Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 10:58:09 Mark wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org wrote: Le Tuesday 12 February 2013 23:55:39 Mark a écrit : On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 8:06 PM, Shaun Reich sre...@kde.org wrote: On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: Technical implementation aside: I think that makes absolute sense: * one vd by default * do not show pager for one vd * show pager if user uses more vds i agree that showing the pager only for on vd is a bit weird. but the issue i'd like to address is that if you make the pager invisible and not taking up space, then when the user is browsing the widget explorer seeing what he can add to the panel, he tries to add the pager widget, wondering what that does. but no feedback is given for adding it, and so they add it 10 more times. as mentioned in the rb, i've personally witnessed this happen, and this seems to confuse people, because they have no idea they need to go into system settings and set the virtual desktop to 1. if it said so/told them, i imagine that would be fine as well. Focus on technical implementation: I don't care much and cannot judge it, but my personal vote would be to just drop the pager from the default setup. I agree on this, since I don't see virtual desktops being used by people other than power users. After all, we've got activities and we should be focusing/refining on that for the majority of our users. i think that if we remove it from the default setup, we don't have to worry about hiding the pager contents in the 1 vd scenario at all. Why are you folks discarding my usecase completely? Not even one comment on it. My usecase is very valid, i'm having it right now as i type this mail. What Shaun and Martin suggest would actually fix your problem. If the pager is not in the default setup, then there is no need to hide it when only one vd is there, so you would be able to add the widget to your panel and see your windows. That would not fix it at all. It would still show up empty with just one VD if i choose to add it. I think what Aurélien meant is that we could change the behavior of pager again once it is not part of the default setup -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 11:24:06 Mark wrote: When i brought this issue up in RB and moved it to this list i was actually expecting a reply like: Ohh, we introduced a new pager in 4.10 that occupies space without putting anything in it by default. Lets fix that asap. But there is nothing like that. Like you guys just don't see it as an issue.. Why is that? I'd say because it is not a regression. It already used to be like that. And if I have to decide between an empty widget and a pager with one desktop I go for the empty widget. Btw. it's pretty much a non-issue for our users as most distributions think that they need to adjust the defaults for virtual desktops. IIRC: * Kubuntu: 2 * OpenSUSE: 4 -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 11:40:15 Marco Martin wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013, Mark wrote: That would probably be the best way i guess. But then we still have an empty taskbar area occupied by the pager during the 4.10 cycle. I can hardly imagine that to be the intention? It's just a simple QML one liner.. If you want i can commit the change (as posted a few posts back) to 4.10.. When i brought this issue up in RB and moved it to this list i was actually expecting a reply like: Ohh, we introduced a new pager in 4.10 that occupies space without putting anything in it by default. Lets fix that asap. But there is nothing like that. Like you guys just don't see it as an issue.. Why is that? i wouldn't be against not shipping the pager by default. there is just one thing that doesn't sound about right. should also be easy to go back to multiple desktop, and if the pager is not there, then the user can easiuly increase the number of desktops in systemsettings, but then doesn't get any pager and looks like setting that option didn't have any effects (i can already sense bug reports for that :p) what about executing a java script to add the pager if it increases? Also the KCM should get a hint that Ctrl+F8 opens the desktop grid ;-) -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 11:24:06 Mark wrote: When i brought this issue up in RB and moved it to this list i was actually expecting a reply like: Ohh, we introduced a new pager in 4.10 that occupies space without putting anything in it by default. Lets fix that asap. But there is nothing like that. Like you guys just don't see it as an issue.. Why is that? I'd say because it is not a regression. It already used to be like that. And if I have to decide between an empty widget and a pager with one desktop I go for the empty widget. Btw. it's pretty much a non-issue for our users as most distributions think that they need to adjust the defaults for virtual desktops. IIRC: * Kubuntu: 2 * OpenSUSE: 4 You where of the strong defaults right? Strong defaults are upstream (which is KDE itself) not the distributions that ship it (and modify it). ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 06:17:45 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: Since the virtual desktop kcm is already shown from within the pager applet configuration dialog, maybe it can simply be removed from systemsettings? erm no, I'm using virtual desktops but not a pager and the KCM offers more than pager related stuff, like shortcuts for switching between VDs and so on. -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:23:41 +0100, Martin Gräßlin wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 06:17:45 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: Since the virtual desktop kcm is already shown from within the pager applet configuration dialog, maybe it can simply be removed from systemsettings? erm no, I'm using virtual desktops but not a pager This sounds like an advanced-user setup. I would expect advanced users would know how to either run the kcm with kcmshell or run the pager applet with `plasma-windowed pager`. Either that, or one could show a KMessageWidget in the KCM if there are no pager applet, with a button offering to add one (assuming the KCM can do this) and the KCM offers more than pager related stuff, like shortcuts for switching between VDs and so on. Are you sure about that? It really uses the same KCM: there is a tab to define keyboard shortcuts in the applet config. Aurélien ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 06:43:47 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:23:41 +0100, Martin Gräßlin wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 06:17:45 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: Since the virtual desktop kcm is already shown from within the pager applet configuration dialog, maybe it can simply be removed from systemsettings? erm no, I'm using virtual desktops but not a pager This sounds like an advanced-user setup. I would expect advanced users would know how to either run the kcm with kcmshell or run the pager applet with `plasma-windowed pager`. Actually I see the pager as a relict from the time when we did not have desktop grid. It's not really an advanced user setup, but I just find the pager completely useless. I had had the pager quite long and dropped it when I realized that I don't use it, because I only use desktop grid. Either that, or one could show a KMessageWidget in the KCM if there are no pager applet, with a button offering to add one (assuming the KCM can do this) sounds also fine. and the KCM offers more than pager related stuff, like shortcuts for switching between VDs and so on. Are you sure about that? It really uses the same KCM: there is a tab to define keyboard shortcuts in the applet config. yes I wrote (part of) the KCM :-) -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:44:31 +0100, Martin Gräßlin wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 06:43:47 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:23:41 +0100, Martin Gräßlin wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 06:17:45 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: Since the virtual desktop kcm is already shown from within the pager applet configuration dialog, maybe it can simply be removed from systemsettings? erm no, I'm using virtual desktops but not a pager This sounds like an advanced-user setup. I would expect advanced users would know how to either run the kcm with kcmshell or run the pager applet with `plasma-windowed pager`. Actually I see the pager as a relict from the time when we did not have desktop grid. It's not really an advanced user setup, but I just find the pager completely useless. I had had the pager quite long and dropped it when I realized that I don't use it, because I only use desktop grid. For what its worth, my use of the pager applet is as an indicator of which desktop I am on. I switch with shortcuts, but I like to glance at the applet to know where I am. Either that, or one could show a KMessageWidget in the KCM if there are no pager applet, with a button offering to add one (assuming the KCM can do this) sounds also fine. and the KCM offers more than pager related stuff, like shortcuts for switching between VDs and so on. Are you sure about that? It really uses the same KCM: there is a tab to define keyboard shortcuts in the applet config. yes I wrote (part of) the KCM :-) Then your KCM must be the one which shows up when you configure virtual desktops from the applet. Try this: - open the applet config dialog - go to Virtual Desktops page - open Systemsettings - go to Workspace Behavior - go to Virtual Desktops page You should get a message saying: This configuration section is already opened in Plasma Desktop Shell -- Martin Gräßlin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 13:50:08 Mark wrote: That's the intention and that hasn't changed. Apparently most of you seem to disagree here. Apparently i'm the only one that dislikes having an empty space shown by default.. to complement what Aurelien just wrote: you need to step aside from your own use case to properly discuss it. It makes you blind to see that there are many ways to get to what you need. So far you only focus on what you proposed to change. I looked to the problem not from your perspective but from the global view. Why is the pager implemented that way? Is that a valid use case? Is the use case correctly implemented or are there better ways to implement the use case? This lead for me to: let's remove the pager in the default setup. -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 13:50:08 Mark wrote: That's the intention and that hasn't changed. Apparently most of you seem to disagree here. Apparently i'm the only one that dislikes having an empty space shown by default.. to complement what Aurelien just wrote: you need to step aside from your own use case to properly discuss it. It makes you blind to see that there are many ways to get to what you need. So far you only focus on what you proposed to change. I looked to the problem not from your perspective but from the global view. Why is the pager implemented that way? Is that a valid use case? Is the use case correctly implemented or are there better ways to implement the use case? This lead for me to: let's remove the pager in the default setup. I know and i did that :) The current pager is perfect if you have one monitor or perhaps even two since you can make a quite safe assumption that both monitors are on thus having a pager with one VD makes no sense. So yes, i took that step back and fully agree with how it's currently implemented based on that step. However, modern day desktops can have more displays attached then 1 or 2 and those displays don't have to be monitors. That's something to also consider and i'm doing exactly that. I think the current pager lacks that consideration. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 14:29:12 Mark wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 13:50:08 Mark wrote: That's the intention and that hasn't changed. Apparently most of you seem to disagree here. Apparently i'm the only one that dislikes having an empty space shown by default.. to complement what Aurelien just wrote: you need to step aside from your own use case to properly discuss it. It makes you blind to see that there are many ways to get to what you need. So far you only focus on what you proposed to change. I looked to the problem not from your perspective but from the global view. Why is the pager implemented that way? Is that a valid use case? Is the use case correctly implemented or are there better ways to implement the use case? This lead for me to: let's remove the pager in the default setup. I know and i did that :) The current pager is perfect if you have one monitor or perhaps even two since you can make a quite safe assumption that both monitors are on thus having a pager with one VD makes no sense. So yes, i took that step back and fully agree with how it's currently implemented based on that step. However, modern day desktops can have more displays attached then 1 or 2 and those displays don't have to be monitors. That's something to also consider and i'm doing exactly that. I think the current pager lacks that consideration. no it doesn't. See my very first answer to this thread. Your workflow is a workaround to limitations in multi screen handling. KWin should not put windows on a screen which is not useable (doesn't matter whether turned off or disconnected). It shouldn't put it there. Full stop! If it does put it there we need to fix it. This means your workaround as a workflow is irrelevant as we need to fix the bug, not ensure workarounds work. -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 14:29:12 Mark wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 13:50:08 Mark wrote: That's the intention and that hasn't changed. Apparently most of you seem to disagree here. Apparently i'm the only one that dislikes having an empty space shown by default.. to complement what Aurelien just wrote: you need to step aside from your own use case to properly discuss it. It makes you blind to see that there are many ways to get to what you need. So far you only focus on what you proposed to change. I looked to the problem not from your perspective but from the global view. Why is the pager implemented that way? Is that a valid use case? Is the use case correctly implemented or are there better ways to implement the use case? This lead for me to: let's remove the pager in the default setup. I know and i did that :) The current pager is perfect if you have one monitor or perhaps even two since you can make a quite safe assumption that both monitors are on thus having a pager with one VD makes no sense. So yes, i took that step back and fully agree with how it's currently implemented based on that step. However, modern day desktops can have more displays attached then 1 or 2 and those displays don't have to be monitors. That's something to also consider and i'm doing exactly that. I think the current pager lacks that consideration. no it doesn't. See my very first answer to this thread. Your workflow is a workaround to limitations in multi screen handling. KWin should not put windows on a screen which is not useable (doesn't matter whether turned off or disconnected). It shouldn't put it there. Full stop! If it does put it there we need to fix it. This means your workaround as a workflow is irrelevant as we need to fix the bug, not ensure workarounds work. Right, clear. Could you fix windows up as well? ;-) Anyway, if you need any information regarding that, please just ask. I have the setup at home and i can easily compile any patches you have for me. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 15:24:49 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: but there's a pragmatic solution: hide the fucking thing when there is only one vd. Have you seen Aurelien's suggestion of adding a button to the KCM where one changes the number of virtual desktops to add the pager to the setting? This should be quite a pragmatic solution, too (I don't mind adding that code to the KCM as it already controls other Plasma workspace settings). -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 16:04:03 Marco Martin wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013, Martin Gräßlin wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 15:24:49 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: but there's a pragmatic solution: hide the fucking thing when there is only one vd. Have you seen Aurelien's suggestion of adding a button to the KCM where one changes the number of virtual desktops to add the pager to the setting? This should be quite a pragmatic solution, too (I don't mind adding that code to the KCM as it already controls other Plasma workspace settings). this, i guess goes into the category of event based scripting system that may open a very big can of worms... is it really? Run a script from KCM to look whether there is a panel with a pager. If not add the button. If user clicks it, run a script to add the pager to a panel. Doesn't sound so complex to me and also not really event driven -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 15:58:15 Mark wrote: Anyway, if you need any information regarding that, please just ask. I have the setup at home and i can easily compile any patches you have for me. Best would be to try whether using KScreen improves the situation. If not get in contact with Alex so that KScreen handles the case correctly. -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 15:58:15 Mark wrote: Anyway, if you need any information regarding that, please just ask. I have the setup at home and i can easily compile any patches you have for me. Best would be to try whether using KScreen improves the situation. If not get in contact with Alex so that KScreen handles the case correctly. Will do as soon as i get home. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 15:58:15 Mark wrote: Anyway, if you need any information regarding that, please just ask. I have the setup at home and i can easily compile any patches you have for me. Best would be to try whether using KScreen improves the situation. If not get in contact with Alex so that KScreen handles the case correctly. I just tested this. While KScreen is truly a marvelous app, it doesn't fix the issue. My testcase: 1. Open dolphin 2. Drag it to the third screen 3. Close it (and turn the screen off) 4. Open dolphin again Now it opens on the third screen so you see absolutely nothing. If you also happen to have your taskbar set to only show the tasks running on your current screen then you just don't see dolphin at all. Like it swam away ;) Adding Alex to CC, perhaps he knows a randr trick to prevent windows from opening on monitors that are attached but powered off. Though i think the best bet here would be KWin. I am curious though, how can you even detect if a monitor is powered on? Regards, Mark ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Wednesday 13 February 2013 15:58:15 Mark wrote: Anyway, if you need any information regarding that, please just ask. I have the setup at home and i can easily compile any patches you have for me. Best would be to try whether using KScreen improves the situation. If not get in contact with Alex so that KScreen handles the case correctly. I just tested this. While KScreen is truly a marvelous app, it doesn't fix the issue. My testcase: 1. Open dolphin 2. Drag it to the third screen 3. Close it (and turn the screen off) 4. Open dolphin again Now it opens on the third screen so you see absolutely nothing. If you also happen to have your taskbar set to only show the tasks running on your current screen then you just don't see dolphin at all. Like it swam away ;) Adding Alex to CC, perhaps he knows a randr trick to prevent windows from opening on monitors that are attached but powered off. Though i think the best bet here would be KWin. I am curious though, how can you even detect if a monitor is powered on? Regards, Mark Lol, i just now discover that i not only typed pager wrong in the title, but also completely misspelled it.. I'm very sorry for that. Lets continue in the other pager thread started by Rick. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Tuesday 12 February 2013 23:55:39 Mark wrote: Why are you folks discarding my usecase completely? Not even one comment on it. My usecase is very valid, i'm having it right now as i type this mail. it's not a usecase, it's a workaround for a bug. Windows should never ever ever be opened on a disconnected screen. Once KScreen is fully integrated that will hopefully not happen any more. -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: QML Placces design discussion
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Tuesday 12 February 2013 23:55:39 Mark wrote: Why are you folks discarding my usecase completely? Not even one comment on it. My usecase is very valid, i'm having it right now as i type this mail. it's not a usecase, it's a workaround for a bug. Windows should never ever ever be opened on a disconnected screen. Once KScreen is fully integrated that will hopefully not happen any more. disconnected != powered down I keep the beamer connected all the time. How this works on windows kinda depends on AMD and NVidia AMD + Windows = if you power down the beamer it also disconnects it in some way. As in when you look at the screen resolution you won't find any trace of it. NVidia + Windows = if you power down the beamer it stays connected. When you look at the screen resolution you can see the beamer as if it where powered on. I've had both (AMD and NVidia) and i can say that the AMD alternative is extremely unstable. Even under windows. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
