Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Ivan Čukić]

> Your argument above exactly shows to me why this _is_ related to the
> rebranding: You seeing Plasma's launcher specifically as an "entrance to

Rebranding was about KDE is the community, not the software.

It is *not* about "Plasma works as well with non-KDE software as with
the KDE-software". Plasma will always work better with KDE software,
in the sense it is more integrated.

If we said anything else, we would be lying. Plasma is meant to be
used with Dolphin. etc. Now, it can be used with something else, and
Dolphin can be used in Gnome, but it will be less than when used
together.

> This is an excellent point: We have made several attempts to define what,
> apart from plasmashell, makes up "the Plasma workspace". The

I know. And not being able to define this (btw, this is not only a
question for Plasma and VDG, but also of those apps that might see
themselves as a part of the desktop environment) is the main reason
why we should not go for the half-baked ideas.

> The VDG is convinced that it would be hugely beneficial if we (along with
> the maintainers of the respective applications) would finally define which
> apps belong to the workspace, and then to put them all under one brand.

I agree. The question will be - is that brand Plasma or something
else? What will be the logo for that brand? What will be the
connection to the already existing and recognizable brand we currently
have?

I'm not usually the one to slow down the progress, but I'm not a fan
of changing something just for the sake of that change. We need a pros
and cons list - concrete pros and cons, not 'it will make a
distinction between workspace and applications', but 'this distinction
will make it better to ...', etc.

Just remember, we are not a new kid on the block; we are not ashamed
of our past to need a completely new start, new name, new everything;
we need evolution, not rebirth. :) (I'm going to stop now :) )

Cheers,
Ivan
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 31.05.2016 22:38, Ivan Čukić wrote:

Hi all,

There are two main reasons why I'm against this (regardless of what
ends up being plasma logo, and regardless of whether it will be pretty
or not - the KDE logo would not win any beauty pageants :) ):

  - (as previously mentioned) the gear-logo is a recognizable brand
(easy to spot on on TV or elsewhere)
  - the menu is entrance to the KDE world (even if there are a lot of
non-kde apps in it) - most Plasma users use other KDE applications as
well. Changing this logo might feel like we want to separate ourselves
from those applications and their developers. I would rather like to
see something that joins the community together than splitting it
apart.
Seeing Plasma's launcher (and with that, Plasma) as "the entrance to the KDE 
world" is one of the reasons why people still see them as closely related.
People are not supposed to see Plasma's launcher more as an entrance to "the KDE 
world" than as the entrance to the world of any other software available for 
their system, nor should they think that Plasma is a better entrance to "the KDE 
world" than any other desktop (or operating system).

I honestly do not see this as a part of KDE-is-not-the-desktop
rebranding effort.
Your argument above exactly shows to me why this _is_ related to the rebranding: 
You seeing Plasma's launcher specifically as an "entrance to the KDE world" 
shows me that even you still think of Plasma as more closely related to KDE 
applications than to other applications and vice versa.
That's what the rebranding wanted to change, and we're holding ourselves back if 
we insist on that visual connection.

Microsoft is not Windows (they share the logo) and
Apple is not OSX shell (they also show the logo as the 'menu' button),
MATE project is not only the desktop (and they use the project logo as
the 'menu' button).

MATE is insteresting in the way that they include the file manager,
archiver, image viewer, document viewer etc (what is traditionally
considered a DE). If we had a unified logo for Plasma and Dolphin,
Okular, etc. this would be much more fitting.
This is an excellent point: We have made several attempts to define what, apart 
from plasmashell, makes up "the Plasma workspace". The consensus seemed to 
always have been that some applications are considered to be a core part of the 
workspace, but individual opinions differ regarding specifically which 
applications these are.


The VDG is convinced that it would be hugely beneficial if we (along with the 
maintainers of the respective applications) would finally define which apps 
belong to the workspace, and then to put them all under one brand.


Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Harald Sitter]

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Ivan Čukić  wrote:
> Microsoft is not Windows (they share the logo)

Not that I feel we need to discuss this further, but they do not share
the logo. The actual windows logo changes between iterations and has
since forever been the four tiles representing a window. The microsoft
logo has been first and foremost a wordmark logo up until recently
when it adopted the four tiles as part of the logo. And that being
said the current windows logo and the current microsoft icon-only
logo, are both 4 tiles, they are not the same 4 tiles though (i.e.
windows 10 has perspective tiles, microsoft does not).
HS
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Ivan Čukić]

Hi all,

There are two main reasons why I'm against this (regardless of what
ends up being plasma logo, and regardless of whether it will be pretty
or not - the KDE logo would not win any beauty pageants :) ):

 - (as previously mentioned) the gear-logo is a recognizable brand
(easy to spot on on TV or elsewhere)
 - the menu is entrance to the KDE world (even if there are a lot of
non-kde apps in it) - most Plasma users use other KDE applications as
well. Changing this logo might feel like we want to separate ourselves
from those applications and their developers. I would rather like to
see something that joins the community together than splitting it
apart.

I honestly do not see this as a part of KDE-is-not-the-desktop
rebranding effort. Microsoft is not Windows (they share the logo) and
Apple is not OSX shell (they also show the logo as the 'menu' button),
MATE project is not only the desktop (and they use the project logo as
the 'menu' button).

MATE is insteresting in the way that they include the file manager,
archiver, image viewer, document viewer etc (what is traditionally
considered a DE). If we had a unified logo for Plasma and Dolphin,
Okular, etc. this would be much more fitting.

Cheers,
Ivan
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 03.02.2016 18:31, Marco Martin wrote:

On Wednesday 03 February 2016 09:10:06 Dirk Hohndel wrote:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/
s1600/plasma-5-banner.png

As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And
really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on


 "outside" perspective that makes it very, very valuable.


ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of
my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced
dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to
me.


yep, if we replace the old "k with gear" it must be a really good one


The VDG is clearly of the opinion that we have to create a clear visual branding 
for Plasma which is distinct from the KDE brand, and a key element of that has 
to be Plasma's logo.


Therefore now the question is: Can the Plasma team identify itself with the 
current Plasma logo, or do you feel it still has to be improved?


What we certainly do not want is the Plasma team trying to hide away the logo 
because you don't really like it. So either you like it and make it a key 
element in Plasma (by using it e.g. for the launcher and the boot splash), or 
you tell us what you don't like about it so we can improve it.


Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Jens Reuterberg]

As the one responsible for the logo work (since Uri who made that and other 
bits is in the VDG) I should probably shime in here.

The three dots and the arrow is simply because of the connections to the K 
logo. The reasoning for it is to make it flexible (do note that we came in 
blind into this, so creating something for the future, when the future wasn't 
clear was simply a bit tricky)

What that means is that it needs to be distinguishable from the K logo (since 
that was one of the brief points we where given: "Plasma != KDE" while still 
being reminiscent of that). Also it needs to be so simplistic and "empty" as 
it possibly can to be able to be filled with meaning at a later point depending 
on needs.
It has to be recognizable so it had to be unique enough that you could take 
parts and shapes of it and reuse them while still being easily connected to 
Plasma. The arrow and the three dots where in my professional opinion the best 
choice as a good mix between "recognizable while still being abstract", 
"looking sorta like the K but not so it connects up to the K" and "flexible"

What IS relevant though is that since our brand presence isn't all that grand 
(web presence is still stuck on KDE 4.x fortt example) the usage of it simply 
isn't there yet and the possability to push it out isn't as much available. 

So what I think is: We should push for that logo more, instead of slapping 
together something new... again... still following that brief (OR we get 
people to give us a NEW brief). We do need to be pushier and change our 
webpresence quicker, be more aggressive in our communication etc. 

Also "New challenge: Show off the flexibility of the Plasma logo and use it in 
a way  that Dirk will like and fall in love with it" - Challenge accepted. :)

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 09:10:06 CET Dirk Hohndel wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 05:48:40PM +0100, Marco Martin wrote:
> > On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote:
> > > If you mean this one?
> > > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
> > > Sure.
> > > 
> > > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
> > > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.
> > 
> > the current one is more like
> > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/
> > s1600/plasma-5-banner.png
> As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And
> really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on
> ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of
> my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced
> dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to
> me.
> 
> And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see a
> consistent brand identity at all. The logo you mention here isn't even on
> that site.
> 
> My 2¢ would be to come up with a strong logo that is simple and provides a
> good connection to Plasma as a brand and then use that consistently
> everywhere. But you first need the artwork.
> 
> /D
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Martin Graesslin]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 4:59:18 PM CET Marco Martin wrote:
> Hi all,
> This is just an idea: since our branding of the desktop offer as "Plasma"
> seems to start to work, but still needs work, one of the first points that
> come to mind speaking about branding is the logo.
> 
> What I'm proposing is to change the K logo on start menus and ksplash (and
> any other place where it makes sense, being plymouth, sddm, various docs
> and websites around..) with the Plasma logo, to make more marketable as a
> stand alone product what our desktop offer is
> Either the current Plasma logo or whatever new shiny logo the VDG comes up
> with if they feel the current one isn't up to scratch.
> I had doubts about this in the past as the K logo is the trademarked one,
> but I'm starting to get convinced the time has come ;)
> 
> Opinions? Comments?

I feel the same. I had concerns about it in the past but now I'm supportive to 
the idea.

So +1

Cheers
Martin



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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Martin Klapetek]

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Ivan Čukić  wrote:

>
> @Offtopic: What happened to kde.org revamp?
>

>From what I understood, the neon website is supposed to be a proving ground
for the new kde.org.

Cheers
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Marco Martin]

On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote:
> If you mean this one?
> https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
> Sure.
> 
> Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
> branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.

the problem is that the current branding is quite broken.
the problem is going the last mile to make people stop saying "I use KDE" :p

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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[kainz.a]

it's funny that you discuss about branding and nobody of the plasma dev's
know HIS logo.

so the discussion should not be which logo and why nobody knows the plasma
brand. the question should be we need a brand and therefore we need logos
for defined sizes, banners, community stuff (t-shirt,...) and we need if
for the 5.6 release

so community and vdg come with examples now.

but we can also discuss why nobody don't know the plasma brand. the dev's
don't know there brand to.

cheers
Andreas
Am 03.02.2016 18:52 schrieb "Marco Martin" :

> On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote:
> > If you mean this one?
> > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
> > Sure.
> >
> > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
> > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.
>
> the problem is that the current branding is quite broken.
> the problem is going the last mile to make people stop saying "I use KDE"
> :p
>
> --
> Marco Martin
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Dirk Hohndel]

On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 05:48:40PM +0100, Marco Martin wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote:
> > If you mean this one?
> > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
> > Sure.
> > 
> > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
> > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.
> 
> the current one is more like
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/s1600/plasma-5-banner.png

As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And
really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on
ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of
my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced
dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to
me.

And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see a
consistent brand identity at all. The logo you mention here isn't even on
that site.

My 2¢ would be to come up with a strong logo that is simple and provides a
good connection to Plasma as a brand and then use that consistently
everywhere. But you first need the artwork.

/D
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

I had wanted to CC the VDG list, but I used the wrong address. Now with the 
correct one.

On Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2016 18:16:01 CET Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2016 16:24:10 CET David Edmundson wrote:
 > If you mean this one?
 > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
 > Sure.
 
 No, not that one.
 That one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/
 KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png/300px-KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png
 
> Not always with the name, of course.
 
 > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
 > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.
 
 We are currently using the KDE logo with the Plasma brand. This is broken
 branding. If we are to establish Plasma as a brand, we need to use the
 Plasma logo.
 If we keep using the community instead of the product logo all over Plasma,
 we can never break the "KDE = the desktop" misconception.
 
 And I'm pretty sure people will still recognize that they're using the same
 workspace as shown in tutorials even if the logo in the bottom-left corner
 is different.
 
 The VDG is really clear that this is our collective advice (I've CCed the
 VDG list so anybody who objects to that could speak up).



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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Ivan Čukić]

> If you mean this one?
> https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
> Sure.

This one I'm really against. Every time someone posts it (especially
the colured version), a fairy dies. For those of you that do not
believe in fairies, just imagine kittens dying. :)

> Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
> branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.

> the current one is more like
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/s1600/plasma-5-banner.png

This one is more pleasant on the eyes, but I share David's concerns.

Cheers,
Ivan
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2016 16:24:10 CET David Edmundson wrote:
> If you mean this one?
> https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
> Sure.

No, not that one. 
That one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/
KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png/300px-KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png

Not always with the name, of course.

> Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
> branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.

We are currently using the KDE logo with the Plasma brand. This is broken 
branding. If we are to establish Plasma as a brand, we need to use the Plasma 
logo.
If we keep using the community instead of the product logo all over Plasma, we 
can never break the "KDE = the desktop" misconception.

And I'm pretty sure people will still recognize that they're using the same 
workspace as shown in tutorials even if the logo in the bottom-left corner is 
different.

The VDG is really clear that this is our collective advice (I've CCed the VDG 
list so anybody who objects to that could speak up).

Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Marco Martin]

On Wednesday 03 February 2016 09:10:06 Dirk Hohndel wrote:
> > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/
> > s1600/plasma-5-banner.png
> As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And
> really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on

 "outside" perspective that makes it very, very valuable.

> ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of
> my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced
> dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to
> me.

yep, if we replace the old "k with gear" it must be a really good one

> And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see a
> consistent brand identity at all. The logo you mention here isn't even on
> that site.
> 
> My 2¢ would be to come up with a strong logo that is simple and provides a
> good connection to Plasma as a brand and then use that consistently
> everywhere. But you first need the artwork.

yep, you identified another important thing.. our web presence situation is 
quite ugh, outdated :/


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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Ivan Čukić]

> And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see

UGH, that *still* shows plasma 4.x :D

Cheers,
Ivan

@Offtopic: What happened to kde.org revamp?
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[kainz.a]

2016-02-03 19:25 GMT+01:00 Ivan Čukić :

> p.s. Mind that when people say 'I use KDE', they usually think they
> are using Plasma, Dolphin, KTp, Okular, Konsole, etc. One of the
> /problems/ is that Linux users are spoilt, and started to consider all
> the default applications as a part of the operating system - from the
> desktop, to music players and office suites. So, having KDE logo
> instead of Plasma logo is not that wrong IMO.
>
>
so the easy way would say plasma is part of KDE (which is "only" the
community but nobody knows it) and in most distros the branding was
replaced by there branding.

So we only have to say the users plasma is part of KDE. oh now. the users
already know's that he/she use KDE. everything done. It's a little bit
sarcastic but it the end I don't have a problem to use the KDE desktop.

So are you (plasma mailing list member) part of KDE? YES
Do you develop the KDE Desktop or are you a developer of Plasma?
Are you proud to develop plasma as part of the KDE Community and want to
say I'm part of Plasma, than we need a rebrand. And rebrand mean you have
to define your requirements (what do you need, icons, logo, which sizes,
...)

+1 for Plasma brand
+ a for KDE brand

cheers

Andreas Kainz
Member of the VDG

Is VDG part of plasma or KDE?
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Marco Martin]

On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote:
> If you mean this one?
> https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
> Sure.
> 
> Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
> branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.
> 
> David

the current one is more like
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/s1600/plasma-5-banner.png

-- 
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Ivan Čukić]

@Marco
> the problem is going the last mile to make people stop
> saying "I use KDE" :p

I'm not sure this warrants killing what we have now. As someone
mentioned before, we are not the only ones using a community/company
logo for this.

I would like a nicer KDE logo (like Gnome people did back in the day -
reshaped the foot to look saner... though, there is not much one can
do with a gear :) ), but that is another story.


@Kainz
> nobody of the plasma dev's know HIS logo.

"nobody" is a bit misguiding - most of us knew the .:> logo but I get
your point. :)


@Martin
> From what I understood, the neon website is supposed to be a proving
> ground for the new kde.org.

Thanks for the info - it looks quite nice.

Cheerio,
Ivan

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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[Ivan Čukić]

p.s. Mind that when people say 'I use KDE', they usually think they
are using Plasma, Dolphin, KTp, Okular, Konsole, etc. One of the
/problems/ is that Linux users are spoilt, and started to consider all
the default applications as a part of the operating system - from the
desktop, to music players and office suites. So, having KDE logo
instead of Plasma logo is not that wrong IMO.

Cheerio,
Ivan

--
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Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo

[David Edmundson]

If you mean this one?
https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png
Sure.

Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current
branding, but all screenshot based tutorials.

David
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