameworkintegration is hereby forked [1].

I will keep this one in sync with frameworkintegration as it is on the kde
servers, but obviously without those fonts.
Once Noto starts to work normally the fork can die.

I do this because i do not want one more desktop breakage that is caused by
fonts installed by that package, and this seems to be the easiest way to
accomplish that.

Don't get me wrong, i don't like to fork anything and have never done so
before.
But i have a real issue that i want to get solved. Solving it "upstream"
doesn't seem likely, so forking it is the only way.
The other way was how i did it before, remove the fonts when i notice that
they had been installed again, but that can slip through and cause days of
irritation.
Now i just make my own archlinux packages and blacklist the default
frameworkintegration, that should do the job for me.

[1] https://github.com/markg85/frameworkintegration
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Jens Reuterberg]

Hello,
concerning fonts - the choice of fonts is always a tricky call. Aside from an 
exact, and more feature complete version of Oxygen which sadly doesn't exist, 
Noto is the perfect choice for us.

It's a very well made standardized font and the only other contender was the 
Firefox Fira IIRC and that had other issues (as in being to visually tied to 
Firefox and Mozilla where as Noto was not visibly connected to Google).

As for the technical bits I can't reply because that is sadly not my forté, as 
for the visuals I am sorry that you experience these problems and as someone 
who doesn't experience them and can't duplicate them there is a large issue 
here from a visual design bug standard.
But from a design perspective the work done on the Noto Font is top class 
meassured by any metric available and it also provides a good testing ground 
for the font as that font is present in a very very large chunk of places.
You claim that it is unusable on larger screens except smaller form factors 
like mobiles can easily be argued by the very same reasoning why we picked a 
well liked, well made and standard sans font like Noto in the first place. It 
exists on many many machines. 

I realize this isn't the answer but as you are well aware we give every single 
option possible from our POV to the end user via distros to change the font, 
to edit it out. The size is negligent by modern standards, the choice 
available and the choice of Noto as a standard font is a well founded one 
without any clear alternatives that cover as many different symbols and 
alphabetical variants as that. 
We haven't forced anything down anyones throat.

Now many of the more technically adept people have fairly replied, repeating 
the fact that from a technical standpoint no one is forcing you to use 
anything. But that again is their debate with you, not mine.
Since no better alternatives are presented (if you know a font that is seeing 
more active upkeep, with as good a spread or better and with more suitability 
as a standard font - this is your time to speak up), the choice of Noto was a 
necessity and one made carefully with plenty of deliberation, then I consider 
this from a VDG standpoint, a closed subject. 

On Friday, December 18, 2015 01:34:24 AM Mark Gaiser wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Eike Hein  wrote:
> > On 12/18/2015 12:31 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > > You will hear me when my workflow is severely interrupted and when i
> > > find the cause of it.
> > 
> > plasma-devel@kde.org is not mark-gaisers-workf...@kde.org.
> > 
> > Bug reports go to bugs.kde.org. User support happens on the
> > user list and in the KDE Forums.
> > 
> > > Sorry, but that is just a bogus argument for the sake of arguing.
> > > It's very obvious and expected that a sample of a specific font is meant
> > > to represent how the font looks when installed.
> > 
> > Ah c'mon. Take a look at the glyph data with FontForge and then get
> > out a ruler and check the SVG again. I don't have time to prove to
> > you the SVG isn't equivalent to Qt and CSS line height defaults.
> 
> Ohh just stop it!
> You're going into technical implementation details of a specification (SVG
> in this case).
> 
> The noto font is on the google site. It has examples of how it looks and
> you as a user can expect it to look like that.
> I see the same line height freakyness in their examples as on my computer
> and i don't like it.
> 
> That's it, end of discussion.
> 
> > Here's Google Chrome overlaid over the SVG though, re default
> > intra-glyph and intra-line spacing:
> > 
> > http://i.imgur.com/FlnxgGp.png
> > 
> > http://i.imgur.com/6d0sBup.png
> > 
> > Did you even check this stuff or is it OK if it's my time ...?
> > 
> > > And there i see too much spacing between the lines.
> > 
> > I don't, and I know this stuff pretty well.
> > 
> > > There it's somewhat fine, but that isn't the default! And that can't be
> > > influenced as user of the font.
> > 
> > It's the default.
> > 
> > Then your default differs from mine.
> 
> And i didn't change font settings at all!

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Eike Hein  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/18/2015 12:31 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > You will hear me when my workflow is severely interrupted and when i
> > find the cause of it.
>
> plasma-devel@kde.org is not mark-gaisers-workf...@kde.org.
>
> Bug reports go to bugs.kde.org. User support happens on the
> user list and in the KDE Forums.
>
>
>
> > Sorry, but that is just a bogus argument for the sake of arguing.
> > It's very obvious and expected that a sample of a specific font is meant
> > to represent how the font looks when installed.
>
> Ah c'mon. Take a look at the glyph data with FontForge and then get
> out a ruler and check the SVG again. I don't have time to prove to
> you the SVG isn't equivalent to Qt and CSS line height defaults.
>
>
Ohh just stop it!
You're going into technical implementation details of a specification (SVG
in this case).

The noto font is on the google site. It has examples of how it looks and
you as a user can expect it to look like that.
I see the same line height freakyness in their examples as on my computer
and i don't like it.

That's it, end of discussion.


> Here's Google Chrome overlaid over the SVG though, re default
> intra-glyph and intra-line spacing:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/FlnxgGp.png
>
> http://i.imgur.com/6d0sBup.png
>
> Did you even check this stuff or is it OK if it's my time ...?
>
>
>
> > And there i see too much spacing between the lines.
>
> I don't, and I know this stuff pretty well.
>
>
> > There it's somewhat fine, but that isn't the default! And that can't be
> > influenced as user of the font.
>
> It's the default.
>
> Then your default differs from mine.
And i didn't change font settings at all!
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Eike Hein  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/18/2015 12:42 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > I consider that to be one of the biggest issues in plasma.
>
> It's a case-by-case thing. The actual installed size of Noto
> depends a lot on how a distro choses to package it (split by
> writing system vs big monolothic package). If a reasonable
> subset of Noto's language coverage is installed it obviates
> the need for a lot of other fonts that would previously be
> installed by distros to achieve the same coverage, but
> contain plenty of redundant glyphs. A distro can well make
> the default install smaller by packaging and using Noto well,
> and you can expect distros - independent of KDE's decision -
> to come to this conclusion soon. It's a really useful font
> package.
>
>
> > If i report font issues, nobody is looking at them anyway. See [1] for
> > oxygen.
>
> That's disproven by the existence of this thread. The lack
> of maintenance for Oxygen is something we actively tried to
> solve, and when we couldn't, we addressed it by switching.
>
> IOW people definitely looked at it and that's why we're here
> now.
>
>
> > Besides, this is a google font so i would have to report it against
> > their bug tracker (github in this case i guess?). But what if the thing
> > i want to report is not a bug at all? To mee, it just looks that way
> > because it has too much line spacing. But the font just seems to be that
> > way so the font itself is probably not the problem here. Just using it
> > as desktop font is the problem and _that_ is where plasma comes in.
>
> "It's not what I like" != "it's a bug". We offer
> customization options for users to tailor the experience
> to their individual preferences. Defaults do matter very
> much, and I've made the case for why Noto is a good default
> that improves the experience for many users. Those users
> seem to have different needs from yours and you seem
> overly focused on yours.
>
> Users in a CJK country, with previous font setups, would
> see stuff like a clash of visually incongruent type faces
> within the same line if it mixed Latin and a CJK character
> set, and varying line heights if a line contained only the
> one or the other. This sort of mess is gone now. This does
> address real bug reports you could have (probably still
> can, tbh) find on BKO as well.
>

For me It should look good in english or dutch and that's fine.
Having said that. If there is a font which looks just good in all
languages, they yes. That would obviously be the preferred font. Noto is
not that font.

>
> (This was also the case with Latin/Cyrillic and Latin/Arabic
> mixes specifically on Oxygen, since Oxygen really only did
> Latin. And that's before you get into newer needs like
> emoji.)
>
>
> > If THAT combination isn't tested by google, then perhaps that
> > combination is not meant to used at all.
>
> Noto is the default sans-serif font family used on Google
> Chrome OS, for chrissakes. It was basically *made for
> Chrome*.
>
> Something is wrong. I see it and the font is causing it. Removing the font
removes the issue. Installing the font (just having it!) gives me the issue.


>
> > I'm not going to send you a screenshot. Just install the font and run
> > chromium. At first you will instantly notice the fonts looking weirdly
> > different with more space around them. Then you start noticing layout
> > breakage. Then you start wondering: "hmm, what screwed my system up this
> > time".. two days later you will figure out it's a font installed by
> plasma.
>
> I still don't see anything like this in Chrome here, FWIW.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Eike
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Eike Hein]

On 12/18/2015 12:31 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> You will hear me when my workflow is severely interrupted and when i
> find the cause of it.

plasma-devel@kde.org is not mark-gaisers-workf...@kde.org.

Bug reports go to bugs.kde.org. User support happens on the
user list and in the KDE Forums.



> Sorry, but that is just a bogus argument for the sake of arguing.
> It's very obvious and expected that a sample of a specific font is meant
> to represent how the font looks when installed.

Ah c'mon. Take a look at the glyph data with FontForge and then get
out a ruler and check the SVG again. I don't have time to prove to
you the SVG isn't equivalent to Qt and CSS line height defaults.

Here's Google Chrome overlaid over the SVG though, re default
intra-glyph and intra-line spacing:

http://i.imgur.com/FlnxgGp.png

http://i.imgur.com/6d0sBup.png

Did you even check this stuff or is it OK if it's my time ...?



> And there i see too much spacing between the lines.

I don't, and I know this stuff pretty well.


> There it's somewhat fine, but that isn't the default! And that can't be
> influenced as user of the font. 

It's the default.


Cheers,
Eike
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Martin Klapetek]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Mark Gaiser  wrote:

>
> If i report font issues, nobody is looking at them anyway. See [1] for
> oxygen.
>

Vernon Adams, the Oxygen font designer, was in a serious
road accident in May 2014 with incredibly hard recovery
ahead of him. Maybe that's why nobody has looked at your
Oxygen bugs...you know, cause things happen IRL and the
world does not revolve around you.

Also you misunderstood the CMake message. That does *not*
force you to install Noto, it's a simple message. You can safely
build frameworkintegration without it and use whatever font you
want. Nobody is forcing anything "down your throat".

Cheers
-- 
Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Eike Hein]

On 12/18/2015 12:42 AM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> I consider that to be one of the biggest issues in plasma.

It's a case-by-case thing. The actual installed size of Noto
depends a lot on how a distro choses to package it (split by
writing system vs big monolothic package). If a reasonable
subset of Noto's language coverage is installed it obviates
the need for a lot of other fonts that would previously be
installed by distros to achieve the same coverage, but
contain plenty of redundant glyphs. A distro can well make
the default install smaller by packaging and using Noto well,
and you can expect distros - independent of KDE's decision -
to come to this conclusion soon. It's a really useful font
package.


> If i report font issues, nobody is looking at them anyway. See [1] for
> oxygen.

That's disproven by the existence of this thread. The lack
of maintenance for Oxygen is something we actively tried to
solve, and when we couldn't, we addressed it by switching.

IOW people definitely looked at it and that's why we're here
now.


> Besides, this is a google font so i would have to report it against
> their bug tracker (github in this case i guess?). But what if the thing
> i want to report is not a bug at all? To mee, it just looks that way
> because it has too much line spacing. But the font just seems to be that
> way so the font itself is probably not the problem here. Just using it
> as desktop font is the problem and _that_ is where plasma comes in.

"It's not what I like" != "it's a bug". We offer
customization options for users to tailor the experience
to their individual preferences. Defaults do matter very
much, and I've made the case for why Noto is a good default
that improves the experience for many users. Those users
seem to have different needs from yours and you seem
overly focused on yours.

Users in a CJK country, with previous font setups, would
see stuff like a clash of visually incongruent type faces
within the same line if it mixed Latin and a CJK character
set, and varying line heights if a line contained only the
one or the other. This sort of mess is gone now. This does
address real bug reports you could have (probably still
can, tbh) find on BKO as well.

(This was also the case with Latin/Cyrillic and Latin/Arabic
mixes specifically on Oxygen, since Oxygen really only did
Latin. And that's before you get into newer needs like
emoji.)


> If THAT combination isn't tested by google, then perhaps that
> combination is not meant to used at all. 

Noto is the default sans-serif font family used on Google
Chrome OS, for chrissakes. It was basically *made for
Chrome*.


> I'm not going to send you a screenshot. Just install the font and run
> chromium. At first you will instantly notice the fonts looking weirdly
> different with more space around them. Then you start noticing layout
> breakage. Then you start wondering: "hmm, what screwed my system up this
> time".. two days later you will figure out it's a font installed by plasma.

I still don't see anything like this in Chrome here, FWIW.


Cheers,
Eike
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Kai Uwe Broulik 
wrote:

> ‎Hi,
>
> > It is a very hard forced dependency on that font.
>
> I'll send you a bigger hard drive for Christmas as you constantly complain
> about a few megs of dependencies without any runtime overhead. I'm glad
> that we enforce some rules on fonts in Plasma 5 as in the 4.x times it was
> usually just embarrassing.
>

I consider that to be one of the biggest issues in plasma.


>
> > and i'm not going to make bug reports about that.
>
> So don't expect anybody to fix your issues.
>

If i report font issues, nobody is looking at them anyway. See [1] for
oxygen.
Besides, this is a google font so i would have to report it against their
bug tracker (github in this case i guess?). But what if the thing i want to
report is not a bug at all? To mee, it just looks that way because it has
too much line spacing. But the font just seems to be that way so the font
itself is probably not the problem here. Just using it as desktop font is
the problem and _that_ is where plasma comes in.


>
> > It is the google font (noto) with the google browser (chromium) that
> mainly screws things up completely.
>
> So what?
>

If THAT combination isn't tested by google, then perhaps that combination
is not meant to used at all.

>
> > Either case should be sufficient reason to not use it in Plasma 5.
>
> To be honest, I still use Oxygen as I couldn't be bothered to change my
> settings. Anyway ‎line height looks okay'ish - if you really display that
> much continuous text anywhere that this matters, except an editor or help,
> you probably did something wrong.
>
>
Please join the discussion when you know what you're talking about.
It was visible on every web page. Even on gmail itself.

I'm not going to send you a screenshot. Just install the font and run
chromium. At first you will instantly notice the fonts looking weirdly
different with more space around them. Then you start noticing layout
breakage. Then you start wondering: "hmm, what screwed my system up this
time".. two days later you will figure out it's a font installed by plasma.



> Cheers,
> Kai Uwe
>
>
>
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>
[1] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=332059
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 11:43 PM, Eike Hein  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/17/2015 11:09 PM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> > What you say might be true and might be the goal of that font.
> > But it is unusable for me at this moment and i'm not going to make bug
> > reports about that.
> >
> > It is the google font (noto) with the google browser (chromium) that
> > mainly screws things up completely.
> >
> > It's either heavily bugged or not ready to be used.
> > Either case should be sufficient reason to not use it in Plasma 5.
>
> "I'm seeing something on my system I don't like. This must
> mean this assessment holds true for everyone and something is
> broken on every system, and the people who made the change must
> be thoughtless. This is cause to side-step the default process
> that might allow them to handle my feedback efficiently along-
> side other concerns; after all, it's now clearly up to them
> to accomodate me, including bearing my justified agitation."
>
> There's a lot of assumptions (engineering, community dynamics,
> etc.) baked into this that are dubious; I guess I'm used to a
> different approach from someone with a dev account.
>
>
I didn't like the change to Oxygen from day one when they made it the
default font.
I thought it was bound to cause issues more then whatever reason there was
to make it the default. And that was before i ever used it.
I didn't comment on the RR where it was initially patched to make Oxygen
the default [1], but i certainly didn't like it.
I posted to this very list when i observed the first issues with that font
[2] where David Edmundson made a bug report [3].
That very report is still open.

It shows me only one thing. The complete lack of interest with the font
devs to bother fixing anything hence my very strong opinion to not even use
that font at all!
I've seen more issues with oxygen then i've reported, but why report
anything else with that font if nobody is going to look at it anyway.

I am most definitely not the person who is swift to start complaining about
things. You won't hear me until i'm really getting frustrated by an issue.
I consider the font stuff a big mistake in plasma. And i'm fine if the
plasma folks are stubborn enough to keep pushing it through. You won't hear
me.
You will hear me when my workflow is severely interrupted and when i find
the cause of it.


>
> > You are wrong.
> > The line height might be what you said, but what you see isn't a font
> > rendered by chrome. The link i gave earlier
> > (https://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-lgc) shows the fonts rendered in
> > a SVG image. The css line height has nothing to do with that. So what
> > you see in that image is how it will look if you use that font. And that
> > is just completely useless for desktop usage. It's fine to use that font
> > in for example designs made in gimp or photoshop.. But not as desktop
> font!
>
>
> Much like CSS, the SVG format allows control over line height
> and even explicit positioning of individual glyphs converted
> to paths. That it's an SVG doesn't tell us what line height
> its author set when laying out the sample text.
>

Sorry, but that is just a bogus argument for the sake of arguing.
It's very obvious and expected that a sample of a specific font is meant to
represent how the font looks when installed.


>
> Anyhoo, here's Noto Sans 9pt over 96dpi in a QTextArea:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/lPkumWi.png


And there i see too much spacing between the lines.


>
>
> Google Chrome, Noto Sans 9pt over 96dpi, no line-height
> set:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/LdHFQ3v.png


There it's somewhat fine, but that isn't the default! And that can't be
influenced as user of the font.

>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Eike
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>

[1] https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/116625/
[2] https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/plasma-devel/2014-May/031609.html
[3] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=332059
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Eike Hein]

On 12/18/2015 12:00 AM, Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
> I'll send you a bigger hard drive for Christmas as you constantly
> complain about a few megs of dependencies without any runtime overhead.
> I'm glad that we enforce some rules on fonts in Plasma 5 as in the 4.x
> times it was usually just embarrassing.

If we don't we just push the problem of reasonable defaults
(and having the time/knowledge to select them) down to the
distro people - who can still override our decision now if
they don't like it, anyway.

We're fine with carrying this responsibility though + from
a product aesthetics POV it's good control to have.


Cheers,
Eike
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Kai Uwe Broulik]

  ‎Hi,> It is a very hard forced dependency on that font.I'll send you a bigger hard drive for Christmas as you constantly complain about a few megs of dependencies without any runtime overhead. I'm glad that we enforce some rules on fonts in Plasma 5 as in the 4.x times it was usually just embarrassing.> and i'm not going to make bug reports about that.So don't expect anybody to fix your issues.> It is the google font (noto) with the google browser (chromium) that mainly screws things up completely.So what?> Either case should be sufficient reason to not use it in Plasma 5.To be honest, I still use Oxygen as I couldn't be bothered to change my settings. Anyway ‎line height looks okay'ish - if you really display that much continuous text anywhere that this matters, except an editor or help, you probably did something wrong.Cheers, Kai Uwe

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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Johan Ouwerkerk]

> It is a very hard forced dependency on that font.

At build time, yes. At run time, you can simply reconfigure your
preferences in System Settings, uninstall both Oxygen and Noto
completely (with package manager) and still continue to use Plasma.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Mark Gaiser  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:09 PM, Eike Hein  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I think you might not be entirely clear on what we're doing.
>
>
> Perhaps.
>
>>
>>
>> It's not a forced dependency/font, it's a default font setting
>> which compells distro packagers to pull the font packages in as
>> dependency. However you can change the font in System Settings
>> to your liking.
>
>
> No, that is just not the case. The CMake line for frameworkintegration
> states:
> feature_summary(WHAT ALL   FATAL_ON_MISSING_REQUIRED_PACKAGES)
> message("** frameworkintegration uses Noto Sans
> (https://www.google.com/get/noto/) and Oxygen Mono
> (http://download.kde.org/stable/plasma/5.4.0/oxygen-fonts-5.4.0.tar.xz)
> fonts, ensure these are installed for use at runtime")
>
> It is a very hard forced dependency on that font.
>
>>
>> As for why Noto: It's designed for screens (both low and high
>> ppi), very high-quality and has very broad character set support,
>> enabling a high aesthetic standard consistently across a wide
>> variety of locales for the first time on Linux. In particular
>> in scenarios of mixed character set text this is a huge impro-
>> vement on the earlier situation (where glyph substitution often
>> puts typefaces that don't fit next to each other). It's also
>> under active ongoing development and has significant resources
>> behind it, and some of the leading type foundries around the
>> planet.
>
>
> What you say might be true and might be the goal of that font.
> But it is unusable for me at this moment and i'm not going to make bug
> reports about that.
>
> It is the google font (noto) with the google browser (chromium) that mainly
> screws things up completely.
>
> It's either heavily bugged or not ready to be used.
> Either case should be sufficient reason to not use it in Plasma 5.
>
>>
>>
>> As for your link to the website wrt/ line spacing, please
>> note that the style sheet of that website forces a line height
>> of 1.71429 (1.0 being normal), i.e. the line height there isn't
>> representative of normal text layout using Noto.
>
>
> You are wrong.
> The line height might be what you said, but what you see isn't a font
> rendered by chrome. The link i gave earlier
> (https://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-lgc) shows the fonts rendered in a
> SVG image. The css line height has nothing to do with that. So what you see
> in that image is how it will look if you use that font. And that is just
> completely useless for desktop usage. It's fine to use that font in for
> example designs made in gimp or photoshop.. But not as desktop font!
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Best regards,
>> > Mark
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Eike
>> ___
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>> Plasma-devel@kde.org
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
>
>
>
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Eike Hein]

On 12/17/2015 11:09 PM, Mark Gaiser wrote:
> What you say might be true and might be the goal of that font.
> But it is unusable for me at this moment and i'm not going to make bug
> reports about that.
> 
> It is the google font (noto) with the google browser (chromium) that
> mainly screws things up completely.
> 
> It's either heavily bugged or not ready to be used.
> Either case should be sufficient reason to not use it in Plasma 5.

"I'm seeing something on my system I don't like. This must
mean this assessment holds true for everyone and something is
broken on every system, and the people who made the change must
be thoughtless. This is cause to side-step the default process
that might allow them to handle my feedback efficiently along-
side other concerns; after all, it's now clearly up to them
to accomodate me, including bearing my justified agitation."

There's a lot of assumptions (engineering, community dynamics,
etc.) baked into this that are dubious; I guess I'm used to a
different approach from someone with a dev account.



> You are wrong.
> The line height might be what you said, but what you see isn't a font
> rendered by chrome. The link i gave earlier
> (https://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-lgc) shows the fonts rendered in
> a SVG image. The css line height has nothing to do with that. So what
> you see in that image is how it will look if you use that font. And that
> is just completely useless for desktop usage. It's fine to use that font
> in for example designs made in gimp or photoshop.. But not as desktop font!


Much like CSS, the SVG format allows control over line height
and even explicit positioning of individual glyphs converted
to paths. That it's an SVG doesn't tell us what line height
its author set when laying out the sample text.

Anyhoo, here's Noto Sans 9pt over 96dpi in a QTextArea:

http://i.imgur.com/lPkumWi.png

Google Chrome, Noto Sans 9pt over 96dpi, no line-height
set:

http://i.imgur.com/LdHFQ3v.png


Cheers,
Eike
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Mark Gaiser]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:09 PM, Eike Hein  wrote:

>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I think you might not be entirely clear on what we're doing.
>

Perhaps.


>
> It's not a forced dependency/font, it's a default font setting
> which compells distro packagers to pull the font packages in as
> dependency. However you can change the font in System Settings
> to your liking.
>

No, that is just not the case. The CMake line for frameworkintegration
states:
feature_summary(WHAT ALL   FATAL_ON_MISSING_REQUIRED_PACKAGES)
message("** frameworkintegration uses Noto Sans (
https://www.google.com/get/noto/) and Oxygen Mono (
http://download.kde.org/stable/plasma/5.4.0/oxygen-fonts-5.4.0.tar.xz)
fonts, ensure these are installed for use at runtime")

It is a very hard forced dependency on that font.


> As for why Noto: It's designed for screens (both low and high
> ppi), very high-quality and has very broad character set support,
> enabling a high aesthetic standard consistently across a wide
> variety of locales for the first time on Linux. In particular
> in scenarios of mixed character set text this is a huge impro-
> vement on the earlier situation (where glyph substitution often
> puts typefaces that don't fit next to each other). It's also
> under active ongoing development and has significant resources
> behind it, and some of the leading type foundries around the
> planet.
>

What you say might be true and might be the goal of that font.
But it is unusable for me at this moment and i'm not going to make bug
reports about that.

It is the google font (noto) with the google browser (chromium) that mainly
screws things up completely.

It's either heavily bugged or not ready to be used.
Either case should be sufficient reason to not use it in Plasma 5.


>
> As for your link to the website wrt/ line spacing, please
> note that the style sheet of that website forces a line height
> of 1.71429 (1.0 being normal), i.e. the line height there isn't
> representative of normal text layout using Noto.
>

You are wrong.
The line height might be what you said, but what you see isn't a font
rendered by chrome. The link i gave earlier (
https://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-lgc) shows the fonts rendered in a
SVG image. The css line height has nothing to do with that. So what you see
in that image is how it will look if you use that font. And that is just
completely useless for desktop usage. It's fine to use that font in for
example designs made in gimp or photoshop.. But not as desktop font!


>
>
> > Best regards,
> > Mark
>
> Cheers,
> Eike
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Re: Noto fonts screw my system, please stop forcing fonts upon me!

[Eike Hein]

Hi Mark,

I think you might not be entirely clear on what we're doing.

It's not a forced dependency/font, it's a default font setting
which compells distro packagers to pull the font packages in as
dependency. However you can change the font in System Settings
to your liking.

As for why Noto: It's designed for screens (both low and high
ppi), very high-quality and has very broad character set support,
enabling a high aesthetic standard consistently across a wide
variety of locales for the first time on Linux. In particular
in scenarios of mixed character set text this is a huge impro-
vement on the earlier situation (where glyph substitution often
puts typefaces that don't fit next to each other). It's also
under active ongoing development and has significant resources
behind it, and some of the leading type foundries around the
planet.

As for your link to the website wrt/ line spacing, please
note that the style sheet of that website forces a line height
of 1.71429 (1.0 being normal), i.e. the line height there isn't
representative of normal text layout using Noto.


> Best regards,
> Mark

Cheers,
Eike
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